Rank These Characters Based On Strength

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TethAdamTheRock
Predator
Loki
Luke Cage
Spiderman
Captain America
Bane
Engineer (Prometheus)
Batman (Batman Vs Superman)
Olympics Bench Presser

relentless1
Loki
Spider Man
Cap
Luke Cage
Predator
Engineer
Batman
Bane
Olympic Bench Presser

tkitna
Originally posted by relentless1
Loki
Spider Man
Cap
Luke Cage
Predator
Engineer
Batman
Bane
Olympic Bench Presser

Looks about right

TheVaultDweller
A lot of people might swap Cap and Cage. Cap has higher budget, fancier looking feats, but Cage's feats are no joke, even with his series not having movie level effects, like consistently and casually bending guns in half, stopping the speeding SUV, smashing over that gallery support pillar while injured, picking up and tossing around huge pieces of concrete, and making a steel dumpster start to completely cave in on itself just by pressing on it. That last one actually requires a ridiculous level of strength. But they are both in the same overall ballpark/strength class, so guess it doesn't matter much which you put first.

But that list looks solid overall.

Robtard
Spider-Man (Any of the three)
Loki
Luke Cage
Cap
Predator (Amalgam)
Engineer
Batman (BvS)
Bane
Olympic Bench Presser

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by Robtard
Spider-Man (Any of the three)
Loki
Luke Cage
Cap
Predator (Amalgam)
Engineer
Batman (BvS)
Bane
Olympic Bench Presser

Yeah, I was thinking Spiderman should be on top, after making my post. Loki's physical strength feats are limited to blocking blows from a holding back Thor, and tossing Cap around. He's somewhat lacking in that department.

Even Garfield Spiderman, who arguably has the lowest strength levels of the three, is strong enough to catch a falling SUV with one hand, and stop a bus from tipping over after it got rammed by a truck.

FrothByte
Pretty sure Loki's implied strength is greater than Spiderman's, but he is lacking in feats.

I mean, can you imagine Spidey casually crumpling a tactical knife in his hand or casually pushing aside a van (or was it an SUV) with one hand?

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
Pretty sure Loki's implied strength is greater than Spiderman's, but he is lacking in feats.

I mean, can you imagine Spidey casually crumpling a tactical knife in his hand or casually pushing aside a van (or was it an SUV) with one hand?

I could see him pushing a large vehicle with one hand. Like I said, even Garfield Spidey could actually catch a falling SUV with a single hand (he did so during the bridge scene in ASM1). The tactical knife is a different story. He should have the strength for it, but he doesn't have Asgardian level piercing durability, so he'd cut himself in the process.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I could see him pushing a large vehicle with one hand. Like I said, even Garfield Spidey could actually catch a falling SUV with a single hand (he did so during the bridge scene in ASM1). The tactical knife is a different story. He should have the strength for it, but he doesn't have Asgardian level piercing durability, so he'd cut himself in the process.

Maybe "pushing" was the wrong term. Shoving a vehicle about a dozen meters or more with a casual push is more what I was thinking.

My problem with Spiderman (and to be honest with most heroes) is that their strength seems to increase when they are pulling on some form of rope or cable. And Spiderman seems to have very high end strength feats while using his webbing but I don't see it translate without webbing.

For example, I don't see him one-hand military pressing a car over his head. Then again, I don't see Loki doing that either.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
Maybe "pushing" was the wrong term. Shoving a vehicle about a dozen meters or more with a casual push is more what I was thinking.

My problem with Spiderman (and to be honest with most heroes) is that their strength seems to increase when they are pulling on some form of rope or cable. And Spiderman seems to have very high end strength feats while using his webbing but I don't see it translate without webbing.

For example, I don't see him one-hand military pressing a car over his head. Then again, I don't see Loki doing that either.

He didn't use his webbing to catch the SUV though. The vehicle actually broke from his webbing, after it got set on fire, so he caught it with his fingers. He only used webbing with his other hand, to re-establish a connection to the bridge.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Robtard
Spider-Man (Any of the three)
Loki
Luke Cage
Cap
Predator (Amalgam)
Engineer
Batman (BvS)
Bane
Olympic Bench Presser Agreed except for Predator and Engineer. I'd switch those two

Robtard
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed except for Predator and Engineer. I'd switch those two

Think the Predator is stronger with showings. But you could be correct.

John Murdoch
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Predator
Loki
Luke Cage
Spiderman
Captain America
Bane
Engineer (Prometheus)
Batman (Batman Vs Superman)
Olympics Bench Presser

Swap powerlifter for Olympics, as there is no bench pressing in the Olympics >insert smug face here<

Jk, Teth.

I'd say:

1. Loki
2. Spider-Man
3. Captain America/Luke Cage
4. Luke Cage/Captain America
5. Predator
6. Engineer
7. Batman from Batman v Superman
8. Bane
9. Bench Presser

John Murdoch
Sorry, swap Loki and Spider-Man

TethAdamTheRock
My list

Loki
Luke Cage (High end)
Spiderman
Captain America
Luke Cage
Batman
Bane
Olympic Presser

h1a8
Why is Batman from BvS stronger than Bane? What are his strength feats?

h1a8
1. Spidey
2. Loki
3. Cage
4. Predator
5. Engineer
6. Cap
7. Bane
8. Batman BvS
9. Olympic

3,4 and 5 could be switched around. Cage durability is a factor of his hitting power. If Preds had his durability then I'll probably rank them higher.

TethAdamTheRock
Originally posted by h1a8
Why is Batman from BvS stronger than Bane? What are his strength feats? He slammed superman through some walls and pillars

h1a8
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
He slammed superman through some walls and pillars

He had a mechanical suit

FrothByte
I think it needs to be clarified how exactly we're gauging strength here. Is it a lifting competition or a striking competition?

The Sorrow
Spider-Man stronger than Loki? Wtf? You think Spider-Man can have a competitive h2h fight with Thor? Same Spider-Man who was owned by Captain America, same Cap who looked like a child against Loki? Makes sense.

Luke and Loki ARE stronger than Cap. Strength feats aren't the only criteria to gauge a persons strength.

TheVaultDweller
The fights between Cap/Loki and Cap/Spidey aren't really a good representation of strength. Loki is much more durable than Spiderman is, and literally has nearly a thousand years more experience than he does. Also, Cap has had a notable power creep in between the first Avengers movie and Civil War.

TethAdamTheRock
didnt luke stop a truck or something, luke is definitely more durable than spiderman

FrothByte
Wait, are we debating strength AND durability or just pure strength?

TethAdamTheRock
strength

FrothByte
Then Cage stopping an SUV in it's tracks is not more impressive than Spidey catching a car (minivan) and tossing it aside.

Robtard
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Spider-Man stronger than Loki? Wtf? You think Spider-Man can have a competitive h2h fight with Thor? Same Spider-Man who was owned by Captain America, same Cap who looked like a child against Loki? Makes sense.

Luke and Loki ARE stronger than Cap. Strength feats aren't the only criteria to gauge a persons strength.

Cap didn't beat SM due to strength, he outsmarted him. Bucky's bionic arm is stronger than Cap, yet SM casually handled Bucky's arm as if it were a toy, remember the line/scene "You have a metal arm?"

TethAdamTheRock
He used his weight to pull spiderman, fight was PIS

Robtard
Nah, both were not trying to kill each other, cos all good guys and Capt is ridiculously more experienced than Spider-Man who prior to a few months (at the time of the fight) was just a high school nerd.

relentless1
Originally posted by h1a8
Why is Batman from BvS stronger than Bane? What are his strength feats?

throwing a huge crate one handed, punching a guy across the room, chokeslamming a guy like he was a feather., exploding through a wall.. basically that entire warehouse fight shits on banes strength feats

Robtard
^
this

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
Why is Batman from BvS stronger than Bane? What are his strength feats?

Because Bane has crappy strength feats.

Surtur
Originally posted by FrothByte
Maybe "pushing" was the wrong term. Shoving a vehicle about a dozen meters or more with a casual push is more what I was thinking.

