The Punisher vs. Nightwing

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StiltmanFTW
Random encounter.

Standard equipment, no cheap shots like gas bombs or sonics.

Eternal Idol
The Punisher, especially if we're sticking to the 0.5km starting distance in a featureless in environment stipulations.

Zack M
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The Punisher, especially if we're sticking to the 0.5km starting distance in a featureless in environment stipulations.

He can always use the hypnosis tech from Spyral. The same tech he used against Midnighter.

Damborgson
I feel like punisher is too tough. He'd probably get beaten pretty bad before leaving over and biting Dick.... in the neck.

Zack M
Originally posted by Damborgson
I feel like punisher is too tough. He'd probably get beaten pretty bad before leaving over and biting Dick.... in the neck.

Dick>Bruce>Punisher

vansonbee
Punisher gets beat up, but still gets the win for killing NW evil face

riv6672
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The Punisher, especially if we're sticking to the 0.5km starting distance in a featureless in environment stipulations.
Agreed, Punisher shoild be able to put a few rounds in NW before NW gets into any kind of effective range.

DTM
Dick will make him work for it, but Frank to me takes it in the end.

riv6672
He takes Dick in the end, yes.

Faceless808
Random encounter, and you gimp Nightwing's gear. Frank has his usual arsenal. How can Frank Lose?

Zack M
Originally posted by DTM
Dick will make him work for it, but Frank to me takes it in the end.

NW stalemated Batman. I don't think Punisher is in the same weight class as Dick.

DTM
That must have been quite a low showing for Batman then. stick out tongue

Zack M
Originally posted by DTM
That must have been quite a low showing for Batman then. stick out tongue

Dick has gotten a good push in the last several years. Even Tom King tweeted that Dick Grayson>>Batman.

Plus, with Spyral tech, we saw Dick survive his encounter with Midnighter.

deathslash
Castle caps his ass.

Zack M
Originally posted by deathslash
Castle caps his ass.

Because NW can't dodge bullets. :/

Scarlet315
Punisher with ease! I think in real early issue he even tagged Spidey

Zack M
Originally posted by Scarlet315
Punisher with ease! I think in real early issue he even tagged Spidey

Scans?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Zack M
Dick has gotten a good push in the last several years. Even Tom King tweeted that Dick Grayson>>Batman.

Plus, with Spyral tech, we saw Dick survive his encounter with Midnighter.

So a low showing for Batman, then.

Facee
^ And for midnighter.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Zack M
Because NW can't dodge bullets. :/

At a half a kilometer away with no cover, it would be much easier for Castle to shoot Nightwing than it would be for Nightwing to close the distance without getting shot.

Supermutant
Nightwing isn't better than Batman, but he is better than Punisher.

Zack M
Originally posted by -Pr-
So a low showing for Batman, then.

Not really. I see them as comparable and King did say he was better, IHO.

Zack M
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
At a half a kilometer away with no cover, it would be much easier for Castle to shoot Nightwing than it would be for Nightwing to close the distance without getting shot.

If he can OWN Grifter in a random encounter, he can beat Punisher. Again, it's not like Dick can't dodge bullets.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Zack M
Not really. I see them as comparable and King did say he was better, IHO.

batman's stock continues to fall either way.

Supermutant
I don't put much stock in what 1 writer states, when feats shows Batman > Nightwing

Zack M
Originally posted by Supermutant
I don't put much stock in what 1 writer states, when feats shows Batman > Nightwing

Batman has never survived a Midnighter encounter yet. stick out tongue

Supermutant
Originally posted by Zack M
Batman has never survived a Midnighter encounter yet. stick out tongue

A good thing for Bruce then that Grayson is not Midnighter.

Zack M
Originally posted by Supermutant
A good thing for Bruce then that Grayson is not Midnighter.

Hey, they did stalemate in the bat cave.

riv6672
Originally posted by Supermutant
Nightwing isn't better than Batman, but he is better than Punisher.
OP stips, guy.

Originally posted by Zack M
If he can OWN Grifter in a random encounter, he can beat Punisher. Again, it's not like Dick can't dodge bullets.
OP stips, guy.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
At a half a kilometer away with no cover, it would be much easier for Castle to shoot Nightwing than it would be for Nightwing to close the distance without getting shot.
OP stips. thumb up

Dreampanther
If it's a half kilometer away with no cover and Frank has his guns, he has all the advantages. He doesn't even have to break his rule about not killing innocents, he has enough time and space to aim for disabling shots.

If it's a random encounter in an urban area, then Dick has the advantage. He is faster, more agile, trained by Bruce Wayne and he can be upon Frank before he has time to aim.

Supermutant
kudos to everyone that forgot Nightwing wears body armor. Also nice of Dreampanther to bring up that in character Frank doesn't go for head shots on innocents.

Which mean gap closed and I didn't even have to bring up Nightwing's stealth or speed+ agility. Plus even being gimped NW still has an assortment of projectile attacks of his own.

Supermutant
Originally posted by Zack M
Hey, they did stalemate in the bat cave.

So yeah a tough shirtless sparring match that end in a stalemate does in no way means NW> Bruce. Glad we finally agree.

riv6672
Originally posted by Supermutant
Which mean gap closed
It doesnt mean that at all.

Body armor doesnt make him bulletproof, which is why you (and others) were making such a big deal about him dodging.
I get it though, You see a way to save face on an erroneous call, and you're taking it.

cdtm
Castle shoots him in the dick.

Supermutant
Originally posted by riv6672
It doesnt mean that at all.

Body armor doesnt make him bulletproof, which is why you (and others) were making such a big deal about him dodging.
I get it though, You see a way to save face on an erroneous call, and you're taking it.

On what erroneous call? B/c I have actually read both characters and know what their standard gear is, and how they usually perform.

NW's suit is bullet proof to an extent. He can't stand there and get hit by automatic 60 caliber shells, but he can take a couple of shots from Punisher's standard gear w/o permanent damage.

