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Agent Ward (Marvel's Agents of Shield) takes on Kingpin (Netflix) in a fight to the Death or KO with no BFR allowed...

Melee combat only...

Who wins?

Kingpin. Way to strong and durable for Ward.

Ward, hits harder than S1 DD, is just as vicious as Kingpin a lot more skilled and a lot more experienced.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ward, hits harder than S1 DD, is just as vicious as Kingpin a lot more skilled and a lot more experienced.

Good points, but since then Kingpin has been in prison amping up by lifting heavy (I dont think Ward can bench press what Kingpin was benching in Season 2 Daredevil) and he's growing more vicious as well...

I personally think this is a very close fight...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Good points, but since then Kingpin has been in prison amping up by lifting heavy (I dont think Ward can bench press what Kingpin was benching in Season 2 Daredevil) and he's growing more vicious as well...

I personally think this is a very close fight...

Meh, lifting heavy weights doesn't necessarily translate to fighting strength. Not saying that Kingpin isn't strong, just that him lifting weights isn't the best gauge to say that he wins this fight.

Kingpin is stronger than Ward, but Ward has fought and defeated a plethora of opponents that offer more complex challenges than Kingpin.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Meh, lifting heavy weights doesn't necessarily translate to fighting strength. Not saying that Kingpin isn't strong, just that him lifting weights isn't the best gauge to say that he wins this fight.

Kingpin is stronger than Ward, but Ward has fought and defeated a plethora of opponents that offer more complex challenges than Kingpin.

I fully agree with your points, I'm just making the point that Kingpin is currently more formidible than he was in Season 1 (he is physically stronger if nothing else)...

And Season 1 Kingpin was able to fight Daredevil competitively for a bit before finally losing to him...

Ward isn't beating Kingpin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQjF6tC5yLY&t=193s

Check out fight scenes at 2:46 and 3:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUFz4sv1bTY

That's Ward fighting an enhanced human that can easily punch holes through car doors, stronger than anything we've seen from Kingpin. Though Ward eventually wins by using a gadget, he does take some hits from the enhanced human and is still able to get back up and keep fighting without looking the worse for wear. Not only that, but he was also able to manhandle the enhanced human for a bit proving that Ward himself is quite strong. And this enhanced human is both stronger and more skilled than Kingpin.

And how in the hell do you post youtube videos? I totally forget.

But does he lift?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Check out fight scenes at 2:46 and 3:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUFz4sv1bTY

That's Ward fighting an enhanced human that can easily punch holes through car doors, stronger than anything we've seen from Kingpin. Though Ward eventually wins by using a gadget, he does take some hits from the enhanced human and is still able to get back up and keep fighting without looking the worse for wear. Not only that, but he was also able to manhandle the enhanced human for a bit proving that Ward himself is quite strong. And this enhanced human is both stronger and more skilled than Kingpin.

I don't know. Those fights didn't look all that impressive, but maybe its me. The enhanced human was strong enough to punch inside a car door but was only able to toss Ward about 5 feet. Doesn't seem consistent. I think Daredevil was a better fighter than Ward too during his fight with Kingpin. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Check out fight scenes at 2:46 and 3:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUFz4sv1bTY

That's Ward fighting an enhanced human that can easily punch holes through car doors, stronger than anything we've seen from Kingpin. Though Ward eventually wins by using a gadget, he does take some hits from the enhanced human and is still able to get back up and keep fighting without looking the worse for wear. Not only that, but he was also able to manhandle the enhanced human for a bit proving that Ward himself is quite strong. And this enhanced human is both stronger and more skilled than Kingpin.

Dam...

You know, I remember Ward being a good fighter, but my memory hasnt done him justice...

Ward is an incredible combatant; I'd forgotten just how awesome his combat prowess was...

Originally posted by tkitna
I don't know. Those fights didn't look all that impressive, but maybe its me. The enhanced human was strong enough to punch inside a car door but was only able to toss Ward about 5 feet. Doesn't seem consistent. I think Daredevil was a better fighter than Ward too during his fight with Kingpin. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I too believe that Daredevil is superior to Ward in combat...

Originally posted by tkitna
I don't know. Those fights didn't look all that impressive, but maybe its me. The enhanced human was strong enough to punch inside a car door but was only able to toss Ward about 5 feet. Doesn't seem consistent. I think Daredevil was a better fighter than Ward too during his fight with Kingpin. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I posted that fight to showcase Ward's durability and considerable strength. If you want a better fight scene then here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM5sqeZDJyY


You can find more on youtube, but even with just that video you can tell that Ward takes out goons far faster and more efficiently than S1 Daredevil. He has a lot more KO power than DD and uses more debilitating moves. S1 DD takes multiple hits to finish off his opponents whereas Ward takes them out in 1-3 moves.