My problem with Spiderman (and to be honest with most heroes) is that their strength seems to increase when they are pulling on some form of rope or cable. And Spiderman seems to have very high end strength feats while using his webbing but I don't see it translate without webbing.

For example, I don't see him one-hand military pressing a car over his head. Then again, I don't see Loki doing that either.

I usually think of Rami Spider-Man, and speaking of cables he does have that feat of holding that falling cable car full of people with just one arm. He also holds up a rather large section of wall in Spider-Man 2 at the end without any webbing usage, and seems to strain, but then tosses it back pretty far.

But then I'm guessing this is probably meant to be a more recent version of Spidey.

Robtard
New Spider-Man could lift a car over his head, considering so far he's caught a fast moving airborne vehicle and supported the jet-bridge over his head.

playa1258
Cap against Spider-man was PIS.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The fights between Cap/Loki and Cap/Spidey aren't really a good representation of strength. Loki is much more durable than Spiderman is, and literally has nearly a thousand years more experience than he does. Also, Cap has had a notable power creep in between the first Avengers movie and Civil War.
It's a perfect representation of strength bar a straight up arm wrestle, Loki undoubtedly came across as stronger. Can Spider-Man fight Thor toe to toe like Loki can? If the answer is no then how can Peter be stronger than Loki?

Look Cap came across as an ant to Loki and iirc was floored in one hit. No one has treated Cap like that, Spider-Man certainly didn't. Neither is Cap casually walking through concrete walls, or bending machine guns like clay ala Cage.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by Robtard
Cap didn't beat SM due to strength, he outsmarted him. Bucky's bionic arm is stronger than Cap, yet SM casually handled Bucky's arm as if it were a toy, remember the line/scene "You have a metal arm?"
He was webbed up while Spider-Man was holding him and still managed to force Spidey off his feet, sure he put his body into it but that came across as a scene that depicted them as near equals. Other people who I saw the film with thought the same thing.

Sure and that was impressive on Spider-Man's part but Bucky clearly wasn't going all out in that scene.

TheVaultDweller
"Near equals"? What? So, you think Cap is comparable to a guy who can catch a falling jet bridge, an object that weighs over 20 tons, and was under gravitational acceleration when he caught it? When he pulled Spidey off his feet he used his bodyweight, and threw Spiderman off balance. Doesn't matter how strong you are if you don't have proper footing. Also, chances are that if Spiderman had hit Cap all-out, he could have floored him in one shot. But that was not his role, plus he is still lacking in experience at fighting superhumans, so likely doesn't know how much power to put into his punches to KO someone without killing them. Like how Jessica Jones can kill a regular person if she hits them full strength, but often has to resort to multiple strikes to KO someone while she is holding back.

And again, this is ignoring the blatant power creep Cap has had across the films. He literally went from struggling to bend a piece of railing in CA:TFA to out-muscling a helicopter in CA:CW.

Also, everything is not about strength. Spiderman lacks the durability or experience to hang with Thor. But you are basically ignoring the fact that skill, experience and durability play a huge part in a fight as well, and can have a drastic effect on the result.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
"Near equals"? What? So, you think Cap is comparable to a guy who can catch a falling jet bridge, an object that weighs over 20 tons, and was under gravitational acceleration when he caught it? When he pulled Spidey off his feet he used his bodyweight, and threw Spiderman off balance. Doesn't matter how strong you are if you don't have proper footing. Also, chances are that if Spiderman had hit Cap all-out, he could have floored him in one shot. But that was not his role, plus he is still lacking in experience at fighting superhumans, so likely doesn't know how much power to put into his punches to KO someone without killing them. Like how Jessica Jones can kill a regular person if she hits them full strength, but often has to resort to multiple strikes to KO someone while she is holding back.

And again, this is ignoring the blatant power creep Cap has had across the films. He literally went from struggling to bend a piece of railing in CA:TFA to out-muscling a helicopter in CA:CW.

Also, everything is not about strength. Spiderman lacks the durability or experience to hang with Thor. But you are basically ignoring the fact that skill, experience and durability play a huge part in a fight as well, and can have a drastic effect on the result.
If you want to argue that Spidey jobbed to Cap then fine, I'm in agreement with that but Spider-Man was really trying to hold Cap in place who essentially powered out of it. If Spider-Man is that much stronger than Cap it should've been irrelevant what Cap did with his body surely.

Sure you could argue he's had a power creep or you could argue he simply has more feats. He doesn't look noticeably stronger than in WS imo but didn't that film have the same creative team as Civil War working on it? Correct me if im wrong. Power creep is something all major characters go through, Cap isn't unique in that regard. His improved feats still aren't anything above fighting Thor h2h and being able to hurt him, plus what combat skill has Loki really got though besides using some weapons. Cap even came across as having more skill than Loki in their fight however when you're outmatched it's obvious, and that was the case there. Durability alone isn't going to stop you being kicked to the ground or knocked off your feet but super strong beings can resist through sheer force.

Cap was kicking regular men like a dozen metres in some parts yet a jumping spin kick on Loki just about made him take a step back, that's not purely down to durability.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by The Sorrow
If you want to argue that Spidey jobbed to Cap then fine, I'm in agreement with that but Spider-Man was really trying to hold Cap in place who essentially powered out of it. If Spider-Man is that much stronger than Cap it should've been irrelevant what Cap did with his body surely.

Sure you could argue he's had a power creep or you could argue he simply has more feats. He doesn't look noticeably stronger than in WS imo but didn't that film have the same creative team as Civil War working on it? Correct me if im wrong. Power creep is something all major characters go through, Cap isn't unique in that regard. His improved feats still aren't anything above fighting Thor h2h and being able to hurt him, plus what combat skill has Loki really got though besides using some weapons. Cap even came across as having more skill than Loki in their fight however when you're outmatched it's obvious, and that was the case there. Durability alone isn't going to stop you being kicked to the ground or knocked off your feet but super strong beings can resist through sheer force.

Cap was kicking regular men like a dozen metres in some parts yet a jumping spin kick on Loki just about made him take a step back, that's not purely down to durability.

Well, first of all, I do think Spidey jobbed, because it was a Cap movie. Same way Iron Man came across as much weaker than before so that Cap could win in the end there as well. And he didn't simply power out of it. He pulled his arms down, which changed the angle, throwing off Spidey's equilibrium, and then spun his entire body to pull him forward. Remember, Cap also has a mass advantage over Spiderman. Even if we high-ball Cap's best strength feat he is still at least 3 times weaker than Spiderman is, based on the jet bridge catch. And those feats are not influenced by combat skill, experience etc. It's pure muscle. But some people chalk it up to the "Russo-force" because, realistically, things like the helicopter feat are actually impossible. No matter how strong Cap is, he is still only like 220lbs. Which means the helicopter should just have taken off with him hanging from it, seeing as he had nothing to brace his feet against initially. Or for that matter, the bolts of the railing he eventually grabbed should actually have torn out of the concrete.

The major jump for Cap occurred when the Russos took over for TWS, which was maintained in AoU (because they can't exactly power him down again), and then further amped when the Russos did Civil War. But they had no influence in TFA or the Avengers, which are the films we are comparing him to. Also, his own actual skill level has increased since Avengers. This is pretty clearly visible when he fights.

Loki has proven his combat skill multiple times as well, against Frost Giants, Dark Elves, and Thor himself (who he always fought with weapons, not purely H2H). Or do you think he managed to fight Thor based purely on strength levels? Also, why are you bringing up regular humans? They aren't as strong as Spiderman either, who Cap only ever sent flying when he was either off balance, or airborne, so unable to brace himself, whereas Loki had firm footing when Cap kicked him.