And Pun won't be able to just be stationery and take his time shooting someone defenseless. Nightwing can rapid fire batarangs, he also has bat bombs if needed for suppressive fire.

Any decent street routinely close the distance on shooters from closer w/o getting hit by bullets.

NW being dodging bullets from close range since 9 lol. Plus he has offensive capabilities of his on. And has used stealth to sneak up on Bat and "disappear" from Superman.

Here is point blank reaction time.

http://i.imgur.com/dhSJIEf.jpg

Here he is dodge a machine gun that fires 200 rounds per minute and he closes the gap on a flying opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/n7QLGPz.jpg

Maybe later I'll show how he has close the gap and dodged bullets from Deathstroke or how Daredevil has closed the gap routinely and dodged bullets from Punisher.

So yes he does close the gap b/c he has done it on panel repeatedly in more challenging situations w/o the current body armor that he now uses.

Young NW suit is even bullet proof pr- 52, and though hurt with a broken rib still one-shots opponent.

http://i.imgur.com/50OSEiv.jpg

And there's still more like his suit has a built in laser, tasers, and stun grenades. Not that he needs them to take out Pun, only to close the gap.

NW doesn't only have the one option to dodge, and has better standard equip besides gas and sonics.

Just so we are perfectly clear on who actually made "an erroneous call" by stating, "Body armor doesnt make him bulletproof."

https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34464425_nightwing19-wingarmor2.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34464426_nightwing19-wingarmor3.jpg

Looking forward to you trying to "save face."

StiltmanFTW
What are the batsuits made out of these days?

cdtm
Castle center shot Spidey and Matt. Nightwing has nothing on them when it comes to aim dodging.

StiltmanFTW
He shot a f*cking speedster, too.

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Castle center shot Spidey and Matt. Nightwing has nothing on them when it comes to aim dodging.

This is normally what happens when Frank tries to shoot DD even at close distance. NW can come very close to equaling every aim dodging feat of DD. He has been pretty much trained since birth to be DC's best acrobat.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpb2.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Ha, no. Normal showings have Frank shooting Parker himself, most recently in War Zone mini.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What are the batsuits made out of these days?

WIN

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ha, no. Normal showings have Frank shooting Parker himself, most recently in War Zone mini.

Well then either 2 things,

1. Spiderman sucks and Frank actions are immune to Parker's Spider Sense or

2. All streets in Marvel are ftl

Funny how Elektra can disarm Frank before he even knows it but Spiderman is helpless against him lol.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/63265/1405889-elektra_speed_blitz__punisher_02.jpg

Anyways NW still wins.

StiltmanFTW
To be fair, Elektra would murder Dick.

Supermutant
^^Not using as evidence of a fight, but too show how ridiculous it is when Peter doesn't immediately disarm Punisher.

Even Black Widow can do that although she also got disarmed.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/62/b1/cb/62b1cb3b11e12e70939b3c29ea97132f.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114711/5006691-2828296-prv14407_pg4.jpg

riv6672
Originally posted by Supermutant
On what erroneous call? B/c I have actually read both characters and know what their standard gear is, and how they usually perform.

So you're call isnt wrong then, just biased. Good you admit it. smile

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What are the batsuits made out of these days?

Zack M
Originally posted by Supermutant
^^Not using as evidence of a fight, but too show how ridiculous it is when Peter doesn't immediately disarm Punisher.

Even Black Widow can do that although she also got disarmed.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/62/b1/cb/62b1cb3b11e12e70939b3c29ea97132f.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114711/5006691-2828296-prv14407_pg4.jpg

Pretty much.

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ha, no. Normal showings have Frank shooting Parker himself, most recently in War Zone mini.

NW body reading helped him dodge Grifter. Oh, and Parker sucks.

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
^^Not using as evidence of a fight, but too show how ridiculous it is when Peter doesn't immediately disarm Punisher.

Even Black Widow can do that although she also got disarmed.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/62/b1/cb/62b1cb3b11e12e70939b3c29ea97132f.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114711/5006691-2828296-prv14407_pg4.jpg spidey's been beaten or outsmarted by frank on multiple occasions. Hell, Frank's. Had captaon america dead to rights once before. Dick loses because he gets shot in the face.

Zack M
Among many MA in Marvel. Spidey sense, anyone?

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
^^Not using as evidence of a fight, but too show how ridiculous it is when Peter doesn't immediately disarm Punisher.

Even Black Widow can do that although she also got disarmed.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/62/b1/cb/62b1cb3b11e12e70939b3c29ea97132f.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114711/5006691-2828296-prv14407_pg4.jpg

He's not wrong though.

And that's Ennis, he kind of has a hard on for Elektra the same way he does for Superman. stick out tongue

riv6672
Originally posted by Zack M
Oh, and Parker sucks.
That cutting edge debate style saves a lot of time on presenting a counter argument. Thanks. smile

Zack M
Originally posted by riv6672
That cutting edge debate style saves a lot of time on presenting a counter argument. Thanks. smile

thumb up Well, he does. smile

riv6672
Gotcha.
Always easy to go with that rather than try and come up with valid points.
Like i said, its a time saver, as it means i dont have to counter anything of value.

Zack M
Nobody has any valid points, because you guys don't even read the material.

Supermutant is on point.

Supermutant
Originally posted by riv6672
So you're call isnt wrong then, just biased. Good you admit it. smile

obvious attempt at face saving

Originally posted by deathslash
spidey's been beaten or outsmarted by frank on multiple occasions. Hell, Frank's. Had captaon america dead to rights once before. Dick loses because he gets shot in the face.

Puny Parker seems like the only meta/street who can't disarm Punisher and close the distance.

https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34465130_1395361-ms___moon_knight_v3_036_p09.jpg

And it was already established here that Pun is not bloodlusted so he doesn't go for kill shots on heroes.

So where is the evidence that NW can't close the distance and win H2H?

I've shown Elektra, DD, Moonknight, and Black Widow all being able to disarm Pun w/out being shot and close the distance.

Supermutant
Originally posted by Zack M
Nobody has any valid points, because you guys don't even read the material.

