Sunny (Badlands) vs. Nobu/Crossbones

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carthage
Rumlow has his Knives/armor
Nobu has his Shoge Chain/Shuriken

Sunny as of Season 1 with twin Katanas

Who wins

FrothByte
Nobu vs Sunny is already a pretty hard match to call, with maybe a slight edge going to Sunny. But adding Crossbones make this a stomp.

KingD19
Sunny would beat Nobu with his feats. And it's a bit harder with Rumlow, but definitely not impossible after lasting against the Dark Ones, and basically everything else he's done.

TheVaultDweller
Sunny would solidly take any of the Netflix characters 1-on-1, IMO, with the exception of Luke Cage. I don't see any of them coming close to replicating his warehouse fight scene (again, except Luke, who could just bulldozer through everyone), where he fought like 40-50 guys in total, sometime fending off attacks from like 5 armed opponents at once. Or lasting as long as he did against the 3 Dark Monks, who had legit superpowers.

Adding Rumlow into the mix definitely makes a difference though, and gives the team a realistic shot at winning.

FrothByte
Sunny only lasted against 2 of the monks while they were in human form and he couldn't even beat human Cung Le. As soon as they went dark mode he was completely stomped.

My point is that he has never gone up against a superhuman and actually done well. Crossbones is superhuman, maybe not to the extent of a dark monk (or maybe he is, we won't know till we get more feats from the monks) but Crossbones is still more powerful than any foe Sunny has beaten.

TheVaultDweller
I would argue that they weren't completely human level, even at base form. In some shots, we see that same speed-blur effect as shown in full Dark One mode, to show enhanced speed. And the Monk Sunny fought 1-on-1 in "human" mode kicked him hard enough to send him flying back probably 10+ feet, landing on that car, something which Crossbones can only do with his piston arms. In Dark One mode, he hit Sunny hard enough to smash him through 2 walls. And yes, they did stomp him, because they literally fought him 3-on-1, in Dark One mode. So, that isn't evidence that they would beat him with the same level of ease 1-on-1, even in Dark One mode.

Also, that doesn't negate Sunny's other feats, which Crossbones doesn't have. His feats of note involve fighting an unarmed Cap, and losing both times. So, your logic applies to Crossbones as well. He has never beaten a foe as powerful as Sunny, but the difference is that Sunny has other feats to draw on as well.

KingD19
ALso, main point.

Strength feats mean mostly nothing here. Sunny kills at least a dozen people with his swords per episode he fights. He's the most known and feared Clipper in the Badlands with hundreds of kills under his belt. This is a sword fight, and he is a superhuman to an extreme in that regard.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by KingD19
ALso, main point.

Strength feats mean mostly nothing here. Sunny kills at least a dozen people with his swords per episode he fights. He's the most known and feared Clipper in the Badlands with hundreds of kills under his belt. This is a sword fight, and he is a superhuman to an extreme in that regard.

Sunny isn't exactly weak, strength-wise, either. He's been shown to easily break opponents' bones with casual moves, as well as fold a guy double (see his opening S1 fight against the nomads), send people flying with some of his strikes, dropkick the Widow through a solid brick wall, and block simultaneous blows from multiple opponents while using only one arm.

The only person of note Crossbones has actually bested was Black Widow. And I consider her to be below Sunny, except in a ranged fight (considering he has no ranged weapons). And even then, Rumlow didn't outfight her. She landed way more hits. Crossbones won because he could tank her taser (he is not tanking a sword through the neck), and manhandled her during her moment of surprise when the taser had no effect (which he won't be able to do nearly as easily against an opponent who, by feats, is much stronger than Natasha). In contrast, Sunny schooled Badlands Widow without actually being tagged once, and without drawing his second sword.

Dreampanther
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
In contrast, Sunny schooled Badlands Widow without actually being tagged once, and without drawing his second sword.

And boy howdy, does she now have an insane list of feats added to her repertoire after the Season 2 Episode 1 fight.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by Dreampanther
And boy howdy, does she now have an insane list of feats added to her repertoire after the Season 2 Episode 1 fight.

Yeah, steamrolling through the Clippers assigned as the Baron and Baroness' bodyguards, casually deflecting crossbow bolts with her swords etc. was pretty insane. She literally killed 5 Clippers with 2 throwing stars.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Sunny isn't exactly weak, strength-wise, either. He's been shown to easily break opponents' bones with casual moves, as well as fold a guy double (see his opening S1 fight against the nomads), send people flying with some of his strikes, dropkick the Widow through a solid brick wall, and block simultaneous blows from multiple opponents while using only one arm.

The only person of note Crossbones has actually bested was Black Widow. And I consider her to be below Sunny, except in a ranged fight (considering he has no ranged weapons). And even then, Rumlow didn't outfight her. She landed way more hits. Crossbones won because he could tank her taser (he is not tanking a sword through the neck), and manhandled her during her moment of surprise when the taser had no effect (which he won't be able to do nearly as easily against an opponent who, by feats, is much stronger than Natasha). In contrast, Sunny schooled Badlands Widow without actually being tagged once, and without drawing his second sword.