IMO, if you give MCU Spiderman Asgardian level durability, and a lot more XP, I could see him giving Thor a decent tussle, assuming Thor holds back to the same degree that he did against Loki.

h1a8
Originally posted by relentless1
throwing a huge crate one handed, punching a guy across the room, chokeslamming a guy like he was a feather., exploding through a wall.. basically that entire warehouse fight shits on banes strength feats

Bane busting through solid marble (concrete) is beyond anything Batman did.

FrothByte
Originally posted by h1a8
Bane busting through solid marble (concrete) is beyond anything Batman did.

Except he never bust through any solid marble or concrete.

h1a8
Originally posted by The Sorrow
If you want to argue that Spidey jobbed to Cap then fine, I'm in agreement with that but Spider-Man was really trying to hold Cap in place who essentially powered out of it. If Spider-Man is that much stronger than Cap it should've been irrelevant what Cap did with his body surely.

Sure you could argue he's had a power creep or you could argue he simply has more feats. He doesn't look noticeably stronger than in WS imo but didn't that film have the same creative team as Civil War working on it? Correct me if im wrong. Power creep is something all major characters go through, Cap isn't unique in that regard. His improved feats still aren't anything above fighting Thor h2h and being able to hurt him, plus what combat skill has Loki really got though besides using some weapons. Cap even came across as having more skill than Loki in their fight however when you're outmatched it's obvious, and that was the case there. Durability alone isn't going to stop you being kicked to the ground or knocked off your feet but super strong beings can resist through sheer force.

Cap was kicking regular men like a dozen metres in some parts yet a jumping spin kick on Loki just about made him take a step back, that's not purely down to durability.

But that all is contradicted by the fact that Spidey casually caught and held WS arm. WS arm is stronger than Cap easily. This implies that Cap's strength is casual to Spidey. So the feat you refer to is either PIS (not usable in forum rules) or it is misunderstood (other factors besides strength was going on).

h1a8
Originally posted by FrothByte
Except he never bust through any solid marble or concrete.

Correct. It was solid limestone rock. Each pillar weighs 62 tons.

TethAdamTheRock
Except that batman did to

h1a8
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Except that batman did to

Except that he didn't.

FrothByte
Originally posted by h1a8
Correct. It was solid limestone rock. Each pillar weighs 62 tons.

Except when you actually pay attention to the scene, you can clearly see that it wasn't solid at all.

h1a8
Originally posted by FrothByte
Except when you actually pay attention to the scene, you can clearly see that it wasn't solid at all.

It was. I have the exact location the scene happened at. I researched the exact material the pillars are made out of and each one's weight. The intentions was for Bane to bust through the pillars outside the Carnegie Mellon Institute. Bane (being an actor) can't do such things in reality. That's why they created fake prop material for him to bust through. We don't judge feats off the actual material but the intended material. Otherwise, everyone's feats are worthless.

FrothByte
Originally posted by h1a8
It was. I have the exact location the scene happened at. I researched the exact material the pillars are made out of and each one's weight. The intentions was for Bane to bust through the pillars outside the Carnegie Mellon Institute. Bane (being an actor) can't do such things in reality. That's why they created fake prop material for him to bust through. We don't judge feats off the actual material but the intended material. Otherwise, everyone's feats are worthless.

Sebastian Stan, the actor for Winter Soldier, also didn't punch and crack real concrete. Yet what we see in the movie is him cracking something that looks like concrete and reacts like concrete.

In comparison, Bane punched a pillar that does not look or react like solid concrete or marble, which implies that it was never meant to be portrayed as solid concrete or marble.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
Correct. It was solid limestone rock. Each pillar weighs 62 tons.

Prove it.

h1a8
Originally posted by FrothByte
Sebastian Stan, the actor for Winter Soldier, also didn't punch and crack real concrete. Yet what we see in the movie is him cracking something that looks like concrete and reacts like concrete.

In comparison, Bane punched a pillar that does not look or react like solid concrete or marble, which implies that it was never meant to be portrayed as solid concrete or marble. We don't judge material by going by the way things look but the intention of their makeup. The feat happened at a REAL LANDMARK which I gave. The pillars are known to be made of limestone weighing at 62 tons each. Bane was shown to punch and bust one of these pillars. The intentions are clear. The lack of skill of special effects doesn't change that fact. Otherwise, I can discredit ANY feat just because it didn't look real enough and troll and ignore the common sense intentions.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
We don't judge material by going by the way things look but the intention of their makeup. The feat happened at a REAL LANDMARK which I gave. The pillars are known to be made of limestone weighing at 62 tons each. Bane was shown to punch and bust one of these pillars. The intentions are clear. The lack of skill of special effects doesn't change that fact. Otherwise, I can discredit ANY feat just because it didn't look real enough and troll and ignore the common sense intentions.

Gotham city doesn't exist, so what real landmark are you talking about?

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Gotham city doesn't exist, so what real landmark are you talking about? They used a real landmark for the scene. The Carnegie Mellon Institute. That's where they shot the scene.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
They used a real landmark for the scene. The Carnegie Mellon Institute. That's where they shot the scene.

The Carnegie Mellon Institute is in Pittsburgh, The Bane scene happened in Gotham.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
The Carnegie Mellon Institute is in Pittsburgh, The Bane scene happened in Gotham. True! Good job!

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
True! Good job!

So what is your proof that the column Bane hit was made of limestone?

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
So what is your proof that the column Bane hit was made of limestone? The pillars of Carnegie Mellon Institute are made of limestone.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
The pillars of Carnegie Mellon Institute are made of limestone.

Bane didn't hit the pillars of Carnegie Mellon Institute.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Bane didn't hit the pillars of Carnegie Mellon Institute.

He was intended to.
The same as WS didn't hit and bust real concrete.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
He was intended to.
The same as WS didn't hit and bust real concrete.

No, he was intended to hit a pillar on a building in Gotham, which is what the movie actually shows. so what proof do you have that the pillar in Gotham was made of Limestone.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
No, he was intended to hit a pillar on a building in Gotham, which is what the movie actually shows. so what proof do you have that the pillar in Gotham was made of Limestone.

The pillars were actually made of limestone since they used the landmark as a basis for the feat.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
The pillars were actually made of limestone since they used the landmark as a basis for the feat.

If you want to bring RL into in, then what the movie people actually used was drywall and/or plaster.

So let's try this again, what proof do you have that the pillars that Bane hit were limestone.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
If you want to bring RL into in, then what the movie people actually used was drywall and/or plaster.

So let's try this again, what proof do you have that the pillars that Bane hit were limestone.

The pillars were intended to be the same pillars from Carnegie Mellon Institute. Just as WS was intended to break real concrete (instead of prop material).

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
The pillars were intended to be the same pillars from Carnegie Mellon Institute. Just as WS was intended to break real concrete (instead of prop material).

So you have no proof, this is all just your speculation.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
So you have no proof, this is all just your speculation.

It's common sense that Bane was intended to bust through solid rock pillars. Any argument against it is trolling really. confused

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
It's common sense that Bane was intended to bust through solid rock pillars. Any argument against it is trolling really. confused

IOW, you have no proof and are basing your argument on what you feel should be true.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
IOW, you have no proof and are basing your argument on what you feel should be true.

Common sense doesn't require proof; trolling says it does.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Robtard
Think the Predator is stronger with showings. But you could be correct. Didn't the Engineer tear the android's head off with casual ease? IIRC androids in Alien have superhuman strength and durability. By contrast, a Predator was "merely" capable of knocking around Arnie in a physical confrontation. Maybe they do some crazy shit in one of the shitty movies I haven't seen though.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
Common sense doesn't require proof; trolling says it does.

Common sense is that if the pillar shown in the movie reacts like a decorative column, then it's a decorative column.

NemeBro
Originally posted by relentless1
throwing a huge crate one handed

Done using his grappling hook, not with his strength. He weighed more than the crate so he let it toss him for him.



Don't think it was too outside the realm of possibility, nor above Bane's one-handed lifting of Batman or his breaking of the mask.



Think that was a vertical suplex chokeslam, which is well-within the realms of possibility, and not nearly as impressive as Bane keeping Batman in the air with one hand on his neck. No human being can manage that IRL.



