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My initial view when I first watched the movie (before learning anything about the EU): They were basically evenly matched throughout the fight, including during the lightning attack. If anything, Sidious was the one struggling more when attacking Yoda with lightning (given that Yoda's face turned to one of determination and was no longer showing signs of being overwhelmed that he initially showed, while Sidious's face turned into one of desperation and complete loss of control). Then the only reason Yoda "lost" was because he is lighter and smaller, therefore the explosion that occurred obviously knocked him farther backwards than it did to Sidious. This is still my opinion of the fight.

Now, what is the official interpretation of this fight in canon and legends? If it is that Sidious was superior, how is this defended (given that it seemingly contradicts what was shown in the film)? Anybody know how the script described the fight?

Yoda lost fair and square.

Sources vary between Yoda being overpowered and them being equal.

In Canon, it seems like a majority of sources say Sidious won.

In Legends, it's far more mixed.

Sidious overpowered Yoda. Simple as that.

Equals with sidious taking the slimmest of edges in both categories.

Though looking at the movie and most primary sources the fight did end with an explosive stalemate though doesn't preclude sids from having a slim edge

In Legends, sources tell us both that Sidious outmatched him and that it was a draw/Yoda lost due to positioning/weight etc.

In Canon, the website (4 times), the new junior novel, Ultimate Star Wars etc. tell us that Palpatine was simply the stronger of the two. It's a much clearer consensus and might even be too generous to the Emperor.

Also, Yoda being thrown further might be a product of being lighter, but could also be construed as Palpatine being more powerful and thus able to defend himself better. Especially since the Legends junior novel claims that Yoda was partially stunned by the explosion, which is arguable in the film as well, whereas Palpatine was clearly not stunned since he managed to grab hold of the railing pretty much instantly.

Sidious won.

Now one could argue Yoda was his equal or superior, but Sidious unequivocally won the confrontation.

aids being stronger doesn't change that the fight ended in a stalemate

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
aids being stronger
mmm

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
aids being stronger doesn't change that the fight ended in a stalemate

If one of the combatants runs away and says they failed it's not a stalemate...

Originally posted by SunRazer
In Legends, sources tell us both that Sidious outmatched him and that it was a draw/Yoda lost due to positioning/weight etc.

In Canon, the website (4 times), the new junior novel, Ultimate Star Wars etc. tell us that Palpatine was simply the stronger of the two. It's a much clearer consensus and might even be too generous to the Emperor.
sids being stronger doesn't mean the fight wasn't effectively a stalemate, near equals can tie which is what happened. SIDS maintaining an edge doesn't have to contradict that the fight ends as a tie which it does

Sidious recovered faster. Yoda due to unfortunate circumstance fell and hurt himself.

Sidious won that fight and was the better fighter; not by much though... id have liked to see a rematch in the Geonosian Arena or somewhere that hold no advantage for either

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
sids being stronger doesn't mean the fight wasn't effectively a stalemate, near equals can tie which is what happened. SIDS maintaining an edge doesn't have to contradict that the fight ends as a tie which it does

Maybe not, but the sources tell us that Yoda lost and that Sidious overwhelmed/overpowered him. No source declares it a stalemate, even in Legends. They either attribute his loss to Sidious' greater power, or attribute it to his lesser weight and positioning.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe not, but the sources tell us that Yoda lost and that Sidious overwhelmed/overpowered him. No source declares it a stalemate, even in Legends. They either attribute his loss to Sidious' greater power, or attribute it to his lesser weight and positioning. I guess technically the fall constitutes a loss but the actual force battle was basically a tie. As I recall sources either say yoda couldn't defeat palps or that Yoda was outmatched, neither of which at all precludes the fight from ending in a stalemate(albeit them not being on perfectly even ground as new canon is redundantly reenforcing).

Regardless this is just semantics.

SIDS>=yoda as a duelist and force user.

Though interestingly enough two sources that Indiacate palps superiority(gillard for canon, the complete encyclopedia for legends) seem to also indicate that sidious's edge came from having use of the darksidenrather than the light which has ramifications outside this fight though the dark being more combatively powerful was reversed with kenobi va maul given the reasons given for kenobisurpasing maul

Originally posted by ares834
Sidious won.

Now one could argue Yoda was his equal or superior, but Sidious unequivocally won the confrontation.


This.

To elaborate, the website says in three different instances that "Yoda ultimately lost", that "Darth Sidious overwhelmed Master Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side" and that "Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious". Ultimate Star Wars joins in by proclaiming that "ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda". So even the Force battle was a loss.

And in Legends, TCSWE calls Yoda "defeated" following the conclusion of the duel. The RotS novelization and comic have Palpatine outright overpowering Yoda with Lightning. Only the junior novel follows the film and has the explosion of Lightning at the end, but again, Yoda was half-stunned and Palpatine wasn't, so even there you can construe it as Palpatine's win/Palpatine was more powerful.

It was not a stalemate by any means, nor do any sources state it as such, to my knowledge.

^ Yes you can argue this things because:

1) Yoda disarmed him in Sabers and
2) Palpatine never overpowered Yoda in the Force (except for that first FL shot which Yoda returned with his own TK blast).


