Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Shaak Ti as of The Force Unleashed -- Galen Marek as of his fight with Shaak Ti.

Savage and Ventress are in their prime -- composite versions. Let's disregard Dark Dicsiple, though.

Battle takes place on Hypori.

I'd side with team two, Galen's the MVP with his Shaak level dueling and noticeably greater Force power than anyone else in this fight.

Savage lets out a mighty roar as he impales Shaak and Galen on his long protrusions.

Savage Solos

Team 1.

Shaak solos

Team 1.

Either on team 2 solos

Team 2. Either beats either of team 1.

Team 1, not close at all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Team 2. Either beats either of team 1. Reasons?

Savage beating Plo and Ventress being his approximate equal or contending with Anakin/Obi-Wan is above Shaak driving back a Galen not long after his struggle with the Darth Desolous simulacrum, and obviously better than Galen himself. I know you said we're not counting Dark Disciple, but Ventress drives Dooku back in that, IIRC.

The only way team 1 could win is through Force abuse to get rid of Ventress, but she's quite resilient and quite powerful in her own right.

There's so much wrong with your statement...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Team 2. Either beats either of team 1.

Damn, Nova should retire now.

@Nova: Would you like to debate this? I am genuinely curious on what lead you to adopt this stance tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Savage beating Plo and Ventress being his approximate equal or contending with Anakin/Obi-Wan is above Shaak driving back a Galen not long after his struggle with the Darth Desolous simulacrum, and obviously better than Galen himself. I know you said we're not counting Dark Disciple, but Ventress drives Dooku back in that, IIRC.

The only way team 1 could win is through Force abuse to get rid of Ventress, but she's quite resilient and quite powerful in her own right.
Savage "beat" plo just like tpm kenobi "beat" maul or how cade skywalker "beat" darth krayt. Getting your leg cut in one move by plo koon isn't remotely impressive

And taking the duo in season 3 is nice and all(even though it also featured crap ventress ragdolling the crap out of her superiors in anakin and kenobi) but given how a supposedly superior version of oppress was outclassed by koon, stomped by maul and then was quickly dispatched by kenobi with his vast superior in maul helping him, I don't think we should take what he(or ventress) did in that single season 3 arc too seriorusly

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
There's so much wrong with your statement...

Right, but that's coming from you. So all good.



No, it seems like I've sufficiently attracted a reaction, albeit not the explosive overreaction I was expecting from you. Ah, well. Maybe next time.

To sate your curiosity, though, I'm seriously unimpressed with Galen in sabers, especially early-game. Even on the dark side nexus of the Jedi Temple Ruins, Galen "need all of skill to survive" against a mere simulacrum of Darth Desolous, which may or may not have enjoyed the same amp. The fact that he's given pause by the likes of Maris Brood and Shadow Guards even after the Felucia incident (when he was supposed to grow drastically) isn't aiding my impression of him either.

But I ask that you grant me clemency and avoid turning this into a debate, thank you very much.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Savage "beat" plo just like tpm kenobi "beat" maul or how cade skywalker "beat" darth krayt. Getting your leg cut in one move by plo koon isn't remotely impressive

And taking the duo in season 3 is nice and all(even though it also featured crap ventress ragdolling the crap out of her superiors in anakin and kenobi) but given how a supposedly superior version of oppress was outclassed by koon, stomped by maul and then was quickly dispatched by kenobi with his vast superior in maul helping him, I don't think we should take what he(or ventress) did in that single season 3 arc too seriorusly

Superficial wounds mean literally nothing and have no correlation with, let alone effect on, the outcome of fights.

I don't need Season 3.

Team 2.

Nova's lowballing is as shit as ever

So are your taunts and jibes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
To sate your curiosity, though, I'm seriously unimpressed with Galen in sabers, especially early-game. Even on the dark side nexus of the Jedi Temple Ruins, Galen "need all of skill to survive" against a mere simulacrum of Darth Desolous, which may or may not have enjoyed the same amp. The fact that he's given pause by the likes of Maris Brood and Shadow Guards even after the Felucia incident (when he was supposed to grow drastically) isn't aiding my impression of him either.

1. Is the Desolus duel even canon? Since it's not in the novel, not in the comic, and not even in the main game. It's a f-ucking DLC.

2. No matter how many times you reiterate this, Galen did not struggle against Maris. He just fought a damn Bull Rancor, he was conflicted with himself, yet the text still makes no note whatsoever that he was struggling. Nice fanfic of you.

And in the comic he flat out stomps her.

3. One of the Shadow Guards knocked him down when he was literally chatting with Juno. That Shadow Guard could tank his all out Force attack which is in the army buster++ range. The 2nd Guard was even better than that. So nice try

4. I can do my own lowballing game. Ventress was stalled by a fresh padawan, she was stalemated by a dying Kenobi, blitzed by Barriss. She's also said to be GI level by Filoni (I think?) who is below Old Master Maul, who is in stomp range for Ben Kenobi, who is roughly equal to ANH Vader, who is only moderatly above prime Galen.

Savage was stomped by Maul, who was beaten by a dog. He was also beaten by Kenobi when had Maul as backup.

Shaak oneshots Team 2

1. It's not a DLC, lmfao. It was part of the original versions of the game that were released (PS2, PSP, Wii), and he's featured in both the game's databank and TCSWE.

2. He staggered backwards from Maris' assault and was won through using a form that she didn't know. And I acknowledge the circumstances as I did in the other thread (he was weakened and it was on a nexus); still not impressive given that this is post-Felucia and Maris wasn't even fully trained. As for the comic version, I don't remember anything about that, so I'll take your word for it but it doesn't make much difference since almost everything is depicted differently there. IIRC, he beats Vader legit in the comic too. Not saying it's invalid, just using a consistent metric. And even if we skip Maris, his record's still about as inspiring as a frozen corpse at the base of Mt. Everest.

3. Yeah, the second Shadow Guard was literally going back and forth with him in saber combat. Also, this one wasn't capable of resisting his all-out Force attack at all - he got casually choked and then hurled into the lava (in fairness, I don't remember if this happens in the novel).

4. Too bad this isn't lowballing, this is Galen's consistent game. He doesn't even have one good skill feat under his belt. Let's review:

- He struggles with Kota (who later gets one-shotted by Boba Fett) and wins through tiring Kota out and Kota going doolally over a Force Vision.

- He has to use all of his skill to survive against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that Jedi padawans face as part of their trials, and he's amped by the DS nexus in the Temple ruins to boot (whereas a simulacrum likely wouldn't be, but either way, shit-tier showing for him).

- He struggles with Paratus and wins through attacking Paratus with the Force when the latter breaks down crying because his mannequins got wrecked.

- He gets driven back by Shaak and wins because Shaak throws herself onto his blade.

- He's staggered by Maris' assault (factoring in the circumstances) and wins by switching to Juyo, which she doesn't know how to defend against.

- He has a back-and-forth with the Shadow Guard on Raxus Prime for some time.

- According to you, he's noticeably below ANH Vader, who's got shit-all for feats and is stated by sources to be the equivalent of a 2D-incarnation of his RotS self. And this is him by the end of the game, when he's supposed to have improved greatly.

Harsh assessment, yeah, but just show me where he's got anything that lets him beat Savage or Ventress at all, let alone easily. Especially noting that this is his Felucia incarnation. Half of these people he fights have nothing to their name and yet he struggles with them more consistently than TCW ****s Grievous up. Again, where are you getting that he beats Savage or Ventress easily? Unless you reckon that Shaak carries it in steamrolling fashion, which again, begs the question - how?

As I said, Galen could win through Force abuse, but the difference in sabers is probably too big.

Originally posted by SunRazer
- He struggles with Kota (who later gets one-shotted by Boba Fett) and wins through tiring Kota out and Kota going doolally over a Force Vision.

- He has to use all of his skill to survive against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that Jedi padawans face as part of their trials, and he's amped by the DS nexus in the Temple ruins to boot (whereas a simulacrum likely wouldn't be, but either way, shit-tier showing for him).

- He struggles with Paratus and wins through attacking Paratus with the Force when the latter breaks down crying because his mannequins got wrecked.

- He gets driven back by Shaak and wins because Shaak throws herself onto his blade.

- He's staggered by Maris' assault (factoring in the circumstances) and wins by switching to Juyo, which she doesn't know how to defend against.

- He has a back-and-forth with the Shadow Guard on Raxus Prime for some time.