Here's another good one at 1:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERGgsJW_X3Q

I keep going back and forth, but at current, Kingpin by a hair for me...

I'd love to hear more arguments for both combatants though...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I keep going back and forth, but at current, Kingpin by a hair for me...

I'd love to hear more arguments for both combatants though...

Ok here's a question. Take a look at the h2h fights that Ward has gone through in the vids I posted above. Do you honestly think that Kingpin can win those if he was in Ward's shoes?

Yeah I have no idea how people think Kingpin is winning. He only even beat Castle because he'd been beaten and tortured to shit only directly before their fight.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok here's a question. Take a look at the h2h fights that Ward has gone through in the vids I posted above. Do you honestly think that Kingpin can win those if he was in Ward's shoes?

The fights would go differently if Kingpin was in those scenes; different fighting styles and all (Kingpin is more brute force)...

But yes, I do think Kingpin would win those fights; he would probaly take more damage as he comes straight at you, but I do think he'd win...

Kingpin is skilled as well (Judo if I remember correctly), has massive strength, and has good damage soak...

Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah I have no idea how people think Kingpin is winning. He only even beat Castle because he'd been beaten and tortured to shit only directly before their fight.

Castle is a bad man fueled by incredible rage...

Castles rage and anger is so great that he resisted being tasered by 4 tasers simutaneously before eventually falling...

That same rage (combined with a relentless fighting style) allowed him to defeat many prisoners in rapid sucession...

Castle is a terrifying foe...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The fights would go differently if Kingpin was in those scenes; different fighting styles and all (Kingpin is more brute force)...

But yes, I do think Kingpin would win those fights; he would probaly take more damage as he comes straight at you, but I do think he'd win...

Kingpin is skilled as well (Judo if I remember correctly), has massive strength, and has good damage soak...

Seriously? You think he can take on multiple skilled opponents in such harrowing circumstances even when he has zero feats to support it? Or even take on an enhanced individual stronger and tougher than he is?

For example Ward's fight inside the plane against multiple soldiers. You see Kingpin pulling that off?

Kingpin is below either DD or Punisher IMO, who are more comparable to Ward in terms of skill and ability (though I do put Matt a bit above the other 2). Season 1 Daredevil was not as strong or skilled as he is in season 2. And he wasn't totally recovered from his fight with Nobu during the finale either. And then there is the fact that Fisk was fighting to kill whereas Matt was fighting to capture. People try to bring up the season 2 jail scene where Fisk knocked Matt around during their conversation as evidence that Kingpin is somehow superior, but ignore the fact that DD was in his public persona, and couldn't really fight back without revealing himself. And Castle was not only battered, but shackled when he fought Fisk. So not really a fair fight. Now one thing Fisk has going for him is insane damage soak. He took repeated hits to the head from DD's billy clubs and pretty much shrugged them off. So, it's going to be hard to put him down. But I think Ward can do enough to KO him eventually.

Now, if this was a weight-lifting competition, Fisk would shit on the other people mentioned here, but it's not.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Seriously? You think he can take on multiple skilled opponents in such harrowing circumstances even when he has zero feats to support it? Or even take on an enhanced individual stronger and tougher than he is?

For example Ward's fight inside the plane against multiple soldiers. You see Kingpin pulling that off?

Kingpin held his own against Daredevil for a while and even had the advantage (and Daredevil's durability was buffed by his body armor at this point) for a bit...

And I consider an armored Daredevil to be clearly beyond all of Wards foes except the Superhuman...

Yes, that guy was stronger than Fisk, but I think Fisks anger, willpower, damage soak, and skill would allow him to fare atleast as well as Ward did...

As a side note, surfing through youtube has yielded me the opportunity to watch this sequence again...

Amazing acting this is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqXwlkBjpA

Kingpin just doesn't have the feats to go up against Ward. Ward has feats of going up against stronger and tougher opponents than Kingpin. He has feats of fighting faster and more skilled opponents than Kingpin.

Kingpin has zero feats of him going up against someone with Ward's combination of skill, experience, KO power and overall brutality.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
As a side note, surfing through youtube has yielded me the opportunity to watch this sequence again...

Amazing acting this is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqXwlkBjpA

That scene was shot really well too. They made excellent use of the camera to really amplify the difference in size between Fisk and Castle.

The thing that pushes Kingpin for me is his durability. The guy was taking repeated punches and repeated smacks to the head with DD's billy club and was still awake. Plus he was putting the boots to DD while Matt had his armored suit on. I just don't think Ward is beating him unless he has some type of weapon to bring him down.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
As a side note, surfing through youtube has yielded me the opportunity to watch this sequence again...

Amazing acting this is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqXwlkBjpA

Even this sequence shows off his durability. Frank was dealing on him and he took a few steps back and just shook it off and then continued on beating Frank to a pulp.

