Ood Bnar (TotJ) vs. Vitiate (Revan)

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Geistalt
Same situation under which Exar Kun faced Ood Bnar in The Sith War 5.

Can Vitiate kill Bnar in time?

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-Out

S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate roasts him.

Azronger
Vitiate dies.

Beniboybling
Finally, an opponent more on Vitiate's level. He still loses tho.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally, an opponent more on Vitiate's level. He still loses tho.

Bnar isn't on Vitiate's level. Tanking a super nova puts him way above that.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
Bnar isn't on Vitiate's level. Tanking a super nova puts him way above that.
Bnar > Luke Skywalker confirmed.

Azronger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bnar > Luke Skywalker confirmed.

Nah. Luke > Yoda > Bnar, canonically.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Bnar isn't on Vitiate's level. Tanking a super nova puts him way above that. tru, guess he's taking the big L here. sad

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
Nah. Luke > Yoda > Bnar, canonically.
None of them tanked a supernova.

samappo
I'm guessing you're gonna place Vitiate above Sidious or something?

Geistalt
Of course we wouldn't.

Doesn't mean Azronger wouldn't do the same with Bnar and Vitiate.

Azronger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
None of them tanked a supernova.

Which doesn't matter as they are above him canonically, jeez.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
Which doesn't matter as they are above him canonically, jeez.
And same is true for Vitiate.

Azronger
He's not canonically above Bnar.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
He's not canonically above Bnar.
Are you sure? evil face

Azronger
Present evidence that he is, then.

S_W_LeGenD
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

MythLord
In-universe, written by kunts who don't even know who Bnar is.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
In-universe, written by kunts who don't even know who Bnar is.
Do you even understand the difference between IU and OOU perspectives of canon?

IU is the default method for establishing facts in fiction. Every piece of literature for Star Wars saga has IU conceit unless specified otherwise.

OOU is relevant to our world.

That is it.

Azronger
Yeah, he's more powerful than Bnar as of TOR. Still waiting for that retcon at the time of the novel.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, he's more powerful than Bnar as of TOR. Still waiting for that retcon at the time of the novel.
Exar Kun > Abeloth. thumb up

jackisbacklol
Bnar wins

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
JACK! Great to see you man

jackisbacklol
**** yourself

Geistalt
Produce a quote from after The Old Republic: Revan (or at least Fate of the Jedi: Outcast) placing Kun > Vitiate.

Then your argument'll have something to stand on.

MythLord
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exar Kun > Abeloth. thumb up

Abeloth has quotes that retcon that one; Novel Vitiate does not. thumb up

Geistalt
"Therefore, the retcon to the original comic only applies to her8D"

MythLord
Obviously since she's one of the few who directly retcons it.

Geistalt
Directly.

How so? The authors never confirmed Abeloth > Luke. By that logic, Kyp > Sidious.

MythLord
Originally posted by Geistalt
How so? The authors never confirmed Abeloth > Luke.

Except for all the times Abeloth defeated or even downright stomped him, while not even scratching her full power.

Originally posted by Geistalt
By that logic, Kyp > Sidious.

No, lol.

Geistalt
Yes, lol.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5038767-9181590801-50361.png

Emphasis on "my greatest enemy."

Geistalt
Parallel in FotJ:

MythLord
Yeah, a Kyp who's powers were massively boosted by Exar Kun. Regardless, that's Luke's subjective opinion, and greatest doesn't neccessarily mean "most powerful".

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, he's more powerful than Bnar as of TOR. Still waiting for that retcon at the time of the novel.
Holy ****, lmfao.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
Abeloth has quotes that retcon that one; Novel Vitiate does not. thumb up
Abeloth might have become stronger at some point later. All of the quotes for supremacy of Abeloth are in later periods. wink

DarthAnt66
No quote from Abeloth retcons it formally, regardless.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Holy ****, lmfao.

MythLord
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Abeloth might have become stronger at some point later. All of the quotes for supremacy of Abeloth are in later periods. wink

Yeah... the imprisoned Abeloth who was getting starved to death in a gigantic station containing several black holes, and continuing to starve and weaken over four thousand years, would surely become stronger. -_-

Regardless, she's above the Son and he's canonically above Exar Kun before Exar Kun was even born. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Abeloth isn't above the Son.