- According to you, he's noticeably below ANH Vader, who's got shit-all for feats and is stated by sources to be the equivalent of a 2D-incarnation of his RotS self. And this is him by the end of the game, when he's supposed to have improved greatly.

1. Lmao at this Boba lowballing again. Boba cheapshotted a blind Kota. F-ucking hilarious. He was still a Juyo master, and powerful enough to shrug off an army buster's Force Lightning, which is hard even for the most powerful of Masters.

2. Pretty much yeah. Everyone has shit tier showings tho. Unless you think a guy who has Sidious+ potential and was trained by Vader mercilessly for over a decade is a sub padawan phag

3. He didn't struggle for shit, Paratus outpaced him because of his mechanical legs so he opted out. At no point is Paratus painted as a rival in sabers.

4. Yeah he did. By a Master who was 16 years ago: One of the most powerful Jedi, had Legendary strenght in the Force (at a time when the Chosen One, Yoda, and Mace were running around), was revered as one of the highest in the Order and most accomplished duelist, she was one of the greatest swordbeing in the Order and only the most skilled could even stand against her. Frankly her RotS accolades shit all over Plo's, someone who pretty much stalemated Ventress when injured and also Savage.

5. Why the f-uck it matters that he was staggered by her inital attack? Like that means anything...Galen was exhausted and conflicted, and he still mopped the floor with Maris.

6. He did. What of it? Like I said, and inferior Shadow Guard tanked a Force attack that would pulverize Ventress

7. TFU Vader > Sidious in sabers. Get rekt fagit

1. lol Kota has Force Sight and precognitive abilities (kind of how he can deflect blaster fire while blind, you know?), so the blind excuse is so shit that I'd throw it in my red bin for pickup on Monday mornings. Juyo master? ****ing Kavar has that accolade, not that I managed to find it on the Kota RT with Ctrl+F anyway.

2. Vader seems to have deliberately held back his training. I agree that this is a standard below what I would expect of him, but even so, as I said before, the actual standard of his performance isn't exactly much better.

3. Or rather, at no point is Galen presented as more skilled. Kazdan's mobility was giving him the edge in sabers, and that was it. Hence, Galen struggled - I'm referring to duelling as a whole here. Although the entire fight was just shit anyway since Kazdan gave up his attack and decided to send in the mannequins for whatever reason.

4. Firstly, being legendary in strength in no way means that you have to draw up names like Mace, Yoda or Anakin - all of whom would bend Shaak over with their pinky. The rest of that is ****ing Secura-tier and Plo has those accolades as well. Not that generic accolades like that prove anything - Plo's feats are still better. And no, Plo was losing to Ventress. He was the one hit by the kick, which he countered only with TK as opposed to martial skill. To his credit, he did manage to deprive Ventress of one of his blades, but he was losing after that.

5. Because it does matter, lol. Galen couldn't even win without resorting to Juyo. But as I said, the circumstances are there. It's not a particularly good example, just one example of many.

6. Yeah, and this one didn't tank shit since he got ragdolled, lmfao.

7. Then Sidious belongs in the beyond-shit tier. In all seriousness, the Emperor isn't even a duelist at this point.

I still haven't seen anything to suggest that he can beat them easily. Like literally, up to Felucia, he has no positive feats. Afterwards, he has, what, beating Maris. Oh my. Like, he wins all of his duels through Force power, circumstances, or his opponents just ****ing up.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot. He's beaten PROXY.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. lol Kota has Force Sight and precognitive abilities (kind of how he can deflect blaster fire while blind, you know?), so the blind excuse is so shit that I'd throw it in my red bin for pickup on Monday mornings. Juyo master? ****ing Kavar has that accolade, not that I managed to find it on the Kota RT with Ctrl+F anyway.

2. Vader seems to have deliberately held back his training. I agree that this is a standard below what I would expect of him, but even so, as I said before, the actual standard of his performance isn't exactly much better.

3. Or rather, at no point is Galen presented as more skilled. Kazdan's mobility was giving him the edge in sabers, and that was it. Hence, Galen struggled - I'm referring to duelling as a whole here. Although the entire fight was just shit anyway since Kazdan gave up his attack and decided to send in the mannequins for whatever reason.

4. Firstly, being legendary in strength in no way means that you have to draw up names like Mace, Yoda or Anakin - all of whom would bend Shaak over with their pinky. The rest of that is ****ing Secura-tier and Plo has those accolades as well. Not that generic accolades like that prove anything - Plo's feats are still better. And no, Plo was losing to Ventress. He was the one hit by the kick, which he countered only with TK as opposed to martial skill. To his credit, he did manage to deprive Ventress of one of his blades, but he was losing after that.

5. Because it does matter, lol. Galen couldn't even win without resorting to Juyo. But as I said, the circumstances are there. It's not a particularly good example, just one example of many.

6. Yeah, and this one didn't tank shit since he got ragdolled, lmfao.

7. Then Sidious belongs in the beyond-shit tier. In all seriousness, the Emperor isn't even a duelist at this point.

I still haven't seen anything to suggest that he can beat them easily. Like literally, up to Felucia, he has no positive feats. Afterwards, he has, what, beating Maris. Oh my. Like, he wins all of his duels through Force power, circumstances, or his opponents just ****ing up.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot. He's beaten PROXY.

1. Yeah but Kavar can't tank shit, let alone the lightning of a guy who TKs thousands of droids

2. It's never stated Vader held back his training, right the contrary actually.

3. Translation: A pathetic lowball attempt at your end. Gotcha.

4. Lmao at those being Aayla tier, and no Plo doesn't have those accolades. Neither are his feats better. Holding of a dozen Magnaguard > Stalemating Ventress.

5. Holy shit, where the f-uck you get all this retarded assumptions? Galen uses 3 lightsaber forms. Soresu, which he used at first because he was conflicted, not because he was outmatched. Shien, which he uses for blaster wielding foes, does Maris use blasters? No. And lastly Juyo, so when he decided to end the fight he switched to Juyo, because that's an offensive style. Do you expect him to beat Maris with Soresu? F-ucking hilarious, your retirement can't come soon enough

6. At least you could read the fight if you really want to lowball Galen smh. Galen beat that guy by throwing a spinning fan at him, cutting off his leg.

7. Shit retort.

8. That's because so far we only debated dueling. In which case I wouldn't say he beats them easily, or at all, only that he's close. But it's not sabers only, it's all out. And Galen is hilariously more powerful than either Ventress or Savage, and so is Shaak.

1. Kota can't tank it either, he just partly repelled it. Galen's casual Lightning bursts (which are what he used on Kota) aren't especially overwhelming either. Trying to draw a parallel between that and army-busting TK is just laughable. Especially when said TK was the product of maximum effort, gathered power, and more than one TK attack. So what if he can TK thousands of droids? That requires a level of effort and focus that he wasn't remotely approaching when he zapped Kota with Lightning. The notion of there being "thousands" of them is a rough estimate on his part and not necessarily accurate to begin with. Anyway he has a better TK feat - musing that he could knock down Kazdan's junk castle with a single Push.

We're discussing skill here, at any rate. Trying to bring Kota's power into it is a deflection of the point. Bottom line is that Kota isn't even on par with Kavar in skill, and yet Galen was only even with him. After that, he needs all of his skill to survive against Desolous whilst amped. So where is the impressive part?

2. I'm presuming that based on the fact that Vader never intended him to reach his full potential. But if you have evidence of otherwise, I'd like to see it.

3. Again, there's no lowballing. That's just part of his catalogue of having no skill feats worth writing home about.

4. Plo does have those accolades - one of the most skilled, one of the most powerful etc. Aayla also has one of the most skilled; she just doesn't have the power accolades and we're discussing skill here. Holding off a dozen Magnaguards? You pulled that one out of your fat crack, unless you're talking about her after getting the staff, in which case that feat can't be used here. Prior to that she was running away whilst clashing with one or two Guards at a time and was still disarmed. Earlier on she struggled with a lone Magnaguard.

5. Funny that you're the resident Obi-Wan fanboy but don't think that beating someone with Soresu is plausible. Kenobi vs Grievous? Anyway, saying that he couldn't win without Juyo is a stretch on my part but even then he won on the account of Maris' unfamiliarity as opposed to anything else. If he was really as hilariously more skilled as you've suggested here and elsewhere, he could easily win in the Soresu form indeed; just because it's defensive doesn't mean you can't win with it. Maris wasn't even fully trained, for god's sake. It's literally a matter of exploiting a mistake on her part and then ending her. That Galen didn't do so is yet another mark against him; he's spared this one solely because of the circumstances in the fight which were arrayed against him.

