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I love this guy. I just ordered a couple of his books. Some highlights from this video:




~ If you're born in the wrong part of the world, then sorry, you just missed the correct revelation to get to heaven.

~ Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice and when put in different contexts makes it look like the beliefs of a lunatic.

~ Serial killers can go to heaven after a life of evil brutality just by saying a few words on death row.

~ God is praised with some activities, but does he get the blame for atrocities? No, it's said that he's "mysterious."

~ When Elves die in The Lord of the Rings they can be reborn in Middle Earth. lol

~ The God of the Bible is morally corrupt, but because it's declared that "He's God," it doesn't matter what he does or says, it's automatically good because he's God.

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These are a lot of the same issues I bring up with Religion. I don't know how an omnipotent, all loving God could allow the suffering seen on a daily basis. Although, if we take the Bible literally, when God does get fed up with our sin, he just kills nearly everyone and everything on the planet.

To me the biggest crock of sh!t is the lie of "heaven" and "hell" (and of course other stuff like "purgatory" and indulgences).

Could there ever be a more obvious and obnoxious means of taking advantage of and controlling the gullible and weak minded?

You'd think a God that wasn't a piece of utter shit wouldn't make it so you can miss out on heaven based on where you are born.

Sounds like a horrible entity that needs to be snuffed out of existence.

And the issue of Biblical morality is significantly questionable...

"Thou shalt not have any gods before me"? Really? This God is very jealous and has a big ego. So much for being without sin. "Thou shalt not kill" is a good idea, but there are definitely some obsolete laws in the 10 Commandments like "Remembering the Sabbath" and "Taking the Lord's name in vain." And no law against slavery? Oh yeah, that's right, the Bible condones slavery and killing homosexuals...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x1BYl4XassM/hqdefault.jpg

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
To me the biggest crock of sh!t is the lie of "heaven" and "hell" (and of course other stuff like "purgatory" and indulgences).

Could there ever be a more obvious and obnoxious means of taking advantage of and controlling the gullible and weak minded?

It's the most effective tool for keeping people in line.

Originally posted by Surtur
You'd think a God that wasn't a piece of utter shit wouldn't make it so you can miss out on heaven based on where you are born.

Sounds like a horrible entity that needs to be snuffed out of existence.

Well, back when it was written, they probably didn't think about the sheer number of people that could be born without the knowledge of their God. God, being the all-knowing entity that he is, probably had the foresight though.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And the issue of Biblical morality is significantly questionable...

"Thou shalt not have any gods before me"? Really? This God is very jealous and has a big ego. So much for being without sin. "Thou shalt not kill" is a good idea, but there are definitely some obsolete laws in the 10 Commandments like "Remembering the Sabbath" and "Taking the Lord's name in vain." And no law against slavery? Oh yeah, that's right, the Bible condones slavery and killing homosexuals...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x1BYl4XassM/hqdefault.jpg

One time I knew a 13 yr. old who got jealous his gf tutored some other 13 yr. old boy.

If the emotion is fit for 13 yr. olds then why not God?

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And the issue of Biblical morality is significantly questionable...

"Thou shalt not have any gods before me"? Really? This God is very jealous and has a big ego. So much for being without sin. "Thou shalt not kill" is a good idea, but there are definitely some obsolete laws in the 10 Commandments like "Remembering the Sabbath" and "Taking the Lord's name in vain." And no law against slavery? Oh yeah, that's right, the Bible condones slavery and killing homosexuals...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x1BYl4XassM/hqdefault.jpg

I've always thought, that for such a perfect being, he sure does act a lot like us flawed humans. No false gods before me reeks of Narcissism and pride.

I've started reading this book and it's... amazing. This guy is so eloquent and intelligent and well-thought-out...

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2014/08/oR2exdo.jpg

I could listen to him speak all day long. I think he has a Podcast that I'm going to start listening to also.

I've also ordered these two books...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5113lJZJQuL._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Letter_to_a_Christian_Nation.jpg

And I want to get this one...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Cvr9781439171226_9781439171226_hr.jpg/200px-Cvr9781439171226_9781439171226_hr.jpg

I love this guy...

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Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I've started reading this book and it's... amazing. This guy is so eloquent and intelligent and well-thought-out...

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2014/08/oR2exdo.jpg

I could listen to him speak all day long. I think he has a Podcast that I'm going to start listening to also.

I've also ordered these two books...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5113lJZJQuL._SX326_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Letter_to_a_Christian_Nation.jpg

And I want to get this one...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Cvr9781439171226_9781439171226_hr.jpg/200px-Cvr9781439171226_9781439171226_hr.jpg
The podcast is "waking up with Sam Harris" I think. It's good, but Harris' calm tone works much better when he has someone to debate. Preferably someone with a temper.

http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/sam_harris.htm

This doesn't address the question but here are some 'rebuttals' to Sam Harris' work

When talking about religions like Christianity or Islam you need to be specific, this is a figurative slaughtering of Christians. The guy didn't..rain meteors down on a city, only a crazed super villain would do that.

One time I was watching the Justice League cartoon and the villains were evil Atlanteans and they wanted to kill people by flooding the entire world. What kind of crazy a-hole would ever think of something that horrific?

Originally posted by SamZED
The podcast is "waking up with Sam Harris" I think. It's good, but Harris' calm tone works much better when he has someone to debate. Preferably someone with a temper.

Yeah, he's great in debates. So calm and collected. Even without his sound reasoning he would win debates simply with his demeanor. He has the patience and compassion of a true God... check out this, these clowns, The Young Turks, edited and completely misrepresented his views and he STILL is calm and compassionate. But they are seriously guilty of slander...

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Originally posted by chingchangwalla
http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/sam_harris.htm

This doesn't address the question but here are some 'rebuttals' to Sam Harris' work

Doesn't address what question? (I can't get to the link at work)

I have yet to find any reasonable rebuttals to his views, but I'll certainly take a look at the link when I can. Whether you think he's right or not, he is at least starting conversations about this stuff, which I think is all he is trying to do. Because conversation is what the situation needs to resolve itself. I listened to this old NPR program and it's a really, really good conversation...

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Him trouncing Cenk from TYT in a debate is hilarious as well.

Originally posted by Surtur
Him trouncing Cenk from TYT in a debate is hilarious as well.

link pliss??

This?

*eats popcorn and stares intently*

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Yeah that is it, Cenk really thinks he can keep up in that video, but he can't.

You will notice he is mostly about feelings, Harris is mostly about facts.

Sam almost has to explain this stuff to Cenk as if he is a child. He is also way way more patient with Cenk than I think most people would have been.

Originally posted by Surtur
Sam almost has to explain this stuff to Cenk as if he is a child. He is also way way more patient with Cenk than I think most people would have been.

Yeah, Sam is seriously my new favorite person in the world. His patience, knowledge, and complete lack of any condescension is nothing short of godlike. The way he conducts himself in debates is truly commendable.

I think some of the comments on that video sum it up pretty well...



I haven't finished watching the video yet, but when Cent didn't understand the difference in probability between "Thinking Jesus is coming back" and "Thinking Jesus is coming back to " I was truly astonished. I don't have a very good understanding of probability, but that's a pretty simple concept to me.

I am just amazed TYT have lasted this long. I want to know what kind of sorcery they used to keep themselves afloat.

Originally posted by Surtur
I am just amazed TYT have lasted this long. I want to know what kind of sorcery they used to keep themselves afloat.
George Soros money

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
George Soros money

In other words: the blackest of all magicks. Yep, this called for a magick with a K. It is that dastardly.

Ben Carson: proof you can be a surgeon without being a scientist. Owned by Sam Harris.

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"It's even more courageous to do it on twitter". Holy shit get this man a beer.

Originally posted by Surtur
"It's even more courageous to do it on twitter". Holy shit get this man a beer.

I think I had seen most of that interview before. Sam schooled that dude pretty hardcore and he shows no signs of bigotry or defamation as he is accused of, just intelligent criticism.

