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The ending of Season 3 confirms to anyone who isn't biased that Old Master Maul is low tier. Yet people still claim he can beat Cin Drallig/Shaak Ti in spite of constant losses to skilled opponents. Why is it that Maul Fanboys can't accept he is trash even after his loss to Kanan and getting destroyed by Obi Wan in three moves? Who is an actual opponent that Fodder like Maul can beat?

Ben > Old Master Maul

Therefore, if

ANH Vader >/= to Ben

Then

ANH Vader > Old Master Maul

Why do people take you seriously?

He fought Ahsoka, who held against Vader tho.

Ahsoka wouldn't lose to Kanan, or die to Obi Wan in 3 moves, or struggle with a dog, or get cut in half by TPM Kenobi, or fail to kill Obi Wan with Savages help, or get choked by a fodder Chinese Jedi, or admit he couldn't beat Vader alone

It was a bad idea to resurrect Darth Maul in the first place. He was almost irrelevant to newer developments in canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a bad idea to resurrect Darth Maul in the first place. He was almost irrelevant to newer developments in canon.

Almost?

'Cause nostalgia.

Originally posted by carthage
Ahsoka wouldn't lose to Kanan, or die to Obi Wan in 3 moves, or struggle with a dog, or get cut in half by TPM Kenobi, or fail to kill Obi Wan with Savages help, or get choked by a fodder Chinese Jedi, or admit he couldn't beat Vader alone



Doesn't change the fact that he fought almost evenly against Ahsoka in a time he's past his prime. So chances are Prime Maul is a good match for Rebels Ahsoka.

Also Rebels Maul is just Maul. He's no longer a Darth.

Darth Maul is the guy who battered Qui-Gon Jinn and stomped Savage Opress, and fought back and forth against a serious TCW Kenobi.


Filoni clearly disrespected the character, but him and Witwer did bring his Intellect and Knowledge of Sith arts to the table.

Filoni really is a piece of shit. What a beta cuck

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Filoni really is a piece of shit. What a beta cuck
So is Carthage.

Originally posted by carthage
Ahsoka wouldn't lose to Kanan, or die to Obi Wan in 3 moves, or struggle with a dog, or get cut in half by TPM Kenobi, or fail to kill Obi Wan with Savages help, or get choked by a fodder Chinese Jedi, or admit he couldn't beat Vader alone

All very good points

^ And yet Maul still fought pretty evenly against her.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ And yet Maul still fought pretty evenly against her. wasn't that place a dark side nexus though, that amped dark side users? Just asking

Maybe. It's not at all implied in the show though.

maul wasn't past his prime. Why are maul fans are so desperate to stop maul's prime from being raised?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
maul wasn't past his prime. Why are maul fans are so desperate to stop maul's prime from being raised?


Because you're not raising his prime, you're degrading his Prime to be someone who can get beaten by Kanan, and is not even capable of engaging Kenobi.

Whereas TCW/SOD Maul never had losses against someone of Kanan's caliber, and was capable of engaging Mace Windu.

You keep harping on about a single circumstantial showing against an amped character who tcw/sod maul has never faced as if that means something. Powerscaling means that maul in his new prime can replicate and exceed the showings of his past incarnations. Rebels Maul also can compete with windu and can also compete tcw kenobi to a greater degree. Furthermore Rebels Maul is no longer restricted by the limitations of his tcw incarnations(being <dooku, being less skilled as a duelist than tcw kenobi and grevious). Its actually possible for this maul, by virtue of being more powerful and more skilled than his tcw counterpart to be>dooku.