6. Ah, the ragdolling is just in the PS2 version, then. Fair enough.

Also, checked the first Shadow Guard's apparent resistance of Galen's TK, which happens nowhere. He gets sent flying a considerable distance and simply rolls with the impact. That's not him blocking the TK or anything indicating comparable power. Otherwise, Revan can resist Vitiate's charged-up Force Wave on a DS nexus.

7. Shit claim deserves no better.

8. Not really. Ventress TK'ing both Obi-Wan and Anakin together (not the one in S3), casually uprooting trees, hurling Obi-Wan with immense potency, etc. is pretty impressive on her part; enough so to keep her from being dominated. Savage shattering a prison cell frame of Mandalorian iron is pretty good also, to say nothing of his feats whilst enraged.

Felucia Galen is close to them in sabers? Again, based on what? Not him being even with Kota or struggling with Desolous whilst amped? Because apart from beating PROXY, that's all he has up till Felucia. That's someone that Ventress or Savage would beat pretty damn easily. So again, it's down to Force abuse, because team 1's losing a lightsaber fight.

1. Laughable to you maybe, it represents how powerful Galen is, and Kota repelled his TK and lightning attacks.

Also skill on it's own doesn't matter for shit. Kota is so far above Kavar in power that it makes up for any skill gap you presume, for which there are no actual proof anyway. They are both Juyo masters, and that's all they have skill accolde wise.

2.

Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

3. Eh yeah it is. You bring up a comfrontation where they didn't actually dueled, to lowball his dueling capability.

4. Nope he still doesn't. And yeah that feat can be used here, she held them off, your pathetic lowballing again won't change that.

5. Shit example, Kenobi's Soresu was being overwhelmed so he switched to offense too. Anyhow all your argument here is shit tier, only because a SITH decided to use THE SITH FORM instead of the PASSIVE Soresu, to beat his opponent suddenly he's shit? You are literally saying that Galen's preference makes him bad

6. The point is that he wasn't even hurt by an all out Force attack from Galen. And you want to lowball him with guys like that.

7. It's a canon statement, sorry if it rustles your jimmy.

8. Neither of those showings are close to Galen's, so yeah...

9. Based on contending with TFU Shaak, who is > RotS Shaak, who is > Plo, who is ~ Pre-prime Ventress and Savage.

RotS Shaak is > Plo? Based on?

Better accolades.

Plo's generic accolades:

One of the most militaristic and dangerous of the Jedi insurgents, Plo Koon served on the Jedi Council for more than 10 years.
--Star Wars Insider 87

Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Bil-laba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him.
--Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Plo's ability to act quickly makes him both a fierce warrior and a fearsome starship pilot.
--Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

Calm and confident, Plo Koon is a gifted warrior, while at the same time, a paternal figure to many.
--The StarWars.com 10: Best Jedi

Shaak's generic accolades:

Ti is a highly skilled lightsaber duelist backed by a group of Force-using natives of the planet, as well as a sarlacc.
--Star Wars Insider #140

As a member of the High Council, a fierce combatant, and master tactician, Shaak Ti has been involved in many of the most deadly conflicts in the Clone Wars.
--Star Wars UK Magazine 6.17

The Togruta Jedi Shaak Ti was noted for her compassion, but was also known as a cunning and dangerous fighter.
--The Star Wars Vehicle Collection #51

Shaak Ti's lightsabre movements were fluid and graceful, making the most of her enhanced spatial awareness. Few escaped her deadly, swirling blade.
--The Official Star Wars Fact File #74

Shaak Ti was a formidable combat specialist, expert in melee fighting in chaotic and densely packed conditions.
(source Myth?)

Their Clone Wars Advantures accolde:

With advanced telekinesis abilities and a mastery of the powerful Djem So Lightsaber form, Jedi Master Plo Koon would prove a challenge for any Jedi.
--Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Adventures

Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!
--The Clone Wars Adventures

I find Shaak's here better, but one could argue they are equal.

Then Plo has a character opinion of someone who never met him, and when Shaak wasn't even a master yet:

He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.
--Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

And then Shaak has these:

There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lack entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda could become.
--Revenge of the Sith novelisation

The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat.
--The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

Hmm, I suppose it depends on if you take accolades over feats or not, but fair enough; Shaak does have better accolades.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Shaak Ti was a formidable combat specialist, expert in melee fighting in chaotic and densely packed conditions.
(source Myth?)

It's from the Character Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by MythLord
Hmm, I suppose it depends on if you take accolades over feats or not, but fair enough; Shaak does have better accolades.

Plo's Ventress feat ain't that better than Shaak's MG feat (or at all), to dismiss the accolades imo.

Originally posted by MythLord
It's from the Character Encyclopedia.

Kay, you might want to edit that in to your RT

>claims Ti has better accolades
>omits Koon's best accolade that Ti doesn't have.

Kek.

Which is?

Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.
--Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

Koon >

Shaak's TCWA accolade > that trash tbh.

Not at all lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.
--Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

Koon >

1. I didn't mention that because that's about power not so much about dueling.

2. Shaak being Legendarily powerful as of TCW is the same shit.

3. Shaak still has the same accolade:

After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.
--Star Wars Insider #140

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not at all lol.

Being one of the most powerful Jedi is statistically a pretty shit accolade. When accounting for the top tiers of the Jedi order it is an accolade that would apply to every single one of them.

"Legendary strength in the force" is not, to the same extent. Even if it is, they both speak to the exact same thing, so how you think a singular quote like that places Koon above Ti is beyond me.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. I didn't mention that because that's about power not so much about dueling.

2. Shaak being Legendarily powerful as of TCW is the same shit.

3. Shaak still has the same accolade:

After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.
--Star Wars Insider #140 It explictly refers to his "fighting abilities" so I'd say its relevant to he dueling prowess yeah rather than exclusive to Force power.

No its not lol. That only means she's very well known.

That not the same, and you know precisely why.

Originally posted by Selenial
Being one of the most powerful Jedi is statistically a pretty shit accolade. When accounting for the top tiers of the Jedi order it is an accolade that would apply to every single one of them.Complete conjecture.

Not remotely, familiarise yourself with the meaning of the word.

And it's rather simple Sel, Koon is among the most powerful Jedi ever. Ti isn't.

Originally posted by SunRazer


3. Yeah, the second Shadow Guard was literally going back and forth with him in saber combat. Also, this one wasn't capable of resisting his all-out Force attack at all - he got casually choked and then hurled into the lava (in fairness, I don't remember if this happens in the novel).


Hm? Galen defeated the 2nd Shadow Guard by hurling a spinning fan at him as they were fighting back and forth which surprised the Guard and cut him to pieces.

The first Guard died in a Force Lighting struggle, being blown back by all its power going into him. Though in the comic, the Guard gets frozen in carbonite when Galen threw his lightsaber at a gas pipe from behind.

Where you getting that a Guard got choked and hurled into lava?

Beni going full retard, as always when he talks about Ti. You are still so salty about Sel and assoka?

No I just have Ti where she's supposed to be, and this infuriates you. Much to my amusement I will admit.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, but that's coming from you. So all good.



No, it seems like I've sufficiently attracted a reaction, albeit not the explosive overreaction I was expecting from you. Ah, well. Maybe next time.

To sate your curiosity, though, I'm seriously unimpressed with Galen in sabers, especially early-game. Even on the dark side nexus of the Jedi Temple Ruins, Galen "need all of skill to survive" against a mere simulacrum of Darth Desolous, which may or may not have enjoyed the same amp. The fact that he's given pause by the likes of Maris Brood and Shadow Guards even after the Felucia incident (when he was supposed to grow drastically) isn't aiding my impression of him either.

But I ask that you grant me clemency and avoid turning this into a debate, thank you very much.

I won't turn this into a debate since you asked politely ( plus Zoltan seems to have you covered ). You implied there's an existing quote stating that "all of Galen's skills" were required to merely survive against the simulacrum? Could you post it if that's the case. If not, do you mind if I asked why you assumed such?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No I just have Ti where she's supposed to be, and this infuriates you. Much to my amusement I will admit.

