Where do you rank Tenebrous?

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Kurk
discuss

cs_zoltan
Between DC/Ant and Az.

Emperordmb
Between Caedus and Plagueis, noticeably closer to Plagueis

Emperordmb
It's realistically impossible to get stoned to death since to overdose on weed you'd need to consume an unrealistic amount of t in an unrealistically short amount of time.

So even though I get stoned a lot it's unrealistic to expect that I'd be stoned to death.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Between DC/Ant and Az.

Azronger
Valkorion+

NewGuy01
He'd stomp Revan. thumb up

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Between DC/Ant and Az.

I'm above fodder, at least.

MythLord
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He'd stomp Revan. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He'd stomp Revan. thumb up

The Merchant
Above all Sith before him.

Deronn_solo
In the trash compactor.


Dude was a all time failure with mediocre feats to boot. No amount of shit scaling can change what's shown in front of us.

Kurk
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the trash compactor.


Dude was a all time failure with mediocre feats to boot. No amount of shit scaling can change what's shown in front of us. this seems to be the general attitude you have towards most SW characters. Tell me, who do you not bash on?

ares834
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the trash compactor.


Dude was a all time failure with mediocre feats to boot. No amount of shit scaling can change what's shown in front of us.

thumb up

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Kurk
this seems to be the general attitude you have towards most SW characters. Tell me, who do you not bash on?

Kyp, and recently SWTOR characters too.

cs_zoltan
Of all the characters in SW he chose the worst of them.

samappo
Somewhat below Plagueis, but easily only Mace level combatants could probably take him.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Kurk
this seems to be the general attitude you have towards most SW characters. Tell me, who do you not bash on?

NG has it about right regarding my mind state now.



Also, Zoltan is just mad Kyp would ragdoll nearly all his faves. laughing out loud He's most likely a better character, too.

Trocity
In all likelihood he is Caedus level.

NewGuy01
(which is factually > Kyp btw)

DarthAnt66
He's not above Revan, but probably above Malak.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by NewGuy01
(which is factually > Kyp btw)

Kyp would utterly destroy Tenebrous, lal. And Jacen only beats Durron through superior swordsmanship - he'd lose a Force battle, tbh.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the trash compactor.


Dude was a all time failure with mediocre feats to boot. No amount of shit scaling can change what's shown in front of us. In which DC reveals his bias and flagrant close mindedness. no

samappo
Even his most basic feats are quite impressive. Red sith lightning which was considered rare, as well as being a master of lightsaber combat. Designed his own starfighter and was a capable scientist.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Beniboybling
In which DC reveals his bias and flagrant close mindedness. no

Stow it, Beni. stick out tongue

Originally posted by samappo
Even his most basic feats are quite impressive. Red sith lightning which was considered rare, as well as being a master of lightsaber combat.

Are you really posting this with a straight face? laughing out loud

samappo
Yes, I am?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by samappo
Yes, I am?

lmao, screenshot and saved. I never thought the stuff I use to troll Tenebrous supporters with, would actually be used as a legit argument. laughing out loud

1. The color of someone Sith Lightning is irrelevant. The visual representation of the attack has no barring on it's destructive efficacy. Unless there is a statement declaring otherwise.

2. What? Every Jedi Master/ Sith Lord is a master of at least one lightsaber form.

Beniboybling
Did Kyp have red lightning? No? Noted. uhuh

Deronn_solo
Kyp has black lightning, tho.

Black > Red.

Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/giphy.gif

samappo
Um, a 'master' of lightsaber combat is implied to be a master of all seven forms. Nowhere is someone noted to be a 'master' of lightsaber combat and not have mastery of all seven forms.

Maybe this will make it a little clearer:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641051.html

Jinn was a renowned swordsman but that doesn't make him a master of lightsaber combat. Yoda was because he mastered all seven forms.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kyp has black lightning.

I don't think the text actually implies that. As I recall, the strip of text you're referring to describes it as "black cracks in the force," but that could characterize any force lightning. Kind of like how Sidious is a "black hole in the Force" but still not a literal black hole, yeah?



Uh, no, not unless you mean to imply Jaina is above the Son. All jokes aside, though, I'm pretty sure Tenebrous' lightning is blue in the actual text.

And still superior to Kyp's.

samappo
Tenebrous is by logic more powerful than any Banite Sith that came before him, which includes Zannah and Bane. He's the third last true Banite Sith, which makes him below Plagueis but still very strong.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by samappo
Um, a 'master' of lightsaber combat is implied to be a master of all seven forms.

Except, that is literally something you just made up. Mastering, say, Form III, would still, by definition, make someone a master of lightsaber combat, even if they aren't a master of the others. Just saying someone is a master of all forms would be best as it avoids any trivial arguments over semantics and the like.

carthage
Inferior to Vader, Dooku, Revan etc.

samappo
Give me one example where someone is referred to as a master of lightsaber combat and has not mastered all seven forms. And I will concede.

DarthAnt66
-

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by samappo
Give me one example where someone is referred to as a master of lightsaber combat and has not mastered all seven forms. And I will concede.