This is perhaps a bit off topic, but it's related to Ben Carson being a scientist who doesn't believe in evolution. This guy's "Debunking Creationists" videos are excellent...

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Ben Carson is also the guy who more or less tried to claim he cured his cancer with "alternative medicine" lol. You would think they wouldn't let someone doctor anymore if they don't seem to believe in things like evolution and yet believe in magical cancer cures.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I love this guy. I just ordered a couple of his books. Some highlights from this video:




~ If you're born in the wrong part of the world, then sorry, you just missed the correct revelation to get to heaven.

~ Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice and when put in different contexts makes it look like the beliefs of a lunatic.

~ Serial killers can go to heaven after a life of evil brutality just by saying a few words on death row.

~ God is praised with some activities, but does he get the blame for atrocities? No, it's said that he's "mysterious."

~ When Elves die in The Lord of the Rings they can be reborn in Middle Earth. lol

~ The God of the Bible is morally corrupt, but because it's declared that "He's God," it doesn't matter what he does or says, it's automatically good because he's God.


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William Lane Craig slaughters Sam Harris. /thread

Originally posted by Stigma
cDQzijl6El4
William Lane Craig slaughters Sam Harris. /thread
Oh I love that guy's website.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Oh I love that guy's website.


He dismantles Harris in just under 9 minutes. Highly recommended.

He's implying that Harris doesn't understand non-moral uses of the word "good" and "bad." Ridiculous. The rest is a bunch of abstract mumbo-jumbo that didn't make any sense to me. I haven't seen Harris' side of the argument, so I don't know if he was representing his claims accurately. I also haven't read The Moral Landscape yet.

But I feel like in order to say that there is "objective morality" you have to prove the existence of God (and provide better evidence than The Bible says he exists or the Quran says he exists). The truth is there is no God to take moral stances other than our own brains. If there is a Supreme Ruler of the Universe then we should go back to having monarchies because that is after all how the universe is run. The point is democracy is an improvement over monarchy, so therefore democratic morality is the only way to go.

Anyone still convinced that we as humans get our morality from the Bible or some other "holy book," needs to read a chapter or two out of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I think it's Chapter 6. He makes quite an obvious case for the fact that we definitely do not derive our morals from the Bible (in particular). It's a really good chapter. I'll summarize a quotation he uses in the book...

Basically the Bible is perfect instruction for "ingroup morality," that seems more interested in genocide, enslavement, and world domination. And this is not why the Bible is evil, necessarily. No book is evil just because it seems to propagate murder, cruelty, and rape. Plenty of other books do that, like the Iliad, Icelandic Sagas, etc. But for some reason the Bible is sold to us as a moral instruction book by which we should pattern our lives. And it is the world's all-time best seller.

It's disturbing to hear a Christian say that if it turned out God wasn't real then life is utterly meaningless.

Bill O Reilly was espousing an idea like that. Then again he also thought that the tides are controlled by magic.

There are even crazy people who have hinted they would basically become rapists and murderers if they found out there was no God. Though those are a small minority.

Originally posted by Surtur
There are even crazy people who have hinted they would basically become rapists and murderers if they found out there was no God. Though those are a small minority.

The only way I know how not to abuse, murder, and rape others is because an imaginary father figure in the sky is telling me not to. People with very deep convictions, obviously. One would think that by God's example in the Bible that he would encourage such behavior by his existence, and his non-existence would discourage such behavior. And one point that Dawkins brings up is that even stuff like the 10 Commandments were more of an in-group morality. It wasn't necessarily disallowed to do those things to others outside the group.

Originally posted by Surtur
It's disturbing to hear a Christian say that if it turned out God wasn't real then life is utterly meaningless.

Bill O Reilly was espousing an idea like that. Then again he also thought that the tides are controlled by magic.

...

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
But I feel like in order to say that there is "objective morality" you have to prove the existence of God (and provide better evidence than The Bible says he exists or the Quran says he exists). The truth is there is no God to take moral stances other than our own brains. If there is a Supreme Ruler of the Universe then we should go back to having monarchies because that is after all how the universe is run. The point is democracy is an improvement over monarchy, so therefore democratic morality is the only way to go.

I like the style of the argument, it's of a rare aesthetical beauty, though the validity of the claim is left to the beholder.

For example, we can consider that democracy works because we have an statistical value filthered out by several generations on education and systematical improvements. Statistics work on a framework where things can be compared and are relative. God being absolute (by some definitions) throws that out of the window. Let alone that the imperfection of our morality compared to a night omniscient being schews the odds terribly when it comes to democracy vs monarchy.

The comparison also undermines the problem of representation. Yes, democracy is a system but ultimately its fate is decided by the quality of representation you can get on your ruler. Because decisions are only made by individuals and not systems, hence there is always someone at the top, guiding and making actual decisions. Translating this issue towards morality only goes to probe why morality is so complex and culturally based.

Why are Atheists such whiney A-Holes all the time?

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Why are Atheists such whiney A-Holes all the time?

It's not all of them, but I expect they are in a bad mood because of the power religion wields in this country(and the world).

Originally posted by Bentley
I like the style of the argument, it's of a rare aesthetical beauty, though the validity of the claim is left to the beholder.

For example, we can consider that democracy works because we have an statistical value filthered out by several generations on education and systematical improvements. Statistics work on a framework where things can be compared and are relative. God being absolute (by some definitions) throws that out of the window. Let alone that the imperfection of our morality compared to a night omniscient being schews the odds terribly when it comes to democracy vs monarchy.

The comparison also undermines the problem of representation. Yes, democracy is a system but ultimately its fate is decided by the quality of representation you can get on your ruler. Because decisions are only made by individuals and not systems, hence there is always someone at the top, guiding and making actual decisions. Translating this issue towards morality only goes to probe why morality is so complex and culturally based.

I have no idea what statistics has to do with anything. Sorry, none of that resonates at all with me.

The simple fact remains that our "holy books" that claim to be from God contain the most asinine moral codes and we as rational beings have naturally adjusted our moral codes despite these "holy books" (as seen by the decrease in slavery, and stoning of adulterers, etc). So democratic rational has largely taken over and is rendering the Bible and other "holy books" obsolete.




Originally posted by Surtur
It's not all of them, but I expect they are in a bad mood because of the power religion wields in this country(and the world).

I just took his comment as unintelligent trolling (in which case it seems a bit hypocritical), so I didn't intend to dignify it with a response. To me ridiculous comments like those of Pat Robertson condemning whole communities to hell on God's behalf for "turning their backs on God" seems to contain quite a bit more "whiny a-hole-ness" than I've ever seen an atheist convey.

If you don't care about statistics and representation then you are talking about anarchism, not democracy.

Anarchism is the most fun form of Government.

Originally posted by Bentley
If you don't care about statistics and representation then you are talking about anarchism, not democracy.

I didn't say I don't care about statistics. I don't understand the point you were trying to make with it.


Originally posted by Bentley

The comparison also undermines the problem of representation. Yes, democracy is a system but ultimately its fate is decided by the quality of representation you can get on your ruler. Because decisions are only made by individuals and not systems, hence there is always someone at the top, guiding and making actual decisions. Translating this issue towards morality only goes to probe why morality is so complex and culturally based.
With this, I think you are pointing out that even in a democracy there are still select few representing the thoughts and feelings of the majority. Well, that's the case in our current forms of democracy, but in a true, properly functioning democratic republic the people should have more and better ways of collaborating and deliberating on important issues instead of electing people to decide for us. And yes, we do still vote on certain topics, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about public spheres where people get together and iron out issues that then feed into the government at large. It would be a government truly run by the people.

We don't have such public spheres, at least not here in the United States.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I didn't say I don't care about statistics. I don't understand the point you were trying to make with it.

I'm pondering on how accurate it is no argue that our system of morality is similar to democracy, because of the inherent problems in democracy (mostly). Democracy is a system of representation, so it's interesting to compare it with a system of morality which is also a different set of representations.