Supermutant is on point.

thumb up

Zack M
Originally posted by Supermutant
thumb up


Dick is a master strategist. wink

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW_zpsh8xwelct.jpg
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW2_zpsvrbemrbv.jpg

riv6672
Originally posted by Zack M
Nobody has any valid points, because you guys don't even read the material.

Supermutant is on point.

Originally posted by Supermutant
thumb up
So Zack deflects with 'do you guys even read comics' and supermutant enthusiastically thumbs him up.
Despite the actual arguments given (i myself posted the NW outfit compostion), and the OP stips explained repeatedly.
You two are a regular MENSA coalition.

Which is to say, easy to dismiss once the joke that your debates are has run its course.
Punisher FTW as stated by myself and others.
Later, fools.

Zack M
That was Paragon, BTW. Someone who had all the Justice League's abilities. wink

Zack M
BTW, NOBODY (including RIV) has said how Punisher would overcome hypnosis.

Nightwing FTW.

vansonbee
Oh please, Punisher would of destroyed that robot with ease, using his weapon of choice.

Zack M
Originally posted by vansonbee
Oh please, Punisher would of destroyed that robot with 1 gun.

laughing out loud You obviously didn't read the book. Now, how would Frank deal with hypnosis?

Damborgson
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/2981437-punishervsdakenpart13.jpg

He's not in for an easy run though, Frank is a hard man to put down.

Zack M
This would be Frank, but a LOT easier, since Grifter is a lot more skilled. Note that Dick dodged his ammo.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR_zpsqxhacoyg.jpg
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR2_zpsz7zgfosz.jpg
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR2_zpsz7zgfosz.jpg

Zack M
AND Grifter was using TELEPATHY on Grays, but it still failed. laughing out loud

Zack M
Here is the rest of it.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR4_zpshl4zywhe.jpg
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR5_zpsqdtdqbjm.jpg

Zack M
Originally posted by Damborgson
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/2981437-punishervsdakenpart13.jpg

He's not in for an easy run though, Frank is a hard man to put down.

Frank is hard to put down, but I think Grayson's electrical attack would take him out fast. He did take down Saiko, someone who is a lot faster and actually has healing factor.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW_zpsrpukhqvv.jpg

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Zack M
Here is the rest of it.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR4_zpshl4zywhe.jpg
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/GR5_zpsqdtdqbjm.jpg

While those scans definitely highlight Nightwing's skill and agility, he himself admits that Grifter could have taken him out while keeping his distance if he really wanted to. He points out that while Grifter's telepathic powers allowed him to predict Dick's moves and attacks, he knowingly does not want to shoot him for fear of killing Dick, and allowed him to close the distance to turn it into a brawl.

Zack M
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
While those scans definitely highlight Nightwing's skill and agility, he himself admits that Grifter could have taken him out while keeping his distance if he really wanted to. He points out that while Grifter's telepathic powers allowed him to predict Dick's moves and attacks, he knowingly does not want to shoot him for fear of killing Dick, and allowed him to close the distance to turn it into a brawl.

I think Grayson meant that he could have just shot him from a distance without him knowing. In the fight, we did see Grayson dodging his bullets, on top of overcoming his telepathy (UBER).

However, if Grayson is allowed Spyral tech and standard gear, he would take a solid majority.

Supermutant
Originally posted by riv6672
So Zack deflects with 'do you guys even read comics' and supermutant enthusiastically thumbs him up.
Despite the actual arguments given (i myself posted the NW outfit compostion), and the OP stips explained repeatedly.
You two are a regular MENSA coalition.

Which is to say, easy to dismiss once the joke that your debates are has run its course.
Punisher FTW as stated by myself and others.
Later, fools.

Way to pat yourself on the back for pasting info from Wiki. laughing

Zack M
For the past few years, Dick has gone up against Midnighter, Batman, Shiva, Grifter, etc... Here is NW using Hypnos on Midnighter. Yes, it even affected him.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW3_zpsicvtwht9.jpg


http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW4_zpstu1ualju.jpg

Zack M
LMAO Batman kicking a motorcycle in half. rolling on floor laughing

I won't post the whole fight, but it shows Grayson and Batman are somewhat comparable.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Zack M
Frank is hard to put down, but I think Grayson's electrical attack would take him out fast. He did take down Saiko, someone who is a lot faster and actually has healing factor.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/NW_zpsrpukhqvv.jpg

Well yeah, but I mean it's one of those abilities that would take out the other. Like when Punisher shoots him in the face.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/4917741-punisher_v4_16_p15.jpg

And Wolverine isn't a slouch in the speed department either.

Zack M
No, he isn't, but Dick doesn't go into battle like Wolverine. Wolverine can always rely on his healing factor. Plus, we've seen someone like Nightwing (Daredevil) dodge Punisher in the past. They go into battle differently.

vansonbee
Wolverine with or w/o healing factor, I'm sure he prefer to dodge it, if he could. Regarding Mid and Giff, they held tremulously back against Dick. I doubt Punisher has a fetish for Dicks butt, like Midnighter did.

Zack M
Originally posted by vansonbee
Wolverine with or w/o healing factor, I'm sure he prefer to dodge it, if he could. Regarding Mid and Giff, they held tremulously back against Dick. I doubt Punisher has a fetish for Dicks butt, like Midnighter did.

That still doesn't answer how Frank deals with Hypnos. Nice try, though.

tkitna
NW takes this. He's not your normal street level character.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Zack M
No, he isn't, but Dick doesn't go into battle like Wolverine. Wolverine can always rely on his healing factor. Plus, we've seen someone like Nightwing (Daredevil) dodge Punisher in the past. They go into battle differently.

Yeah, that's true. But Punisher has also beaten daredevil in the end too.

How often does Nightwing use hypnosis??

StiltmanFTW
Daredevil. Spider-Man. Wolverine (when he actually WAS trying to dodge, in his own series).

And there's this feat:

http://i.imgur.com/FWq0DOR.jpg

Zack M
Originally posted by Damborgson
Yeah, that's true. But Punisher has also beaten daredevil in the end too.