Let's see:

Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader.
Galen Marek.
Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Kit Fisto.
Saesee Tiin.
Agen Kolar.
Shaak Ti.
Qui-Gon Jinn.
Dooku.
Luke Skywalker.
Jacen Solo.
Jaina Solo.

Off the top of my head.

wink

Rebel95
Probably Vader tier

Kurk
Originally posted by samappo
Give me one example where someone is referred to as a master of lightsaber combat and has not mastered all seven forms. And I will concede. Dooku is in this. Page 57
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Character-Encyclopedia-Updated-Expanded/dp/1465448853

samappo
I need direct statements. Jinn or Fisto are never stated to be masters of lightsaber combat. They are stated to be some of the best swordsmen of the order though.

Is Dooku directly stated to be a master of lightsaber combat?

DarthAnt66
That's the same thing. There's no difference besides being one of the best in the Order is honestly better than the former.

samappo
Yoda, Sidious and Mace are referred to directly as 'masters' of lightsaber combat because they were masters of all seven forms.

I have never seen Dooku, Jinn, Fisto or any others you mentioned as being stated as 'masters of lightsaber combat'.

Lightsaber combat is all seven forms. Jinn was a master of Form IV, Dooku was a master of Form II, Fisto was a master of Form I. This does not make them masters of lightsaber combat. Lightsaber combat encompasses every form.

Dooku is an anomaly. He could have been master of all seven forms. He had enough knowledge in every form to be an instructor, but he did not completely master them, nor did he ever stray from using pure Form II. Therefore he was not a master of lightsaber combat.

samappo
Just because you aren't a master of lightsaber combat and therefore not a master of all seven forms does not make you a bad swordsman.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by samappo
Yoda, Sidious and Mace are referred to directly as 'masters' of lightsaber combat because they were masters of all seven forms.
I don't think the direct term "master of lightsaber combat" has ever been used except that "some" regard Yoda as such.

No accolades I can find attribute it to Palpatine or Mace (directly, that is).

Tenebrous has never been referred to as a "master of lightsaber combat" anyway, by the way.

samappo
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't think the direct term "master of lightsaber combat" has ever been used except that "some" regard Yoda as such.

Tenebrous has never been referred to as a "master of lightsaber combat" anyway, by the way.

It has been used for Sidious as well I'm quite sure.

And let me rephrase; I assume that Tenebrous is a master of lightsaber combat. Based on my thread on Plagueis being a master of all seven forms, since Tenebrous loved lightsaber combat and Plagueis didn't, it's safe to infer that Tenebrous was also a master, assuming my theory on Plagueis is correct.

DarthAnt66
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rots-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101088/

Not on record. ^

Not that simple mastery of all seven forms is particularly impressive regardless.

samappo
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rots-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101088/

Not on record. ^

Not that simple mastery of all seven forms is particularly impressive regardless.

I will concede on that point. However, I think it should be noted that this quote:



Establishes him as a master of lightsaber combat. Although it is not directly stated, I think if you had asked Gillard directly, he would have confirmed it. He just never said it like that. If Yoda is considered to be a master of lightsaber combat, and Sidious is canonically capable of besting the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat (Yoda) then it can be properly inferred. It just isn't directly stated.

And yes, it is no small feat. But as you said, it doesn't mean everything. Skywalker was a Form V specialist and he is a 9 alongside Sidious and Yoda.

DarthAnt66
I'm confused on what your arguing here.

That the term "master of lightsaber combatant" should be considered "a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat" and not just "a master swordsmith?"

If so, then I don't think anyone really cares one way or another, just that the term has always been used here to refer to the latter rather than the former.

If your trying to defend your case that Tenebrous is a master of all seven forms, I'd recommend shifting the focus of the discussion to that.

I don't think many would object to Tenebrous being a master of all seven, though. It seems logical, but as I noted, not that impressive to me either.

NewGuy01
In that case, Sasesee Tiin is a master of all seven forms. Nice.

samappo
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm confused on what your arguing here.

That the term "master of lightsaber combatant" should be considered "a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat" and not just "a master swordsmith?"

If so, then I don't think anyone really cares one way or another, just that the term has always been used here to refer to the latter rather than the former.

If your trying to defend your case that Tenebrous is a master of all seven forms, I'd recommend shifting the focus of the discussion to that.

I don't think many would object to Tenebrous being a master of all seven, though. It seems logical, but as I noted, not that impressive to me either.

I'm trying to say that you cannot be a master of lightsaber combat by specialising in certain forms only. The only directly stated master of lightsaber combat, Yoda, is a master of every form. Sidious can be inferred to be a master of lightsaber combat, due to statements made by Gillard. He was a master of every form.

Other than these two, no one else was. Cin Drallig mastered every form, but this is just one of the criteria that would make you a 'master of lightsaber combat.' The only two 9's (disregard Anakin for a second) are both masters of all seven forms plus extremely powerful/trained in the force. I would say those two are the primary criteria.