Originally posted by Patient_Leech
With this, I think you are pointing out that even in a democracy there are still select few representing the thoughts and feelings of the majority. Well, that's the case in our current forms of democracy, but in a true, properly functioning democratic republic the people should have more and better ways of collaborating and deliberating on important issues instead of electing people to decide for us. And yes, we do still vote on certain topics, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about public spheres where people get together and iron out issues that then feed into the government at large. It would be a government truly run by the people.

We don't have such public spheres, at least not here in the United States.

Yes, this is an interesting point. A more perfected kind of democracy alleviates the worst issues of the problem of having a representative of the people, but it brings a whole new number of problems regarding representation. One point of view is more likely to be coherent when making decisions if there is a single individual making the choices. Sure, we are assuming that the "leader" in question is well-informed and acts reasonably, but that's also the idea behind any kind of true democracy: voters are as well informed as possible and understand the weight of social responsability (they are not purely motivated by selfishness). The more people that need to be in such state of enlightment, the more difficult it is to have people keeping up with current knowledge. Otherwise truly being run by the people means being badly run.

I agree that the morality derived by the teachings of people actively Learning new moral processes tends to be more perfected than a from-the-top process where morality is "given". But at some point you also end up handing down those moral choices to people who haven't diggested them through the trials of decision making, which is a not truly a democratic process at that point.

Originally posted by SamZED
The podcast is "waking up with Sam Harris" I think. It's good, but Harris' calm tone works much better when he has someone to debate. Preferably someone with a temper.

I've listened to about a dozen of his podcasts so far and it's not just him speaking. A few of them were like that (and I definitely don't mind them because he's so well thought-out and eloquent), but he often has conversations/discussions with people and conducts interviews. For example the young girl who left the Westboro Baptist Church, the guy who does the Hardcore History Podcast, and I'm listen to another now where he's interviewing this brilliant documentary filmmaker, Joshua Openheimmer. I'm halfway through watching his film The Act of Killing and oh my god, it's incredible, stunning...

Patient_Leech: If you're born in the wrong part of the world, then sorry, you just missed the correct revelation to get to heaven.

Me: Not necessarily. You see, Abraham (Christ's EARTHLY ancestor/progenitor) BELIEVED GOD and it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. In other words, God HONORED Abraham's FAITH and gave him RIGHTEOUSNESS CREDIT, if you will. Abraham lived THOUSANDS of years before the WORD (Jesus Christ) became FLESH and dwelt among us, and long before He was crucified for the sins of the world. So there was NO WAY for Abraham to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus at that time. He'd have to wait until the birth, sinless life, death, and RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus Christ occurred BEFORE he could have an opportunity to believe on Him. Hence, if a person has not heard the gospel, but they BELIEVE GOD, God can give (or extend to) them righteousness CREDIT (or credit righteousness until such time as they are able to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and become saved OFFICIALLY). In addition, God can miraculously keep a person alive long enough to confess His Son Jesus if they exercise faith in Him (God), showing or demonstrating that they believe that He is God (Creator), even if they've never heard the gospel. The KEY in all of this is FAITH IN GOD not whether or not someone has heard the gospel in this type of extenuating situation.

Patient_Leech: Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice and when put in different contexts makes it look like the beliefs of a lunatic.

Me: Is the military a cult too? You see, many brave soldiers GIVE THEIR PRECIOUS LIVES on a daily basis so that people like you, me, and others in the world could be SAVED from the WAGES OF TERRORISM. Are these courageous soldiers lunatics for believing in HUMAN SACRIFICE too? The only difference between these soldiers and Christianity (in these real-life scenarios) is that the Lord Jesus is BOTH DIVINE AND HUMAN, so His HUMAN SACRIFICE SAVES those who believe on Him from the WAGES OF THEIR SINS.

Patient_Leech: Serial killers can go to heaven after a life of evil brutality just by saying a few words on death row.

Me: That's why many call it AMAZING GRACE. The BLOOD OF JESUS can save the most vile, wicked sinner if he/she truly wants to be saved. But did you know that there is NO DIFFERENCE IN THE EYES OF GOD between a serial killer and a person who has never physically murdered someone else? If they are NOT born again they're going to the SAME PLACE when they die because both are sinners. It just took Adam and Eve ONE sin apiece for them to become sinners in need of the Savior. But be not deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, that shall he/she also reap.

Patient_Leech: God is praised with some activities, but does he get the blame for atrocities? No, it's said that he's "mysterious."

Me: To those who are GROWING in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, God is praised for ALL of His acts. You see, we KNOW that God doesn't make mistakes. What you don’t understand is that ALL ATROCITIES are the result of humanity's WILLFUL REBELLION against God. It started in the Garden of Eden and has continued down through time. In addition, to willful rebellion humans have a SIN NATURE that manifests through the works (actions) of our flesh (and mind). If that wasn't enough the problem is COMPOUNDED by the fact that the devil and his angels (who are malevolent spirit beings with supernatural powers) are bent on deceiving and destroying as many people (both believer and unbeliever) that they can. There are numerous satanists, witches, sorcerers, warlocks, mediums, and others involved in the occult (such as those who practice Freemasonry, Spiritism, voodoo, etc.) who can attest to their existence, as well as many believers (myself included). But none of this chaos and lawlessness that we see on earth is goes on in Heaven. There is NO sin, terrorism, sickness, nuclear weapons, famine, recession, inflation, accidents, disease, natural disasters, pornography, drug addicts, hospitals, theft, prostitution, doctors, ambulances, stock market crash, mental illness, flooding or floods, fire departments, embezzlement, depression, child molestation, fire departments, depression, child molestations, police stations, clinics, abortion centers, war, sex trafficking, illegal drugs, guns, rape, medicine, crying/tears of anguish, death, sorrow, or pain. These things don't exist in Heaven because HEAVEN IS BEING RULED BY GOD. God is NOT ruling THIS WORLD. The devil is the god of this age (or world). So, all of the atrocities that occur on earth are the effects of a combination of things summed in one word: sin (human, demonic, and satanic sins)

Patient_Leech: When Elves die in The Lord of the Rings they can be reborn in Middle Earth. lol

Me: When believers die in the Lord, they go to Heaven if they are born again.

Patient_Leech: The God of the Bible is morally corrupt, but because it's declared that "He's God," it doesn't matter what he does or says, it's automatically good because he's God.

Me: Can you give me one example of God being morally corrupt? You do know it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be morally corrupt right? It's like saying that the largest star that has been discovered thus far (VY Canis Majoris), has LESS mass than our sun. That's NOT POSSIBLE. The earth has a CIRCUMFERENCE OF 24,901.55 MILES, and an approximate MASS of 6.6 SEXTILLION TONS. That's MASSIVE. Yet, as immense as earth is it PALES in comparison to the sun—which can fit 100 EARTHS inside of itself. However, VY Canis Majoris DWARFS the sun. For example, if the sun were the size of a baseball, VY Canis Majoris would be a globe with a 400-foot diameter http://www.space.com/17342-extreme-stargazing-best-night-sky-sights.html. But the point is it is impossible for VY Canis Majoris to have less mass than the sun (unless it dies), and it is impossible for God to be morally corrupt (unless He dies, which is IMPOSSIBLE).

Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Patient_Leech: The God of the Bible is morally corrupt, but because it's declared that "He's God," it doesn't matter what he does or says, it's automatically good because he's God.

Me: Can you give me one example of God being morally corrupt? You do know it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be morally corrupt right?
It's apparently not impossible, even according to the most holy of Holy Books, the Holy Bible. I can give you many more than just one example...




^ directly from God himself. Flagrantly immoral. "Thou shalt not kill" unless it's on a mass scale and God approves it, of course.





Do you keep slaves, JesusLovesYou? Is this really the best map we have for human morality?



And sorry, homosexuality is not wrong just because it was once written in a book claiming to be the word of God. That's not good enough evidence. It doesn't harm anyone and in fact demonstrates an adaptive survival mechanism for the planet, helping deal with overpopulation. So it is not to be discouraged. Thus sayeth the Leech.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ directly from God himself. Flagrantly immoral. "Thou shalt not kill" unless it's on a mass scale and God approves it, of course.