And I don't recall any quote saying pre-TCW Son > Kun.

MythLord
She beat the Son once already.

And there's several stating the Son's power is beyond any Sith and that the Celestials have powers far ahead of other Force users, or some such sh!t.

DarthAnt66
Not canonically, just in legend from the Killiks, who weren't even present at the battle.

All of which are based around the TCW era, I believe.

Geistalt
Originally posted by MythLord
She must have been stronger

Therefore, it's only not true for her
8D

MythLord
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not canonically, just in legend from the Killiks, who weren't even present at the battle.

Killiks have a rich history with said Celestial beings, and were given knowledge and stories from those beings themselves. I'd put more weight on their words than yours, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All of which are based around the TCW era, I believe.

The former is all-encompasing, IIRC.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by MythLord
I'd put more weight on their words than yours, tbh.
https://2ch.hk/biz/src/910199/14901208578120.jpg

DarthAnt66
For the record, if we're using anything under "Legends canon" as absolute policy like an extremely vague Kun quote to put him above Vitiate, then Darth Revan's canonically above Kun as per 2008, so the case is mute regardless.

If we're using this bullshit, I'm bringing WotC front and center. erm

Azronger
Evidence?

DarthAnt66
https://e16i.imgup.net/revand7f1.png

Emphasis on second paragraph.

This article is officially a Legends canon work. C-Canon in fact, so on par with the RotS novelization in terms of its legitimacy.

The quote specifically lists "the most powerful," not "some" or "among."

It's far more direct than the quotes you write off with Kun > Vitiate, at the very least.

Thus, Palpatine, Revan, and Caedus are canonically the three most powerful Sith as of 2008.

Vitiate and Plagueis are exempt due to later quotes putting them above Revan, but the other Sith aren't.

Since I can actually think, I have SoR Revan on par with Kun, but if we're using pure quotes, Darth Revan > Tenebrous.

Geistalt
Never go full retard.
It should be enough to remind everyone that they think:


a) Nomi and Sylvar can sever Vitiate.
b) Ulic Qel-Droma can 1-shot the Dark Council.

Geistalt

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Geistalt
Or at least Darth Marr, assuming he's as strong as all 12 of them combined.
... what?

Geistalt
The Dark Council under Darth Lokess.

If Marr was at most as strong as them (and saying that Vitiate'd let a Dark Council member become that strong is retarded), Ulic should be able to 1-shot him.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nevermind.

Geistalt
Never mind what?

Those are their standards.

Geistalt
Apparently, Ulic 1-shots Marr.

Hell; Ulic 1-shots Meetra. Freezes lightsabers on a whim.

DarthAnt66
Az silenced.

Deronn_solo
Vitiate one-shot; absolutely terrible thread.

FreshestSlice
So much autism.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://e16i.imgup.net/revand7f1.png

Emphasis on second paragraph.

This article is officially a Legends canon work. C-Canon in fact, so on par with the RotS novelization in terms of its legitimacy.

The quote specifically lists "the most powerful," not "some" or "among."

It's far more direct than the quotes you write off with Kun > Vitiate, at the very least.

Thus, Palpatine, Revan, and Caedus are canonically the three most powerful Sith as of 2008.

Vitiate and Plagueis are exempt due to later quotes putting them above Revan, but the other Sith aren't.

Since I can actually think, I have SoR Revan on par with Kun, but if we're using pure quotes, Darth Revan > Tenebrous.

Well, can you prove miniature game quotes are part of the actual Legends continuity, and not just part of the game's own? I recall the Bastila/Dooku/Kenobi one being solely for the game.

Also, since you said "I can actually think" then I assume you have some legitmate reason to dismiss the quote.