How often does Nightwing use hypnosis??

Whenever he needs to. I don't think they removed that implant. NW is also a lot more agile than logan.

cdtm
Got to love Castle. Genre savvy enough to know speedsters are idiots. smile

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Zack M
NW is also a lot more agile than logan.

He depends on acrobatics more, but no, he's not more agile.

Wolverine does have the enhanced sense of balance and superhuman attributes, Dick does not. Plus, he's been training with Nightcrawler, whose agility rivals that of Spider-Man --- which originally was meant to be Logan's agility lv, btw.

StiltmanFTW
http://i.imgur.com/lTyFcwj.png

http://i.imgur.com/3LdHw6H.png

https://i.imgur.com/zcNeeMs.png

http://i.imgur.com/O4y5wmJ.png

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He depends on acrobatics more, but no, he's not more agile.

Wolverine does have the enhanced sense of balance and superhuman attributes, Dick does not. Plus, he's been training with Nightcrawler, whose agility rivals that of Spider-Man --- which originally was meant to be Logan's agility lv, btw.

That is true. Logan is more enhanced, but I still say Dick has more raw talent, in terms of agility.

StiltmanFTW
Talent? Sure, he grew up in a freakin' circus and had genes and training of pro acrobats. One thing that's actually consistent, no matter the universe.

Thing is, inhuman agility is also a part of Logan's powerset, even though he often chooses not to rely on it.

He kept up with Parker when jumping through the city, he made HYDRA believe he's Beast (classic blue version, pre-Whedon) and so on.

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Talent? Sure, he grew up in a freakin' circus and had genes and training of pro acrobats. One thing that's actually consistent, no matter the universe.

Thing is, inhuman agility is also a part of Logan's powerset, even though he often chooses not to rely on it.

He kept up with Parker when jumping through the city, he made HYDRA believe he's Beast (classic blue version, pre-Whedon) and so on.

I know. Take away his enhanced stats, and NW has the edge there. Same would be said for Daredevil, IMO.

RadZoa
Nightwing would win this pretty easily, No seriously the Castle wank here is pretty ridiculous. Using ABC logic of "he tagged Spiderman" doesn't work, I can just as easily say that Dick has dodged gunfire from Deathstroke who would run circles around Castle as far as accuracy and gun skill go (along with everything else for that matter)

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by RadZoa
Nightwing would win this pretty easily, No seriously the Castle wank here is pretty ridiculous. Using ABC logic of "he tagged Spiderman" doesn't work, I can just as easily say that Dick has dodged gunfire from Deathstroke who would run circles around Castle as far as accuracy and gun skill go (along with everything else for that matter)

The fight starts with them half a kilometer apart (about five and a half football fields apart), in a featureless environment offering no cover, and only Castle has a long-distance high-velocity arsenal which can not only incapacitate, but kill. That would be tough for anyone under Spider-Man's agility level and without precognition or superhuman durability to close the distance and turn it into a brawl without getting shot multiple times.

If anything, there is plenty of Dick wanking going on... Pun not intended, but it's okay, laugh.

I know Nightwing has quite a few aim/bullet-dodging feats, even dodging fire from marksmen like Deathstroke. Feats are great to help gauge and quantify characters' abilities, especially on the higher end of the power scale. I've gotta say though, when it comes to street-levelers and bullet-dodging, too often are their feats displayed and the argument presented that they more or less can't be shot. Consistent feats are accepted as the norm and will be used as evidence in discussion, and my opinion of it all won't change that, but one can only suspend disbelief so much before it becomes utterly ridiculous.

-Pr-
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.imgur.com/zcNeeMs.png

Even after all this time it's still as retarded as I remember.

Zack M
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The fight starts with them half a kilometer apart (about five and a half football fields apart), in a featureless environment offering no cover, and only Castle has a long-distance high-velocity arsenal which can not only incapacitate, but kill. That would be tough for anyone under Spider-Man's agility level and without precognition or superhuman durability to close the distance and turn it into a brawl without getting shot multiple times.

If anything, there is plenty of Dick wanking going on... Pun not intended, but it's okay, laugh.

I know Nightwing has quite a few aim/bullet-dodging feats, even dodging fire from marksmen like Deathstroke. Feats are great to help gauge and quantify characters' abilities, especially on the higher end of the power scale. I've gotta say though, when it comes to street-levelers and bullet-dodging, too often are their feats displayed and the argument presented that they more or less can't be shot. Consistent feats are accepted as the norm and will be used as evidence in discussion, and my opinion of it all won't change that, but one can only suspend disbelief so much before it becomes utterly ridiculous.

Well, like I said before, NW can read body movements. He'll obviously know what Frank will do. And his Hypnos will prevent Frank from getting a good shot off. You can't ignore that.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Zack M
Well, like I said before, NW can read body movements. He'll obviously know what Frank will do. And his Hypnos will prevent Frank from getting a good shot off. You can't ignore that.

It's too farfetched for me to believe that Dick would be able to read Castle's body movements accurately from that great a distance.

I don't know much about the Hypnos tech. What kind of range does it have? And does it qualify as standard equipment, or is it something he'll only have for the next arc or two? Does it pass Stiltman's "no cheap shot" stipulation?

Flyattractor
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Talent? Sure, he grew up in a freakin' circus and had genes and training of pro acrobats. One thing that's actually consistent, no matter the universe.

Thing is, inhuman agility is also a part of Logan's powerset, even though he often chooses not to rely on it.

He kept up with Parker when jumping through the city, he made HYDRA believe he's Beast (classic blue version, pre-Whedon) and so on.

Yeah that is kind of true. Dick had to practice, prefect and work for his abilities, Little Jimmy was just born with his.

deathslash
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yeah that is kind of true. Dick had to practice, prefect and work for his abilities, Little Jimmy was just born with his. naw, Logan had to work for his agility as well. He way have been born with the reflexes, but he had to work to perfect it as well as making it a part of his fighting style.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by deathslash
naw, Logan had to work for his agility as well. He way have been born with the reflexes, but he had to work to perfect it as well as making it a part of his fighting style.


