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In Legends, it's explained that Windu only won thanks to Vaapad and whatnot, and even then it's still possible Palpatine threw it.

But in Canon, we have no indication of Vaapad being involved, and it's unlikely Vaapad works like it did in Legends anyway.

So, is Mace legitimately capable of beating Palpatine in Canon in the fashion we see in ROTS, or did Palpatine throw the fight?

My thoughts:

I've always been a firm believer that Sheev let Mace win. The speed and skill Sheev wields versus Yoda is far greater than what he does against Mace. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he would have won otherwise. I think Sheev let Mace win so that he could dictate and control the situation in which he was defeated. If Sheev legitimately fought Mace, he would potentially be more vulnerable to outright dying (note he originally opted to flee against Yoda than risk a battle-to-the-death). Nevertheless, I still think Sheev would have won for a majority, especially if he used his Force abilities to the fullest. I don't think he wanted to take that gamble though, especially considering Anakin's turn is far more important than slaying Mace himself (hell, Anakin seeing Palpatine standing over Mace's corpse may very well jeopardize Anakin's fall completely).

Don't Gillards explanations count for canon?

Please post?

I think he legitimately lost, but would win the vast majority.

Until some new information comes out regarding the loss, sheev lost fairly.

I think what happened is that Sidious tried toying with Mace but it backfired badly. You can see at the beginning of the fight how he gets a few opportunities to kill but doesn't. After the saber-lock Mace gets pissed and they start fighting evenly.

In otherwords, Sheev got arrogant

Mace is just better

I think Mace won fair and square, but Sidious would win the majority under normal circumstances. If Sidious had intentionally thrown the fight, the movie would have made it clearer to the audience that he did so. An in depth analysis shouldn't be necessary to prove that he threw the fight, in my opinion

Originally posted by Rebel95
If Sidious had intentionally thrown the fight, the movie would have made it clearer to the audience that he did so
Lucas intentionally wanted it to be up for debate.

I'm honestly unsure what to make of this fight, tbh.

On one hand, Mace would've killed Sheev had Anakin not arrived at that exact moment, and if he purposely threw the fight for Anakin to arrive at that precise moment and observe how Mace was about to kill him but failed by a couple of seconds, his plan would've been an utter failure with an incredibly high risk.

Sheev does not at all strike me as someone who would generally risk so much when the outcome directly impacts whether he lives or dies.

That said, I am still unsure. I might be leaning towards Sheev getting a little bit arrogant at the beginning of the fight and then getting overwhelmed afterwards.

Originally posted by Petrus
his plan would've been an utter failure with an incredibly high risk.
Palpatine took the same chance with Luke in RotJ. Vader stepped in again.

Lucas has even drawn parallels between the two scenes in interviews.

Really? Well... shit. I don't know then lol

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine took the same chance with Luke in RotJ. Vader stepped in again.

Eh, I think it was considerably different. In ROTS, he underestimated Mace's strength compared to his own, and that was his downfall. 1-versus-1 kinda deal he screwed up.

In ROTJ, he didn't count on Vader turning on him, especially after the confrontation Vader had against Luke in ESB. It was direct betrayal by his most loyal follower, whereas in ROTS he just got overconfident with his abilities.

EDIT - Even with GL drawing parallels, I don't think they were that similar tbh.

I'm referring to the scene where Luke goes to strike Palpatine and Mace goes to strike Palpatine.

Both instances have Palpatine trusting Anakin to intervene.

Sheev underestimating Mace's strength is a theory and not relevant to the parallel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm referring to the scene where Luke goes to strike Palpatine and Mace goes to strike Palpatine.

Both instances have Palpatine trusting Anakin to intervene.

Ah. My mistake, then. Still don't think it's the same, tho.

Anakin wasn't actually in the room. For him to throw the fight, he would've needed to have a practically perfect calculation of how much time it would take for Anakin to arrive and coordinate that with Mace preparing to deal the final blow. I think it's too much.

Vader, on the other hand, was standing right there next to Palps when Luke attempted to kill him, and obviously by that time he'd become his most loyal and trusted servant.

Originally posted by Petrus
Anakin wasn't actually in the room. For him to throw the fight, he would've needed to have a practically perfect calculation of how much time it would take for Anakin to arrive and coordinate that with Mace preparing to deal the final blow. I think it's too much.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_sense

Palpatine used lightning to stall the rest.

Meh, I still think it's far-fetched. But who knows, could be.

Palpatine let Mace win; he wanted to put Anakin into a do or die situation where he'd have to pick either Palpatine and in essence his wifes life or the Jedi. the facts support this:

1. He ALLOWS Anakin to go and tell Mace that he is Sidious, he in fact encourages this.

2. While Anakin is in the meditation chamber Sidious is heard communicating to him the urgency of his life; if Palpatine dies; so does Padme.

3. Sidious effortlessly kills 3 Jedi masters who are all said to be the best swordsmen in the order.

4. He had Mace at blade point and didn't press the attack; this shows that he's trying to prolong the fight until Anakin can arrive.