Also, it's not purely about quotes. Feats matter too. If a character A is deemed to be stronger via a quote than character B, but has clearly established limits via feats i.e. at max can only lift 10 tons, and if character B clearly has no such limit (has performed better feats) then the quote blatantly contradicts the source material and is rendered void.

jackisbacklol
Ant's Miniature Game Guide also states that Revan stars in the Force Unleashed. So yeah, it's C-canon now. On par with the ROTS novel in terms of legitimacy.

http://i65.tinypic.com/53tzsl.png

SunRazer
laughing out loud

jackisbacklol
Apparently the writers of this totally legit guys C-canon game guide, also couldn't spare the five seconds it would take to learn the difference between Legacy of The Force and Legacy. Resulting in characters being listed from era's they weren't even born in.

http://i63.tinypic.com/rctwls.png

BTW, Teneb > SOR Revan

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
laughing out loud

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by jackisbacklol
Ant's Miniature Game Guide also states that Revan stars in the Force Unleashed. So yeah, it's C-canon now. On par with the ROTS novel in terms of legitimacy.

http://i65.tinypic.com/53tzsl.png
Lol no. Darth Revan was released with The Force Unleashed series, hence why it's there.

It's not referring to the game but a line of figures that were just called the same thing. Same for all the others.

Azronger: If you recall the Dooku and Bastila quotes, they were specific when they said it is referring to the game (by using he wording "in game terms" or "in the Star Wars Miniatures game." This, however, is not only positioned before the game mechanics are introduced, but is factually incorrect if taken within terms of the game since there are Sith characters with significant better stats than Solo. So no, it is referring to the Legends continuity in the same way Hasbro has pages for Malak that change between Legends and their own continuity.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by jackisbacklol
Apparently the writers of this totally legit guys C-canon game guide, also couldn't spare the five seconds it would take to learn the difference between Legacy of The Force and Legacy. Resulting in characters being listed from era's they weren't even born in.

http://i63.tinypic.com/rctwls.png

BTW, Teneb > SOR Revan
Again, these figures were released under the Legacy of the Force series, hence the title.

It's not referring to the book series but a seperate product.

Geistalt

DarthAnt66
Amazing, thank you. thumb up I accept all ya'lll Vitiate hatters concessions.

SunRazer

Geistalt
Sheevites ftw.

SunRazer
thumb up

The TORy ship will sink like Atlantis. smile

DarthAnt66
I defected to the Sheevites a while ago.

That doesn't mean I won't call out BS.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I defected to the Sheevites a while ago.

That doesn't mean I won't call out BS.

I'm pretty sure that nobody genuinely believes that Ood > Vitiate, except possibly Az. And he seems to be trolling at least in part here.

DarthAnt66
Yeah I know only Az believes it, but he seriously does, last time I checked.

Ursumeles
Caedus ~ Darth Revan > Tenebrous > Kun

MythLord
Yay... game mechanics for a freaking role-playing, miniatures game are now legit! Lucien Draay is ~ Bane and Vader. thumb up

Geistalt
You mistake "game mechanics" for character descriptions.

MythLord
Ant himself has called them that as those figurines are used for roleplaying games and thus all their stats and descriptions are essentially just for the game itself; they hardly extend into the Legends canon in any way.

Geistalt
Well, per official designation, they're C-canon.

http://70b0847f967d1d37694c-789248f0448453b835406008213ad4a2.r86.cf2.rackcdn.com/cover_photo_745949_1479507740.jpg

Geistalt
Just the descriptions, though; the stats are meaningless.

Azronger
Ant, you still haven't told me why you dismiss the quote.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he doesn't only cite that. Illustrious, for the- I just showed a link and posted the section showing and proving RPG sourcebook story info is C canon. And that's invalid because THIS IS NOT AN RPG SOURCEBOOK. I'm reading this thread, laughing my ass off.

Geistalt
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-400581-palpatine-most-powerful-sith-lord-in-history.html

MythLord
Originally posted by Geistalt
Well, per official designation, they're C-canon.

Except Action Figures aren't background information nor are they a part of the Star Wars EU, unless you wanna count all of those puzzles and 2-year-old games from SW Magazines as canon, the SW CineManga canon and Tag and Bink comics canon.

Beniboybling
I don't think this is canon tbh, unless it comes with the game product these web publications are likely no less valid than the blogs on SW.com.

Geistalt
Originally posted by MythLord
Except Action Figures aren't background information. It's not some blurb off the back of action figures; it's a description of those Sith from an Internet article.

Beniboybling
Exactly. sad

MythLord
Originally posted by Geistalt
It's not some blurb off the back of action figures; it's a description of those Sith from an Internet article.