Well the imperative to not kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt. The Hebrew verb (retzach) translates to "murder" or "kill" but it has a wider ranger of meanings.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And sorry, homosexuality is not wrong just because it was once written in a book claiming to be the word of God. That's not good enough evidence. It doesn't harm anyone and in fact demonstrates an adaptive survival mechanism for the planet, helping deal with overpopulation. So it is not to be discouraged. Thus sayeth the Leech.

What is your basis that homosexuality isn't morally wrong?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What is your basis that homosexuality isn't morally wrong?

I think it's more appropriate to ask the opposite: what's the basis for it being morally wrong? Seems to me the obligation should be on the one condemning it to come up with "why." "Because God said so" isn't enough. But I'll humor you...

It doesn't harm anyone, doesn't cause any suffering of any kind and in fact increases the love bond between two human beings. Seems to me God would encourage it if He did indeed exist in a "personal relationship" sort of way.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I think it's more appropriate to ask the opposite: what's the basis for it being morally wrong? Seems to me the obligation should be on the one condemning it to come up with "why." "Because God said so" isn't enough. But I'll humor you...

I never said that homosexuality was morally wrong or right. And in fact you trying to take God out of context is something that happens a lot. We can look up the "homosexual" scriptures one by one and maybe you'll understand the verses once people stop cherry picking the Bible to try to fit whatever narrative they want it to fit.

First is Leviticus 20:13. Well, first Leviticus is a set of laws given to the people of Israel and the purpose of these laws was to set Israel apart from the nations that surrounded them. These people practiced Idol worship and God didn't want His people to follow any of their pagan practices or traditions. Some of these laws do seem odd when you don't take the context of the Levitical Laws into account. One of these laws forbid the Israelites from cutting the hair on the side of their head. And the reason is because some of the nations that surrounded Israel shaved the side of their heads to honor their pagan gods. The reason God didn't want them to do this was because God didn't want Israel to practice customs that is associated with idol worship.

Well cutting hair wasn't the only way that ancient peoples practiced idol worship. Sexuality was a big part of their religious worship. The Ammonites, for example, had men who served as temple prostitutes. If you wanted healthy children or a good harvest you would go plea to your god by having sex with one of the males at the temple. By offering your seed to that prostitute you were offering it to that temple's god. You can see why God would want to separate the Ancient Israelites from these practices.

The act of cutting hair by itself isn't wrong but becomes wrong when tied to idol worship. No one is cutting hair in our society in honor of a pagan god. Same can be said about homosexuality. It's the context that matters. These verses are tied to pagan debauchery and idol worship.

Another verse is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which says, paraphrasing, that "homosexuals will not inherent the kingdom of God." So obviously that's cut and dry. In fact 1 Timothy 1:10 also says that "practicing homosexuality" is wrong. But does it?

Again, this comes down to taking a book written in Ancient Hebrew and Greek and translating it to modern day English. You're not going to get a perfect translation because some words don't have an English counterpart to it. The original Greek used for homosexuality in both verses is "Arsenokoites" which is a compound word made up of Arsen (meaning man) and Koites (which means beds). So the word means man who has sex in many beds. But translating compound words literally doesn't always say its meaning. Just think of the word "Butterfly" for example because compound words don't always equal the sum of their part.

So how can we find out what Arsenokoites means? The problem is that this word is only used twice in the entire Bible. And in both times they are used in a list where the context can't really be helpful in determining what the word is implying. But the word was being used in the ancient texts called the Sibylline Oracles which uses the word in the context of economic exploitation. The tax collector (after all) was a constant example of a sinner, after all, so with this in mind it seems more likely that Arsenokoites is referencing a tax collector's practice of exploitation rather than homosexuality.

So from a Christian standpoint, is homosexuality morally wrong? It's hard to say from a Biblical standpoint because when taking these verses in full context they are talking about idol worship like, again, the example of cutting your hair. And Arsenokoites doesn't give us a clear enough in-text understanding of what it's references but other writings of the word don't use it in reference of homosexuality.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Well cutting hair wasn't the only way that ancient peoples practiced idol worship. Sexuality was a big part of their religious worship. The Ammonites, for example, had men who served as temple prostitutes. If you wanted healthy children or a good harvest you would go plea to your god by having sex with one of the males at the temple. By offering your seed to that prostitute you were offering it to that temple's god. You can see why God would want to separate the Ancient Israelites from these practices.

Damn, those hookers had a good sell. "F*ck me or your kid is gonna be born sick".

Originally posted by ESB -1138
I never said that homosexuality was morally wrong or right. And in fact you trying to take God out of context is something that happens a lot. We can look up the "homosexual" scriptures one by one and maybe you'll understand the verses once people stop cherry picking the Bible to try to fit whatever narrative they want it to fit.

First is Leviticus 20:13. Well, first Leviticus is a set of laws given to the people of Israel and the purpose of these laws was to set Israel apart from the nations that surrounded them. These people practiced Idol worship and God didn't want His people to follow any of their pagan practices or traditions. Some of these laws do seem odd when you don't take the context of the Levitical Laws into account. One of these laws forbid the Israelites from cutting the hair on the side of their head. And the reason is because some of the nations that surrounded Israel shaved the side of their heads to honor their pagan gods. The reason God didn't want them to do this was because God didn't want Israel to practice customs that is associated with idol worship.

Well cutting hair wasn't the only way that ancient peoples practiced idol worship. Sexuality was a big part of their religious worship. The Ammonites, for example, had men who served as temple prostitutes. If you wanted healthy children or a good harvest you would go plea to your god by having sex with one of the males at the temple. By offering your seed to that prostitute you were offering it to that temple's god. You can see why God would want to separate the Ancient Israelites from these practices.

The act of cutting hair by itself isn't wrong but becomes wrong when tied to idol worship. No one is cutting hair in our society in honor of a pagan god. Same can be said about homosexuality. It's the context that matters. These verses are tied to pagan debauchery and idol worship.

Another verse is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which says, paraphrasing, that "homosexuals will not inherent the kingdom of God." So obviously that's cut and dry. In fact 1 Timothy 1:10 also says that "practicing homosexuality" is wrong. But does it?

Again, this comes down to taking a book written in Ancient Hebrew and Greek and translating it to modern day English. You're not going to get a perfect translation because some words don't have an English counterpart to it. The original Greek used for homosexuality in both verses is "Arsenokoites" which is a compound word made up of Arsen (meaning man) and Koites (which means beds). So the word means man who has sex in many beds. But translating compound words literally doesn't always say its meaning. Just think of the word "Butterfly" for example because compound words don't always equal the sum of their part.

So how can we find out what Arsenokoites means? The problem is that this word is only used twice in the entire Bible. And in both times they are used in a list where the context can't really be helpful in determining what the word is implying. But the word was being used in the ancient texts called the Sibylline Oracles which uses the word in the context of economic exploitation. The tax collector (after all) was a constant example of a sinner, after all, so with this in mind it seems more likely that Arsenokoites is referencing a tax collector's practice of exploitation rather than homosexuality.

So from a Christian standpoint, is homosexuality morally wrong? It's hard to say from a Biblical standpoint because when taking these verses in full context they are talking about idol worship like, again, the example of cutting your hair. And Arsenokoites doesn't give us a clear enough in-text understanding of what it's references but other writings of the word don't use it in reference of homosexuality.

I'm well aware that the translations are often odd.

And connecting the passages to their supposedly historical context just makes them even less relevant today. It was tribalism, "Our god is the true god, yours is not."

It's just more reason to study these books as we would any other literature or poetry, not as a guide to morality.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
It's just more reason to study these books as we would any other literature or poetry, not as a guide to morality.

Is morality universal or is morality relative? And why?

Morality is in our heads, our brains. And that doesn't mean it's relative because we have evolved to work together and have great capacity for kindness.