Yeah surely. That's why you used to have Ti high, but then got salty about Sel and sicne then lowball her at every turn. Not sad at all

Huh, for a moment I thought that was a rebuttal.

Hey Beni, do you have steam?

Why make a rebuttal when applying common sense is enough?

I guess this is the part where I say: concession accepted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Hey Beni, do you have steam? Naturally, why?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I guess this is the part where I say: concession accepted.

If it lowers your salt level enough so you can sleep go ahead

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally, why?

You should get Istrolid. It's a free ship designer/point capture game I think you'd like.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If it lowers your salt level enough so you can sleep go ahead

I'm pretty sure most of the people here have

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tRYwO6LXL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

From their guilty consciences.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If it lowers your salt level enough so you can sleep go ahead Kuel, concession accepted.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You should get Istrolid. It's a free ship designer/point capture game I think you'd like. Sounds intriguing I guess.

Mostly I want you to join so I can actually play someone who's not a bot. It's not a super well known game but the people who do play it have hit the skill cap for this sort of game and tend to thrash newbies.

Maybe, but I'm replaying Kotor right now.

Quote mining or because you actually enjoy it?

As if I'd quote mine TOR.

Nah, I just feel like playing it. Haven't really done so since I first got it tbh.

Fair enough. I remember I got it about 8 years ago and I tried to play it but my computer didn't have enough processing power.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Fair enough. I remember I got it about 8 years ago and I tried to play it but my computer didn't have enough processing power. And now you can play it on a tablet.

It's too late for me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Superficial wounds mean literally nothing and have no correlation with, let alone effect on, the outcome of fights.

I don't need Season 3.
"Superficial wounds?" Is that why a couple of panels later oppress noted he was injured and then at the end of the comic he needed maul's help healing that "superficial wound"?

And only being able to block one of your opponent's move before getting your leg cut is a pretty good indication of which outcome that fight was headed towards IMO.

And yea if your argument for oppress hinges on getting outclassed by plo koon, then yea you need season 3.

Plo Koon has:
-Beating a superior version of ventress to the one that beat fisto(one of the most skilled Jedi in history) while injured
-And outclassing a superior version of the oppress that with favorable aid stalemated season 4 ventress
ROTS Shaak ti has:
- getting stomped by grevious(she was exhausted but she also had the help of several council masters, masters and padawans)
- blitzing Maganguards
Accolade/Statement wise for Koon
-Koon scales off fisto who is one of the most skilled Jedi in the order's history
-Considered a worthy challenge by TPM maul, a cocky fck who regularly underestimates opponents
-being one of the most powerful Jedi in history
Rots Shaak has:
-being listed alongside dooku(which doesn't remotely imply parity) because she happens to be one of the only two makashi duelists still active at the time
-being a skilled combatant

There is no argument for ti against Koon pre tfu

That's some Legend tier retarded post for sure.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
That's some Legend tier retarded post for sure.
Which part didn't you get?

Only thing I don't get is how can you even use the keyboard while having down syndrome.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. Laughable to you maybe, it represents how powerful Galen is, and Kota repelled his TK and lightning attacks.

It's laughable that you're trying to pass off his casual lightning bursts as being anything of that magnitude, yeah. If QTE's count, Galen fugging stomps Kota with the Force when he goes all-out.

And you're accusing me of lowballing; talk about the ****ing highballing.



Still need the quote for Kota being a Juyo master. On the other hand, Kavar's a skilled master of forms IV - VII and their Jar'kai variants, a lightsaber virtuoso in an era of expert duelists, and was a renowned Jedi Guardian with a reputation that extended past the Order. So as you claim with Shaak and Plo, Kavar's better because his accolades are better. Because really, Kota's only feats are dueling evenly with a Galen who goes on to struggle with the Desolous simulacrum and being one-shotted by Boba Fett. That doesn't make a difference.



"Relentless tutelage" is natural for a Sith. In no way does that preclude Vader holding back his training.



And yet they did... Kazdan's mobility is an integral part of his character and dueling. Sure, the example on its own may not be much, but you're missing the point; Galen's record is littered with him using circumstance or Force abuse to win. He doesn't have a single pure saber victory (Maris is his closest).



Lol Maul considered him one of the absolute best alongside Mace, he's stated to be a challenge for any Jedi to beat, and he's one of the most powerful Jedi in history. Shaak's accolades aren't better in the slightest. "Only the best can stand against her?" Plo's one of the best. The rest is stuff that Plo has word-for-word.

Yeah, no, they can't be used unless she's carrying a saberstaff here. The disparity between her performance before and after getting her hands on the staff is proof that something changed drastically, and we've yet to factor in that she excels at fighting within mobs and crowds. There's no shit lowballing here, there's just you being a blatant Shaak fanboy. Fap harder, squirt.

You couldn't even respond to Shaak struggling with a lone Magnaguard.



Yeah, Kenobi went offensive, or rather, counteroffensive, with Soresu. So there's nothing different here.

Nowhere did I say it makes him bad (I rescinded my comment about him not being able to win without Juyo). Although it certainly doesn't reflect that vast disparity you were imagining between the two, circumstances being taken into account.



Sorry, but neither were the droids that Galen threw on Raxus Prime with his "all-out" hurricane. Galen's not at the point where he can just liquefy people with his Force Waves; they're just going to throw them.

EDIT: If you're referring to the Shadow Guard tanking the impact and rolling with it, again, that'd be like saying Revan resisted Vitiate's charged-up Wave on a nexus. Not quite true, although I'd like a quote for what happens next. In the PS2 game, this attack kills the Shadow Guard.



Too bad far more canon statements (including more recent ones) have a vastly more skilled Vader struggling with TESB Luke.



They're close to Galen's showings that he shows on a whim instead of having to charge up his attacks.



Yeah, no. Plo's accolades are better than Shaak's and so are his feats. Savage and Ventress are each his better.

Galen's "contending" consisted of him being driven backwards and desperately cutting off Sarlaac teeth and spamming Lightning to avoid dying. Yeah, Savage and Ventress have him beat, and easily at that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Fap harder, squirt. I enjoy this pun.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I won't turn this into a debate since you asked politely ( plus Zoltan seems to have you covered ). You implied there's an existing quote stating that "all of Galen's skills" were required to merely survive against the simulacrum? Could you post it if that's the case. If not, do you mind if I asked why you assumed such?

Kento Marek's Force Ghost warns you beforehand that you will need all your skills to survive.

Originally posted by SunRazer


EDIT: If you're referring to the Shadow Guard tanking the impact and rolling with it, again, that'd be like saying Revan resisted Vitiate's charged-up Wave on a nexus. Not quite true, although I'd like a quote for what happens next. In the PS2 game, this attack kills the Shadow Guard.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Only thing I don't get is how can you even use the keyboard while having down syndrome.
I'm sorry this is hard for you to understand so I'll break it down for you

Feats: Plo Koon>ROTS Ti
Accolades: Plo Koon>ROTS Ti
Overall: Plo Koon>ROTS Ti

and if people want to actually consider oppress's victory valid despite him being outclassed in the actual fight, then thats fine because using that line of logic I can use the following scaling:
Koon>Fisto>AOTC Kneobi>TPM Kneobi>TPM Maul(one of the most skilled sith lords in history)>Qui Gon(one of the most skilled jedi in history)

The above is still way better scaling than anything ti gets

Ah, fair. But Waves generally don't inflict much damage, as I noted above.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm? Galen defeated the 2nd Shadow Guard by hurling a spinning fan at him as they were fighting back and forth which surprised the Guard and cut him to pieces.

The first Guard died in a Force Lighting struggle, being blown back by all its power going into him. Though in the comic, the Guard gets frozen in carbonite when Galen threw his lightsaber at a gas pipe from behind.

Where you getting that a Guard got choked and hurled into lava?

That's from the PS2 game. He gets Choked and launched into the melted ore. Didn't happen in the novel, as we concluded.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's from the PS2 game. He gets Choked and launched into the melted ore. Didn't happen in the novel, as we concluded.

Ah.

Yeah, no. Plo's accolades are better than Shaak's and so are his feats. Savage and Ventress are each his better.

.
Aside from Koon injuring the former's leg(an injury oppress was getting healed at the n of the comic) in one move and disarming a pre prime version of the latter while injured, Is there a basis for your claim that both are superior (other than cheapshots during lulls in combat and being able to push someone back in a bladelock)?