That goes with an action figure. :/

Geistalt
Here's some more evidence.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100905012007/http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=552

If it wasn't explicitly C-canon (like "EVERYthing else"wink, you could infer as much by process of elimination.

MythLord
Except, not EVERYthing is C-canon. There are some things that simply don't fit into the EU continuity and these action figures and their descriptions are one of them.

Geistalt
Everything aside from the movies and T-canon was.

That includes Internet articles.


Forgot to mention outdated (pre-Holocron) S-canon.

MythLord
And this would be labled as either S or N canon, honestly. If you were to take the SW Miniatures as canon, then Lucien Draay is official on par with Palpatine since both have the same amount of calculated damage output and Hit/Force points(130). And Yoda would be the most powerful Sith(140) and Revan and Caedus would each have 110.

So Yoda > Sidious ~ Lucien Draay > Revan and Caedus. Good job on directly contradicting the established hierarchy. thumb up

Geistalt
Originally posted by MythLord
And this would be labled as either S or N canon, honestly. Source?

Geistalt
It goes out of its way to exclude those stats, y'know.

MythLord
Right. This isn't "general background information" or anything of the sorts, however. It's a strategy manual as to how to apply those action figures and their stats in combat. So it doesn't apply.

Geistalt
Wrong.

It lists the stats separately, after describing the Sith in the game as the most powerful. Hope you're done acting like an ass.

MythLord
It talks about how to apply said stats in a tactical manner. Hence why it's a Roleplaying Strategy Guide. It speaks of Revan, Caedus and Sidious only in the context of those specific stats given to them.

I hope you're done being a dense cuck.

Geistalt
For whom?

Ulic and Exar Kun?

MythLord
Within the context of the Roleplaying Miniatures game, it is apparent that Revan and Jacen are better strategic picks than them.

But given that the entire internet article is how to apply characters and their respective stats/points/abilities in combat against one another, and said stats/points/abilities are are N and S canon, then the quotes regarding them(like the one you and Ant are flaunting around) simply don't apply.

Geistalt
Doesn't make them more powerful Sith Lords.

MythLord
Obviously, within the Roleplaying Game it does. Within the EU, well... it has no place being in the EU to begin with.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Geistalt
Apparently, Ulic 1-shots Marr.

Hell; Ulic 1-shots Meetra. Freezes lightsabers on a whim.

MythLord
Ah, I see you're just moving the goalpost now.

I'm not arguing if Ulic is truly > Vitiate(I don't believe so, I just troll), I'm arguing you can't debunk that using this lack luster argument.

Geistalt
You can per Azronger's standards (canon EU statements).

Geistalt
Originally posted by MythLord
Within the EU, well... it has no place being in the EU to begin with. But it is.

Your opinion on whether or not it should be C-canon is irrelevant.

MythLord
Thank God it's not just my opinion, but is based on deductive reasoning that you can't use a statement which refers to stats in an RPG game which were clarified as non-canon. thumb up

Geistalt
Please explain how the quote refers to stats.

DarthAnt66
It doesn't, given if it did, the quote would be factually incorrect. Caedus doesn't have close to the best stats.

When WotC refers to stats, it specifically states "In game terms" or "Within the Star Wars Miniatures universe," etc.

Deronn_solo
Just face it; Ant one upped you guys, instead of giving him props, you guys decide to invest in some serious damage control.

Azronger
Ood still wins this

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
AZ shouldn't even be allowed to reproduce.

thumb up

Azronger
On a serious note, I'm genuinely curious how the hell you can justify Vitiate winning this, much less one-shotting. Do take note that Vitiate is confronting Ood under the exact same circumstances Kun did, per the OP's stipulations. This means Ood can fully draw on the nexus of Ossus' core, which allowed to pull of feats like this:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393743-2113163999-53387.png

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5453116-tanks+supernova+explosion.jpg

So how on earth could Vitiate, who doesn't have his amplifications that allowed for all of his combat feats up to this point, beat Ood when Exar Kun - Vitiate's superior as a Force user without his amps - armed with all the power of the dark side and his lightsaber, could not?

Feel free to attempt to prove Vitiate is packing more of a punch than a supernova.