Also there's this:

https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/9781368003063-final-2.jpg

which suggests they fought evenly. Which is what we saw onscreen.

Sheev overpowered him yeah.

ROTS Sids > Yoda. Deal with it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
To elaborate, the website says in three different instances that "Yoda ultimately lost", that "Darth Sidious overwhelmed Master Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side" and that "Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious". Ultimate Star Wars joins in by proclaiming that "ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda". So even the Force battle was a loss.

And in Legends, TCSWE calls Yoda "defeated" following the conclusion of the duel. The RotS novelization and comic have Palpatine outright overpowering Yoda with Lightning. Only the junior novel follows the film and has the explosion of Lightning at the end, but again, Yoda was half-stunned and Palpatine wasn't, so even there you can construe it as Palpatine's win/Palpatine was more powerful.

It was not a stalemate by any means, nor do any sources state it as such, to my knowledge.
1. Off the quotes you've mentioned, only the second is specifically referring to the force battle. And thor's newer canon source does state "yoda fought the emperor to a standstill".
2. The junior novel is backed up by the script. And unlike the senior novel/comic, both of their depictions align with the movie throughout the fight. Regardless of whether secondary sources inteoret it as a loss or not, the explosion did happen. Sources that try to say otherwise, to put it bluntly, are wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yes you can argue this things because:

1) Yoda disarmed him in Sabers and
2) Palpatine never overpowered Yoda in the Force (except for that first FL shot which Yoda returned with his own TK blast).


Also there's this:

https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/9781368003063-final-2.jpg

which suggests they fought evenly. Which is what we saw onscreen.

once again this all can be attributed to environment; Sidious was at disadvantage when they fought with sabers due to the cramped space he was in, alternatively how would Yoda have fared in that lightning explosion had he and Sidious been on even ground somewhere?

Sidious is probably better but we will never know because the fight took place in an area where both had advantage of the environment at some point

Originally posted by relentless1
once again this all can be attributed to environment; Sidious was at disadvantage when they fought with sabers due to the cramped space he was in, alternatively how would Yoda have fared in that lightning explosion had he and Sidious been on even ground somewhere?

Sidious is probably better but we will never know because the fight took place in an area where both had advantage of the environment at some point
We know sids is better because of the vast amount of supplementary material saying so

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yes you can argue this things because:

1) Yoda disarmed him in Sabers and
2) Palpatine never overpowered Yoda in the Force (except for that first FL shot which Yoda returned with his own TK blast).

Also there's this:

https://jedi-bibliothek.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/9781368003063-final-2.jpg

which suggests they fought evenly. Which is what we saw onscreen.

I thought the entire premise of my back-and-forth with Rocky, as well as Ares' post, was that the outcome could've been anything but that wouldn't impact the idea of either of them being better. Sidious is just better, as confirmed by Nick Gillard, Rick McCallum, the SW website (repeatedly), etc.

Regarding Yoda disarming him in sabers, I believe we've been through this before. It doesn't happen in Canon, and in Legends, it varies from source-to-source. However, we know for a fact that Yoda is not a superior duelist (per Gillard and Lucas). Those two also confirm that even if Yoda did disarm Palpatine, it would be a result of the environment favouring him, not because Yoda wa sbetter.

It helps that the website confirms that Palpatine is capable of defeating any Jedi in dueling or overpowering any Jedi with Lightning, although I acknowledge that it doesn't mean he'd be able to do so every time or that he's definitively better than Yoda. Rick McCallum and the SW website confirm that Sheev's more powerful, with the recently released junior novel also telling us that the Emperor's powers were too strong for Yoda to beat. So it's not arguable that Yoda's stronger, or even equal.

As for Sheev overpowering Yoda in the Force, that's precisely what four supplementary sources tell us in Canon, and as far as Legends goes, Yoda is outright overpowered in the novel and comic and in the junior novel, he's shown to be half-stunned by the explosion at the end, whereas Palpatine clearly isn't (given he manages to grab hold of the pod railing near-instantly).

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Off the quotes you've mentioned, only the second is specifically referring to the force battle. And thor's newer canon source does state "yoda fought the emperor to a standstill".
2. The junior novel is backed up by the script. And unlike the senior novel/comic, both of their depictions align with the movie throughout the fight. Regardless of whether secondary sources inteoret it as a loss or not, the explosion did happen. Sources that try to say otherwise, to put it bluntly, are wrong.

1. And the second quote is entirely valid. Besides, what do you think the other quotes refer to? Unless you think that Palpatine overwhelmed Yoda in sabers for whatever reason, I think it's clear that they're all referring to the Force battle there.

2. Right, but the script was obviously forsaken and isn't a canon source in of itself. And even if the explosion did happen, as I said, that's not impossible to align with the notion of Palpatine overpowering Yoda (again, Yoda being stunned and Palpatine not being stunned).