Plo started the fight by charging Savage as the clones fired. Savage then proceeded to block Plo's attack whilst TK'ing the clones off the ledge, which means he started the fight with an edge. Plo takes advantage of that distraction to cut Savage's leg, which is responded to by Savage kicking Plo in the face immediately thereafter.

In fairness, Savage won when Plo was looking away, so I could settle for them being even though Plo himself only landed his attack with the aid of a distraction and Savage at least tagged Plo's face with a kick without circumstances.

And yeah, the lightsaber burn was superficial since it didn't even hinder Savage in the fight. Obviously he needed to get it treated afterwards as you would any lightsaber burn, but it didn't impact his performance.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Plo started the fight by charging Savage as the clones fired. Savage then proceeded to block Plo's attack whilst TK'ing the clones off the ledge, which means he started the fight with an edge. Plo takes advantage of that distraction to cut Savage's leg, which is responded to by Savage kicking Plo in the face immediately thereafter.

In fairness, Savage won when Plo was looking away, so I could settle for them being even though Plo himself only landed his attack with the aid of a distraction and Savage at least tagged Plo's face with a kick without circumstances.

And yeah, the lightsaber burn was superficial since it didn't even hinder Savage in the fight. Obviously he needed to get it treated afterwards as you would any lightsaber burn, but it didn't impact his performance.
1. Nope, The clones were dispatched before Koon and Oppress blocked each other's blades. The clones had absolutely nothing to do with oppress getting his leg cut
2. Stating the obvious, injuring someone's leg is>>>repsonding with a kick after the fact that has no visible affect on your opponent
3. The fight only was three panels. Oppress landing a kick in response and then the fight getting interrupted doens't remotely prove the injury was "superficial". Clearly given that he noted he was injured and then ha dmaul help him heal his injury, it clearly mattered

Shaak Ti is such garbage, lol.

1. Not at all. Plo is clearly seen directly in front of Savage before the clones fire and in the next panel, Savage seems to have his blade locked with someone off-panel as he blasts the clones away - we can presume that to be Plo. There's no way Plo was doing nothing for all that time; not when he was right in front of Savage even before the clones attacked. And if you start the fight against a distracted opponent, you're at an immediate advantage. They can block your next few blows or otherwise but you control the flow of the fight.

2. Not really. They were both superficial injuries; Savage wasn't even given pause by Plo's leg cut given that he immediately kicks Plo in the face afterwards. And it did do something - it knocked Plo's face sideways. Not to mention that another clone tried to shoot Savage from behind mid-duel. We know that even the slightest distraction in a duel can be fatal (that should be obvious, but it's outright stated in the TPM junior novelization, Death Star, etc.), yet Savage managed to deflect that bolt back into the clone's head without even looking and proceeded to snatch Plo's breathing mask before the latter could respond; sure, it's taking advantage of a distraction, but it's still a good feat as far as skill and speed go, especially considering that Savage had to deal with a distraction of his own in that clone who tried to get him from behind.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Shaak Ti is such garbage, lol. Its tru.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Not at all. Plo is clearly seen directly in front of Savage before the clones fire and in the next panel, Savage seems to have his blade locked with someone off-panel as he blasts the clones away - we can presume that to be Plo. There's no way Plo was doing nothing for all that time; not when he was right in front of Savage even before the clones attacked. And if you start the fight against a distracted opponent, you're at an immediate advantage. They can block your next few blows or otherwise but you control the flow of the fight.

2. Not really. They were both superficial injuries; Savage wasn't even given pause by Plo's leg cut given that he immediately kicks Plo in the face afterwards. And it did do something - it knocked Plo's face sideways. Not to mention that another clone tried to shoot Savage from behind mid-duel. We know that even the slightest distraction in a duel can be fatal (that should be obvious, but it's outright stated in the TPM junior novelization, Death Star, etc.) Savage managed to deflect that bolt back into the clone's head without even looking and proceeded to snatch Plo's breathing mask before the latter could respond; sure, it's taking advantage of a distraction, but it's still a good feat as far as skill and speed go.

1. Plo is clearly jumping out of the way. Additionally when we see the scan with the knocked over clone troopers, plo is not clashing with oppress

Not that this really matters. We see that the clones have been taken care of before we see plo koon and oppress in a bladelock which is before plo koon injures opress. The clones had absolutely nothing to do with plo breaking oppress's guard.

2 Oppress landing a kick doesn't at all prove he wasn't injured. And being able to make koon turn turn his head doesn't equate to giveing someone a inury that late rneeds healing.
That aside, I'd say you'r emissing the point. Being able to immediately pierce someone's guard with your saber showcases superior skill, responding with a physical hit doesn't have to.

3.Perfectly fine feat speed wise, but to use it to argue oppress "beat koon" or anything in terms of this battle is ridiculous. And yet again, I'd point out that what tpm kenobi did to tpm maul when he was distarcted(by his own stupidity) was way more impressive, yet no one here tries to actually make anything impressive out of what kenobi did.

Oppress being able to deflect blasterfire from behind and then take koon's mask off when he let his guard down is a grear tactical showing i guess, and maybe a speed one, but thats it.

1. Plo's jumping behind Savage as the clones fire. I don't see how that precludes Savage clashing with someone on one side as he Force Pushes the clones on the other, as the next panel shows.

2. It shows that he wasn't actually slowed by the cut to his leg. And of course it needs healing - it's a burn. Just because it should be healed afterwards doesn't mean it was of a negative impact in the fight. I mean, you don't leave your wounds there for show. That means nothing at all.

3. The only problem is that the TPM one is blatant PIS. But they're in a similar boat.

1. He's jumping out of the way. And that aside, we see the clones have already been dealt with(them being knocked over)before the scan where oppress and koon are in a bladelock. The clones had nothing to do with oppress getting his guard broken because they were already out of the fight.

2.there's also koon immediately after citing his injury as a reason they had to flee and couldn't take on the upcoming jedi. And being able to throw a kick doens't mean you aren't affected by an injury. There's such thing as adrenaline.
And that aside, being able to pierce someone's guard with a lightsaber is mor eimpressive than doing it with a kick as a result of that attack. Oppress kicking koon doesn't change that oppress had his guard immediately broken by a far more dangerous attack than the one he threw.

3. I could say the same of what oppress did

1. He's obviously behind Savage as of the next panel, so he had to be jumping over Savage or running around him. And I'm saying that in the scan with Savage pushing the clones away, he's arguably in an off-panel bladelock with Plo already.

2. Well, Sith feed off pain anyway, so there's more than one plausible argument to be made that Savage wasn't affected.

3. That's why I said they're in a similar boat. The difference being that Savage didn't require any sort of plot device which makes the TPM scene a lot easier to argue as PIS.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Shaak Ti is such garbage, lol.

Her Legends counterpart is better than her Canon one at least. Another notch for Legends among the many other notches.

1.Arguable. And say we give oppress this off panel bladelock, it doesn't change that after the clomes were dispatched he was still engaging koon in a bladelock which is still before us being shown a scan of the fight involving maul which is before koon ijure doppress.

2. Ther's also oppress having a verbal reaction to koon's hit and the vice versa not being true.

But being generous and assuming oppress wasn't affected by having his leg cut(though then you'd have to concede maul being hindered vs qui gon), I highly doubt his chances vs a dude who almost immediately broke his guard with a lightsaber

3. So a clone trooper interfering in the fight and stupidly hindering his own commander isn't a plot device?

1. In which case my point stands. Plo still had the edge over the flow of the fight by virtue of Savage having to contend with him and the clones at once at first.

2. Well, Savage is a reckless fighter, so that's an entirely plausible thing for someone to land wounds like that. As for conceding on Maul, no I don't, since they're completely separate characters. Maul's wound was explicitly stated to be a minimal, almost negligible, but still existent, hindrance on his fighting abilities.

3. I said Savage didn't need the plot device; it came of its own accord. So you can argue it as PIS but TPM will always be easier to argue as such. Obi-Wan clearly needed it in order for the story to progress.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. In which case my point stands. Plo still had the edge over the flow of the fight by virtue of Savage having to contend with him and the clones at once at first.

2. Well, Savage is a reckless fighter, so that's an entirely plausible thing for someone to land wounds like that. As for conceding on Maul, no I don't, since they're completely separate characters. Maul's wound was explicitly stated to be a minimal, almost negligible, but still existent, hindrance on his fighting abilities.