It's just the in-group/out-group tribalism that needs to fade away.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Morality is in our heads, our brains. And that doesn't mean it's relative.

So morality is based on the collective or are you suggesting that there is no morality?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
So morality is based on the collective or are you suggesting that there is no morality?

Of course there's morality. If by "collective" you mean some sort of collaboration and deliberation sort of like a healthy democratic process, yes, I believe it is. That's all we have, is our brains and collaboration.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
If by "collective" you mean some sort of collaboration and deliberation sort of like a healthy democratic process, yes, I believe it is. That's all we have, is our brains and collaboration.

So when the majority are in favor of killing the minority, is that now morally acceptable?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
So when the majority are in favor of killing the minority, is that now morally acceptable?

Nope, not necessarily. Might depend on the reason (if the minority is fanatical Islamists, for example, heh). But no, the idea would be to minimize suffering.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Nope, not necessarily. Might depend on the reason (if the minority is fanatical Islamists, for example, heh). But no, the idea would be to minimize suffering.

Would you say that suffering would including preventing someone from pleasure or joy?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Would you say that suffering would including preventing someone from pleasure or joy?

Where exactly are you going with this?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Would you say that suffering would including preventing someone from pleasure or joy?
Originally posted by socool8520
Where exactly are you going with this?

Eating babies is my pleasure and joy. So it's perfectly morally acceptable.

When I was younger, less experienced, and more naive, I thought Sam Harris was a true intellectual heavyweight. Then, I saw real intellectual heavyweights, and realized Sam Harris is mostly a fraud.

Just look at how easily William Lane Craig takes him down to size:

Edit: just got a message saying I can't post links until I'm more well known. Just go to YouTube and search "Sam Harris -VS- William Lane Craig - Foundation Of Morality. Science Debate" to see the video I was going to post.

Originally posted by MovieFreak92
...realized Sam Harris is mostly a fraud.

That's going a bit far with the hyperbole there, sir. Makes me doubt whether you've actually sat and understood his points of view. It's fine not to agree with him, but he's far from a fraud.

If Craig thinks that Jesus literally walked on water and was raised from the dead I think it's pretty clear who the quack is. Because there's no reconciling the facts of natural evolution with the literal miraculous events of the Bible. Let's see: scientific claims with solid evidence that can be repeated and can predict future events, or ignorant superstitious ramblings from hundreds of years ago?

(Not a difficult choice for me.)

Is it one of these? I actually haven't seen either one in their entirety yet...

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5VmLQjdT7IA

This guys makes really good vidoes. Here is another great slaughtering of Christianity...

IKBQ6X2zg64

cw-JJ_vVoN0

I always find it funny that the These guys who go around "Destroying Christianity" are the ones that should be the most thankful for Christianity...

Thankful for the centuries of ignorance and obstacles to scientific progress that it has caused?

Shut up, Fly.

Yes, at least it's somewhat reformed now and it's not Islam. I'll grant. So for that we should be thankful, and I guarantee that's not lost on Sam Harris or any other thoughtful atheists. But Christianity is still not truly conducive to human flourishing.

IF it wasn't for Christianity Little Sammy boy wouldn't have his "celebrity status' and thus no career.

So yes. Sam should be saying...

https://hollifield1122.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/thank-you-jesus.jpg

Originally posted by Flyattractor
IF it wasn't for Christianity Little Sammy boy wouldn't have his "celebrity status' and thus no career.

Believe it or not he has written and spoken about a myriad of other topics that don't involve Hey-Zeus. So no, he doesn't exactly owe his "celebrity status" to Christianity.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Believe it or not he has written and spoken about a myriad of other topics that don't involve Hey-Zeus. So no, he doesn't exactly owe his "celebrity status" to Christianity.

Yes, but those don't get him any attention.

^ Yes, they do. He's extremely well spoken and articulate and would make a big intellectual impact with or without Hey-Zeus.

Right, he'd still have Mohammed.

^ Yeah, but Fly only cares about Hey-Zeus because He's the One True Messiah, duh..

Either way he best start praying.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ Yes, they do. He's extremely well spoken and articulate and would make a big intellectual impact with or without Hey-Zeus.

Hey! They said the same thing about Prez Obama...Maybe Sam should run for Prez...of something.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, he'd still have Mohammed.

But Bad Mouthing Mo can get you killed.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ Yeah, but Fly only cares about Hey-Zeus because He's the One True Messiah, duh..

That is why I also care about You Patty! Still on the fence about Beni tho....

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Either way he best start praying.

See! Beni just issued a threat there! Just like a Souless Atheist would!

Muhammad was peaceful and had great respect for women. Thanks for the lesson crazy lady

Nd6tBjt7lKg

Wrong thread

Just gonna link this: https://youtu.be/4CqLtbw0rlM

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Wrong thread

Just gonna link this: https://youtu.be/4CqLtbw0rlM




https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/cd/ea/f7cdea1f00b869363d6b9d5b1d899b8d.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsFv-N_WgAA2yaD.jpg

^ Ben Stiller? lol Someone was apparently confused when they made the meme.

I mean, he didn't created us, but that's another topic.

But let me give you an example:
My parents created me. I owe them my life. Would it be okay if they'd tortured, raped and killed me? Hell no. Based on your logic though, I'd had no right to question their authority.

He murdered everyone in the world besides one family. That's genocide. He threatens to do it again.



Who you are doesn't change what is considered to be wrong. If I murdered a bunch of people, the masses would think that's wrong.




I created children. I can't kill them as I see fit. That's wrong in almost everyone who is a rational human being's eyes. Him caring or not would only show how much of a sociopath he is.



Since I don't believe in God, I would say that I would be instructing the shit author on what is good and bad. (Those people really could have used a good editor)



Same point as my children argument. I gave them life, but it is not okay for me to murder them.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I mean, he didn't created us, but that's another topic.

But let me give you an example:
My parents created me. I owe them my life. Would it be okay if they'd tortured, raped and killed me? Hell no. Based on your logic though, I'd had no right to question their authority.

Except your parents didn't create you. Your parent gave you birth.

You were created by God. God created your parents along with every human and living thing and non living thing.

In that aspect, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I'll give you an example.

You are the creator of Mario. What right does Mario have to complain for having to fight monsters?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Except your parents didn't create you. Your parent gave you birth.

You were created by God. God created your parents along with every human and living thing and non living thing.

In that aspect, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I'll give you an example.

You are the creator of Mario. What right does Mario have to complain for having to fight monsters?

That's a terrible comparison considering Mario doesn't have free will does he? Also, it's a video game. If it was a fully formed AI that had rational thought, than it would most certainly have the right to question what we were making it do or doing to it.

The God created everything argument is weak imo. It's clear that we don't think he did so that line of reasoning is just a catch all for you. It's so lazy.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Except your parents didn't create you. Your parent gave you birth.

You were created by God. God created your parents along with every human and living thing and non living thing.

In that aspect, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants.

I'll give you an example.

You are the creator of Mario. What right does Mario have to complain for having to fight monsters? The sperm of my dad and the ovum of my mum created me, basically.

Which isn't a reason why it's morally sound that God can just slaughter us.

Mario is a fictional being without a free will
Edit: AG and socool said it better.

Originally posted by socool8520
That's a terrible comparison considering Mario doesn't have free will does he? Also, it's a video game. If it was a fully formed AI that had rational thought, than it would most certainly have the right to question what we were making it do or doing to it.

The God created everything argument is weak imo. It's clear that we don't think he did so that line of reasoning is just a catch all for you. It's so lazy.

And who said God isn't playing us. Is free will actually free? Are we really the ones in control?

Assuming we are. What difference is there. Give Mario free will and he still has no right to question it's creator.

Weak? How is it weak. Share to me your doubts.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
The sperm of my dad and the ovum of my mum created me, basically.

Which isn't a reason why it's morally sound that God can just slaughter us.

Mario is a fictional being without a free will
Edit: AG and socool said it better.