S_W_LeGenD

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
On a serious note, I'm genuinely curious how the hell you can justify Vitiate winning this, much less one-shotting. Do take note that Vitiate is confronting Ood under the exact same circumstances Kun did, per the OP's stipulations. This means Ood can fully draw on the nexus of Ossus' core, which allowed to pull of feats like this:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393743-2113163999-53387.png

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5453116-tanks+supernova+explosion.jpg

So how on earth could Vitiate, who doesn't have his amplifications that allowed for all of his combat feats up to this point, beat Ood when Exar Kun - Vitiate's superior as a Force user without his amps - armed with all the power of the dark side and his lightsaber, could not?

Feel free to attempt to prove Vitiate is packing more of a punch than a supernova.
Given that inqusitor sedriss forced the tree to connit suicide to take it down...
sedriss>kun> vitiate?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Given that inqusitor sedriss forced the tree to connit suicide to take it down...
sedriss>kun> vitiate?
Here:

Beniboybling
LeG is right, Kun was just too pathetic. thumb up

Azronger
It's way better than the mess you typed, lol.



You do realize the self-contradiction here, right?

And Sedriss didn't use Alter Environment anyway, he just drew power from the atmosphere.



laughing out loud

Vitiate's Alter Envirmonment is limited to rituals. His personal power in that field is non-existent. Not that it matters, since AE wasn't used against Ood in the first place, and you've presented absolutely nothing from Vitiate that'd propel him above Kun, so I certainly can pin his failure to Vitiate thumb up



Worthless garbage. You've absolutely failed to refute any of my points and instead spewed some powerscaling that in no way ties to Kun. If you want to prove Vitiate wins this, then prove that his damage output eclipses that of a lightsaber blade and a supernova. If your next post isn't directly addressing this, then I'll just stop wasting my time with you.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
It's way better than the mess you typed, lol.
Vitiate > Ood Bnar
Vitiate > Exar Kun

See below.

Originally posted by Azronger
You do realize the self-contradiction here, right?

And Sedriss didn't use Alter Environment anyway, he just drew power from the atmosphere.
Vitiate doesn't even need that to destroy Ood Bnar.

Originally posted by Azronger
laughing out loud

Vitiate's Alter Envirmonment is limited to rituals. His personal power in that field is non-existent. Not that it matters, since AE wasn't used against Ood in the first place, and you've presented absolutely nothing from Vitiate that'd propel him above Kun, so I certainly can pin his failure to Vitiate thumb up
Really? See chapter 12 of Knights of the Fallen Empire. Vitiate can perform ALTER ENVIRONMENT on both micro and macro levels. He performed a ritual to wreck the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas (a planetary-scale feat) but he doesn't needs a ritual to perform ALTER ENVIRONMENT on micro-level.

More importantly, a Force-wielder invests his power in a ritual. Therefore, Vitiate's feat of corrupting the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas is also a valid demonstration of his strength. The word 'ritual' doesn't invalidates it.

NOTE: Rituals in Star Wars are not necessarily voodoo magic. They are essentially acts of ALTER.

Originally posted by Azronger
Worthless garbage. You've absolutely failed to refute any of my points and instead spewed some powerscaling that in no way ties to Kun. If you want to prove Vitiate wins this, then prove that his damage output eclipses that of a lightsaber blade and a supernova. If your next post isn't directly addressing this, then I'll just stop wasting my time with you.
I presented evidence earlier:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

That is not an era-specific quote. It doesn't specifies when Vitiate became that strong. It just tells us that he is.

Case closed.

Geistalt
Vitiate didn't even use a ritual to corrupt Dromund Kaas, IIRC; it was just a planetary Force Storm.

samappo
I'm pretty sure the entry in SWTOR states that as a result of rituals performed by the emperor over the years, the planet started getting permanent storms.

Geistalt
If that's the case (i.e. it was inadvertent), it's less impressive than what Plagueis accomplished.

Geistalt
Even less impressive:

It was deliberate, and it required time to take effect.


Found a quote on him draining strength from people aside from Revan and the Hand, though.

Azronger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate > Ood Bnar
Vitiate > Exar Kun

See below.


Vitiate doesn't even need that to destroy Ood Bnar.


Really? See chapter 12 of Knights of the Fallen Empire. Vitiate can perform ALTER ENVIRONMENT on both micro and macro levels. He performed a ritual to wreck the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas (a planetary-scale feat) but he doesn't needs a ritual to perform ALTER ENVIRONMENT on micro-level.