3. I said Savage didn't need the plot device; it came of its own accord. So you can argue it as PIS but TPM will always be easier to argue as such. Obi-Wan clearly needed it in order for the story to progress.
1. So? Koon injuring oppress was seprate from this speculative bladelock. And anyway its perfectly fair(and simpler) to just take what we're shown at face value that koon jumped out of the way of blasterfire, and oppress immediately responded with a force blast, and that the fight started after.
2. Good so, given oppress's reckless nature, koon can just keep racking up the saber wounds and hits before one bisects oppress into two or he's too injured to do anything.
3. Fair

1. My point is that Plo had the advantage from the get-go since Savage needed to snap his head away and focus on the clones for a brief moment; a moment being all you need to take control in a swordfight. In other words, Plo landed his cut with an advantage in the fight. Otherwise, they're even.

And I see it as Plo leaping over Savage, who can't immediately follow or counter Plo's move because the clones are shooting. Realistically, it's more likely to be a coordinated attack than one where the clones want to hamper their own commander.

2. Pretty sure the fight would reach a conclusion prior to that, but basically, yeah. Although Savage proved capable of fighting Ventress without the latter landing anything on him.

1. Except that thats not when koon landed his cut on oppress. The cut came after we see maul' inital exchange with the other jedi which came after the blade lock. So even if initally oppress was distracted, thats not an excuse for what happens later after we're shown that the clones aren't a factor anymore.
. Also, aside from us being shown koon jumping sideways in the scan before, if koon was in mid air or just landing while oppress had dealt with the clones, the fight still wouldn't have started untill after the clones are dispatched.

2. Most of the fight had ventress unarmed though. And when she was unarmed she did land multiple hit son him, its just oppress being a fcking tank didn't register her frail attempts. Anyway its also possible that koon, someone who tpm maul despite his ego and tendency to underestimate folks considered a challenge for him, and who disarmed an earlier ventress of one of her blades while injured is just that good.

1. Well, as I said, Koon could've been moving around Savage. The important thing is that he was behind Savage by the time the latter pushed the clones away. And indeed, that's an advantage that doesn't just translate for the next blow or two, but for the fight itself; in other words, Plo's leg cut is very much the product of the circumstances as well.

2. I'm talking about the part before she was disarmed.

It's fair to say that Savage, Ventress and Plo are roughly equal and that any can beat any of the others based on circumstance.

1. But Koon and Oppress were directly facing each other in the scan of their bladelock which happened after we see the clones dispatched.
2, I see
3. I suppose, Oppress is more powerful than koon(even disregarding season 3), but koon should be more skilled. DD ventress should be above both imo

1. Yeah, because Savage managed to turn back to Plo after the threat of the clones was over? Doesn't mean the distraction doesn't give Plo an inherent advantage in the fight that culminates in the leg cut.

1. It may have given him an intial advatage, but if even after adjusting(by turning around)oppress still gets his leg cut, then there's no reason to think koon needed the clones to cut oppress.

Whether he needed it or not, he had the advantage coming into the fight.

Sure.

Originally posted by SunRazer




Kento Marek's Force Ghost warns you beforehand that you will need all your skills to survive.

I might be misunderstanding here, so correct me if I'm wrong but, you seem to be suggesting that Kento Marek's warning is one of the reasons for your low placement of Galen's skill level which implies you believe he's at the level of an initiate taking their trials for knighthood. Did I hit the mark?

If that's the case, you understand why I'm having trouble grasping such a stance. Mostly for the reason that Galen already stalemated a Jedi master ( and a rather powerful one at that ) who had mastered multiple forms of lightsaber combat. A combatant who's skill are going to be far above that of an initiate taking their trials to become a Jedi Knight.

as for this battle
marek "all but perfected" lightsaber combat.
Oppress is a "reckless fighter".
Oppress<<<marek

Not to mention the power difference tbh.

Shaak ti controlled all the animals and plants of a planet, shaak has planetary level force power, she solo ragdolls this crap

I'd say you're trolling... but your comment history tells me no.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I might be misunderstanding here, so correct me if I'm wrong but, you seem to be suggesting that Kento Marek's warning is one of the reasons for your low placement of Galen's skill level which implies you believe he's at the level of an initiate taking their trials for knighthood. Did I hit the mark?

If that's the case, you understand why I'm having trouble grasping such a stance. Mostly for the reason that Galen already stalemated a Jedi master ( and a rather powerful one at that ) who had mastered multiple forms of lightsaber combat. A combatant who's skill are going to be far above that of an initiate taking their trials to become a Jedi Knight.

Well, I'd imagine that somebody who is literally one with the Force can ascertain the truth of any event, and he has no reason to lie.

I don't mean to say that Galen is padawan-tier, because obviously any figure of prodigious Force abilities, and especially one subjected to the rigour of training under Darth Vader (held back or otherwise) should be a remarkable fighter, but I'm finding the positive evidence on Galen's end rather thin.

Again, take the quote as you will, but Galen's track record in lightsaber fights is absolutely appalling. I'm simply cataloguing his performances in fights which simply aren't up to the standard that you'd expect, nor the standard that his accolades depict him at.

Kota himself was Galen's equal and he isn't exactly so hot either, with killing some beasts and being one-shotted by Boba his only feats. Where's the quote that he mastered Juyo? On his RT, the only evidence I found for him even knowing Juyo was a game mechanic. It would help if he at least had Juyo mastery under his belt.

I agree but if his statement doesn't match reality then it cannot be true.

But that IS what you're saying. And honestly Nova, that makes no sense. We KNOW he's mastered multiple forms and we KNOW he's stated to have great skill in lightsaber combat as a whole. You know his duel against Shaak Ti isn't as one sided as many would like to pretend. She pushed him at the beginning sure, but if you read the fight you can clearly see that Galen performed much better when he was given time to adjust to Shaak's use of the environment against him. Your other example was Maris, right? Galen muses how he should defeat her in front of Bail to keep up the facade of a Jedi Knight whilst having a philosophical debate with himself about the merits of the Dark and Lightside. She never stood a chance.

Can you give me some more examples because I think you might be allowing hearsay to taint your view tbh. And that's through no fault of your own. If you hear something repeated enough it tends to stick regardless of its merit.

It's from the campaign guide that lists his attributes. Are you dismissing that? Aside from that, are you suggesting that a Jedi Master who passed his trials decades prior is going to be inferior to an initiate taking these test in regards to technical skill?

Let's not forget that Vader straight up ragdolls Kota when the Jedi charges at him lmao.

I see you finished your post Syndicate...

Originally posted by samappo
Let's not forget that Vader straight up ragdolls Kota when the Jedi charges at him lmao.

Yes? Your point being?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I agree but if his statement doesn't match reality then it cannot be true.

We don't have any other indication of reality. I'm all for reasons to ignore Marek's claim, but as of yet, I haven't been presented with any. Is there a quote suggesting that he beat Desolous easily?



Hearsay from myself, it must be, because I'm the only one who's been arguing this.

You're misinterpreting me. I'm not using any one example to drop Galen to any specific level. My point is that he's sorely lacking evidence for being a fighter of the calibre that we like to think he is, or that his accolades suggest. I'm going through his fights and just not finding evidence putting him there.

In the context of this thread, I'm looking for reasons that Felucia Galen can beat Savage or Ventress. He can win through the Force, but I imagine he would fall to their blades beforehand.

My other example was the Shadow Guard that went back-and-forth with him.



Do you have a quote for his mastery of it? As I said, it's nice to have Juyo proficiency under your belt, since it automatically makes you one of the most skilled Force wielders and a high-level master of at least two other forms.

Again, no. Starkiller stalemated Kota and beat Desolous; we can assume that Kota's better than Desolous also.

where do people have dd ventress by the way? Her driving dooku back seems impressive(I'm unclear of any context here) saber wise. But being ragdolled by vos when both were amped who himself was thrown around force wise by an injured dooku indicates a vast force gap

Except quotes and Galen's actual performances... Even if he hadn't beat the program easily then that would be representative of the programs difficulty being above that of an initiate's capabilities to defeat for unknown reasons. The most likely reason for the statement however without outright dismissing it is that Kento's spirit was indicating it would not only be a test of Marek's skill but also his mental fortitude as these tests were supposed to not only ensure a Jedi's capabilities as a combatant but their willpower and spirit.