Nope. Mutant Powers. Not buying that line of reasoning at all.

Zack M
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It's too farfetched for me to believe that Dick would be able to read Castle's body movements accurately from that great a distance.

I don't know much about the Hypnos tech. What kind of range does it have? And does it qualify as standard equipment, or is it something he'll only have for the next arc or two? Does it pass Stiltman's "no cheap shot" stipulation?

He's been using it for a while now. So, it's standard equipment. I highly recommend Grayson. It use to be one of the best bat books around.

Supermutant
Originally posted by Damborgson
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/2981437-punishervsdakenpart13.jpg

He's not in for an easy run though, Frank is a hard man to put down.

Let me help you out b/c you seem to be missing the scan right before.

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/147508/4780036-1222+%281%29.jpg

^Another point blank dodge until the Pun bit his lip, but by then Daken had already gutted him.

Then later on another dodge by Daken against what appears to be a high tech automatic weapon. Which he lunges for and destroys, allowing Pun an opportunity to pull a side piece and shoot him in the head. So twice Daken was able to dodge high tech weapons of Pun and close the gap.

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4780038-1223+%281%29.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4780039-1223+%282%29.jpg

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Got to love Castle. Genre savvy enough to know speedsters are idiots. smile

Dodges boomerangs and blocks attacks from the speedster Cap Boomerang Jr.

http://i.imgur.com/SFS9o68.jpg

Dodges Jessic Quick's super speed kick.

http://i.imgur.com/nreoI06.jpg

Dodges Starfire's starbolt at close range.

http://i.imgur.com/8nFdxyo.jpg

Dodges Amazo's heat vision and impresses Wally West with his speed.

https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34466275_BatmanAmazo9.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34466276_titansrebirth1-nwspeedflashrespect.jpg

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
Let me help you out b/c you seem to be missing the scan right before.

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/147508/4780036-1222+%281%29.jpg

^Another point blank dodge until the Pun bit his lip, but by then Daken had already gutted him.

Then later on another dodge by Daken against what appears to be a high tech automatic weapon. Which he lunges for and destroys, allowing Pun an opportunity to pull a side piece and shoot him in the head. So twice Daken was able to dodge high tech weapons of Pun and close the gap.

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4780038-1223+%281%29.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4780039-1223+%282%29.jpg you're forgetting that Frank was tired and weaker than normal by the point that daken had been sent after him. Not only that, but you yourself just provided two examples of a legitimate bullet timer closing the gap only to get beaten back and shot to shit.

Supermutant
Originally posted by deathslash
you're forgetting that Frank was tired and weaker than normal by the point that daken had been sent after him. Not only that, but you yourself just provided two examples of a legitimate bullet timer closing the gap only to get beaten back and shot to shit.

He also had weapons that aren't standard gear for him, and was gutted before he got even one shot off.

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
He also had weapons that aren't standard gear for him, and was gutted before he got even one shot off. one of those fights was happening in an enclosed space and it didn't start from a football field away. Also, I'm failing to see why his usage of a blaster and an advanced SMG has any bearing in this fight. Hell, he still shot daken with a normal pistol in that second set of scans and Nightwing doesn't gut people. If anything, you posting scans of Frank fighting through getting impaled and gutted while he's not at 100% only makes him look even more impressive.

cdtm
thumb up

Frank doesn't need no pussy healing factor to fight while gutted.

Supermutant
Originally posted by deathslash
one of those fights was happening in an enclosed space and it didn't start from a football field away. Also, I'm failing to see why his usage of a blaster and an advanced SMG has any bearing in this fight. Hell, he still shot daken with a normal pistol in that second set of scans and Nightwing doesn't gut people. If anything, you posting scans of Frank fighting through getting impaled and gutted while he's not at 100% only makes him look even more impressive.

lol if one can dodge from an enclosed space, surely they can dodge from further away with more time to react. The entire fight with Daken and Wolverine for that matter has little bearing in this fight, we can agree on that. However it is worth noting that once again shots fired from Pun has been dodged, and the gap between him and his opponent closed quickly. And Dick has tasers which can ko Pun.

Pun does have an impressive damage soak which means he can take a beating, and NW will give him one.

More importantly Pun is in character so no head/kill shots on heroes. Meaning if NW was to get shot, it would be an area protected by his bullet-proof armor.

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
lol if one can dodge from an enclosed space, surely they can dodge from further away with more time to react. The entire fight with Daken and Wolverine for that matter has little bearing in this fight, we can agree on that. However it is worth noting that once again shots fired from Pun has been dodged, and the gap between him and his opponent closed quickly. And Dick has tasers which can ko Pun.

Pun does have an impressive damage soak which means he can take a beating, and NW will give him one.

More importantly Pun is in character so no head/kill shots on heroes. Meaning if NW was to get shot, it would be an area protected by his bullet-proof armor. further away with more time to react but nothing to move behind or move off of? As soon as dick leaves the ground, he's. Gonna get turned into swiss cheese.

Pretty sure that frank has powered thrpugh getting tasered before (think it was black widow too).

StiltmanFTW
Frank has great showings when it comes tanking electricity.

Supermutant
Originally posted by deathslash
further away with more time to react but nothing to move behind or move off of? As soon as dick leaves the ground, he's. Gonna get turned into swiss cheese.

Pretty sure that frank has powered thrpugh getting tasered before (think it was black widow too).

Yeah cause its not like NW can pop smoke or has projectiles of his own. Or use flash bombs. lol some here act like NW will be omg my opponent has a gun my only choice is to run straight at him w/o any cover or defense. B/c that how NW typically response against shooters that he has face his entire career starting with his first day as Robin.lol

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Frank has great showings when it comes tanking electricity.

He has also been put down by less like a punch/kick for DD. I mean this is Frank Castle right and not Thor Odinson. He can be put down? Or does CIS Spiderman extends to every one that Frank fight, and they automatically become newbies who forgot their powers and skills?