More importantly, a Force-wielder invests his power in a ritual. Therefore, Vitiate's feat of corrupting the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas is also a valid demonstration of his strength. The word 'ritual' doesn't invalidates it.

NOTE: Rituals in Star Wars are not necessarily voodoo magic. They are essentially acts of ALTER.


I presented evidence earlier:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

That is not an era-specific quote. It doesn't specifies when Vitiate became that strong. It just tells us that he is.

Case closed.

I'm going to skip the AE nonsense since it's not relevant.

But to the point, you defeated your own point by acknowledging the fact that the quote doesn't tell us when he he became the most powerful Force user, so there's no reason to assume this refers to novel Vitiate. And more importantly, the quote doesn't include amplifications, which Ood has here, so again, worthless quote.

I say this once more: prove that Vitiate packs more of a punch than a supernova and a lightsaber blade, or stop wasting my time.

Rockydonovang
sedriss=bnar>kun>vitiate

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
I'm going to skip the AE nonsense since it's not relevant.

But to the point, you defeated your own point by acknowledging the fact that the quote doesn't tell us when he he became the most powerful Force user, so there's no reason to assume this refers to novel Vitiate. And more importantly, the quote doesn't include amplifications, which Ood has here, so again, worthless quote.

I say this once more: prove that Vitiate packs more of a punch than a supernova and a lightsaber blade, or stop wasting my time.
Why do you believe there is such a significant gap of power between novel Vitiate and SWTOR Vitiate?

If there was, SWTOR Vitiate would have dominated Revan with telepathy if novel Vitiate was stalemating him.

What actually happened was Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant close to SWTOR.

And we know that Revan's powers degraded during this time frame, so it seems obvious Vitiate didn't increase much.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
I'm going to skip the AE nonsense since it's not relevant.

But to the point, you defeated your own point by acknowledging the fact that the quote doesn't tell us when he he became the most powerful Force user, so there's no reason to assume this refers to novel Vitiate. And more importantly, the quote doesn't include amplifications, which Ood has here, so again, worthless quote.

I say this once more: prove that Vitiate packs more of a punch than a supernova and a lightsaber blade, or stop wasting my time.
Repeating same nonsense again and again, doesn't makes your argument credible.

Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user out there. Amplifications and shit like that, suggest jack in front of that statement because Vitiate might be far stronger than even amped Ood Bnar. Vitiate can one-shot a planet with his powers for example and Ood Bnar is no where close to pull that off. Vitiate also has the capability to retain his presence outside a corporeal vessel, so he has his methods to counter celestial hazards and such. In KoTET, Vitiate remarked that no superweapon can stop him.

And yes, DarthAnt66 is correct in pointing out that their isn't much disparity in strength between Vitiate (NOV) and Vitiate (SWTOR). He cited a good case for it.

Time for you to drop your nonsense.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Repeating same nonsense again and again, doesn't makes your argument credible.Words to live by. eek!

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Geistalt
If that's the case (i.e. it was inadvertent), it's less impressive than what Plagueis accomplished.
You sure about that?

Their is no proof that Darth Plagueis deliberately altered the climatic conditions of Naboo. It could be a sign. Anyways, it was a seasonal event at most.

Vitiate wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas on planetary-scale and the change was so profound that the planet began to experience planet-wide stormy conditions that rendered the notion of Night and Day moot and this shift was permanent. The entire environment changed and became hazardous as a consequence.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why do you believe there is such a significant gap of power between novel Vitiate and SWTOR Vitiate?

If there was, SWTOR Vitiate would have dominated Revan with telepathy if novel Vitiate was stalemating him.

What actually happened was Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate to initiate the Treaty of Coruscant close to SWTOR.

And we know that Revan's powers degraded during this time frame, so it seems obvious Vitiate didn't increase much.

Telepathy isn't a valid way to measure overall Force power in this case, or otherwise Revan wouldn't have been creamed by Vitiate in a direct contest, and Vitiate would have actually gotten weaker, which would make no sense. Revan is simply an excellent telepath and an outlier who can contend with beings who are otherwise far above him, in a mental battle.