___________________________________

Well, then yes. Unfortunately that's what it is. I imagine that such a position is born from ignorance rather then malicious intent though. I'd like to think that anyways.

Can you give me a specific example because I think you may be lacking context for some of them.

And I'm curious as to why you believe that.

Which source are you referring to with the Shadow Guards? The comic or the novel?

___________________________________


To my knowledge, one doesn't need to master Juyo to have fulfilled the prerequisites for mastery of multiple forms. Only being able to control the form is necessary. Since Juyo is listed as a form both Rahm and Galen possess in their arsenal, I imagine they have a pretty solid control over the form, especially given Galen's other quotes regarding his skill by the beginning of TFU and Rahm's ability to match him.

___________________________________

"Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII." - Insider #62: Fightsaber.

"Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill." - Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

___________________________________

You're forgetting that Galen is growing in both power and skill throughout the game.

___________________________________

"The dark side rushed through him, made him strong and resilient. He felt more powerful than he ever had before." - The Force Unleashed.

"All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before." - The Force Unleashed

“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.” - The Force Unleashed.

"The apprentice nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa." - The Force Unleashed

I thought Galen's improvement would be quite clear given he was only able to stalemate Rahm at the beginning of the game, someone who Vader later ragdolled even though Galen was capable of defeating Vader by the end of game. But I imagine you have some sort of justification for Galen not having grown that much throughout the game.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I thought Galen's improvement would be quite clear given he was only able to stalemate Rahm at the beginning of the game, someone who Vader later ragdolled even though Galen was capable of beating Vader.

Well, obviously Galen improves. That's outright stated too. What did I say that made you think otherwise? Because I acknowledged it in this thread several times. However, this is just Felucia Galen.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Except quotes and Galen's actual performances... Even if he hadn't beat the program easily then that would be representative of the programs difficulty being above that of an initiate's capabilities to defeat for unknown reasons. The most likely reason for the statement however without outright dismissing it is that Kento's spirit was indicating it would not only be a test of Marek's skill but also his mental fortitude as these tests were supposed to not only ensure a Jedi's capabilities as a combatant but their willpower and spirit.

Possibly, though this was Galen's Trial of Skill as opposed to his Trial of Insight/Spirit (where he did have to use those things).



lol Ok then.



Specific example of what?



Better feats. They're about even with Plo (although given their rates of growth you could easily put their prime versions above him), who in turn is above CW era Shaak. TFU Shaak may have improved, but that'd require a separate case to be made since I don't believe it's stated outright and arguments for that tend to revolve around her beating Galen, which would be circular in this context. And Galen was noticeably inferior to her.

Although on reconsideration, I admit he's probably closer than I originally believed and that team 1 has a decent chance at a win.



The novel - the Raxus Prime fight.



I know that. That's what I said, though I can see why it may not have been clear. I was just curious if he did have a mastery over the form. Just being able to wield it is indicative of technical mastery on your part, but I was still curious as to whether he did master it.

didn't the comic have proxy hold its own vs vader?

Not sure. I imagine Vader seeing Obi-Wan all of a sudden like that would be somewhat jarring, although as far as I know most sources depict him beating PROXY rather comfortably (as he should).

]

You said "Again, no. Starkiller stalemated Kota and beat Desolous; we can assume that Kota's better than Desolous also."

That seems like you're indicating the only reason Rahm is above the program is because of this initial performance which is simply not the case. I'm aware that this is just Felucia Galen but he's still above where he was in both skill and power by that point then where he was at the start of the game.

]

Then as I said it's either referencing something else or possesses a difficulty level above what an initiate is capable of handling for unknown reasons. This is evident based on Galen's demonstrated capabilities by this point in the story.

One explanation is that it's difficulty was set to a maximum level by Sidious or one of his lackeys to catch unwary Jedi off guard. IIRC Jedi who's combat abilities were in question after a particularly traumatic or trying mission would be retested to make sure they still possessed an acceptable degree of combative effectiveness. Perhaps they were tested by a simulacrum placed on a higher difficulty level.

Of course, the above is just speculation, but I'm trying to give you a plausible reason if we're going off the basis that Kento's spirit was referring to the degree the simulacrum would test Galen's capabilities.

Another explanation is simply that it would test Galen to that degree after having fought through the Imperial garrison based in the temple on Coruscant.

]

Of the instances you think demonstrate Galen's lack of skill.

]

Can I get the quote for Ventress driving back Dooku? I would personally consider that a better skill feat as well though I don't agree that Savage's performance against Plo is better then Galen's against Shaak.

]

I'll look into it.

]

Nothing confirming it that I know of.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure. I imagine Vader seeing Obi-Wan all of a sudden like that would be somewhat jarring, although as far as I know most sources depict him beating PROXY rather comfortably (as he should).
Wouldn't know about the other sources but in the comic iirc proxy defnded vs several strikes form vader(who was clearly affected by seeing obi wan). If nothing else its a solid indication of strength. Certainly more challenging than what most initates/padawans face anyhow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure. I imagine Vader seeing Obi-Wan all of a sudden like that would be somewhat jarring, although as far as I know most sources depict him beating PROXY rather comfortably (as he should).

He manages to trade a few blows but like you said that's likely mostly due to his surprise at seeing his old master.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-afZrha7yPO4/VIxCWa2V6CI/AAAAAAAGcXI/cm49DZCtNWA/s1600/p1_99%2Bcopy.jpg

1. No, I meant that just proves that Kota's obviously above Desolous also. Nothing I said precludes Galen's improvements.

2. The idea of it being a higher level than normal is possible but I'm not sure if such higher levels would be implemented in a simulacrum designed to test padawans. In any case, this is all speculation and we don't need to go through this.

3. His entire catalogue of showings. He hasn't beaten anybody of note by virtue of skill. I suppose something can be made of his performance against Shaak, but even that fails to convince me that he could do anything other than stall Ventress or Savage.

4. Here:

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No, I meant that just proves that Kota's obviously above Desolous also. Nothing I said precludes Galen's improvements.

2. The idea of it being a higher level than normal is possible but I'm not sure if such higher levels would be implemented in a simulacrum designed to test padawans. In any case, this is all speculation and we don't need to go through this.

3. His entire catalogue of showings. He hasn't beaten anybody of note by virtue of skill. I suppose something can be made of his performance against Shaak, but even that fails to convince me that he could do anything other than stall Ventress or Savage.

4. Here:
Seems ventress was enraged(and we've seen in tcw canon how high being enraged/amped can boost her vs grevious and kenobi+anakin)

1. Fair enough.

2. Well, we can't assume canonical quotes are contradicted by performances we don't know the full context of. In general, a program designed to test initiates would not take all of Galen's skills to defeat given his past performances. At leas, if we're assessing him at his peak capabilities. It's why the second explanation I provided is the most likely.

3. He stalemated and even gained advantages over Vader and Shaak in lightsaber combat during certain portions of his duels with both opponents despite being at a distinct disadvantage in both encounters.

4. Thanks. It seems like Dooku purposely gave ground in an effort to get her to overextend, does it not?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Seems ventress was enraged(and we've seen in tcw canon how high being enraged/amped can boost her vs grevious and kenobi+anakin)

This too.

If she "forced him back" then I doubt its of dooku's own will

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
3. He stalemated and even gained advantages over Vader and Shaak in lightsaber combat during certain portions of his duels with both opponents despite being at a distinct disadvantage in both encounters.

The Shaak fight is pretty circumstantial but the sections that involved pure blade-to-blade combat had Galen getting pretty desperate. IIRC, some of his musings at the end of the fight in the novel suggest an admission of inferiority to her as well. Felucia was also a dark side nexus.

I discussed the Vader fight with Zoltan and Zapan and they each suggested that Vader was fighting recklessly/underestimating Galen in TFU, which, coupled with Galen's Dun Moch, proved the reason that Galen gained any advantage. They claimed that Vader could stomp Galen and cited the TFU II feat where he easily outduels the clone (who is said to possess the same fighting skills in The Ultimate Visual Guide). But you're better off asking them for a comprehensive case; this is off-topic enough given that it's Felucia Galen in this thread, not Galen by the end of TFU.



No, because it says Dooku was forced back, not that he gave ground. It's just that, being a Makashi master, he was able to recognize her overextending and took advantage of it immediately.