StiltmanFTW
He's also one-shotted DD.

Sure he can be put down, but it takes quite a lot.

Damborgson
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Frank has great showings when it comes tanking electricity.

http://http://i.imgur.com/TWoGeCy_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high
http://http://i.imgur.com/CLxvyUL_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high


Not bad, even if it wasn't pointed at him, he was still getting up.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He's also one-shotted DD.

Sure he can be put down, but it takes quite a lot.

Didn't Netflix Frank outright knock his block off? Trying to remember if there was context, but pretty sure in their initial scuffle, Matt simply straight up lost.

Zack M
Originally posted by Supermutant
Yeah cause its not like NW can pop smoke or has projectiles of his own. Or use flash bombs. lol some here act like NW will be omg my opponent has a gun my only choice is to run straight at him w/o any cover or defense. B/c that how NW typically response against shooters that he has face his entire career starting with his first day as Robin.lol

Stilt limited NW's gear. He doesn't have smoke bombs or anything. I guess Hypnos is still on the table. NW's armor and Hypnos are the only things keeping NW alive. LOL.

Might as well fight naked. stick out tongue

Zack M
Originally posted by deathslash
further away with more time to react but nothing to move behind or move off of? As soon as dick leaves the ground, he's. Gonna get turned into swiss cheese.

Pretty sure that frank has powered thrpugh getting tasered before (think it was black widow too).

How does Frank deal with Hypnos? He won't.

deathslash
Originally posted by Zack M
How does Frank deal with Hypnos? He won't. you have yet to answer the question of what the effective range of it is.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Damborgson
http://http://i.imgur.com/TWoGeCy_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high
http://http://i.imgur.com/CLxvyUL_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high


Not bad, even if it wasn't pointed at him, he was still getting up.

Links don't work for me. Anyone else has this problem?

StiltmanFTW
Nvm, fixed:

http://i.imgur.com/TWoGeCy_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

http://i.imgur.com/CLxvyUL_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

Frank did embarrass Thor later for that stick out tongue

Zack M
Originally posted by deathslash
you have yet to answer the question of what the effective range of it is.

There hasn't been any limit. IIRC, the guy who invented it, used it in a whole crowd. Nobody saw his face.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nvm, fixed:

http://i.imgur.com/TWoGeCy_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

http://i.imgur.com/CLxvyUL_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

Frank did embarrass Thor later for that stick out tongue

What did he do, show Thor his entire comic book life? smile

StiltmanFTW
Thor needed a drinking buddy badly that day laughing out loud

The moment Castle wakes up, they drink together and Thor lets him go... only to get bukkake'd with Spider-Man's webshooter at the end of that mini.

deathslash
Originally posted by Zack M
There hasn't been any limit. IIRC, the guy who invented it, used it in a whole crowd. Nobody saw his face. and how often does dick use this? What's the level of power?

Supermutant
Originally posted by Zack M
Stilt limited NW's gear. He doesn't have smoke bombs or anything. I guess Hypnos is still on the table. NW's armor and Hypnos are the only things keeping NW alive. LOL.

Might as well fight naked. stick out tongue

Using gas to ko and using smoke or flares for cover is different. If the later would be considered a cheap shot (and it shouldn't) then surely hypnos would be.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He's also one-shotted DD.

Sure he can be put down, but it takes quite a lot.

And DD has also one-shotted him more times than vice versa. The only times I remember Castle winning against DD is either one sided prep (which he doesn't have here) or sonics. I'm also pretty sure Frank has admitted that he's no match for DD h2h or something similar.

StiltmanFTW
Only under Ennis.

Frank's been consistently giving DD a run for his money...

Zack M
Punisher also owned Wolverine under Ennis. stick out tongue

Damborgson
Originally posted by cdtm
What did he do, show Thor his entire comic book life? smile

http://http://i.imgur.com/NwJxkx4.jpg


He really did want to have a beer with him. laughing out loud

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Only under Ennis.

Frank's been consistently giving DD a run for his money...

Miller had him tranc Matt outright.

He also blasted Matt's stick out of the air.. Miller Punisher was AWESOME.

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
And DD has also one-shotted him more times than vice versa. The only times I remember Castle winning against DD is either one sided prep (which he doesn't have here) or sonics. I'm also pretty sure Frank has admitted that he's no match for DD h2h or something similar. erm he's outright beaten daredevil in h2h before.......

RadZoa
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The fight starts with them half a kilometer apart (about five and a half football fields apart), in a featureless environment offering no cover, and only Castle has a long-distance high-velocity arsenal which can not only incapacitate, but kill. That would be tough for anyone under Spider-Man's agility level and without precognition or superhuman durability to close the distance and turn it into a brawl without getting shot multiple times.

If anything, there is plenty of Dick wanking going on... Pun not intended, but it's okay, laugh.

I know Nightwing has quite a few aim/bullet-dodging feats, even dodging fire from marksmen like Deathstroke. Feats are great to help gauge and quantify characters' abilities, especially on the higher end of the power scale. I've gotta say though, when it comes to street-levelers and bullet-dodging, too often are their feats displayed and the argument presented that they more or less can't be shot. Consistent feats are accepted as the norm and will be used as evidence in discussion, and my opinion of it all won't change that, but one can only suspend disbelief so much before it becomes utterly ridiculous.

Nightwing is FASTER than Bruce who's already shown to be able to dodge 3600 FPS Sniper Rounds with his back turned. Unless Frank is packing something with such an outrageous velocity (no Earth based firearm) than he's not going to tag Dick.

I understand that Punisher has some insane weaponry though so I'm not elimianting that possibility. That being said this scenario seems heavily in favor of Punisher.

DTM
Punisher has shot Daredevil and Spider-Man several times, if he can do that, he can tag Nightwing, and hell, its not like hes not able to hold his own against Nightwing close up anyway.

Zack M
Originally posted by DTM
Punisher has shot Daredevil and Spider-Man several times, if he can do that, he can tag Nightwing, and hell, its not like hes not able to hold his own against Nightwing close up anyway.