5. When Mace "disarms" Sidious it just so happens to coincide EXACTLY with Anakin entering the room; all Anakin sees is Mace holding his blade to a frail scared old man trying to back away from the conflict. If you watch the film this is blatantly clear that when Anakin enters the room Sidious had JUST been disarmed and was scampering away from Mace.

6. Only when Mace tries to arrest Sidious does he actually attack with his lightning, again he's trying to force a decision from Anakin and being jailed wont produce that effect, only after the lightning attack does Mace resolve to kill Palpatine and finally force Anakins hand.

7. Sidious plays possum, claiming that his powers are weak and goading Anakin into action; once Anakin makes his fateful decision, Sidious springs back into action killing Mace.

And for those claiming that this is all too convenient, its well established that Sidious can see into the future and change his plans accordingly; this ability may have failed him come RTOJ but he was in his prime for this during the events of his ascension.

Good points^

He threw the fight, the timing of Anakin's arrival is a dead give away.

However, I also don't think Palpatine was at full power until he dropped his facade and let the dark side permeate him fully.

I think everything for Palpatine throwing the fight and getting arrogant is enough to conclude it as such. The timing of Anakin, Palpatine having Mace completely exposed, the parallels between ROTS and ROTJ, it's pretty hands down imo. Since we are talking about new canon we can only use the movie I'm pretty sure as well as quotes from GL and Gillard.











Bit of a quote overload but we can clearly see that Sidious outranks Mace and Yoda as a duelist in canon. There's just no way in the current canon where you can argue that Mace was just plain better.

In Legends you could make the Vaapad and Shatterpoint argument, but even in Legends I still hold that Sidious planned the outcome.

Therefore according to the movies and statements made by Gillard about the canon, Sidious clearly outstripped Mace as a duelist, he is seen exposing Mace with his lightsaber at least once, and is disarmed just as Anakin is entering.

To further explain Mace disarming Sidious, as well as Sidious appearing to be pushed back by Mace, consider this:



This statement suggests even further that Sidious drew Mace in, and that Sidious was in fact not arrogant and in control the entirety of the time.

Originally posted by samappo

This statement suggests even further that Sidious drew Mace in, and that Sidious was in fact not arrogant and in control the entirety of the time.

I've been saying this for 12 years; people don't watch things closely enough, the hints that Sidious threw that fight are all there in Revenge of the Sith

Yeah but people had Legends material to back up Mace. They can't do that now, since it is no longer canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thsFbDtLrVg

Even going by just the movie:

Sidious holding his blade out at Windu and not striking him down speaks for itself. It's a perfect representation of the fight. Mace then grapples with Sidious, with Sheev realizing not killing Mace right there was a mistake.

Sidious was clearly fighting better against Yoda, even when dueling.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thsFbDtLrVg

Even going by just the movie:

Sidious holding his blade out at Windu and not striking him down speaks for itself. It's a perfect representation of the fight. Mace then grapples with Sidious, with Sheev realizing not killing Mace right there was a mistake.

Sidious was clearly fighting better against Yoda, even when dueling.

No. Blatantly wrong. That video uses Legends material. I'm pretty sure we are discussing canon.

Originally posted by samappo
No. Blatantly wrong. That video uses Legends material. I'm pretty sure we are discussing canon.

I'm pretty sure the ROTS movie and the material relating to it is canon.

The movie is canon, the novelisation is not. Therefore all the theory about Vaapad can't be used. Like I've posted above, using canon sources only, Sidious appears to be in complete and utter control of the fight the whole time.

The Making of RotS confirm Mace "defeated" Palpatine, but as the scene was re-thought, it turns out that defeat was just Sidious overexaggerating a weakness.

The RotS junior novel also paints a similar situation. So... yeh, Sidious let him win.

Originally posted by MythLord
The Making of RotS confirm Mace "defeated" Palpatine, but as the scene was re-thought, it turns out that defeat was just Sidious overexaggerating a weakness.

The RotS junior novel also paints a similar situation. So... yeh, Sidious let him win.

Well, Mace factually isn't a better swordsman than Sheev to begin with; quite the opposite. Sheev throwing the fight is never directly stated in canon but is acknowledged as a possibility on the SW website and would be the most plausible explanation that reconciles the known facts on the matter.

He threw the fight.

Mace is closer to Dooku, Maul and the rest than Yoda or Sidious.

Originally posted by relentless1
Palpatine let Mace win; he wanted to put Anakin into a do or die situation where he'd have to pick either Palpatine and in essence his wifes life or the Jedi. the facts support this:

1. He ALLOWS Anakin to go and tell Mace that he is Sidious, he in fact encourages this.

2. While Anakin is in the meditation chamber Sidious is heard communicating to him the urgency of his life; if Palpatine dies; so does Padme.

3. Sidious effortlessly kills 3 Jedi masters who are all said to be the best swordsmen in the order.

4. He had Mace at blade point and didn't press the attack; this shows that he's trying to prolong the fight until Anakin can arrive.

5. When Mace "disarms" Sidious it just so happens to coincide EXACTLY with Anakin entering the room; all Anakin sees is Mace holding his blade to a frail scared old man trying to back away from the conflict. If you watch the film this is blatantly clear that when Anakin enters the room Sidious had JUST been disarmed and was scampering away from Mace.