If Kanan can legitmately contend with maul or beat him(which he can;t) that just raises Kanan, it doesn;t at all lower maul. If Kenobi could legitimately threeshot maul(though as rebels recon should make obvious, he can't in the context of a typical lightsaber duel), that would just raise kenobi, not lower maul

Also, as has been addressed multiple times, maul wouldn't have been stomped by kenobi had it not been for the specific type of fighting they were going after. He would have lost which isn't at all outside of sod maul's capablities given he was struggling with even tcw kenobi

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You keep harping on about a single circumstantial showing against an amped character who tcw/sod maul has never faced as if that means something. Powerscaling means that maul in his new prime can replicate and exceed the showings of his past incarnations. Rebels Maul also can compete with windu and can also compete tcw kenobi to a greater degree. Furthermore Rebels Maul is no longer restricted by the limitations of his tcw incarnations(being <dooku, being less skilled as a duelist than tcw kenobi and grevious). Its actually possible for this maul, by virtue of being more powerful and more skilled than his tcw counterpart to be>dooku.




So let's see, I keep harping on about Maul's lowest showing to date to prove he's not in his prime, and that's somehow illogical to you?

It's baseless powerscaling though. According to implications by both Filoni and Witwer and even by Maul himself, Maul's past his prime. Which is supported by canon feats and showings.

Rebels Maul's clearly not Dooku's equal. You think Dooku could lose to Kanan or not even be a challenge for Kenobi? Lol no.
I'd personally give "Revival" chicken legs Maul the best shot at defeating Dooku, given Dooku lower showings against physical beasts like Opress and Skywalker.

And what's this "Grievous was a better skilled Duelist than TCW Maul" none-sense? Don't be ridiculous.




Originally posted by Rockydonovang


If Kanan can legitmately contend with maul or beat him(which he can;t) that just raises Kanan, it doesn;t at all lower maul. If Kenobi could legitimately threeshot maul(though as rebels recon should make obvious, he can't in the context of a typical lightsaber duel), that would just raise kenobi, not lower maul




Raise Kanan to what? Ahsoka level? We know that's not true. Maul was clearly at a stage in his life where at his best he can still challenge Ahsoka, but at his worst he can lose to fodder like Kanan.

Raise Kenobi to what? > Windu level? So what is he then? Yoda level? Don't think so.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang


Also, as has been addressed multiple times, maul wouldn't have been stomped by kenobi had it not been for the specific type of fighting they were going after. He would have lost which isn't at all outside of sod maul's capablities given he was struggling with even tcw kenobi


Filoni clearly clarified in the IGN interview I've already posted for you, that Maul got stomped by Kenobi because he saw moly couldn't compete. No point in arguing that any further as Filoni has clearly clarified his meaning.

Don't really get why Old Maul being passed his prime is such a big issue.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Don't really get why Old Maul being passed his prime is such a big issue.


Issue in terms of powerscaling? Rocky seems to want to put Old Ben on Yoda level or something.

Issue in terms of accepting what Filoni did? Well he had Kenobi improving, so why not Maul? And he had Ahsoka putting up a great fight aagainst Vader, so why not Maul in his final fight ever against Kenobi? Filoni clearly hated the character, and has shown his true colours when no longer held in check by Lucas. He's shown his bias towards certain characters, and his inferior quality in story telling.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Issue in terms of powerscaling? Rocky seems to want to put Old Ben on Yoda level or something.

Issue in terms of accepting what Filoni did? Well he had Kenobi improving, so why not Maul? And he had Ahsoka putting up a great fight aagainst Vader, so why not Maul in his final fight ever against Kenobi? Filoni clearly hated the character, and has shown his true colours when no longer held in check by Lucas. He's shown his bias towards certain characters, and his inferior quality in story telling.

Well it's not like there weren't circumstances, which keep being ignored for some reason.

Fair enough on the latter ending. I hope S4 is something good, not holding my breath though.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well it's not like there weren't circumstances, which keep being ignored for some reason.




Yeah there's always "circumstances" when it comes to Filoni controlled Maul.

Fact is he would never have Ahsoka getting blitzed by Vader, or losing to a blind Inquisitor. He clearly plays favourites. As such, given actual canon showings and feats, there's nothing to put Rebels (non-Darth) Maul above Darth Maul. And a lot showing he's actually more likely to have a low performance at this stage.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Don't really get why Old Maul being passed his prime is such a big issue.
Don't really get why rebels maul being in his prime is such a big issue.
Why is accepting statements of authority a big issue?
Why is not harping on circumstantial low showings a big issue?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Issue in terms of powerscaling? Rocky seems to want to put Old Ben on Yoda level or something.