That wall was made of like quarter inch drywall lol.

Honestly? Not really. I just watched the entire fight, and nothing there really puts him solidly above Bane. No feat is better than lifting a 200+ pound armoured man and holding him up there while walking with him, using a single hand on his neck. Nor does he break something as durable as, say, Batman's mask, by punching it.

playa1258
Engineers were shown to be stronger in a comic when a Pred ambushed one.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, first of all, I do think Spidey jobbed, because it was a Cap movie. Same way Iron Man came across as much weaker than before so that Cap could win in the end there as well. And he didn't simply power out of it. He pulled his arms down, which changed the angle, throwing off Spidey's equilibrium, and then spun his entire body to pull him forward. Remember, Cap also has a mass advantage over Spiderman. Even if we high-ball Cap's best strength feat he is still at least 3 times weaker than Spiderman is, based on the jet bridge catch. And those feats are not influenced by combat skill, experience etc. It's pure muscle. But some people chalk it up to the "Russo-force" because, realistically, things like the helicopter feat are actually impossible. No matter how strong Cap is, he is still only like 220lbs. Which means the helicopter should just have taken off with him hanging from it, seeing as he had nothing to brace his feet against initially. Or for that matter, the bolts of the railing he eventually grabbed should actually have torn out of the concrete.

The major jump for Cap occurred when the Russos took over for TWS, which was maintained in AoU (because they can't exactly power him down again), and then further amped when the Russos did Civil War. But they had no influence in TFA or the Avengers, which are the films we are comparing him to. Also, his own actual skill level has increased since Avengers. This is pretty clearly visible when he fights.

Loki has proven his combat skill multiple times as well, against Frost Giants, Dark Elves, and Thor himself (who he always fought with weapons, not purely H2H). Or do you think he managed to fight Thor based purely on strength levels? Also, why are you bringing up regular humans? They aren't as strong as Spiderman either, who Cap only ever sent flying when he was either off balance, or airborne, so unable to brace himself, whereas Loki had firm footing when Cap kicked him.

IMO, if you give MCU Spiderman Asgardian level durability, and a lot more XP, I could see him giving Thor a decent tussle, assuming Thor holds back to the same degree that he did against Loki.
Then you have an extremely high view of Spider-Man. He fought no heavy hitters, and the heavy (ish) hitter in the film (Cap) treated him like a weak feeb who was given similar treatment by Loki, if you honestly believe Spider-Man with added durability can punch Thor hard enough to floor him, or throw Thor around with one arm we must have watched a different Civil War. Spider-Man couldn't even overpower plucking Captain America yet he's stronger than a rival of Thor. Makes sense.

Peter got kicked over by Falcon for gods sake while a jumping spin kick full force from Cap pushed Loki back one step. That's not just higher durability that's a full tier (at least) above. His only saving grace was holding up that walkway, which tbh I would be very surprised if he couldn't, Cap could likely hold up the same structure temporarily who we know is (significantly) physically weaker than Loki.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Then you have an extremely high view of Spider-Man. He fought no heavy hitters, and the heavy (ish) hitter in the film (Cap) treated him like a weak feeb who was given similar treatment by Loki, if you honestly believe Spider-Man with added durability can punch Thor hard enough to floor him, or throw Thor around with one arm we must have watched a different Civil War. Spider-Man couldn't even overpower plucking Captain America yet he's stronger than a rival of Thor. Makes sense.

Peter got kicked over by Falcon for gods sake while a jumping spin kick full force from Cap pushed Loki back one step. That's not just higher durability that's a full tier (at least) above. His only saving grace was holding up that walkway, which tbh I would be very surprised if he couldn't, Cap could likely hold up the same structure temporarily who we know is (significantly) physically weaker than Loki.

I was going to write out a long reply to this, but then I saw the last sentence. You very clearly have no idea how much strength would be required to catch that jet bridge if you think Cap could replicate the feat. He is nowhere near strong enough to do it.

TheVaultDweller
9ntIUhXW7Jg

Cap is not that strong.

The Sorrow
With his shield? I don't see why he couldn't briefly in a "holy shit" kind of moment, hell it's not as if Spidey could've held up that weight indefinitely he was struggling. Cap damn near pulled down a helicopter with one arm, we didn't know he was capable of feats of that level until we saw him do it. Spider-Man couldn't overpower Cap which is more important than any feats, they're clearly comparable and that's how they were portrayed in the film. I get Peter was possibly intended to come off as stronger but a significant gap like you are saying just wasn't evident.

More importantly do you think Loki couldn't replicate this feat or something? Would be pretty weak sauce for someone of his stature, he's got Frost Giant strength let's not forget that.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by The Sorrow
With his shield? I don't see why he couldn't briefly in a "holy shit" kind of moment, hell it's not as if Spidey could've held up that weight indefinitely he was struggling. Cap damn near pulled down a helicopter with one arm, we didn't know he was capable of feats of that level until we saw him do it. Spider-Man couldn't overpower Cap which is more important than any feats, they're clearly comparable and that's how they were portrayed in the film. I get Peter was possibly intended to come off as stronger but a significant gap like you are saying just wasn't evident.

More importantly do you think Loki couldn't replicate this feat or something? Would be pretty weak sauce for someone of his stature, he's got Frost Giant strength let's not forget that.

It's not only about holding the weight. Catching it is the impressive part, considering the impact force. The helicopter is nowhere near the jet bridge catch. It's not even in the same league. A helicopter like that has a maximum lift of about 3000lbs. The jet bridge, even ignoring the fact that it was falling, is 81,000lbs. And that's not even considering him casually catching a metal arm haymaker from Bucky, an arm which has overpowered Cap on multiple occasions (including CA:CW). The strength gap is very evident, as the helicopter curl and the jet bridge happened in the same movie. The fact that you are suggesting that pure feats of strength, which don't rely on other factors, are less important than a scenario where more than strength (such as technique, body mass and leverage) factored into the showing, to suggest that they are comparable, says it all.

To me, and pretty much everyone I have spoken to other than you, it was portrayed that Spiderman definitely outclassed Steve physically, but Steve managed to get the better of him via experience, as well as use of the terrain. And even then, many of those people still consider the fight as PIS.

TheVaultDweller
Okay, I f***** the jet bridge weight. It's more like 60,000lbs. But that's still about 20 times greater than the maximum lift of the helicopter used in CA:CW (an AS350 Airbus). And, again, that's ignoring the distance it actually fell, which would have increased the amount of force Spiderman would have had to counter to successfully catch it.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Spider-Man stronger than Loki? Wtf? You think Spider-Man can have a competitive h2h fight with Thor? Same Spider-Man who was owned by Captain America, same Cap who looked like a child against Loki? Makes sense.

Luke and Loki ARE stronger than Cap. Strength feats aren't the only criteria to gauge a persons strength.


I agree with Sorrow's logic here. Powerscaling is important sometimes. Loki's fight against Cap does imply his strength to be far beyond Cap's.

And the difference seems a lot larger than the difference between Cap and Spidey.

And sure Thor holds back against Loki, but their fights were still pretty serious, so it's not like Thor was just playing around with him.

For that matter how do we even gauge Thor's tremendous strength? Because he doesn't have much in terms of lifting feats, or catching/chucking huge vehicles. But him going toe to toe against Hulk tells us a lot right away.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I agree with Sorrow's logic here. Powerscaling is important sometimes. Loki's fight against Cap does imply his strength to be far beyond Cap's.

And the difference seems a lot larger than the difference between Cap and Spidey.

And sure Thor holds back against Loki, but their fights were still pretty serious, so it's not like Thor was just playing around with him.

For that matter how do we even gauge Thor's tremendous strength? Because he doesn't have much in terms of lifting feats, or catching/chucking huge vehicles. But him going toe to toe against Hulk tells us a lot right away.