6. Only when Mace tries to arrest Sidious does he actually attack with his lightning, again he's trying to force a decision from Anakin and being jailed wont produce that effect, only after the lightning attack does Mace resolve to kill Palpatine and finally force Anakins hand.

7. Sidious plays possum, claiming that his powers are weak and goading Anakin into action; once Anakin makes his fateful decision, Sidious springs back into action killing Mace.
Not sure how anyone's opinion can differ from this.

Originally posted by relentless1
Palpatine let Mace win; he wanted to put Anakin into a do or die situation where he'd have to pick either Palpatine and in essence his wifes life or the Jedi. the facts support this:

1. He ALLOWS Anakin to go and tell Mace that he is Sidious, he in fact encourages this.

2. While Anakin is in the meditation chamber Sidious is heard communicating to him the urgency of his life; if Palpatine dies; so does Padme.

3. Sidious effortlessly kills 3 Jedi masters who are all said to be the best swordsmen in the order.

4. He had Mace at blade point and didn't press the attack; this shows that he's trying to prolong the fight until Anakin can arrive.

5. When Mace "disarms" Sidious it just so happens to coincide EXACTLY with Anakin entering the room; all Anakin sees is Mace holding his blade to a frail scared old man trying to back away from the conflict. If you watch the film this is blatantly clear that when Anakin enters the room Sidious had JUST been disarmed and was scampering away from Mace.

6. Only when Mace tries to arrest Sidious does he actually attack with his lightning, again he's trying to force a decision from Anakin and being jailed wont produce that effect, only after the lightning attack does Mace resolve to kill Palpatine and finally force Anakins hand.

7. Sidious plays possum, claiming that his powers are weak and goading Anakin into action; once Anakin makes his fateful decision, Sidious springs back into action killing Mace.

And for those claiming that this is all too convenient, its well established that Sidious can see into the future and change his plans accordingly; this ability may have failed him come RTOJ but he was in his prime for this during the events of his ascension.



Overall your analysis is sound but I have just a couple of issues:

5. How could Palpatine possibly know Mace was about to attempt to disarm him in that moment?

6. He didn't really get a good opportunity to use Lightning earlier as he was caught up in a pretty intense and close up Saber battle.
But we know (as per Lucas), that when he first fires his Lightning that he was attempting to destroy Mace.

I think people give too much credit to Sheev tbh.

I think the best explantion is he toyed with with the B-team and turned serious when he realized he couldn't speedblitz Mace the same way he had the others. I mean he seems to be pushed to his limit when mace locks blades with him and then once Anakin lands then yeah he likely threw the fight.

But i don't think Sheev did so from the beginning .

Tl:dr

He likely threw the fight at the very end but he wasn't toying with Mace throughout the entire duration of the fight.

It can't be proven either way.

The universe itself has made sure not to state whether Palatine three the fight.

who Palatine Three?

Fugg.

That's pretty rich coming from the resident typo guy.

I'm of the opinion that he somewhat threw the fight, but would definitely not have stomped Mace if he had been trying to win.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Overall your analysis is sound but I have just a couple of issues:

5. How could Palpatine possibly know Mace was about to attempt to disarm him in that moment?

6. He didn't really get a good opportunity to use Lightning earlier as he was caught up in a pretty intense and close up Saber battle.
But we know (as per Lucas), that when he first fires his Lightning that he was attempting to destroy Mace.

5. As I stated originally Palpatine has a firm grasp on future events; he can see into the future. not only that but #2 is a clear example of having a mental link with Skywalker... he's speaking inside his head and we know this because what he's saying is much different than how he worded his pitch to Anakin in the chancellors chambers earlier, this is clearly Sidious speaking to Anakin telepathically.

6. Wether or not he was trying to destroy Mace with his lightning is irrelevant because it was a tool to push Mace into kill mode. Notice before the lightning he says "youre under arrest my lord" and after he tells Anakin that Sidious is too dangerous to be left alive. Sidious got what he wanted regardless so I don't know that Lucas' comment here really means much in context of the scene

^ Good answers.

Windu beat Sidious legitimately.

So Sidious sees the future and ****s the timeline. Barry is Palpatine confirmed!

Originally posted by relentless1
5. As I stated originally Palpatine has a firm grasp on future events; he can see into the future. not only that but #2 is a clear example of having a mental link with Skywalker... he's speaking inside his head and we know this because what he's saying is much different than how he worded his pitch to Anakin in the chancellors chambers earlier, this is clearly Sidious speaking to Anakin telepathically.

6. Wether or not he was trying to destroy Mace with his lightning is irrelevant because it was a tool to push Mace into kill mode. Notice before the lightning he says "youre under arrest my lord" and after he tells Anakin that Sidious is too dangerous to be left alive. Sidious got what he wanted regardless so I don't know that Lucas' comment here really means much in context of the scene
Anakin threw his ass into the pit, though.

Every piece of canon concerning that fight either paints the picture that Sidious controlled it, or it's ambiguous and could be perceived either way. If you want proof/evidence that Mace did not legitimately disarm Sidious, then I will provide it.