Issue in terms of accepting what Filoni did? Well he had Kenobi improving, so why not Maul? And he had Ahsoka putting up a great fight aagainst Vader, so why not Maul in his final fight ever against Kenobi? Filoni clearly hated the character, and has shown his true colours when no longer held in check by Lucas. He's shown his bias towards certain characters, and his inferior quality in story telling.
I never claimed that ben kenobi is yoda level or remotely suggested he was. How about actually reading what i write. You're ignoring the circumstances taht were given for kenobi three shotting maul and simultaneously using that showing which you're ignoring the context of to make a baseless appeal to incredulity that somehow should overwirte authoritative statements on official star wars material.

Also yea, grevious is superior to TCW maul as A DUELIST as should be obvious by comparing grevious's performances vs kenobi AS A DUELIST.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Don't really get why rebels maul being in his prime is such a big issue.
Why is accepting statements of authority a big issue?
Why is not harping on circumstantial low showings a big issue?

Because why would Rebels Maul be his prime?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because why would Rebels Maul be his prime?
Because he had 15 years spent disturbing the empire, looking for holocrons, searching for artifacts?
Because of canonical statements of authority saying he improved as a duelists?

There's no need for a why here. Authority on offical sw material(rebels recon) has clearly indicated that maul and kenobi progressed as duelists, so rebels maul is>tcw maul

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Because he had 15 years spent disturbing the empire, looking for holocrons, searching for artifacts?
Because of canonical statements of authority saying he improved as a duelists?

There's no need for a why here. Authority on offical sw material(rebels recon) has clearly indicated that maul and kenobi progressed as duelists, so rebels maul is>tcw maul

Except statements say otherwise also. Force knowledge sure I'll give you, but physicals and dueling I don't see.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except statements say otherwise also. Force knowledge sure I'll give you, but physicals and dueling I don't see.
No, they don't. There is no statement whatsoever saying maul declined as a duelist.

Starkiller will be in S4 and kill all the Rebels.

before getting ragdolled to hell by vader

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
No, they don't. There is no statement whatsoever saying maul declined as a duelist.

Aside from being old? This would affect his dueling skills to some point.

There's one from Witwer about being past his prime but I don't remember the context of it. I remember it being hotly disputed here, though.

I'm sure we'll get more clarification, when all is said and done.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's one from Witwer about being past his prime but I don't remember the context of it. I remember it being hotly disputed here, though.
Which wasn't in the context of his combative skills/ability and was rather referring to him being past his glory days when he was ruling madalore and making a bid for the galaxy.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Aside from being old? This would affect his dueling skills to some point.
Force augmentation can counteract that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Force augmentation can counteract that.



Except you have to prove the force augmentation of an older, lost and broken Maul increased. Which so far you've failed to do.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Because he had 15 years spent disturbing the empire, looking for holocrons, searching for artifacts?
Because of canonical statements of authority saying he improved as a duelists?

There's no need for a why here. Authority on offical sw material(rebels recon) has clearly indicated that maul and kenobi progressed as duelists, so rebels maul is>tcw maul



Except there's been no such statements. And statements only back up canonical feats and evidences. They don't replace them LMAO

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I never claimed that ben kenobi is yoda level or remotely suggested he was. How about actually reading what i write. You're ignoring the circumstances taht were given for kenobi three shotting maul and simultaneously using that showing which you're ignoring the context of to make a baseless appeal to incredulity that somehow should overwirte authoritative statements on official star wars material.


You're suggesting Rebels Maul could have improved to beyond Dooku level, and then suggesting Kenobi 3 shotting him should be all credited to Kenobi.

Given Yoda never 3 shot Dooku, you're argument clearly is suggesting Kenobi is now around Yoda level.