Dick is bullet proof, so he has some protection.

RadZoa
Originally posted by DTM
Punisher has shot Daredevil and Spider-Man several times, if he can do that, he can tag Nightwing, and hell, its not like hes not able to hold his own against Nightwing close up anyway. Nightwing has dodged bullets from Deathstroke several times, if he can do that he can dodge Punisher.

That ABC logic works both ways

Supermutant
Originally posted by deathslash
erm he's outright beaten daredevil in h2h before.......

You are going to have to prove this. The best I've ever seen Punisher was get a temporary stalemate although he would be worse off in strictly h2h.

Another instance of DD dodging Punisher's bullets and closing the gap to own him.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpa1.jpg

And other one

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc1.jpg

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc2.jpg

So in this thread I've posted three time where DD has dodged gunshots from Frank and closed the gap.

Where is the evidence that NW gets hits by bullets from shooters that would significantly damage him?

Not only has he evaded gunfire from Slade, but also Red Hood.

Anyway below are mostly full battles between DD and Pun. DD definitely looks better.

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/

Some quotes from Pun describing DD like I mentioned earlier, "He's faster than me"..."He's too good."

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Miller had him tranc Matt outright.

He also blasted Matt's stick out of the air.. Miller Punisher was AWESOME.

I think a lot of Punisher's supporters are really mis-remembering his encounters with DD, to say it politely.

Frank blasting Matt's billy club didn't end well for him.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc3.jpg
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc4.jpg

This tactic of using a stick as a distraction can easily be replicated by NW against Punisher as well.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by -Pr-
Even after all this time it's still as retarded as I remember.

The blade is magical, that's how it was able to repel Scott's blast.

As for the speed required... you yourself love to downplay the optic blast speed to mere bullet level, so I don't see the problem stick out tongue

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
I think a lot of Punisher's supporters are really mis-remembering his encounters with DD, to say it politely.

You're just cherry-picking.

And Dick is inferior to DD.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You're just cherry-picking.

And Dick is inferior to DD.

The thing is I am not. I am asking for DD vs Pun h2h encounters where Pun wins or even looks better in a stalemate. Every h2h battle that I've seen between the two DD wins or looks better in a stalemate. So yeah If I am wrong, show me? I don't think I've seen all there fights but probably most.

Also Dick isn't inferior to DD by much, and his gear plus training/fighting crime since a child significantly narrows the very small edge I would give DD against him. NW is certainly closer to DD's level of skill than Punisher.

Again Punisher own thoughts clearly shows that DD is better.

"Sick of you predicting my every move before I even think it."

http://s6d8.turboimagehost.com/t/34471063_Oc0ZmL8.jpg

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
I think a lot of Punisher's supporters are really mis-remembering his encounters with DD, to say it politely.

Frank blasting Matt's billy club didn't end well for him.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc3.jpg
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc4.jpg

This tactic of using a stick as a distraction can easily be replicated by NW against Punisher as well.

The hell? Is that Daredevil vs Punisher the series? O_o

That's not the example I was talking about, but I've read it. Castle only lost because he accidentially shot a man, and realized he was losing control:


Here's what happens after your blatant cherry picked of a scan. Castle fights on.

And here's the real reason he lost.

cdtm
And HERE is the real reason he lost! wink

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
The hell? Is that Daredevil vs Punisher the series? O_o

That's not the example I was talking about, but I've read it. Castle only lost because he accidentially shot a man, and realized he was losing control:


Here's what happens after your blatant cherry picked of a scan. Castle fights on.


And here's the real reason he lost.

Cherry picking lol, I already gave the link to the whole freaking arc.


Originally posted by Supermutant
.

Anyway below are mostly full battles between DD and Pun. DD definitely looks better.

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/

but again here is what happen when you left off

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc6.jpg
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc7.jpg
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc8.jpg https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc9.jpghttp://

So yeah DD hits Pun with a pressure point strike leaving that arm useless. DD's ability to keep dodging Pun's attacks cause him to shoot a civilian by accident.

DD was already in control of the fight before he made Pun lose control. That's even more impressive by DD, that his agility frustrated Pun so much, that DD ended taking him out with one baton throw to the face.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc9.jpg

cdtm
Hardly a stomp, whatever your interpretation. Castle was very much in that fight before the kill.

Castle has stood up to Matt across several writers, like Ann Nocenti here:

http://heroicuniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Daredevil-Vol-1-184-Part-2-776x580.jpg

You could find countless examples of him giving as good as he gets against martial artists, metas, ect..

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
You are going to have to prove this. The best I've ever seen Punisher was get a temporary stalemate although he would be worse off in strictly h2h.

Another instance of DD dodging Punisher's bullets and closing the gap to own him.

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpa1.jpg

And other one

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc1.jpg

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dpc2.jpg

So in this thread I've posted three time where DD has dodged gunshots from Frank and closed the gap.

Where is the evidence that NW gets hits by bullets from shooters that would significantly damage him?

Not only has he evaded gunfire from Slade, but also Red Hood.

Anyway below are mostly full battles between DD and Pun. DD definitely looks better.

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/

Some quotes from Pun describing DD like I mentioned earlier, "He's faster than me"..."He's too good." since when has sweeping your opponents legs meant ownage? Also, in that second set of scans, Frank himself says that he was just trying to get Matt's attention. I'm at work right now, but when I get home, I'll see if I can find some of their fights.

I just want to leave you with one thought though. I'd like to see you prove that dick can beat someone with the level of pain tolerance and training that Frank has when he's had trouble with the joker in the past.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/24179/1077269-530982_009823831_super.png

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Hardly a stomp, whatever your interpretation. Castle was very much in that fight before the kill.

Castle has stood up to Matt across several writers, like Ann Nocenti here:

http://heroicuniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Daredevil-Vol-1-184-Part-2-776x580.jpg

You could find countless examples of him giving as good as he gets against martial artists, metas, ect..