To a degree powercaling can be factored in. But, again, Cap's strength and skill feats only really picked up from TWS and onwards, after his fight with Loki. Up until then, the majority of his feats involved tossing humans around, which Loki and Spiderman can easily do as well. As I pointed out, Cap struggled to bend a metal railing in TFA, using both arms. Someone who can curl a helicopter should have been able to do that easily, one-handed.

Also, things like the jet bridge completely crap on things like the helicopter. And Cap got overwhelmed by Winter Soldier's metal arm alone, despite having his legs braced and pushing back with both arms, in CW. The same arm Spiderman casually caught and overpowered. Which, again, is why I maintain their fight was massive PIS. Based on all the other feats we have available, Spiderman is significantly stronger than Cap is. Their fight is inconsistent with multiple other strength showings.

Also, again, Loki is much more durable than Spiderman, and a much more experienced fighter. Remove Loki's durability and combat skill, and how long do you see his fights with Thor lasting?

And the knocking back to gauge strength argument doesn't really work, as it also depends on more than strength, and is inconsistent in the films in anyways. A guy who takes a thrust kick has a lot greater chance of being knocked back if he has a relaxed stance than if he had been bracing his legs and tensed his core at the right moment (i.e. technique and experience). Also, a single repulsor from Iron Man sent Loki flying back, knocking him on his ass, in a similar manner to Cap, Bucky, and even Falcon. So, using that logic, Loki is no stronger than Falcon is, yet we know this is far from the truth.

But anyway, I don't think the difference is that big in anyways. They're both two of the physically strongest characters in the MCU IMO, so I am happy to leave it at that. Besides, both of them will be appearing in films again later this year, so it should give us a more clear indicator than what we have now.

FrothByte
Originally posted by h1a8
He was intended to.
The same as WS didn't hit and bust real concrete.

Except that the supposed concrete that WS broke actually looked and reacted like concrete.

The pillars didn't look anything at all like limestone. A movie with the budget as big as TDKR have enough money for special effects to make something that's supposed to be concrete/stone look and react like concrete/stone. The fact that they didn't make it so means that they never intended it to be concrete or stone.

Dr Will Hatch
Originally posted by NemeBro
Done using his grappling hook, not with his strength. He weighed more than the crate so he let it toss him for him.



Don't think it was too outside the realm of possibility, nor above Bane's one-handed lifting of Batman or his breaking of the mask.



Think that was a vertical suplex chokeslam, which is well-within the realms of possibility, and not nearly as impressive as Bane keeping Batman in the air with one hand on his neck. No human being can manage that IRL.



That wall was made of like quarter inch drywall lol.

Honestly? Not really. I just watched the entire fight, and nothing there really puts him solidly above Bane. No feat is better than lifting a 200+ pound armoured man and holding him up there while walking with him, using a single hand on his neck. Nor does he break something as durable as, say, Batman's mask, by punching it.

Agree with this. Batfleck is a much better martial artist than Bane or anyone in the Nolanverse, but I'm gonna wait until Justice League to gauge whether he is actually stronger than Bane or not.

FrothByte
I really don't like Bane, or any other character from the Nolanverse when it comes to fight scenes. But in this thread I'd have to say Bane does have better strength feats than Batman. Every strength feat Batfleck has is either doable in real life by a really strong person or was assisted in some way by a gadget (physics be damned).

I'd also like to add in my 2 cents that Loki is stronger than MCU Spiderman. When Cap kicked Loki, Loki's durability would have stopped him from getting hurt but the fact that he wasn't knocked back much is a strength feat,not a durability feat. We can give Spiderman Asgardian-level durability but I doubt he can tank a full kick from Cap without at least getting blasted backwards.

Toby and Garfield Spidey is a different matter.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd also like to add in my 2 cents that Loki is stronger than MCU Spiderman. When Cap kicked Loki, Loki's durability would have stopped him from getting hurt but the fact that he wasn't knocked back much is a strength feat,not a durability feat. We can give Spiderman Asgardian-level durability but I doubt he can tank a full kick from Cap without at least getting blasted backwards.

It is also a durability feat to a degree, considering it's easier to stand your ground against something if it hurts you less to do so. It's a natural instinct to shy away from pain. Also, Loki was knocked back by a repulsor blast, just like Cap, Bucky and Falcon was. So, the knockback showings are contradictory. Plus, using that logic, a metal arm haymaker from Winter Soldier should at least have made him slide back, yet Spidey's arm (or the rest of him) didn't budge at all when he caught the fist. Considering Cap had to use both his legs to overpower Bucky's metal arm in TWS, Spiderman should be able to catch Cap's leg and stop it dead. And Cap only managed to knock Spiderman back when he was either airborne or already off balance. Falcon knocked him back when he slammed into him with both legs, while using his pack for thrust. But similar kicks did the same to Iron Man, and even knocked a helicopter off course and made it start to go into a tailspin.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It is also a durability feat to a degree, considering it's easier to stand your ground against something if it hurts you less to do so. It's a natural instinct to shy away from pain. Also, Loki was knocked back by a repulsor blast, just like Cap, Bucky and Falcon was. So, the knockback showings are contradictory. Plus, using that logic, a metal arm haymaker from Winter Soldier should at least have made him slide back, yet Spidey's arm (or the rest of him) didn't budge at all when he caught the fist. Considering Cap had to use both his legs to overpower Bucky's metal arm in TWS, Spiderman should be able to catch Cap's leg and stop it dead. And Cap only managed to knock Spiderman back when he was either airborne or already off balance. Falcon knocked him back when he slammed into him with both legs, while using his pack for thrust. But similar kicks did the same to Iron Man, and even knocked a helicopter off course and made it start to go into a tailspin.

There's no proof that Cap needed both his legs to overpower Bucky's metal arm. He used both his legs because it's hard to put a leg lock with just one leg.

Catching/blocking someone's hit and not budging is not the same thing as getting hit and not budging. Catching or blocking a hit (like Spidey did to WS) implies that you are ready for the hit and are able to exert effort of your own to counter it. Actually getting hit implies that the hit slipped under your defenses and you are not in the best position to counter it.

And Cap getting knocked back by a repulsor ray like Loki did has nothing to do with this, since we can simply assume IM's repulsor blasts have varying degrees of power/strength basing from it's varying degrees of destructive output.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
There's no proof that Cap needed both his legs to overpower Bucky's metal arm. He used both his legs because it's hard to put a leg lock with just one leg.

Catching/blocking someone's hit and not budging is not the same thing as getting hit and not budging. Catching or blocking a hit (like Spidey did to WS) implies that you are ready for the hit and are able to exert effort of your own to counter it. Actually getting hit implies that the hit slipped under your defenses and you are not in the best position to counter it.

And Cap getting knocked back by a repulsor ray like Loki did has nothing to do with this, since we can simply assume IM's repulsor blasts have varying degrees of power/strength basing from it's varying degrees of destructive output.

He has consistently failed to do it with both his arms, the latest example being in Civil War itself.

It doesn't change the fact that Cap never knocked him around while he had firm footing (like Loki did), or that Falcon's kicks packed significant superhuman force. And, besides, you have given only your opinion on what would happen if he got kicked while having Asgardian durability. You have not presented proof of this being the case. Also, combat experience teaches you to ride hits better than if you are a noob, like Spiderman. Loki has been fighting throughout the Nine Realms, against opponents in his own league, for centuries. Whereas Civil War was likely the first fight where Spiderman went up againt anyone other than street thugs.

He knocked several different individuals the same distance with the same attack, and one of them he was outright bloodlusted against, and it was not Loki. If you want to claim he hit Loki with a with different levels of to the others, then you would need to prove it.

Anyway, like I said, I don't really care enough about this discussion to keep dragging it on. Regardless of who is stronger physically (and I think it is close either way), Loki is definitely the more formidable overall opponent of the two at this point, which is what matters more IMO. So, I will leave it at that.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He has consistently failed to do it with both his arms, the latest example being in Civil War itself.