No it's you ignoring the detailed explanation given by Filoni. That Kenobi beat Maul so quickly because Maul at this stage simply can not compete with this incarnation of Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except you have to prove the force augmentation of an older, lost and broken Maul increased. Which so far you've failed to do.
actually, I don't, because we have a canonical statement saying kenobi and maul became better duelists

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except there's been no such statements. And statements only back up canonical feats and evidences. They don't replace them LMAO
no, canonical statements supersede your interpretation of feats. And yes there is such a statement

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Force augmentation can counteract that.

Which can only go so far.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're suggesting Rebels Maul could have improved to beyond Dooku level, and then suggesting Kenobi 3 shotting him should be all credited to Kenobi.

Given Yoda never 3 shot Dooku, you're argument clearly is suggesting Kenobi is now around Yoda level.

No it's you ignoring the detailed explanation given by Filoni. That Kenobi beat Maul so quickly because Maul at this stage simply can not compete with this incarnation of Kenobi.
1. I never suggested that Kenobi could three shot maul outside of the samurai style fight this was. You've been ignoring the given explanation because you don't like it. Kenobi beating maul should be credited to kenobi, not Kenobi three-shotting maul which happenend because they had fought each other multiple times before and this fight was styled after the much shorter samurai fights.

2. No, because yoda never fought dooku in the same circumstances kenobi fought maul

3. Stop cherrypicking which statements you accept and ignore.

The quote says that every time maul parries a strike from kenobi, its like saying he's "as good" as kenobi. So in the context of the very short samurai duel, all thats saying is kenobi is>maul.

And unfortuantely, the quote doesn't remotly indicate maul declined. It says Kenobi surpassed Maul because he never took the path of the lightside, somethign which applies to all of maul's incarnations.

Rebels Maul is> tcw maul.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which can only go so far.
Well it clearly went far enough because rebels maul IS >tcw maul as a duelist. If you want to argue that specific aspects of maul's ability as a duelist delcined, go ahead, but overall maul indeed did grow from his previous versions as a duelist. If any rebels characters have favoruable performances vs him, that raises said rebels characters.

If you actually want to take an amped kanan beating maul as more than pis, then all you've proven is that an amped kanan is >rebels maul and via powerscaling is also>tcw maul.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Well it clearly went far enough because rebels maul IS >tcw maul as a duelist. If you want to argue that specific aspects of maul's ability as a duelist delcined, go ahead, but overall maul indeed did grow from his previous versions as a duelist. If any rebels characters have favoruable performances vs him, that raises said rebels characters.

If you actually want to take an amped kanan beating maul as more than pis, then all you've proven is that an amped kanan is >rebels maul and via powerscaling is also>tcw maul.

But what proves Rebels Maul is > TCW Maul as a duelist? What did Rebels Maul shown that TCW Maul couldn't do?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But what proves Rebels Maul is > TCW Maul as a duelist? What did Rebels Maul shown that TCW Maul couldn't do?
What proves it is the explanation given by authority on a part of the new star wars canon, in other words, a canonical statement.

Given the statement, we can assume that tcw maul wouldn't have been capable of fighting as evenly vs ahsoka. or he wouldn't fared as well vs the three inqusitors simultaneously.

Also while we're at it can anyone explain why inqusitors are viewed so lowly here? We've seen two of them pull a freighter through the air with the engine on from the vaccum of space, they've ragdolled kanan who was capable of blasting and throwing around asteroids. Additionally they're stated to be better than most post-rots jedi. Said jedi would likely be well above the average jedi given their ability to survive order 66. Why are performances vs them seen as bad showings?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
What proves it is the explanation given by authority on a part of the new star wars canon, in other words, a canonical statement.

Given the statement, we can assume that tcw maul wouldn't have been capable of fighting as evenly vs ahsoka. or he wouldn't fared as well vs the three inqusitors simultaneously.

Also while we're at it can anyone explain why inqusitors are viewed so lowly here? We've seen two of them pull a freighter through the air with the engine on from the vaccum of space, they've ragdolled kanan who was capable of blasting and throwing around asteroids. Additionally they're stated to be better than most post-rots jedi. Said jedi would likely be well above the average jedi given their ability to survive order 66. Why are performances vs them seen as bad showings?