The fact that she was snarling doesn't mean she was enraged, lol. You'd have to ask someone else for the full context, but I've seen the feat used several times now without any mention of her getting enraged.

tfu 2 vader isn't tfu vader. Marek legitimately was fighting evenly with one, and his superior was getting dominated to hell by the other

Again, their argument revolved around the notion that Vader wasn't fighting anywhere near his best in TFU.

The comic backs that up force wise at least, no idea about the novel or cutscenes though

3. I'll go through the fight step by step.

Galen is knocked off balance by Shaak's initial offensive. This is partially due to Shaak assaulting him from a higher vantage point thus gaining greater momentum behind her initial strike.

"She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell. The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again." - The Force Unleashed.

Galen tries to deny her the advantage of height by avoiding her assault and jumping up to her level. She is again able to drive him back from her higher vantage point.

"Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all." - The Force Unleashed.

Galen sends a burst of Force lightning into the sarlaac to put Shaak off balance. The tactic is successful and he is able to go on the offensive.

"In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came." - The Force Unleashed.

Now that Galen is on equal footing with Shaak they go back and forth fighting seemingly evenly with Galen telekinetically throwing objects at her and Shaak sending the sarlaac's tentacles at him. I think it's quite clear that the latter would be a greater hindrance then the former but I'll leave that up to you to decide.

"The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on." - The Force Unleashed.

They continue to fight seemingly evenly as they make their way towards the lower levels.

"own they drove each other, closer and closer to the very lip of the creature's enormous mouth. The air was foul down there, heavy with digestive by-products and the stink of rotting meat. Ghastly exhalations rolled over them as the sarlacc roared on. The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to Sith lightning and random slashes of his lightsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous." - The Force Unleashed.

They have their conversation where Galen comments that she's running out of energy and Shaak admits that while Galen might be more powerful then her ( and logically be capable of outlasting her ) this is due to his own power and not his devotion to the Darkside. She ends their conversation with her final desperate assault which ends up costing her her life.

"You can't keep this up forever," he taunted Shaak Ti as they dueled.
"Neither can you," she said. "You are wasting your strength too quickly."
"The dark side is inexhaustible."
"Your strength is prodigious," she admitted, "but that is your doing. Light, dark..." She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet." He slashed at her own feet as they spun by overhead and sent one of her ribbons twirling down into the sarlacc's gaping mouth. "Spare me the philosophy lesson, Jedi," he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood."
"And you may yet have it, or I yours." On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue. She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss. He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time." - The Force Unleashed.

That's the full fight. Personally I think it's indicative of Shaak and Galen being relatively close as overall combatants by that point in the story ( especially if you take into account many of the external factors ) If you disagree with any of my interpretation I'd love to have a discussion about it.

4. Fair enough. While I believe it can be interpreted differently I don't find your stance unreasonable. In fact, just the opposite.

I highlighted my summary of events for ease of reading.

give that ti was made desperate, they're definitely near equals with a blade though I've heard that marek made use of the force when marek dealt the blow. There's also ti admitting it could go either way.

He blocked one of Shaak's blows with TK.

"The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin." - The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He blocked one of Shaak's blows with TK.

"The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin." - The Force Unleashed.
So ti is marginally more skilled

Fair enough on the vantage point, although it appears regardless that Shaak was noticeably faster and just a better duelist based on the early excerpts. The parts that follow involve too much Force abuse. It's fair to say that they were relatively close, though I still have Savage and Ventress above that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So ti is marginally more skilled

Well, she might be slightly better as an overall lightsaber combatant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Fair enough on the vantage point, although it appears regardless that Shaak was noticeably faster and just a better duelist based on the early excerpts. The parts that follow involve too much Force abuse. It's fair to say that they were relatively close, though I still have Savage and Ventress above that.

There's a few other factors to clear up. What's your stance on Felucia's status as a nexus and the energy Galen used up getting to Shaak?

Also, what's your position on Shaak being able to sway the Force alignment of Felucia. I feel we probably have differing views on that feat.

Is it not said to be a DS nexus (although apparently the comic goes out on a limb and calls it an LS nexus or something)?

From what I recall, Shaak is said to be a beacon of light in Felucia's darkness, which basically means she's a light sider on Felucia's DS nexus. But correct me if I'm wrong.

per the noveliztion her presence there was what was keeping felucia from being a darkside nexus which aligns with her being a beacon in the darkness

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is it not said to be a DS nexus (although apparently the comic goes out on a limb and calls it an LS nexus or something)?

From what I recall, Shaak is said to be a beacon of light in Felucia's darkness, which basically means she's a light sider on Felucia's DS nexus. But correct me if I'm wrong.

That's exactly what it says. However, she renders the planet practically neutral since she's beating back the DS nexus. So I doubt either she or Marek would've been amped.

her holding back a darkside nexus could be a hindrance/strain on her

I'd imagine she'd be fairly accustomed to it after more than a decade.

Wouldn't change her potentially improving in combative performance if she didn't have to divert some of her energy, even passively to the nexus.

Originally posted by MythLord
That's exactly what it says. However, she renders the planet practically neutral since she's beating back the DS nexus. So I doubt either she or Marek would've been amped. In which MythLord fills Nova's head with lies.

The planet is nowhere stated to be a DS nexus, it is however, stated that the light side "held sway" and that the dark side had be "stifled" - this is exceptionally easy to work out.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wouldn't change her potentially improving in combative performance if she didn't have to divert some of her energy, even passively to the nexus. http://i.imgur.com/sKC9ND9.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In which MythLord fills Nova's head with lies.

The planet is nowhere stated to be a DS nexus, it is however, stated that the light side "held sway" and that the dark side had be "stifled" - this is exceptionally easy to work out.

Riiiight...

"Kota leaned closer. 'Don't be overconfident, boy. Felucia is a world finely balanced between the light and dark sides of the Force. Shaak Ti was the only thing keeping it from being consumed by darkness. If anything's happened to her, your experience in the hut will seem like a bad dream in comparison.'"

-- TFU novelisation

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5062822-0000924783-48712.png

^"The Dark Side was strong on Felucia and Shaak Ti was a beacon in that darkness."

Felucia is a world balanced between Light and Dark, but that balance was only achieved through Shaak Ti's influence over it, otherwise the Dark Side would've consumed it.

And yet:
But naturally, we should ignore Marek's first hand impression of the planet in favour of Kota's far more limited perspective? Riiiiight?

Face it, Kota's appraisal is either inaccurate or he's referring to the contested nature of the planet's alignment in general. And though Felucia is indeed strong in the dark side compared to other worlds, that doesn't mean the darkness was at all dominant. It wasn't.

Yeah, that just confirms that Shaak Ti threw the planet out of whack. It doesn't mean the planet wasn't strong in the Dark Side prior to Shaak's arrival, especially when the comic confirms it as such.

That's not what we are debating?

The point is that thanks to Shaak Ti's presence, the light side became the dominant side of the Force on Felucia.

I'm debating that the planet is(or rather was) strong in the Dark Side, but Shaak changed that. But since it's her presence that made it an LS nexus to begin with, she wouldn't really have been amped.

More nonsense.

As I recall, Plagueis & Sidious benefitted from the DS nexus that they brought about upon the galaxy, as did Sidious from Byss, and Vitiate from Dromund Kaas, despite them being of their own creation. I suppose the Force just works differently for Shaak. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I recall, Plagueis & Sidious benefitted from the DS nexus that they brought about upon the galaxy,

Only in the sense that they clouded the Jedi's visions/precognition. I don't really remember them getting any form of amp from it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
as did Sidious from Byss,

Because he wasn't the only one creating the nexus, darling. His acolytes were there to continuously strengthen it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
and Vitiate from Dromund Kaas,

He did it through a ritual, not through his mere presence or power like Shaak. Ti, for all intents and purposes, is the Light Side nexus on Felucia that off-balanced the world's natural flow.

Originally posted by MythLord
Only in the sense that they clouded the Jedi's visions/precognition. I don't really remember them getting any form of amp from it.Darth Plagueis notes how they became stronger in the Force because of it extensively. Twice on Palpatine's count.

Peripheral lackies have no bearing on the power of Palpatine, enough with the lies and conjecture. uhuh

Right, this is where your missing the point. The point is that these individuals were able to benefit from these nexuses because they were independent of their own power. Felucia is no different, and claiming that Ti is the nexus is total BS. Felucia is a planet saturated in the Force, and would remain so with or without her being there, all she did was change the nature of it's alignment, which would allow her to draw upon it.