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Okay, these two Jedi Masters face off against one another.

TCW Plo Koon
TPM Qui-Gon Jinn

Using Legends for both.

1. Sparring match (pure lightsaber skills)
2. All out (no morals)
3. Force battle (no lightsabers)



Without really going into analysing it, I reckon it would be:

1. Jinn
2. Jinn/Plo Koon
3. Plo Koon

Not sure, tbh. Plo at least would take Force, IMO.

Probably Plo in all.

Plo in all, yeah. Good fight, though.

Lol Jinn wins all

Jinn, but it's close.

koon sweeps

Split

I'd say Jinn at least takes sparring definitively, and in my opinion he could probably contend if not beat Plo Koon in all in and force.

Beating a pre prime ventress(who was a superior version of the one who beat fisto(with a form advantage)while injured and outclassing oppress(sorry folks, but pulling someone's mask off when a fight's interrupted and your opponent's distracted doesn't make up for only being able to parry one strike of their saber before getting injured under normal circumstances) tells me he could take sabers too

Plo

Jinn
Jinn
Plo

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
outclassing oppress(sorry folks, but pulling someone's mask off when a fight's interrupted and your opponent's distracted doesn't make up for only being able to parry one strike of their saber before getting injured under normal circumstances)


More excuses for Opress vs Koon I see.

Opress won because he was stronger. Deal with it.

They should really be near equals as duelists in all honesty.

But that said Jinn get the edge.

Force goes to Koon, he's more versatile than Jinn and is probably gonna wreck.


All out, eh who knows.

Anoon Bondara thinks to himself that Qui-Gon and Mace were superior duelists to himself. The fact that he mentions those two together puts Jinn in quite high esteem.

That just means Jinn > Anoon & Mace > Anoon.
In no way that suggests parity between Mace & Jinn lol.

Yeah but he refers specifically to those two masters. I'm not at all saying Mace and Jinn are equals. It's just that Jinn is held in quite high esteem if he's mentioned alongside Mace.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
More excuses for Opress vs Koon I see.

Opress won because he was stronger. Deal with it.
Winning doesn't always mean you're stronger
And clearly given what happened under normal circumstances and how the victory came about, oppress was weaker

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Beating a pre prime ventress(who was a superior version of the one who beat fisto(with a form advantage)while injured and outclassing oppress(sorry folks, but pulling someone's mask off when a fight's interrupted and your opponent's distracted doesn't make up for only being able to parry one strike of their saber before getting injured under normal circumstances) tells me he could take sabers too

How is that indicative of Plo Koon being better in sabers? Jinn would have no problem beating Ventress in lightsaber combat, and he is known to have beaten Anoon Bondara, a master of all seven forms and practitioner of Form VII in sparring. He was a student of Dooku, and had fought many times with his old master. There's just simply no way that he isn't good.

plo scales off qui-gon as a duelist and has better force feats and equal force hype.

He wins.

Too close to call.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
plo scales off qui-gon as a duelist and has better force feats and equal force hype.

He wins.

He "scales" off Qui-Gon? How?

Kbro accepted that Savage > Plo.

I don't see how Jinn is so underrated. He's an 8. Gillard confirms that Maul/Dooku are 8, albeit two levels of 8. Jinn is probably just below Maul as an 8, but definitely clearly superior to any 7, which I think puts him above most of the lower council members.

Who could beat/contend with Qui-Gon in the Jedi Council? I think Jinn could take on any of the B-team and win in lightsabers . He's the apprentice of Dooku and has sparred thousands of times with a Jedi who was matched only by Windu/Yoda. The duel with Maul has really caused Jinn to be seen as some weak old Jedi who can't fight. He beat Anoon Bondarra in sparring, Form IV against Form VII, that's highly impressive.

Originally posted by samappo
He "scales" off Qui-Gon? How?
TPM Kenobi was close to Qui-Gon as a combatant. AOTC Kenobi was < Fisto. And Fisto was outperformed by Plo Koon when facing an inferior version of Ventress.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Kbro accepted that Savage > Plo.
I did, but tat's because a new interpretation of what was happening in certain scans came out. Not due to arguments Darth Thor have made like :

"Context doesn't matter"

"Oppress cheapshotted better than Plo Koon did"

"The force makes force users immune to being distracted"

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
TPM Kenobi was close to Qui-Gon as a combatant. AOTC Kenobi was < Fisto. And Fisto was outperformed by Plo Koon when facing an inferior version of Ventress.

Nice, using the A > B > C Therefore A > C ? That's flawed logic.

TPM Kenobi isn't near Jinn as a combatant. Jinn is an 8, Kenobi is a 7 in both TPM AND AOTC. Fisto is also a 7. Jinn is automatically above both of them, and since the tier system increases exponentially, Jinn has a clear cut edge.