And who created the atoms in your body? Who created the air your breathe and the water you drink?

So, Josh, are you basically saying that God is a violent, sadistic monster?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So, Josh, are you basically saying that God is a violent, sadistic monster?

No. He is a benevolent God. An all loving God whose patience is WAY TOO GOOD.

You know guys, i really like this forum. I entered it until today and am already liking it a LOTTT!

I was once just like you. Questioning things, until someone answered them to me. Now i have the opportunity to share them.

So bring me your questions.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And who said God isn't playing us. Is free will actually free? Are we really the ones in control?

Assuming we are. What difference is there. Give Mario free will and he still has no right to question it's creator.

Weak? How is it weak. Share to me your doubts.

If this is true then we are not responsible for anything we do ever. Which means we all go to heaven. You can believe that if you want but it's pretty ridiculous imo. It also shits on many points the Bible brings up so I'm not even sure what your beliefs are to be honest.

So you're a sociopath or are cool with following one? Good to know.

If you can't see how you shouldn't murder and cause suffering to the things you have created, or at least criticize it, then your argument is weak.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So, Josh, are you basically saying that God is a violent, sadistic monster?

It's all a matter of perception.

What is violent to you? What has God done that should be considered violence?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
It's all a matter of perception.

What is violent to you? What has God done that should be considered violence?

You don't consider murder violence? You're trolling. You have to be.

Originally posted by socool8520
If this is true then we are not responsible for anything we do ever. Which means we all go to heaven. You can believe that if you want but it's pretty ridiculous imo. It also shits on many points the Bible brings up so I'm not even sure what your beliefs are to be honest.

So you're a sociopath or are cool with following one? Good to know.

If you can't see how you shouldn't murder and cause suffering to the things you have created, or at least criticize it, then your argument is weak.

Okay i was just giving perceptions. Lets get into the real thing then.

I believe in Free Will. I do. I believe am the one in control and so are you.

In that aspect why is God guilty of our actions?

Originally posted by socool8520
You don't consider murder violence? You're trolling. You have to be.

I will use my perception now. I was using several perceptions. Now read what i quote you above.

Free Will:

Many blame God for the evil in the world. Why is God evil for what we cause?

If i kill any of you, is God responsible?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

Let's start with Genocide.


YOG-SOTHOTH

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay i was just giving perceptions. Lets get into the real thing then.

I believe in Free Will. I do. I believe am the one in control and so are you.

In that aspect why is God guilty of our actions?

He wouldn't be in that respect. However he then wouldn't be Omnipotent either.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Let's forget about Mario's retoric.

You are Mario now. But you are Sentient. You have free will.

What are you complaining about? What is God doing wrong?

He is forcing you to do something you don't want to do and possibly getting you killed in the process. How is that not wrong?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Let's forget about Mario's retoric.

You are Mario now. But you are Sentient. You have free will.

What are you complaining about? What is God doing wrong?
Well, why should I forget about it? If I am Mario, maybe I am sick and tired of saving ungrateful princesses and being forced into a life of violence? Maybe I want out of the madhouse? If my creators deny me that, then they have turned me into a slave for their own amusement.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Let's start with Genocide.


YOG-SOTHOTH

Considereing we have free will, is God responsible for you murdering your ex-wife?

If in case you respond like socool8520. Read what i'll write to him.

Originally posted by socool8520
He wouldn't be in that respect. However he then wouldn't be Omnipotent either.

I wonder the same once too.

God is Omnipotent, but i have Free Will!!!!!

So, in that respect. I was allowed to do WHATEVER I WANT. God gave us free will, he promised he wouldn't interfere in our decisions.

So. In that respect, If i am about to murder you, can God stop me?? HELL YES. But will he? No. Because then he is breaking his promise. He is being a liar.

The moment God steps in to stop me from killing you, then in that moment i don't longer have free will.

So, it's funny. We humans want to be in control yet we want God to help us.

If it were to be opposite. We would argue how God is tyrannical for forcing us to do his will.

So, you see?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Considereing we have free will, is God responsible for you murdering your ex-wife?

No,but he is responsible for killing nearly the entire human population.
Heis responsible for ordering the hebrews to slaughter boys, men & women.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well, why should I forget about it? If I am Mario, maybe I am sick and tired of saving ungrateful princesses and being forced into a life of violence? Maybe I want out of the madhouse? If my creators deny me that, then they have turned me into a slave for their own amusement.

If you were Mario with free will, you could decide to help the princess or not.

Besides, you were created for the very purpose of rescuing the princess. So that's your purpose. Who are you to question your purpose?

However AS I SAID. MARIO'S rhetoric was a bad one. Cause Mario has no free will, and the Creators of Mario aren't God.

Let's rather focus on God here, and We as Marios.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No,but he is responsible for killing nearly the entire human population.
Heis responsible for ordering the hebrews to slaughter boys, men & women.

Specified when please.

God ordered killings yes. But let me ask you this.

If he creates life, he has no right to take it away?

Cause i don't know if you knew this but, whenever someone dies, it's because God wanted it that way. Even today. Death is God's emissary.

But again, who are you to forbid God from taking what he gave in the first place?

Are you asking to live forever?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander


God is Omnipotent, but i have Free Will!!!!!

So, in that respect. I was allowed to do WHATEVER I WANT. God gave us free will, he promised he wouldn't interfere in our decisions.

So. In that respect, If i am about to murder you, can God stop me?? HELL YES. But will he? No. Because then he is breaking his promise. He is being a liar.

The moment God steps in to stop me from killing you, then in that moment i don't longer have free will.

So, it's funny. We humans want to be in control yet we want God to help us.

If it were to be opposite. We would argue how God is tyrannical for forcing us to do his will.

So, you see?

No you just don't believe in God and realize that you are responsible for your own actions. It's that simple.

In your scenario he is a bastard. I created you knowing full well what you were going to do in the future correct? I knew you were going to murder someone, but allowed your creation anyway. That's sadistic. I don't care how you look at it. The only way he is not at fault in this scenario is if he isn't Omnipotent. Then it's on you

Originally posted by socool8520
No you just don't believe in God and realize that you are responsible for your own actions. It's that simple.

In your scenario he is a bastard. I created you knowing full well what you were going to do in the future correct? I knew you were going to murder someone, but allowed your creation anyway. That's sadistic. I don't care how you look at it. The only way he is not at fault in this scenario is if he isn't Omnipotent. Then it's on you
Indeed. Free will does not jive with an omnipotent and omniscient creator.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yeah you do!!!

You have the right to do whatever you wish! ANYTHING YOU DESIRE. That's free will.

But doesn't mean you won't be judged by it. You can do anything you want, but everything has it's consequences.

God allowed you to think and do as you wish, but he also told you that when everything is over, he will judge your actions.

Actions he created you to do. That's stupid. You can't have omnipotence and free will. It doesn't work.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Specified when please.

God ordered killings yes. But let me ask you this.

If he creates life, he has no right to take it away?

For example, the great flood & this:


And no, he hasn't. My parents created my life. They have no right to take it away either.


I mean, I don't believe in god, but okay? Sounds like he gave us free will just to ignore it.


I'm aperson with free will, and not a toy in the game of a sadistic *******.

Originally posted by socool8520
No you just don't believe in God and realize that you are responsible for your own actions. It's that simple.

In your scenario he is a bastard. I created you knowing full well what you were going to do in the future correct? I knew you were going to murder someone, but allowed your creation anyway. That's sadistic. I don't care how you look at it. The only way he is not at fault in this scenario is if he isn't Omnipotent. Then it's on you

And what are your motives for not believing in God? What makes you think that? There most always be a reason for every actions/thought/decision.

Okay, here is where it gets the most interesting about God:

God knows everything that was, is and will happen. Now, let me ask you this.

You are going to die one way or the other. You could die of a heart attack, of diabetes, of pulmonary cancer, of a fart, of ANYTHING.

Does it really matter the way you die? It doesn't!!! It's selfish. You will die either way, yet we complain about the way we are going to die!!!!? That is being proud.