Like I said, Ward took a direct punch from a guy strong enough to punch through car doors and was still perfectly fine. Kingpin got nothing on that.

So despite Ward showing superior skill, speed, agility, surability, etc... Basically Wilson's superior in almost every way.

Even has better fights against better opponents.

But kingpin wins? What?

Originally posted by KingD19
So despite Ward showing superior skill, speed, agility, surability, etc... Basically Wilson's superior in almost every way.

Even has better fights against better opponents.

But kingpin wins? What?

Daredevil showed the same and would have gotten beaten to death if it wasnt for his armored costume, so yeah.

Originally posted by tkitna
Daredevil showed the same and would have gotten beaten to death if it wasnt for his armored costume, so yeah.

Matt is pretty weak compared to Ward. Even in S2 he was more of a wear you down with repeated blows than knock you out type of fighter. Ward has taken hits from guys stronger than Kingpin without an armored suit and been fine. He's fought guys faster, stronger, more agile, more skilled, etc... than Kingpin and won. In that same alley fight, Ward would've won bare knuckle.

Originally posted by KingD19
Even in S2 he was more of a wear you down with repeated blows than knock you out type of fighter.

That's not really true though. He has plenty of showings of one-shotting guys, using either his billy clubs or his fists, and was even dropping the Hand guys with minimal effort towards the end of season 2. Some of the fights had him taking down 5 or 6 Hand ninjas in like 15 seconds or less. But then I don't see Fisk doing as well against S2 Daredevil as he did against Matt from S1.

Originally posted by tkitna
Daredevil showed the same and would have gotten beaten to death if it wasnt for his armored costume, so yeah.

Not season 1 DD. DD needed MULTIPLE hits to take out your average fodder and he has never taken on foes at the same caliber as Ward did. Not only that, but DD was already weakened from his fight against Nobu when he fought Kingpin, so Kingpin fought a weakened DD and still couldn't win. Ward would have steamrolled through that version of Matt

ward wins...its not even that close, kingpin isnt as strong as some people here believe, he is merely a very strong human with some good moves, but wards is both plenty strong himself(though not as strong as kingpin in purely lifting) but far faster and more skilled in hand to hand fighting, and he has no trouble taking the fight to actual superhumans let alone peak humans strength level characters like the kingpin. ward is on a level with all other top agents like may and black widow and absurdly good at fighting hand to hand. easily daredevils equal

He's not DD's equal and he sure as shit isn't beating Widow.

You're right. Ward based on feats and his stats is Matt's superior.

Don't know if it's a fight decider, but in one early episode Ward actually pushed some hairpin or handcuff key or something UNDER his fingernails to let him later escape handcuff ( or something similar, I don't remember, it's been a while). Not a damage soak feet, but definitely in extreme pain resistance feat. Overall he gets my vote.

Ward seems to be superior to DD, simply because AOS is generally a more over the top medium (we see flying cars in the first episode), whereas you would never see that in DD (even though it's technically the same Universe), because DD is a much ch more grounded show.

That said, if we powerscale, I find dodging bullets and engaging/beating foes like Punisher and Kingpin more impressive than the unlimited number of fodder thugs Ward always takes out.

So still going to ignore Ward's fights against blatant superhumans on a level above Kingpin, and MA's on a level about DD, huh?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ward seems to be superior to DD, simply because AOS is generally a more over the top medium (we see flying cars in the first episode), whereas you would never see that in DD (even though it's technically the same Universe), because DD is a much ch more grounded show.

That said, if we powerscale, I find dodging bullets and engaging/beating foes like Punisher and Kingpin more impressive than the unlimited number of fodder thugs Ward always takes out.

Well, that and Netflix fodder (Daredevil in particular) are generally tougher than the fodder in other MCU shows/movies. For example, fodder on Netflix can get smashed through doors, get clocked in the head with microwaves, fall through floors etc. and get up to continue fighting a few seconds later. But I chalk that down to the R-rating, which gives the creators more freedom to have longer, more brutal fight scenes. Those shows don't have all the flashy elements of other MCU properties, so they rely heavily on the action sequences.

But anyway, I still don't rate Fisk on par with either Punisher or S2 Daredevil, so it's a bit of a moot point IMO.

On a random note, The Defenders should be interesting. From what I heard, the budget is $8 million per episode, compared to the $3.3 million per episode for the previous MCU Netflix shows, so hopefully they can up the ante a bit.

^ Oh, and a resurrected Elektra is also apparently returning for The Defenders.

I should probably be posting this in the actual discussion thread for it though.

A DD vs. Ward fight is a discussion for a different thread. In this thread however, I think most of us are agreed that Ward wins.

Yeah, from what I can tell, there is only one person who seems to still be arguing for Fisk.