As for the gap between novel Vitiate and TOR Vitiate, I haven't seen the former devastate a planet, nor have I seen any implication that he can accomplish such a task. And the latter was also draining power from Revan, who was constantly being replenished by the Exile, who as a result of merging with the Force, gained access to virtually unlimited reserves and power. In a span of three centuries, doing that non-stop, Vitiate would have Revan's power tens of times over as part of his own.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
otherwise Revan wouldn't have been creamed by Vitiate in a direct contest.
But that never happened? Revan absorbed a vast majority of Vitiate's energy.

And so what, all of Vitiate's other powers increased but his telepathy didn't? Doesn't make sense.

Azronger
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Repeating same nonsense again and again, doesn't makes your argument credible.

Great advice. Too bad you're too proud and/or stupid to apply it to yourself.



laughing out loud

Oh, so amps are irrelevant because Vitiate might be stronger than an amped Ood? What? Just... lmao.

Notify me when you have a basis for any of this. Vitiate > Ood, without any amps - fact. However, once Ood draws power from Ossus' core, that statement no longer applies and we are left to the realm of feats, where Vitiate can at most (I'd argue the supernova was still far more potent) devastate the surface of a planet similarly to what the supernova did to Ossus - and Ood would still survive that attack.

And then we factor in that this Vitiate we are using isn't even capable of that, so your argument falls flat once more.



No he didn't. In fact if we were to follow his logic, Vitiate would've grown weaker during that period, which makes no sense.



I'll drop my "nonsense" once someone successfully refutes it - which I know won't be you.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
No he didn't. In fact if we were to follow his logic, Vitiate would've grown weaker during that period, which makes no sense..
No it doesn't? Vitiate and Revan were peers who could mutually influence each-other both at the start and end of their war.

FreshestSlice
How does Ant make that argument? For 275 years, Revan stopped Vitiate from invading. Then, when Revan is growing weaker, Vitiate invades. Revan still puts in enough effort to force a truce. Vitiate then disappears and makes plans that Revan has no influence over because he has little power left at that point. It's really not that hard to understand.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But that never happened? Revan absorbed a vast majority of Vitiate's energy.

Still clinging to that calc, Ant?

Revan got stomped. Anyone who can read and comprehend the text understands this: Vitiate fires an attack, Revan tries to block it, Revan fails, Revan is left a charred and burned mess on floor.



You are correct - it doesn't, really. But that's what the facts say so that's how it is, and it is not enough to refute my argument.

DarthAnt66
But he didn't? We know for a fact that the lightning should have disintegrated Revan, and yet all that happened was first to second-degree burns. erm

That's indisputable.

DarthAnt66
My factual interpretation has Vitiate and Revan as peers but Vitiate slightly stronger, which is consistent with the mental war.

Your interpretation holds that Vitiate's best ability is weaker than it should be, Revan's telepathy is way better than the rest of his abilities, etc.

Rockydonovang
Ant, Could revan reborn beat novel vitiate if their fight took place on even ground?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate and Revan aren't peers. smile

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But he didn't? We know for a fact that the lightning should have disintegrated Revan, and yet all that happened was first to second-degree burns. erm

That's indisputable.

So because he wasn't disintegrated, he wasn't stomped? What kind of logic is this? That in no way stops it from being a stomp. Revan got downed in one attack. One. Attack. And he would have died if not for outside help. If that isn't a curbstomp, then I don't know what is.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
So because he wasn't disintegrated, he wasn't stomped? What kind of logic is this? That in no way stops it from being a stomp. Revan got downed in one attack. One. Attack. And he would have died if not for outside help. If that isn't a curbstomp, then I don't know what is.
Do you not understand what that attack was?

It was Vitiate building up all his energy into a concentrated Force attack with Revan doing the same.

It was an entire battle's worth of energy concentrated into a grand finale for both parties.

It would be like Palpatine gathering his strength, Yoda gathering his strength, and then unleashing it and Palpatine winning with Yoda defeated and slightly injured.

Yes, the fact Revan absorbed energy capable of ashing him instantly so that it only gave him those burns means he wasn't stomped.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate and Revan aren't peers. smile
thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ant, honestly I think you're misinterpreting what actually happened.