The Badlands utilize a high degree of wire-fu, which means people flying from hits isn't all that uncommon. Pretty sure every main fighter in the show has sent a person flying with a hit at some point or another. Probably even Tilda. I choose not consider that as super strength but as simply the show's stylishness. But if you want to consider that superstrength I can't really offer a counter argument, other than the necessity to consider them all super strong as a result.

And despite the blurring effect of the monks' kicks it didn't seem like Sunny move faster than normal to avoid it so I don't attribute super speed on it. And even before he got triple teamed by the dark monks, he already got completely owned by dark monk Cung Le so it's not like he only lost because it was 3 on 1. It was already a hopeless fight for him 1 on 1, just went by faster 3 on 1.

I'll have to rewatch that warehouse fight because that's the best feat he has, but if I remember correctly he never took on all of them at the same time. Probably 10 max at one point? Not exactly impossible when it comes to action movie heroes.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
The Badlands utilize a high degree of wire-fu, which means people flying from hits isn't all that uncommon. Pretty sure every main fighter in the show has sent a person flying with a hit at some point or another. Probably even Tilda. I choose not consider that as super strength but as simply the show's stylishness. But if you want to consider that superstrength I can't really offer a counter argument, other than the necessity to consider them all super strong as a result.

I choose to view at as enhanced strength. And, in anyways, his strength feats go beyond that. As I mentioned, he can do things like dropkick people through solid walls, as well as do things like casually break a man's arm with a twist of his wrist, and block multiple enemy blows with a single arm. Don't see how you can chalk that up to style.

Originally posted by FrothByte

And despite the blurring effect of the monks' kicks it didn't seem like Sunny move faster than normal to avoid it so I don't attribute super speed on it. And even before he got triple teamed by the dark monks, he already got completely owned by dark monk Cung Le so it's not like he only lost because it was 3 on 1. It was already a hopeless fight for him 1 on 1, just went by faster 3 on 1.

How did he get completely owned? They fought pretty evenly, Cung Le got a kick in that sent him flying, and then Sunny cut his robe with a sword slash, at which point they went Dark One mode on him. Sunny literally got tagged once during the entire exchange (the kick that sent him flying). I never said he could beat them while they were in Dark One mode, even one-on-one, but you can't dismiss the fact that they were not only using their powers, but fighting in complete sync with each other as well, when they brought him down.

Originally posted by FrothByte

I'll have to rewatch that warehouse fight because that's the best feat he has, but if I remember correctly he never took on all of them at the same time. Probably 10 max at one point? Not exactly impossible when it comes to action movie heroes.

"Not exactly impossible" is not much of an argument, especially when the person we are comparing him with has no feats on that level. I don't see anyone in the MCU below Super Soldier level replicating that feat.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I choose to view at as enhanced strength. And, in anyways, his strength feats go beyond that. As I mentioned, he can do things like dropkick people through solid walls, as well as do things like casually break a man's arm with a twist of his wrist, and block multiple enemy blows with a single arm. Don't see how you can chalk that up to style.


Majority of regular martial artists have the ability to break another man's arm with a twist of their own arm. It's not really a strength thing, more to do with levering and angle. Same can be said with blocking a blow. Blocking with a part of you close to your body is stronger than blocking with something extended. Blocking with your arm will always be stronger than the punch being delivered to it. It's not a strength game but it can be a durability feat.

Dropkicking people through walls, again, multiple fighters in the show do that. If you're saying that Sunny has super strength then we must attribute super strength to all the fighters in the show (though in varying degrees). Because in order for them to fight him decently (even M.K.) they must have some degree of superstrength themselves right?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

How did he get completely owned? They fought pretty evenly, Cung Le got a kick in that sent him flying, and then Sunny cut his robe with a sword slash, at which point they went Dark One mode on him. Sunny literally got tagged once during the entire exchange (the kick that sent him flying). I never said he could beat them while they were in Dark One mode, even one-on-one, but you can't dismiss the fact that they were not only using their powers, but fighting in complete sync with each other as well, when they brought him down.

He fought an unarmed human Cung Le while he himself had the advantage of a weapon and he still got the worse end of that fight. Cung Le then changed to dark mode and, while having his back turned, managed to break Sunny's sword even though it was a blind shot then kicked him hard enough that he couldn't immediately recover. That's pretty much getting pwned since Sunny was completely ineffective against Cung Le.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

"Not exactly impossible" is not much of an argument, especially when the person we are comparing him with has no feats on that level. I don't see anyone in the MCU below Super Soldier level replicating that feat.

IP Man managed to do it. Fight 10 guys I mean. I don't think he can take on Crossbones either. Black Widow and Hawkeye consistently take on groups of fodder without any issues. Maybe not 10 to 1 but still high enough that I don't think they'll have problems with a 10:1 ratio as long as the fodder is crappy (like the ones Sunny fought).