The explanation being what? Far as I recall, you guys being said it was about Force which ok fine, that's not the issue.

But I'm not seeing any real reason why TCW wouldn't be able to fight Ahsoka or the 3 Inquisitors either.

As far as the Inquisitors, they are fine Force wise, I just find them too factory set/generic for my taste. There's no real versatility with them, if a Jedi kills one for example, then another will show up and it'll be the exact same skill set so it's not like there wouldn't be any surprises. Plus the spinny lightsaber thing, is just the dumbest thing ever.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The explanation being what? Far as I recall, you guys being said it was about Force which ok fine, that's not the issue.

But I'm not seeing any real reason why TCW wouldn't be able to fight Ahsoka or the 3 Inquisitors either.

As far as the Inquisitors, they are fine Force wise, I just find them too factory set/generic for my taste. There's no real versatility with them, if a Jedi kills one for example, then another will show up and it'll be the exact same skill set so it's not like there wouldn't be any surprises. Plus the spinny lightsaber thing, is just the dumbest thing ever.
1. I misunderstood what you were asking for. For an explanation, their increased power in the force and hence augmentation could eclipse their physical degradement. For maul at least there's no reason he should have some massive physical decline in his 40's/50's when we have force users like dooku staying incredibly fit even in their 80's. Is not like maul wasn't active. More experience maybe. For Kenobi better mental control?

2. Well he likely can't fight them as well as rebels maul did due to being a worse swordsman.

3. I was talking comabtively, they're trash charcters

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But what proves Rebels Maul is > TCW Maul as a duelist? What did Rebels Maul shown that TCW Maul couldn't do?



Exactly. Rebels Maul has shown nothing to put him above Darth Maul. This is what Rocky doesn't get.

Rocky is clinging to a very vague sentence by Filoni where he justifies the short fight saying something like "if their fights were the same that's assume there's no growth in the characters".

That's not even a statement, and

1) Could just be referring to Kenobi growing in power (especially given Maul reverts back to using his TPM killing move which doesn't suggest growth at all)

2) Is just talking about the way characters have changed in the way that they fight. That doesn't necessarily mean they're both in their prime as duellists now Lol.

So he's clinging to a vague sentence that could be interpreted in several different ways, and on top acting like any word that comes out of Filoni's mouth is Canon Lol

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I misunderstood what you were asking for. For an explanation, their increased power in the force and hence augmentation could eclipse their physical degradement. For maul at least there's no reason he should have some massive physical decline in his 40's/50's when we have force users like dooku staying incredibly fit even in their 80's. Is not like maul wasn't active. More experience maybe. For Kenobi better mental control?

2. Well he likely can't fight them as well as rebels maul did due to being a worse swordsman.

3. I was talking comabtively, they're trash charcters

I mean yeah, old Force Users can keep going with Force augmentation, but it's not like they would be able to do so indefinitely as eventually they'd run out of gas, compared to a younger body which can also draw on Force augmentation as well and having better stamina.

They're also pretty trash too characterization wise tbh, minus the GI I suppose.

^ Force users don't necessarily just grow over time regardless of what they're doing.

A Sith needs a Master or Apprentice, and tons of Focused Rage to grow. Of course studying Sith relics, holocrons and writings of Sith past, helps as well.

A Jedi needs his Jedi brotherhood to grow.

But have them both fail in life and put them both in isolation, I would expect the Jedi to do better as he'll spend his time reflecting on his errors, whereas the Sith will just grow more bitter and not let go of the past.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Force users don't necessarily just grow over time regardless of what they're doing.

A Sith needs a Master or Apprentice, and tons of Focused Rage to grow. Of course studying Sith relics, holocrons and writings of Sith past, helps as well.

A Jedi needs his Jedi brotherhood to grow.