It doesn't change the fact that Cap never knocked him around while he had firm footing (like Loki did), or that Falcon's kicks packed significant superhuman force. And, besides, you have given only your opinion on what would happen if he got kicked while having Asgardian durability. You have not presented proof of this being the case. Also, combat experience teaches you to ride hits better than if you are a noob, like Spiderman. Loki has been fighting throughout the Nine Realms, against opponents in his own league, for centuries. Whereas Civil War was likely the first fight where Spiderman went up againt anyone other than street thugs.

He knocked several different individuals the same distance with the same attack, and one of them he was outright bloodlusted against, and it was not Loki. If you want to claim he hit Loki with a with different levels of to the others, then you would need to prove it.

Anyway, like I said, I don't really care enough about this discussion to keep dragging it on. Regardless of who is stronger physically (and I think it is close either way), Loki is definitely the more formidable overall opponent of the two at this point, which is what matters more IMO. So, I will leave it at that.

I had a whole bunch of answers ready but it you say you don't care enough about the discussion, I thought I'd just back off.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
The pillars were actually made of limestone since they used the landmark as a basis for the feat.

Since you want to go the IRL route, IRL the column was made out of drywall/plaster.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Since you want to go the IRL route, IRL the column was made out of drywall/plaster. The intentions were that the columns were the same columns from the actual site. In the scenes before Bane busted the column, we see that the same column is of a different material (it's the true material). It's not until the cutscene where Bane busts the column does the appearance change. This means that they inserted prop material to give the special effect that Bane actually busted through the column.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
The intentions were that the columns were the same columns from the actual site. In the scenes before Bane busted the column, we see that the same column is of a different material (it's the true material). It's not until the cutscene where Bane busts the column does the appearance change. This means that they inserted prop material to give the special effect that Bane actually busted through the column.

I don't care about your opinion, either post proof or don't bother responding.

FrothByte
Originally posted by h1a8
The intentions were that the columns were the same columns from the actual site. In the scenes before Bane busted the column, we see that the same column is of a different material (it's the true material). It's not until the cutscene where Bane busts the column does the appearance change. This means that they inserted prop material to give the special effect that Bane actually busted through the column.

False. The intentions were that the columns would be what they were made to look like. If the director wanted them to be pure concrete or marble then they had more than enough budget to make them look like concrete or marble.
Bottom line is that column didn't look like marble/concrete therefore the director's intentions were that it wasn't concrete/marble.

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Predator
Loki
Luke Cage
Spiderman
Captain America
Bane
Engineer (Prometheus)
Batman (Batman Vs Superman)
Olympics Bench Presser
Which Bane?
Mumble mouth or final solution?

Otherwise
Loki/Spidey
Schumacher Bane
Cage
Cap/Mech Suit Batman
Batman
Bench Presser
Hardy Bane

NemeBro
Spiderman (Toby, since it's the one I'm most familiar with)
Loki (hanging with Thor could put him above Toby but I've always been of the mind that Thor holds back immensely on his brother in hand to hand)
Captain America
Engineer
Predator
Bane
Batman
Olympic powerlifter

HulkIsHulk
My list:
Loki
Luke Cage~Spider Man
Cap
Engineer/Predator
Bane
Batman
Olympic Bench Presser
I agree on powerscaling Loki should be stronger


Originally posted by The Sorrow
Same Spider-Man who was owned by Captain America, same Cap who looked like a child against Loki?
Same Cap who got destroyed by Bucky earlier in the movie - the same Bucky who along with Falcon was owned by Spidey
And Cap didn't own him per se, he just got in more hits with his skill, and in the beginning Spidey was smacking him around
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Luke and Loki ARE stronger than Cap. Strength feats aren't the only criteria to gauge a persons strength.
I agree

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by NemeBro
By contrast, a Predator was "merely" capable of knocking around Arnie in a physical confrontation.
Nah that's just Arnie being Arnie. Even in the first movie Pred breaks off a chunk of a soldier's spine

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by NemeBro
and nothing there really puts him solidly above Bane. No feat is better than lifting a 200+ pound armoured man and holding him up there while walking with him, using a single hand on his neck. Nor does he break something as durable as, say, Batman's mask, by punching it.
Yeah, he also broke necks and in the opening, his hancuffs like it was wafer.
And to add to the mask showing, during the fight on the rooftop where Bats rescues Catwoman from Bane, Bats actually meets a mook's punch with his forehead and break's the mook's wrist without hurting himself. Taking that into consideration, its even more impressive that Bane could hurt Batman through that mask, let alone drop him like a sack of bricks and break the mask

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He literally went from struggling to bend a piece of railing in CA:TFA to out-muscling a helicopter in CA:CW.
I don't think Cap struggled to bend the railing in TFA. It wasn't effortless but to me it didn't look strenous either. His much bigger feats like holding up that car in AOU, or lifting that metal beam off Bucky or the helicopter looked strenous, with the latter two appearing to recquire a herculean effort on Cap's part

HulkIsHulk
I wish people would stop using Civil War fights for comparison and just look at raw strength feats - because in Civil War power levels flip flop between fights, or even within the same fight
For example, in the first Bucky vs Panther fight. Bucky is struggling to hold back Panther's arm with his metal arm but he is able to do the same thing with his normal arm despite his metal arm being supposedly stronger. You could chalk that up to position. Then when they fight again, T'challa with suit pries the metal arm off his throat, and even without the suit, shakes off a punch from the metal arm, ignores a punch from Buck's normal arm and armbars the metal arm. BP also utterly demolishes Bucky in H2H. And Bucky has been shown to be pretty even with Cap with the metal arm being stronger. So we would expect a fight betweet Cap and BP would be in Panther's favor. Then what happens? They grapple equally and Cap beats him down while fending off War Machine
cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2016/04/7e25fb617a2e-600x400.png

static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Captain-America-vs-Black-Panther-fight-in-Civil-War.jpg

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
I don't think Cap struggled to bend the railing in TFA. It wasn't effortless but to me it didn't look strenous either. His much bigger feats like holding up that car in AOU, or lifting that metal beam off Bucky or the helicopter looked strenous, with the latter two appearing to recquire a herculean effort on Cap's part

His face was scrunched up with the effort of trying to bend the railing. He even braced his legs to help him. And the thing was already halfway bent to begin with. Based on later feats, he should have been able to do that extremely easily. Which is the point I was making. He's had a power creep as the films progressed, especially from TWS onward.

HulkIsHulk
The power creep wasn't that huge in TWS. I actually argued with a guy at Reddit that most things Cap did in TWS looks doable when you carefully observe his TFA and MTA feats

HulkIsHulk
The power creep wasn't that huge in TWS. I actually argued with a guy at Reddit that most things Cap did in TWS looks doable when you carefully observe his TFA and MTA feats. The real jump was in AOU.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
I wish people would stop using Civil War fights for comparison and just look at raw strength feats - because in Civil War power levels flip flop between fights, or even within the same fight
For example, in the first Bucky vs Panther fight. Bucky is struggling to hold back Panther's arm with his metal arm but he is able to do the same thing with his normal arm despite his metal arm being supposedly stronger. You could chalk that up to position. Then when they fight again, T'challa with suit pries the metal arm off his throat, and even without the suit, shakes off a punch from the metal arm, ignores a punch from Buck's normal arm and armbars the metal arm. BP also utterly demolishes Bucky in H2H. And Bucky has been shown to be pretty even with Cap with the metal arm being stronger. So we would expect a fight betweet Cap and BP would be in Panther's favor. Then what happens? They grapple equally and Cap beats him down while fending off War Machine
cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2016/04/7e25fb617a2e-600x400.png

static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Captain-America-vs-Black-Panther-fight-in-Civil-War.jpg

The suit seems capable of counteracting the metal arm. It happens twice during the film, as you pointed out, which suggests it is not just down to strength. Because Bucky's metal arm was powering out of BP's armbar (you can see his arm rising, even though T'Challa was using both his own arms, and had leverage) when he was not in his suit, and T'Challa realised it, which is why he chose to send them tumbling down the stairs. And during that encounter, they seemed pretty even overall, even though Bucky's priority was escaping to the roof, not fighting (Bucky got the better of the first exchange and BP the better of the second).