Anakin is an anomaly because as a Skywalker and having double (or more) of Sidious' force potential, he's that naturally powerful he can be a 9 while only being a Djem So specialist. Just like Luke contending with Vader on Bespin and outdueling Vader on the Death Star. His force potential was that great that he could not only mirror and copy his opponent's form but also have such strength in the force that he could contend with Vader who had so much more experience than himself.

As for Tenebrous, I don't feel like I need to defend my position that he's a master of all seven forms unless someone wants to challenge me on it.

samappo
Originally posted by NewGuy01
In that case, Sasesee Tiin is a master of all seven forms. Nice.

?

Deronn_solo
It's a shame Star Wars debating has come down to silly semantics and subjective criteria these days.

People wonder why I don't actual debate seriously anymore, lmao.

samappo
Debate me seriously then. I want to be proven wrong.

Deronn_solo
In what regard, exactly? Tenebrous is a master of all 7 forms to a high degree? If that's the case, then I agree I'm not sure if I'm even disagreeing with your main point here.

We just have a differing opinion on what the word "master of lightsaber combat" entails. Dunno how that warrants a full page worth of discussion.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were Nova's alt.

samappo
What's your differing opinion?

Deronn_solo
Here and CV, in particular we use "lightsaber master" and "swordsmaster" interchangeably. You're literally the first person I've seen differentiate between the two - thus - the initial confusion.

samappo
I feel like the phrase 'master of lightsaber combat' should encompass all lightsaber techniques. If one were to take Qui-Gon Jinn for example, he could be considered a master of Form IV and one of the order's best swordsman, but in my eyes he isn't a master of lightsaber combat, since he chooses to apply himself to one of many disciplines that make up lightsaber combat.

samappo
EvanNova from Youtube? Hardly.

He thinks Plagueis was a Niman specialist, I think Plagueis was a master of all 7 lightsaber forms. He also thinks Kenobi > Plagueis, when we all know Plagueis simply ragdolls Kenobi.

MythLord
Originally posted by samappo
I have never seen Dooku, Jinn, Fisto or any others you mentioned as being stated as 'masters of lightsaber combat'.

Dooku was stated as a master of lightsaber combat several times, lmao.

"He had toed the Jedi line; become the Temple's most agile swordmaster and instructor."

-- Labyrinth of Evil

"It must have been difficult for him to have served under a methodical master such as Dooku, consummate planner, consummate duelist."

-- Labyrinth of Evil

"Dooku was said to be one of the Order's finest lightsaber masters, and he had earned a reputation as a skilled diplomat, as well."

-- Darth Plagueis

"Some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen fought in the Form II style."

-- Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3

samappo
I did say that Dooku is an anomaly because he knows every form well enough to instruct them, which suggests a mastery of those forms, to a low degree perhaps but mastery nonetheless.

MythLord
Yeah, Dooku isn't the first person who mastered only one style and has been called a lightsaber master.

A master means you've mastered the art form, and in this case lightsaber combat has plenty of art forms(at least seven, in fact). One can be a master of martial arts, but only truly take Kung Fu to it's nth degree. It's that simple.

samappo
Your explanation persuades me, thanks.

MythLord
thumb up

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by samappo
EvanNova from Youtube? Hardly.

He thinks Plagueis was a Niman specialist, I think Plagueis was a master of all 7 lightsaber forms. He also thinks Kenobi > Plagueis, when we all know Plagueis simply ragdolls Kenobi.

No, I mean Shootingnova/Sun Razer - dude's a fine debater, better than me, but he has a habit of nitpicking the smallest things to no end, lmao.

samappo
Don't think I've seen him on this forum yet.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
dude's a fine debater, better than me

Someone hacked DC's account. RIP.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, I mean Shootingnova/Sun Razer - dude's a fine debater, better than me, but he has a habit of nitpicking the smallest things to no end, lmao.

Nah, even I wouldn't make a distinction between swordsmaster and lightsaber master. smile

Although that concession in bold is bookmarked. smile smile smile

samappo
Guess I was just confused if there was any distinction between the two.

jackisbacklol
By feats : sub Kanan Jarus level.

But we also know he's substantially above Bane, so around Kanan Jarus level

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, even I wouldn't make a distinction between swordsmaster and lightsaber master. smile

Although that concession in bold is bookmarked. smile smile smile

The whole quote is bolded you fegit.

samappo
Oh come on Tenebrous could easily take almost anyone on the Jedi Council and beat them.

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
The whole quote is bolded you fegit.

Forgot about KMC's auto-bold quote system already, lel.

Good to see you again, Zoltan. smile

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Good to see you again, Zoltan. smile

I've been gone that long? Didn't notice while playing MEA.

SunRazer
Nah, I've been absent for several days. Haven't seen anyone, including you.

How is it? Ratings seem rather average.

cs_zoltan
Facial animations sometimes bad, every other animation great (just to get the obvious out of the way).
Main story is alright.
Characters are great.
Voice acting great.
Choices are great.
Side quests are great.
Combat is great.
Crafting is good.
Music bad (but I heared it might be bugged).

Overall around 75-85/100.

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