How is Fisto outperformed?

Originally posted by samappo
Nice, using the A > B > C Therefore A > C ? That's flawed logic.

Uh, no, it's not. Saying the dude who performs better against a better opponent is prolly better isn't flawed logic. You're watching too much silent bat I think. I've factored for context. Explain why the context compensates for the gap in performance and I'll reconsider.

Originally posted by samappo
TPM Kenobi isn't near Jinn as a combatant. Jinn is an 8, Kenobi is a 7 in both TPM AND AOTC. Fisto is also a 7. Jinn is automatically above both of them, and since the tier system increases exponentially, Jinn has a clear cut edge.

Jinn was never stated to be an 8 anywhere. Furthermore, it's perfectly possible to have a high 7 compete well with a low 8.

TPM Kenobi has been implied to be close to Jinn several times. (Greysetinel has quotes)
Originally posted by samappo
How is Fisto outperformed?
Fisto fought and lost to an inferior version of Ventress.
Plo Koon tied a superior version of Ventress.

Both were injured. Though Fisto did admittedly have a style disadvantage.

17 year old Kenobi rivals Qui Gon.

Jinn isn't really a gimp force user either, just because he doesn't display feats .

"I know that some of you have discussed Master Qui-Gon Jinn as a possible candidate. But I would counsel caution. Despite his mastery of the Force, he is headstrong and willful." - Windu

Source: Jedi Council: Acts of War 4

Just to add to his repotroire as a swordsman:

"Tahl's face was a mask. She had gone deep within herself, past her exhaustion to a place of sheer will. Qui-Gon had never felt so tired. His arm muscles shook. His legs felt watery. They trembled. Still he did not stop or make a mistake."

Source: Jedi Apprentice: The Death of Hope

Even when exhausted, Jinn doesn't make mistakes.

Or this:

"Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen."

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Or:

"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order." - TPM Novel

He's also a master of Makashi:

"Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy."

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Yeah, Koon's hype is better. Koon scales off force users with the "best swordsmen in history thing" and additionally, unlike qui-gon, is hyped as one of the most powerful jedi in history.

Add superior forc ehype to superior force feats as well as the scaling Koon gets, and there really isn't much of a case for Qui-Gon here.

Force feats don't determine victors among Jedi unless the gap is vast. Lightsaber skills do. Unlike Plo, Qui Gon has been hyped as one of the best in history.

Fisto's defeat at Ventress's hands in Cestus Deception, is more and more looking like a scenario where circumstances played a bigger role. I mean, Obi Wan defeats Ventress in the novel, and Obi Wan as of then was made out to be inferior to Fisto. Fisto's foot injury, and his stylistic disadvantage against Ventress may have played significant roles in the fight.

If we consider that styles make fights, then Plo's Djem So would have an edge over Ventress's Makashi.

Please quote the "hype" that you keep hyping about.

@LordOfTheLight That's very true. Jinn is stated as being one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the entire order. He's a student of Dooku who has sparred in a thousand matches with his old master, and competed and matched a young Darth Maul who was even for that time considered one of the most trained Sith of all time. His age was his real downfall. I wonder why he didn't resort to Makashi to buy himself time until Obi-Wan could join him in the pit room.

Also, I think a forgotten aspect about the Duel of Fates was the surprise/confusion factor of the double bladed lightsaber.

I meant the statement itself. The one where he is stated to be one of the best swordsmen in history.

Though there are other forms of hype, as well. Qui Gon was the best padawan of his generation, like Obi Wan. Dooku in particular, regarded him very highly. And Jedi who are supposed to be the best in the order like Anoon Bondara, humbled themselves in front of Qui Gon.

Yeah. That, and the fact that the environment made it "incredibly" difficult for the Jedi.

Makashi would be even more vulnerable to Juyo than it is to Djem So. Juyo is the most aggressive and kinetic of all the 7 forms. Only Vaapad is more powerful, and it is basically Juyo extended and enhanced.

If your opponent is more skilled than you, Soresu would be the go-to option for buying time. Else you have to resort to aggression. I'd say Djem So would fare pretty well against Juyo, being the perfect mixture of offense and defense. Ataru is an aggressive form however, and Jedi in general are just not as aggressive as Sith. Ataru's defense is the weakest of all 7 forms. So, it is not a good combination for the Jedi, who will likely fall back due to being less aggressive, and then on, it's pretty much over. Of course, this is for comparably skilled opponents, which Qui Gon and Maul were.

I was asking Rockydonovang to provide the Plo Koon hype. Anyway, Dooku wanted the best of the best for his padawan, and that's why he chose Jinn.