When he fought a suited up BP, he was not fighting to kill, unlike T'Challa. He was trying to explain himself. And he had no gear, whereas T'Challa was kitted out in full vibranium armour (which gives BP a massive durability edge). T'Challa also had no real interest in fighting Cap. He just wanted him out of the way. He was flat out trying to murder Bucky. And Cap had his shield as well. Whatever advantage Bucky's arm normally grants him was shown to be effectively nullified by BP's suit.

So, those particular fights aren't actually that bad if you take everything into consideration. The Spiderman battle was PIS though, IMO. And Tony's Civil War suit was pretty weak compared to previous models.

HulkIsHulk
Anyway back to inconsistencies when Spidey fights Bucky and Falcon. Not only does Spidey spectacularly crush them, he treats Bucky's metal arm like a joke, not just the punch catch. When Spidey kicks Falcon, and Bucky tries to block it with his metal arm, it only results in him sent flying along with Sam. And this is to be expected, with Spidey's lone strength feat of stopping cold a speeding car outstripping their's. So far so good. Then Spidey fights Cap (whose always been shown to be weaker than the metal arm), and webs both of Cap's hands and starts to pull at them from behind, yet Cap manages to stay in his place and make Spidey struggle in the tug of war despite the leverage advantage, and for that he would have to be stronger than Spidey! This makes even less sense even when you consider him grappling equally with Panther, as Panther wrestled with the metal arm clearly took an effort, while Spidey was playing with it.

And Spidey in another similar cycle involving Iron Man and Giant Man as well. GM shruggs of WM's missiles to the face, yet Spidey makes him cry out with his swinging kick. Not even WM's and IM's combined flying uppercut did not get the same reaction. Then later Tony has no problem blocking Spidey's punch or restraining him with a damaged armor, but with lot less damage gets overpowered by Bucky and Cap

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
The power creep wasn't that huge in TWS. I actually argued with a guy at Reddit that most things Cap did in TWS looks doable when you carefully observe his TFA and MTA feats

I disagree there, because I am talking about an overall power creep, not just strength. I suppose one could chalk it up to more screen time to give him more room to shine, but some of his durability, stamina and agility feats from TWS would be hard to believe going just by the first two films he was in. But my point still stands. From his first appearance to his latest appearance, Steve has gotten a notable upgrade across the board.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Anyway back to inconsistencies when Spidey fights Bucky and Falcon. Not only does Spidey spectacularly crush them, he treats Bucky's metal arm like a joke, not just the punch catch. When Spidey kicks Falcon, and Bucky tries to block it with his metal arm, it only results in him sent flying along with Sam. And this is to be expected, with Spidey's lone strength feat of stopping cold a speeding car outstripping their's. So far so good. Then Spidey fights Cap (whose always been shown to be weaker than the metal arm), and webs both of Cap's hands and starts to pull at them from behind, yet Cap manages to stay in his place and make Spidey struggle in the tug of war despite the leverage advantage, and for that he would have to be stronger than Spidey! This makes even less sense even when you consider him grappling equally with Panther, as Panther wrestled with the metal arm clearly took an effort, while Spidey was playing with it.

And Spidey in another similar cycle involving Iron Man and Giant Man as well. GM shruggs of WM's missiles to the face, yet Spidey makes him cry out with his swinging kick. Not even WM's and IM's combined flying uppercut did not get the same reaction. Then later Tony has no problem blocking Spidey's punch or restraining him with a damaged armor, but with lot less damage gets overpowered by Bucky and Cap

Honestly, one of the dumbest moments is during the end fight. Close to the beginning of the fight, Winter Soldier throws a metal arm haymaker (similar to what he threw at suitless T'Challa and Spiderman) and Tony catches it without much trouble. But later on that same arm gets out-muscled and pushed up by Bucky's flesh arm.

But, yeah, the power fluctuation/inconsistency with CA:CW is my biggest gripe with the film. But I always knew it was going to happen. When you have a dozen heroes fighting onscreen, and many of them fighting each other at various points, power levels are going to fluctuate a lot for the sake of plot progression.

HulkIsHulk
Oops, didn't see your reply Vault. I said Bucky got owned h2h because BP got in several hits while Bucky got in only a couple. Heck, one even looked like a lucky shot
And yep, the CW armor was embarassingly weak. And at first I thought Cap and Bucky beating up Tony was bad. Then I watched the movid again and saw Falcon forcefully drag a helpless IM across the airport. Go figure.

HulkIsHulk
And Tony atleast has the excuse of his armors having varying performance. What of the other characters when then are weakened for plot? Three such scenes is when Bucky is escaping from the CIA. At Bucky's apartment, Bucky appears to nearly KO Steve when he throws Steve out through a window. Then the cop who got throwh out with him grapples with Cap and gives him trouble! Then WS mode Bucky owning Steve. The metal arm was always stronger than Steve, but I felt that scene was too. Overpowering both of Steve's arms to get in a stab with a little struggle is doable. Casually overpowering Steve and throwing him hard enough break through elevator doors and KTFO him? That's a little too much imo. Then there are some CIA operatives still being conscious after being punched by the metal arm, and he was not going easy on them since he guns them down seconds later. Or Nat not having even a weal on her after being choked by the metal arm, when it was making that whirring noise indicating he was upping it above normal, and she looked almost as good as Steve there. Or Bucky's arm being held down by that press.

HulkIsHulk
On a related note, my friend thinks that Tony making Bucky cry out by smacking him with his unarmored hand using the gun slide was PIS, since BW punched him in the crotch and Sharon kicked him in the face and yet it did not get that volatile a reaction. She reasons that for it to happen like that Tony has to be much stronger than them, which can't be possible since Tony is not known for being physically formidable and BW is someone with a lot of cred as a physical combatant. What do you think Vault?

HulkIsHulk
The question is, who else can be said to be Cap's equal other than BP or WS?

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
On a related note, my friend thinks that Tony making Bucky cry out by smacking him with his unarmored hand using the gun slide was PIS, since BW punched him in the crotch and Sharon kicked him in the face and yet it did not get that volatile a reaction. She reasons that for it to happen like that Tony has to be much stronger than them, which can't be possible since Tony is not known for being physically formidable and BW is someone with a lot of cred as a physical combatant. What do you think Vault?

Eh, I don't read much into that. Was likely just for stylistic effect purposes. It's not like it actually did any damage, because literally right after Tony hits Bucky the latter puts him on his ass and out of the fight.

FrothByte
I really think the Bucky vs BP should have been more even, that alone would solve a lot of the inconsistencies.

Then show Spiderman easily overpowering Cap and Cap clearly winning only by outsmarting him.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
I really think the Bucky vs BP should have been more even, that alone would solve a lot of the inconsistencies.

Then show Spiderman easily overpowering Cap and Cap clearly winning only by outsmarting him.

Well, like I mentioned before, BP had a suit and claws, whereas the metal arm's strength seemed totally negated, so gear would give T'Challa a huge edge. I mean Bucky did land quite a number of hits on him during the airport fight (like a hard metal arm uppercut right under the chin, for example), but none of them had any real effect.

What actually bugged me about Winter Soldier during most of the movie is the lack of gear. He was always packing multiple weapons in TWS, and was also armed in the CW flashback. Yet the only thing he carried during the chase, even though he had his escape route planned, was some explosives he used in the tunnel, and he pitched up with diddly squat for the airport fight. I've seen some people be like, "He didn't know they were going to have to fight", which would have been fine if virtually everyone else in his team hadn't been geared up, despite him being one of the most experienced combatants on the team. Not to mention they were actually heading for a fight with the other 5 Winter Soldiers. If the Quinjet they stole didn't have weapons on it, what was he going to use?

I agree on the Spiderman/Cap thing though.