God doesn't care the way you die. You will die, one way or the next. Now, who said the future is linear? Who said that there is only one road ahead of us?

God knows what will happen in the future but he also knows it might not happen.

I could be about to kill you, but then I remembered I would go to prison for the rest of my life and rather not. Or i could remember my mama told me not to kill, and stop myself.

The future isn't written. We write it along the way. Anything can happen.

And God knows all the posibilites. He can see all the infinite amout of roads that lie ahead. He can see how i will kill you in an alternate future, and how i won't due to a memory i had in another.

God believes you will do the right thing. If you do the wrong thing well it doesn't matter, you are going to die eventually!!! Who are you to decide when to perish?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander


Okay, here is where it gets the most interesting about God:

God knows everything that was, is and will happen. Now, let me ask you this.

So he knows that Ted Bundy would kill all those girls, and that Hitler would kill all these people, and yet he allowed it?


Wait, what? So he doesn't knows everything?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So he knows that Ted Bundy would kill all those girls, and that Hitler would kill all these people, and yet he allowed it?


Wait, what? So he doesn't knows everything?

The future isn't linear. It isn't written in paper.

God can see the future. But isn't like the future is this line of events.

The are not even considered events, they are possibilities.

God can see ALL THE POSSIBILITES!!! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Well God knew Hitler would kill all those people, but he also knew Hitler could have refused to! HAHAHA you see? It isn't that simple.

Besides those people would have died in the end either way! If God would have stepped in, he wouldn't have only be breaking Free Will but also preventing the inevitable...Death.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And what are your motives for not believing in God? What makes you think that? There most always be a reason for every actions/thought/decision.
There is no real evidence supporting the existence of a God. I side with science so if it isn't observable, recordable, etc., then there isn't a huge reason for me to believe it exists. (It can never be ruled out, but is highly unlikely imo)

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, here is where it gets the most interesting about God:

God knows everything that was, is and will happen. Now, let me ask you this.

You are going to die one way or the other. You could die of a heart attack, of diabetes, of pulmonary cancer, of a fart, of ANYTHING.

Does it really matter the way you die? It doesn't!!! It's selfish. You will die either way, yet we complain about the way we are going to die!!!!? That is being proud.

God doesn't care the way you die. You will die, one way or the next. Now, who said the future is linear? Who said that there is only one road ahead of us?

God knows what will happen in the future but he also knows it might not happen.

I could be about to kill you, but then I remembered I would go to prison for the rest of my life and rather not. Or i could remember my mama told me not to kill, and stop myself.

The future isn't written. We write it along the way. Anything can happen.

And God knows all the posibilites. He can see all the infinite amout of roads that lie ahead. He can see how i will kill you in an alternate future, and how i won't due to a memory i had in another.

So he's not Omnipotent. Anyone can think of all the possibilities. That's not the same thing an omnipotence.

Your other scenario suggests that he is such an egotistical douche bag that he would created alternate timelines just to make himself infallible. Sounds like a swell guy. All he needs to do now is have a low opinion of women and make fun of gays like all the other frat boys. Oh wait.....



Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
God believes you will do the right thing. If you do the wrong thing well it doesn't matter, you are going to die eventually!!! Who are you to decide when to perish?

If he believes it, he doesn't know it for sure (AKA not all knowing) . The other point doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay as i said, Mario's rhetoric isn't good for this, either way i will answer.

I am God, creator of Mario:

If Mario refused to rescue the Princess will I judge him???? HEELLLLL I WILL!

I made him for the sole purpose of rescuing HER!!! I gave him power mushroom and fire flowers. I have him an amazing mustache!!!

He saw that the princess was in need and he didn't help her!!! Now imagine how would the King (The father of the Princess) feel after knowing that Mario could have saved her, yet he didn't!!?

So see?

God is in a position to judge, for he created us. How will Mario answer to God when being faced with the question of why he didn't help the princess?

How does Mario expect not to be blamed for refusing to aid someone?
So then what would be an appropriate punishment for Mario?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The future isn't linear. It isn't written in paper.

God can see the future. But isn't like the future is this line of events.

The are not even considered events, they are possibilities.

God can see ALL THE POSSIBILITES!!! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

whatwhatwhat

He doesn't knows the future if he doesn't kbows which possibility will happen.


It is that simple, either...

1) God is not omnipotent
Or
2) God doesn't cares if millions of people get slaughtered.

Your choice.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
So then what would be an appropriate punishment for Mario?

I don't know am not God.

But the World isn't like Mario's world, nor are we Mario who doesn't have free will so let's forget that rhetoric.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
whatwhatwhat

He doesn't knows the future if he doesn't kbows which possibility will happen.


It is that simple, either...

1) God is not omnipotent
Or
2) God doesn't cares if millions of people get slaughtered.

Your choice.

You didn't got me.

Since the future isn't linear. Meaning that it isn't written!! Like we have free will, i could decided whether to type or not.

So God knows the future because he can see all the endless possibilities.

He knew Hitler might have ended up killing many. Yet Hitler had free will and could have decided not to. But since he did, Hitler is most likely waiting to be judged.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You didn't got me.

Since the future isn't linear. Meaning that it isn't written!! Like we have free will, i could decided whether to type or not.

So God knows the future because he can see all the endless possibilities.

He knew Hitler might have ended up killing many. Yet Hitler had free will and could have decided not to. But since he did, Hitler is most likely waiting to be judged. No, I know what you said. Yoz don't grap my pount though.

If God doesn't knows which future will happen, he isn't omnipotent.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You didn't got me.

Since the future isn't linear. Meaning that it isn't written!! Like we have free will, i could decided whether to type or not.

So God knows the future because he can see all the endless possibilities.

He knew Hitler might have ended up killing many. Yet Hitler had free will and could have decided not to. But since he did, Hitler is most likely waiting to be judged.

That's not omnipotence. That's chess. lol

Does this mean Bobby Fisher is God?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No, I know what you said. Yoz don't grap my pount though.

If God doesn't knows which future will happen, he isn't omnipotent.

He knows which future will happen cause he already saw it coming.

If someone knows all possibilities that might occur then he knows the future! lol. That's what it means.

So he does know what will happen in the future.

Originally posted by socool8520
That's not omnipotence. That's chess. lol

Does this mean Bobby Fisher is God?

If the Universe and it's galaxies along with everything that happens within it were to be confined in a piece of chess in where assumingly Fisher knows ALL THE POSSIBLE MOVES, then still Fisher isn't omnipotent Omnipotence isn't limited to reading the future.

Well consider the world like a Chess board but with INFINITE times more possibilities! God knows them all.

So he does know the future.

No. Knowing the future means you know exactly what will happen. Not knowing what can happen. It's chess on a larger scale, but it's still not Omnipotence.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He knows which future will happen cause he already saw it coming.

If someone knows all possibilities that might occur then he knows the future! lol. That's what it means.

So he does know what will happen in the future. .
No, he doed not.
He knows the possible futures, but he does not know which one will happen.


You say he didn't knew that Hitler would kill all the jews. That means he didn't knew the future. That means he isn't omniscient.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I don't know am not God.

But the World isn't like Mario's world, nor are we Mario who doesn't have free will so let's forget that rhetoric.
What do you think God would do or should do?

Fair enough.

Originally posted by socool8520
No. Knowing the future means you know exactly what will happen. Not knowing what can happen. It's chess on a larger scale, but it's still not Omnipotence.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No, he doed not.
He knows the possible futures, but he does not know which one will happen.


You say he didn't knew that Hitler would kill all the jews. That means he didn't knew the future. That means he isn't omniscient.

Not knowing what will happen means that what happen is something you didn't saw coming.

God sees everything that will come, therefore isn't like he doesn't know.

Not knowing is lack of information of something. God has information of all possible futures so doesn't matter which one occurs, he does know it would occur.

If you know that a pencil might fall, and you knew that pencil might not fall. It doesn't matter which occurs, you knew what would occur.

So he did knew.