Here we go again trying to move the goal posts. I never said DD always stomp Frank. I do continue to stand by my statement that DD has never lost to Frank h2h. I also like your confession that what I had already posted was accurate and not cherry picking.

Furthermore who is arguing that Frank can't give a good fight to DD? He has highs and lows like every other character, but he has never beaten DD h2h that I know of.

Even with that scan you posted DD disarmed Frank and gets more shots in. I'm glad you posted that, here is more proof that DD skill simply outclasses Pun. Once again below he avoids Pun knife attack and disarm his of his gun.

And this isn't my interpretation, its the actually battle results that some here seems bent on trying to ignore.

http://imgur.com/a/cDHR5

Supermutant
Originally posted by deathslash
since when has sweeping your opponents legs meant ownage? Also, in that second set of scans, Frank himself says that he was just trying to get Matt's attention. I'm at work right now, but when I get home, I'll see if I can find some of their fights.

Since when has a successful attack against your opponents not meant ownage. LOL @ the mental gymnastics going on to try and discredit DD's much better fighting skills than Frank. And the links I have posted are full of DD performing much better against Pun, owning him much more than vice versa. Even when Punisher got mad and said the gloves are coming off, he still couldn't tag DD. And Punisher had prep for that encounter you mention, DD knew it was a trap, and still DD owned him.

Originally posted by deathslash
I just want to leave you with one thought though. I'd like to see you prove that dick can beat someone with the level of pain tolerance and training that Frank has when he's had trouble with the joker in the past.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/24179/1077269-530982_009823831_super.png

lol Are you even trying? Let me introduce you to Joker: Last Laugh Issue #6. Where NW after owning a bunch of Jokerized villains including the super strong Mammoth, and dodging Joker shooting at him, beats the Joker to death

https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472857_RCO011.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472859_RCO014.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472862_RCO015.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472863_RCO016.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472866_RCO021.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472870_RCO022.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34472872_RCO023.jpg

Guess who in his very first appearance as Robin dodges shots at close range from both Joker and Two-Face with twin pistols. Then proceed to one shot Joker knocking some teeth out of his mouth.

http://s6d8.turboimagehost.com/t/34472968_dark-vic-robin.jpghttp://s6d8.turboimagehost.com/t/34472997_9874484.jpg

Now ask yourself these questions: Has Dick Grayson gotten faster since his first appearance as Robin at age 10? Has Dick gotten more agile and acrobatic? Has he developed more fighting skills? Has his gear gotten better? Shouldn't adult NW be better at dodging bullets than 10 year old Dick wearing a leotard?

Supermutant
Just to re-emphasize this point--In this thread I have been accused of cherry picking scans although, I had already posted the link to the entire comic arc.

Deathslash attempted to use a scan where Joker has a momentary upperhand, but NW dominated the rest of the fight and beat Joker to death. Now this ladies and gentleman is cherry picking and getting caught very badly.

TethAdamTheRock
Nightwing

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
Here we go again trying to move the goal posts. I never said DD always stomp Frank. I do continue to stand by my statement that DD has never lost to Frank h2h. I also like your confession that what I had already posted was accurate and not cherry picking.

Furthermore who is arguing that Frank can't give a good fight to DD? He has highs and lows like every other character, but he has never beaten DD h2h that I know of.

Even with that scan you posted DD disarmed Frank and gets more shots in. I'm glad you posted that, here is more proof that DD skill simply outclasses Pun. Once again below he avoids Pun knife attack and disarm his of his gun.

And this isn't my interpretation, its the actually battle results that some here seems bent on trying to ignore.

http://imgur.com/a/cDHR5 just wanted to note, in daredevil issue 183, Frank beats Matt through the use of a tranque dart after landing the exact same amount of hits that Matt landed on him and this was after Matt attacked him from behind and initiated the fight.

deathslash
Originally posted by Supermutant
Just to re-emphasize this point--In this thread I have been accused of cherry picking scans although, I had already posted the link to the entire comic arc.

Deathslash attempted to use a scan where Joker has a momentary upperhand, but NW dominated the rest of the fight and beat Joker to death. Now this ladies and gentleman is cherry picking and getting caught very badly. 1.nightwing was literally bloodlusted in that fight.
2. The joker has literally no hand to hand training and was still giving him a fight.
3. Does the joker (who has no training whatsoever) have the same level of skill as the punisher?
4. Does the Joker have the same level of accuracy as the punisher?
5. Is it worth noting that the joker shot several of his allies in that very same fight?

cdtm
Originally posted by deathslash
just wanted to note, in daredevil issue 183, Frank beats Matt through the use of a tranque dart after landing the exact same amount of hits that Matt landed on him and this was after Matt attacked him from behind and initiated the fight.

thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
Here we go again trying to move the goal posts. I never said DD always stomp Frank. I do continue to stand by my statement that DD has never lost to Frank h2h. I also like your confession that what I had already posted was accurate and not cherry picking.

Furthermore who is arguing that Frank can't give a good fight to DD? He has highs and lows like every other character, but he has never beaten DD h2h that I know of.

Even with that scan you posted DD disarmed Frank and gets more shots in. I'm glad you posted that, here is more proof that DD skill simply outclasses Pun. Once again below he avoids Pun knife attack and disarm his of his gun.

And this isn't my interpretation, its the actually battle results that some here seems bent on trying to ignore.

http://imgur.com/a/cDHR5

Saying "Hardly a stomp, whatever YOUR interpretation" is an admission how, exactly?

You're the one who posted a single scan as if the fight was over. (And the link, how thoughtful. Why even post that one scan?)

That Matt had the upper hand in h2h in a single run is simply reading the work. It also flies against other showings where Frank holds his own, and Frank wasn't even put down by Matt until he was mentally out of the fight by an event that can't possibly happen in the arena (Not unless the op specifies innocenf bystanders.)

Zack M
I don't know why people think Frank will just shoot Grayson in the face. He never does that, anyway. Unless its Logan, laughing out loud

cdtm
Trancs.

Zack M
Body armor. Hypnos.

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