In a way, you've convinced me that Sunny is cleanly above Nobu and might even give Crossbones a bit of trouble. But I stand firm that he can't beat Nobu and Crossbones together.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
Majority of regular martial artists have the ability to break another man's arm with a twist of their own arm. It's not really a strength thing, more to do with levering and angle. Same can be said with blocking a blow. Blocking with a part of you close to your body is stronger than blocking with something extended. Blocking with your arm will always be stronger than the punch being delivered to it. It's not a strength game but it can be a durability feat.

You might need to rewatch some of the fights. Because I have never seen a real world martial artist do similar to what Sunny did with the same casual ease he did it. Especially not in an actual combat environment. Also, he doesn't simply huddle in and catch the shots. In multiple instances, he extends his arm, braces, and blocks simultaneous hits from more than one opponent.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Dropkicking people through walls, again, multiple fighters in the show do that. If you're saying that Sunny has super strength then we must attribute super strength to all the fighters in the show (though in varying degrees). Because in order for them to fight him decently (even M.K.) they must have some degree of superstrength themselves right?

Sunny is the only fighter on the show, other than the Dark Ones, to smash anyone through a brick wall. The Widow never did it. Quinn never did it. Zephyr never did it. Jacobee never did it. Tilda never did it. M.K. only did it to Jacobee when in Dark One mode. And Cung Le Dark Monk did it at the end.

And what are you actually saying here? Should we ignore something we actually see him do onscreen, because you don't think he should have super strength? If he can do that and other people can compete with him physically, then yes, they also do have a degree of super strength. We don't simply dismiss what people can do onscreen because they aren't explicitly stated to be superhuman. If he can do that while not explicitly being superhuman, that simply mean that humans in that universe are capable of becoming that strong. Like peak humans in Watchmen being able to potentially catch a bullet, or humans in the F&F franchise being able to survive trauma that would kill RL humans 5x over.

Originally posted by FrothByte

He fought an unarmed human Cung Le while he himself had the advantage of a weapon and he still got the worse end of that fight. Cung Le then changed to dark mode and, while having his back turned, managed to break Sunny's sword even though it was a blind shot then kicked him hard enough that he couldn't immediately recover. That's pretty much getting pwned since Sunny was completely ineffective against Cung Le.

They fought H2H until he got kicked. Only then did he draw his swords, and they engaged for a few seconds only before the trio went Dark One. He then got kicked by all three of them at once (while all in Dark One mode) hard enough that he spat out blood, before even launching the sword strike at Cung Le. And, again, I NEVER said he would beat any of them in Dark One mode, but he DID get up (after getting kicked into a lamp pole so hard that the entire thing bent), and managed to duck underneath the blows of two of them (while they were in Dark One mode), before they surrounded him and triple-teamed him. He only started losing when they explicitly started using their powers. Before then, he was hardly down and out, and had only received one really notable strike from any of them, which was the kick that sent him flying. In fact, before they went Dark One, he only got tagged 3 times in total. One punch, one throat grab, and the previously mentioned kick.

Originally posted by FrothByte

IP Man managed to do it. Fight 10 guys I mean. I don't think he can take on Crossbones either. Black Widow and Hawkeye consistently take on groups of fodder without any issues. Maybe not 10 to 1 but still high enough that I don't think they'll have problems with a 10:1 ratio as long as the fodder is crappy (like the ones Sunny fought).

So what if IP Man did it? He has other showings struggling with far lesser numbers. Also, did he fight that 10, and then fight another 30-40, without any rest? Also, IP Man doesn't have Sunny's overall stat feats, so trying to equate them because they both fought "10 men" is not a fair comparison. Using that logic, Baleman is comparable to them.

And guess we disagree there. Because if you give Hawkeye his bow in melee, and Widow a pair of taser sticks, I see both of them getting killed in that warehouse. I don't recall any feats where either of them are engaging more than 3 opponents simultaneously. Sure, the overall group might be larger, but they never get ganged up by everyone at once.

And as to how they would each fair against Crossbones, that is your opinion. Hell, Black Widow has already pretty much proven that she could have potentially beaten Rumlow if she had been armed with something more lethal than a taser. And not really relevant, as feats aren't interchangeable between characters.

Originally posted by FrothByte

In a way, you've convinced me that Sunny is cleanly above Nobu and might even give Crossbones a bit of trouble. But I stand firm that he can't beat Nobu and Crossbones together.

I see Sunny as being above either individually. I think he is fast, strong and skilled enough that he could deliver a fatal blow on Rumlow before the latter could do the same. And I think he would solidly best Nobu. However, I did say that 2-on-1 they have a very realistic chance of beating him. If either of them can get Sunny solely focused on them, the other could definitely capitalise and land a potentially lethal blow.

FrothByte
Ok, I'm going to do the fair thing here and rewatch the fights first before commenting further. I'll get back to you later. Man, I hate research.

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