Vitiate overwhelmed Revan's defenses, and Vitiate kept electrocuting him with more and more Lightning as Revan (who at this point is defenseless) was convulsing in agony. This stops when T3 steps in to cook Vitiate. Vitiate not ashing defenseless Revan is an inconsistency, just like Sidious not ashing a defenseless Windu, Valkorion not ashing Marr, etc.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My factual interpretation has Vitiate and Revan as peers but Vitiate slightly stronger, which is consistent with the mental war.

Your interpretation holds that Vitiate's best ability is weaker than it should be, Revan's telepathy is way better than the rest of his abilities, etc.

Your interpretation isn't any more factual than mine; in fact it is far less so and more nonsensical.

Revan got one-shot. That's factual information. I don't know if you consider someone a peer of the person who one-shot them fair and square, but I certainly don't.

Revan can only stand up to Vitiate in telepathy. This is again, factual information, whereas your claim that it is Vitiate's best ability isn't, and is nothing more than fanfiction.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
Your interpretation isn't any more factual than mine; in fact it is far less so and more nonsensical.

Revan got one-shot. That's factual information. I don't know if you consider someone a peer of the person who one-shot them fair and square, but I certainly don't.

Revan can only stand up to Vitiate in telepathy. This is again, factual information, whereas your claim that it is Vitiate's best ability isn't, and is nothing more than fanfiction.
What? My interpretation is simply looking at the text and going:

- Revan would have got disintegrated with the lightning.
- Revan only got second-degree burns with the lightning.
- Revan absorbed a vast majority of the lightning given the energy ouput and input.

All three of the above statements are factual.

So no, my interpretation is factual; yours is retarded and false.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you not understand what that attack was?

It was Vitiate building up all his energy into a concentrated Force attack with Revan doing the same.

It was an entire battle's worth of energy concentrated into a grand finale for both parties.

It would be like Palpatine gathering his strength, Yoda gathering his strength, and then unleashing it and Palpatine winning with Yoda defeated and slightly injured.

Yes, the fact Revan absorbed energy capable of ashing him instantly so that it only gave him those burns means he wasn't stomped.

Okay. Whatever you say. Label it however you want. The facts are still there: Revan got one-shot and would have died without outside intervention. If you deny even that then you're in denial.

DarthAnt66
The fact that you say he got "one-shot" is misleading given the context of the one-shot.

Revan was downed in one attack, but the one attack reflected their concentrated powers.

Thus, Revan being one-shot doesn't mean he didn't show semi-parity with Vitiate, which he factually did.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? My interpretation is simply looking at the text and going:

- Revan would have got disintegrated with the lightning.
- Revan only got second-degree burns with the lightning.
- Revan absorbed a vast majority of the lightning given the energy ouput and input.

All three of the above statements are factual.

So no, my interpretation is factual; yours is retarded and false.

Yeah, you're in denial, and I have a policy of debating against such individuals. I rest my case and leave it at that.

DarthAnt66
... concession accepted then, lmfao. erm

Beniboybling
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ant, honestly I think you're misinterpreting what actually happened.

Vitiate overwhelmed Revan's defenses, and Vitiate kept electrocuting him with more and more Lightning as Revan (who at this point is defenseless) was convulsing in agony. This stops when T3 steps in to cook Vitiate. Vitiate not ashing defenseless Revan is an inconsistency, just like Sidious not ashing a defenseless Windu, Valkorion not ashing Marr, etc. It's not an inconsistency, Sidious, Valk and the like simply aren't capable of ashing powerful Force users, and never have been. erm

And Vitiate didn't even overwhelm his defenses tbh, Revan flat out failed to block the attack full stop. Rather pathetic, really.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not an inconsistency, Sidious, Valk and the like simply aren't capable of ashing powerful Force users, and never have. erm

And Vitiate didn't even overwhelm his defenses tbh, Revan flat out failed to block the attack full stop. Rather pathetic, really.
Actually, Mace/Marr are just far more powerful than scrubs like revan reborn given their ability to not get turned into ash by mor epowerful force users(a vastly more powerful dude in rots sids)

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Actually, Mace/Marr are just far more powerful than scrubs like revan reborn given their ability to not get turned into ash by mor epowerful force users(a vastly more powerful dude in rots sids)
Revan was never ashed?

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