And besides, the future doesn't concern God. Whatever occurs, isn't like it's relevant for God to interfere.

As i mentioned before, we all are going to die, so it doesn't matter how it occurs.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not knowing what will happen means that what happen is something you didn't saw coming.

God sees everything that will come, therefore isn't like he doesn't know.
No, he doesn't. He knows which futures *could* happen, but not which future *will* happen. It's not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not knowing what will happen means that what happen is something you didn't saw coming.

God sees everything that will come, therefore isn't like he doesn't know.

Not knowing is lack of information of something. God has information of all possible futures so doesn't matter which one occurs, he does know it would occur.

If you know that a pencil might fall, and you knew that pencil might not fall. It doesn't matter which occurs, you knew what would occur.

So he did knew.

And besides, the future doesn't concern God. Whatever occurs, isn't like it's relevant for God to interfere.

As i mentioned before, we all are going to die, so it doesn't matter how it occurs.

If I say pick a number between 1 and 10, you know the possibilities but you don't necessarily know the actual number I'll pick. Do you see the difference between that and actually knowing everything? That's not true Omniscience. That's educated guessing. Anyone can do that. Not Godlike at all

It obviously concerns you if he plans to judge you later. lol Why would he judge you if he doesn't care? Why is he worthy of praise if he doesn't give a shit about you?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No, he doesn't. He knows which futures *could* happen, but not which future *will* happen. It's not that hard to understand.

Well if he knows all the lines of possibilities then he knows the future! It's not hard to understand neither.

If he knows all possibilities then there is not a single thing that can happen without him knowing.

He might not know the which one will occur, but that's why he permitted Free Will didn't he? If there was a prescribed future (Like Destiny) then we don't longer have free will, since we are tied to that future.

So God Knows what will happen. Because there isn't a single thing that can occur that he didn't saw coming or that he didn't approved.

So anything that happens God already saw coming.

That's Omnipotence.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

He might not know the which one will occur, Finally. He doesn't knows what will happen, in other words, he isn't omniscient.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well if he knows all the lines of possibilities then he knows the future! It's not hard to understand neither.

If he knows all possibilities then there is not a single thing that can happen without him knowing.

He might not know the which one will occur, but that's why he permitted Free Will didn't he? If there was a prescribed future (Like Destiny) then we don't longer have free will, since we are tied to that future.

So God Knows what will happen. Because there isn't a single thing that can occur that he didn't saw coming or that he didn't approved.

So anything that happens God already saw coming.

That's Omnipotence.

Dude, that's not the same thing. Knowing what can happen and what will ABSOLUTELY (absolutely being the key word here) happen are tow different things.

One is an educated guess. Doing it on a grand scale doesn't change that. The other is actual omniscience.

Originally posted by socool8520
If I say pick a number between 1 and 10, you know the possibilities but you don't necessarily know the actual number I'll pick. Do you see the difference between that and actually knowing everything? That's not true Omniscience. That's educated guessing. Anyone can do that. Not Godlike at all

It obviously concerns you if he plans to judge you later. lol Why would he judge you if he doesn't care? Why is he worthy of praise if he doesn't give a shit about you?

Omniscience is knowing everything. So if we limit the Universe to a card with numbers from 1 to 10 and you were to guess which one I'd pick then you'd be Omniscience.

However, that rhetoric isn't good. Because if someone who doesn't know the number range wouldn't be able to know

So we humans are the ones who don't know the range of numbers here.

And still, God can know what you will do regardless of seeing the future. He can still read our minds.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Finally. He doesn't knows what will happen, in other words, he isn't omniscient.

He might still read your mind in the exact moment you do something.

So, still knows the future.

Also remember am not God. I don't know how he works, that's how i picture it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Omniscience is knowing everything. So if we limit the Universe to a card with numbers from 1 to 10 and you were to guess which one I'd pick then you'd be Omniscience.
What? No. socool would just have picked right - in other wordd, he'd be lucky.

Guys remember that's how i see it.

I might be wrong.

Let's say he does know the future what is the problem with that?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He might still read your mind in the exact moment you do something.

So, still knows the future.

Also remember am not God. I don't know how he works, that's how i picture it.
And? How does he know that I won't slip on something?

Anyway, he doesn't knows the future if he reads my mind. I don't know what will happen in 15 years. lol

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Omniscience is knowing everything. So if we limit the Universe to a card with numbers from 1 to 10 and you were to guess which one I'd pick then you'd be Omniscience.

However, that rhetoric isn't good. Because if someone who doesn't know the number range wouldn't be able to know

So we humans are the ones who don't know the range of numbers here.

And still, God can know what you will do regardless of seeing the future. He can still read our minds.

Wow man. When you lose at one thing you switch to the next. lol

Doesn't matter though. If he has to read your mind, it means he didn't know what you were going to do in the first place. No need to read a mind when you already know what a person is going to do is there?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Guys remember that's how i see it.

I might be wrong.

Let's say he does know the future what is the problem with that? The problem is that he would allow the slaughter of millions of people then.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Guys remember that's how i see it.

I might be wrong.

Let's say he does know the future what is the problem with that?

That's the point. We are working off the premise he does. All powerful and what not.

By this logic, he knows everything you will ever do before you do it. Not the possibilities, but what you will actually do. This negates free will.


So if you are a homicidal maniac, then ultimately God created you that way and he is a dick unworthy of praise.

Also, this

Originally posted by Ursumeles
The problem is that he would allow the slaughter of millions of people then.

Originally posted by socool8520
That's the point. We are working off the premise he does. All powerful and what not.

By this logic, he knows everything you will ever do before you do it. Not the possibilities, but what you will actually do. This negates free will.


So if you are a homicidal maniac, then ultimately God created you that way and he is a dick unworthy of praise.

No, he knew the posibilities along with what will happen. Else if he doesn't know the other possibilities then he isn't Omniscience.

I just remembered that i asked the same question once, and this is the response i got:

The fact that God knows the future doesn't mean he makes you do the things you do.

Also, I believe that God believes in you!

God believes you'll be able to change your future.

Omniscience also means that God knows what is possible.

God wouldn't have given you free will if he thought you weren't able to change your destiny!

We humans are quick to Judge and to Criticize!

God isn't.

If you were Hitler. Lets assume you are Hitler. God knows that you will kill people, yet he gave you free will. He knows you can turn the boat around. He believes you can change it. He knows you can, since he is OMNISCIENCE. That's how God responds to Free Will.

He will let you make the decisions. He won't force you to any road.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No, he knew the posibilities along with what will happen. Else if he doesn't know the other possibilities then he isn't Omniscience.

God wouldn't have given you free will if he thought you weren't able to change your destiny!

If he actually knows what will happen, he doesn't need the possibilities. They are irrelevant. In the numbers scenario for example, if I actually know the number you will choose is seven, then the possibilities don't matter. They don't change anything.

Then he doesn't know everything. You're going around in circles. Either he knows or he doesn't. What do you think. Omniscient or not?

Josh, there are two possibilities.

Either a) God is omniscient and knows what *will* happen (and not just that sometthing could happen)
And then this is the case:


Or

B) He knows what could happen, but he doesn't knows what will happen.
Conclusion - he isn't omniscient.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Considereing we have free will, is God responsible for you murdering your ex-wife?

If in case you respond like socool8520. Read what i'll write to him.



I wonder the same once too.

God is Omnipotent, but i have Free Will!!!!!

So, in that respect. I was allowed to do WHATEVER I WANT. God gave us free will, he promised he wouldn't interfere in our decisions.

So. In that respect, If i am about to murder you, can God stop me?? HELL YES. But will he? No. Because then he is breaking his promise. He is being a liar.

The moment God steps in to stop me from killing you, then in that moment i don't longer have free will.

So, it's funny. We humans want to be in control yet we want God to help us.

If it were to be opposite. We would argue how God is tyrannical for forcing us to do his will.

So, you see?

What if you make all the right choices and you are killed by another person, intentionally? Where's God then?