TheVaultDweller
But yeah, I view the Bucky vs suited Black Panther like this: Imagine giving Cap Luke Cage's almost unbreakable skin and soft tissue, making him bloodlusted, adding his shield, and then neutralising Bucky's metal arm's strength advantage. Under those stips, Cap would beat the holy hell out of him. Or on the flip side, give Bucky Luke's durability, make him go for the kill, and then make him fight suit-less and weaponless BP or Cap. All of them would end up being somewhat one-sided.

TheVaultDweller
On a random note, I was rewatching the first ASM, and noticed a pretty insane strength feat for Garfield Spidey that seemingly everyone overlooked. During the carjacking scene, he webs up the guy's mouth and nose and, after checking for a tattoo on the guy's wrist, pokes nose holes in the webbing with his hand. And, earlier in the film, the webbing is described as being 10x stronger than steel, and tough enough to tow a commercial passenger plane. Which also makes me appreciate Lizard's strength, as well as how sharp his claws are, as he was able to tear through those webs without much trouble.

The Sorrow
There was no power creep between the Cap films there was just more of a focus on his physical strength. His strength was still impressive in FA.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
My list:
Loki
Luke Cage~Spider Man
Cap
Engineer/Predator
Bane
Batman
Olympic Bench Presser
I agree on powerscaling Loki should be stronger



Same Cap who got destroyed by Bucky earlier in the movie - the same Bucky who along with Falcon was owned by Spidey
And Cap didn't own him per se, he just got in more hits with his skill, and in the beginning Spidey was smacking him around

I agree
Cap owned him bro, sonned him and Spidey is supposedly way stronger. Everyone I saw Civil War with was shocked that Spidey couldn't overpower Cap. He flat out resisted Pete's strength, that's undeniable, then used experience to break free.

h1a8
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Cap owned him bro, sonned him and Spidey is supposedly way stronger. Everyone I saw Civil War with was shocked that Spidey couldn't overpower Cap. He flat out resisted Pete's strength, that's undeniable, then used experience to break free.

But there's a flaw. Spider-Man easily overpowered WS arm. And WS >>>>>both Caps arms.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The Sorrow
There was no power creep between the Cap films there was just more of a focus on his physical strength. His strength was still impressive in FA.



Disagree. Will have to locate the interview but Evans himself says during a WS interview that Cap keeps training so keeps getting better, hence the emphasis on Evans himself getting into even better shape to portray that.

But I agree it won't be some huge strength amp. And yeah he was still pretty damn strong in TFA.

TheVaultDweller
The notion that there is no power creep between films is false. As pointed out above, Evans himself has pointed it out.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
But there's a flaw. Spider-Man easily overpowered WS arm. And WS >>>>>both Caps arms.

Just like there is a flaw in that all SG's other feats contradict the key feat, yet according to you the key feat trumps all.

Have you ever heard of the term "double standards"?

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Just like there is a flaw in that all SG's other feats contradict the key feat, yet according to you the key feat trumps all.

Have you ever heard of the term "double standards"? Because it's her best quantifiable feat.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by h1a8
Because it's her best quantifiable feat.


As is Cap overpowering Spider-Man. Or pushing a bulldozer way faster than Deathlok.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
Because it's her best quantifiable feat.

Do you agree to get a mod ruling?

h1a8
Originally posted by Darth Thor
As is Cap overpowering Spider-Man. Or pushing a bulldozer way faster than Deathlok. Cap never overpowered Spidey.
Even if he did then it would a be a low showing for Spidey. Thus Cap overpowered a weak being in that scene.

Let's analyze the scene.
1. Strength plays no role in a tug of war on flat ground when maximum static friction force is reached. This force is proportional to weight. Cap weighs more and thus has a larger static friction force. That's why a heavy guy will never lose to a much lighter guy even if the lighter guy is stronger.


Or disregarding 1. above

2. Cap wasn't able to overpower Spidey with pure strength. This is because Spidey held him in place while Cap was using ALL OF HIS MIGHT. Cap momentarily gave in to the pull (to create slack) and use his acrobatics to create greater leverage to pull Spidey (exceed Spidey's static friction force).

So it's not a strength feat at all.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by h1a8
Cap never overpowered Spidey.
Even if he did then it would a be a low showing for Spidey. Thus Cap overpowered a weak being in that scene.

Let's analyze the scene.
1. Strength plays no role in a tug of war on flat ground when maximum static friction force is reached. This force is proportional to weight. Cap weighs more and thus has a larger static friction force. That's why a heavy guy will never lose to a much lighter guy even if the lighter guy is stronger.


Or disregarding 1. above

2. Cap wasn't able to overpower Spidey with pure strength. This is because Spidey held him in place while Cap was using ALL OF HIS MIGHT. Cap momentarily gave in to the pull (to create slack) and use his acrobatics to create greater leverage to pull Spidey (exceed Spidey's static friction force).

So it's not a strength feat at all.

Huh, for once we actually agree. I've pointed out more than once before that leverage and respective mass played a role in that whole scenario, so it's not the best representation of physical strength.

After all, I don't see Cap catching a 27 ton jet bridge, and we know he can't outmuscle Bucky's metal arm.

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
After all, I don't see Cap catching a 27 ton jet bridge
Huh? I thought the jet bridges of the size spidey caught were in the range of 11-15 tons.
Also, I have heard claims of the metal beam Cap lifted off of Bucky in TWS to be around 50 tons.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Huh? I thought the jet bridges of the size spidey caught were in the range of 11-15 tons.
Also, I have heard claims of the metal beam Cap lifted off of Bucky in TWS to be around 50 tons.

According calcs two different guys did on Youtube it's 27 tons (the video from one of them is linked in this very thread). And that's ignoring the fact that it actually dropped a couple of feet before he caught it, which greatly amplifies the amount of force he would have needed to produce to stop it.

I have seen people on ComicVine claim the 50 ton number, but I have never seen a single one of them actually provide any calculations to support it. And I am not taking anything people on that site says at face value.

h1a8
Yes catching a falling object and stopping it in a very small distance takes way more force than lifting it.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Disagree. Will have to locate the interview but Evans himself says during a WS interview that Cap keeps training so keeps getting better, hence the emphasis on Evans himself getting into even better shape to portray that.

But I agree it won't be some huge strength amp. And yeah he was still pretty damn strong in TFA.
Getting better =/= power creep.

I guess you could argue he is OVERALL more formidable through training factoring in all stats but Vault and one or two others have pushed the notion he is significantly physically more powerful than before. I disagree with that, he was doing exactly the same things as before but obviously with far less screen time devoted to feats because he was puny for a chunk of the film and "the audience" needed to be introduced to what Captain America was/represented before the real action started. Once it did he was still jumping ridiculous distances, throwing huge men around casually, soloing armies etc.

If you watched FA, then following films you would not be surprised by anything Cap did strengthwise bar maybe the helicopter feat, but that has been described as mother lifting a car to save a baby type of feat. It was his absolute max.

His fight against Loki absolutely still stands, and he was a few notches below that level in almost all stats bar maybe agility.

You're a Thor fan let me ask you... Do you see Spider-Man with Lokis durability only doing well against Thor? Better than Loki did?

TheVaultDweller
I said a combination of improved durability AND nearly a thousand years worth of XP added (like Loki has). Also never said he would do better. I just said he could potentially give Thor a tussle. But hey, keep misrepresenting what I said.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I said a combination of improved durability AND nearly a thousand years worth of XP added (like Loki has). Also never said he would do better. I just said he could potentially give Thor a tussle. But hey, keep misrepresenting what I said.
Never said you did. Though you certainly implied they would be comparable in your posts.

TheVaultDweller
Big difference between comparable and better. Also, consider the reverse. If you replaced Loki's durability with Spiderman's, and removed roughly a 1000 years of tutelage under Odin, as well as training and battling among people on his own level throughout the Nine realms, and replacing it with maybe 6 months of fighting nobody humans on the streets, Loki would get absolutely curbstomped by Thor. Even more so than he does now when Thor actually gets serious.

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