But have them both fail in life and put them both in isolation, I would expect the Jedi to do better as he'll spend his time reflecting on his errors, whereas the Sith will just grow more bitter and not let go of the past.

Well that too, since Jedi are all about peace, centering ones self with The Force and so on. Sith are the opposite of all that, so yeah.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I mean yeah, old Force Users can keep going with Force augmentation, but it's not like they would be able to do so indefinitely as eventually they'd run out of gas, compared to a younger body which can also draw on Force augmentation as well and having better stamina.

They're also pretty trash too characterization wise tbh, minus the GI I suppose.
1. Even younger force users can't fight on indefinitely. But more powerful force users have bigger force reserves which would allow them to fight longer than their less powerful counterparts.
2. GI was nice

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Force users don't necessarily just grow over time regardless of what they're doing.

A Sith needs a Master or Apprentice, and tons of Focused Rage to grow. Of course studying Sith relics, holocrons and writings of Sith past, helps as well.

A Jedi needs his Jedi brotherhood to grow.

.
You just made those rules up out of absolutely nothing. Why can't force users grow without an order or brotherhood? Maul was troubling the empire, collecting artifacts, and searching for holocrons. Growing bitter and clinging to vengance makes sith stronger.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Even younger force users can't fight on indefinitely. But more powerful force users have bigger force reserves which would allow them to fight longer than their less powerful counterparts.
2. GI was nice

Well not saying they can, I'm just saying they'd be able to fight longer, especially if the fighting is intense as duels normally are. I mean Qui-Gon was old and while he was able to engage Maul for a period, he was eventually taxed by his stamina. Compared to a younger Maul who wasn't any worse for wear.

Also yeah he was, the other 3 were like cardboard though.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well not saying they can, I'm just saying they'd be able to fight longer, especially if the fighting is intense as duels normally are. I mean Qui-Gon was old and while he was able to engage Maul for a period, he was eventually taxed by his stamina. Compared to a younger Maul who wasn't any worse for wear.

Also yeah he was, the other 3 were like cardboard though.
The problem with your example is that maul was more powerful than qui gon.

I'm saying that being younger Doesn't necesarily mean you can fight longer if you're less powerful because you would have smaller force reserves

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The problem with your example is that maul was more powerful than qui gon.

I'm saying that being younger Doesn't necesarily mean you can fight longer if you're less powerful because you would have smaller force reserves

But that would be made up for natural stamina/fitter body. One wouldn't need to draw on big force reserves and could focus on other things during a duel.

Plus old age clearly affects a Force User to a degree, one could look at Canon Ben in the SW comic series, he notes as such and he wasn't nearly as old as we later see him in Rebels.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But that would be made up for natural stamina/fitter body. One wouldn't need to draw on big force reserves and could focus on other things during a duel.
You're still drawing on your force reserves regardless of whether they're big or small, the question is to at what rate you're doing it. its perfectly plausible for a more powerful force user to fight longer than a weaker one, just as its plausible for the reverse. It depends on how much physical degradment and how much power growth.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're still drawing on your force reserves regardless of whether they're big or small, the question is to at what rate you're doing it. its perfectly plausible for a more powerful force user to fight longer than a weaker one, just as its plausible for the reverse. It depends on how much physical degradment and how much power growth.

Right.

Although it's not like younger guys can't have high force reserves and older having lower either, so really depends on who is fighting who in this case.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But that would be made up for natural stamina/fitter body. One wouldn't need to draw on big force reserves and could focus on other things during a duel.

Plus old age clearly affects a Force User to a degree, one could look at Canon Ben in the SW comic series, he notes as such and he wasn't nearly as old as we later see him in Rebels.
Didn't see the edit.

Well Canon ben at that point hadn't been using a lightsaber. Its implied he started practicing with it again(with him expressing the need to start reusing it). Clearly praciting with the saber as well as anything he did on tatooine(Like fending off sand people) along with his growing connection to the force(augmented speed, stregth, durability, reserves, ) as a result of his spirtual meditation since the comic was enough for him to progress as a duelist.