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. And the second quote is entirely valid. Besides, what do you think the other quotes refer to? Unless you think that Palpatine overwhelmed Yoda in sabers for whatever reason, I think it's clear that they're all referring to t

2. Right, but the script was obviously forsaken and isn't a canon source in of itself. And even if the explosion did happen, as I said, that's not impossible to align with the notion of Palpatine overpowering Yoda (again, Yoda being stunned and Palpatine not being stunned).
1.Yoda's fall. The fight as a whole which would include yoda being weakened by the fall.
2. Yes but the portion of the script in question here and the junior novel are validated by the movie.
3. Which is fine and is why I've been saying they aren't perfect equals. But given that sidious also got sent back flying(and we see him visibly losing control right before the exlplosion) it's fair to say the force battle was "effectively a stalemate".
Edit: accidentally deleted some of your response

1. Which was perpetuated by the Force battle... Not to mention the last one mentions being "outmatched", so that's definitely not just the fall. Only the first one can possibly be construed that way.

2. The movie doesn't validate anything. By not choosing to add in the scene where he gets disarmed, they leave it ambiguous as to whether he was actually disarmed or simply abandoned the saber fight to go to higher ground; if I just saw the movie and had no idea of the script or junior novel, would I come to the conclusion that he was disarmed? Not necessarily. Indeed, that wasn't the impression I got when I first watched it.

Besides, Gillard and Lucas (and Jamy Wheless) make it clear that any disarming on Yoda's part happens because of the environment favouring him, not because he's better.

3. That depends on whether you take the sources that claim Yoda was overwhelmed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Which was perpetuated by the Force battle... Not to mention the last one mentions being "outmatched", so that's definitely not just the fall. Only the first one can possibly be construed that way.

2. The movie doesn't validate anything. By not choosing to add in the scene where he gets disarmed, they leave it ambiguous as to whether he was actually disarmed or simply abandoned the saber fight to go to higher ground; if I just saw the movie and had no idea of the script or junior novel, would I come to the conclusion that he was disarmed? Not necessarily. Indeed, that wasn't the impression I got when I first watched it.

Besides, Gillard and Lucas (and Jamy Wheless) make it clear that any disarming on Yoda's part happens because of the environment favouring him, not because he's better.

3. That depends on whether you take the sources that claim Yoda was overwhelmed.
1. I'm only talking about the force battle.

2. I conceded yoda not being superior via blade many threads ago on a vine far far away. I'm only talking about the explosion which did indeed happen.

You can hold someone who outmatches you to a (virtual tie) which is what happened

3. Well he didn't do it decisively as him being sent back shows

And anyway Thor just provided a more recent canon quote saying the fight was a standstill, though we can just reconcile that by saying it effectively was a standstill

1. Exactly. And the quote about Yoda being outmatched is obviously referring to the Force battle, not the fall.

2. My point is that the movie doesn't give any indication of Sidious being disarmed anywhere. It's completely ambiguous.

3. No doubt it was close, but assuming Yoda's also partly-stunned in canon (which you could argue based on the film) then he was more affected by the explosion at the end.

But I feel we're more or less in agreement here, so there's no point continuing.

Originally posted by SunRazer


2. My point is that the movie doesn't give any indication of Sidious being disarmed anywhere. It's completely ambiguous.



The script is canon and completely aligns with the movie.

So yeah, Yoda won the Saber battle. Ergo an argument can be made for Yoda being equal/superior to Palpatine.

Proof that the script is canon?

And no, it only "aligns" with the movie in the sense that the events don't necessarily contradict those in the film. However, canon was defined as what aligns with what is shown on-screen, which basically means that anything we don't see on the screen isn't.

Moreover, as I said, even if Yoda does disarm Sidious, the case can't be made for equality or superiority on his part because it'd be down entirely to the environment, per Lucas/Gillard/Wheless, all of who were involved in the making of the fight scene. They make it clear that Sidious is at least as good as Yoda in sabers on neutral ground.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Exactly. And the quote about Yoda being outmatched is obviously referring to the Force battle, not the fall.

2. My point is that the movie doesn't give any indication of Sidious being disarmed anywhere. It's completely ambiguous.

3. No doubt it was close, but assuming Yoda's also partly-stunned in canon (which you could argue based on the film) then he was more affected by the explosion at the end.

But I feel we're more or less in agreement here, so there's no point continuing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Proof that the script is canon?




Really?


In the old canon it was G-Canon. In the new it's actually got more canon precedence than the ROTS Novelisation.

But in any case you know very well the Junior Novelisation backs the script.

The script is said to not be canon as far as I know, and it's not even the finished product.

But as I said, it's actually the opposite of what Ares said. Regardless of the outcome, you cannot argue that Yoda was stronger.

yup. Yoda can't beat sids, at least not for a majority

Off topic but it seems to me, given the original script, that yoda was initally going to be potrayed as just getting unlucky but lucas and co decided to go with sidious just being too good for the final version.

Earlier edits had Yoda beating Sidious but deciding for some reason or other to not go through with a victory, IIRC. However, later editions of the script were changed to Sidious being too strong and simply overpowering him (which is what the adult novel's based off), before it was presumably changed back to the explosion at the end.

How would yoda beating sidious work with the ot?

How would that make anything different? Sidious grows stronger afterwards and Yoda grows weaker.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Earlier edits had Yoda beating Sidious but deciding for some reason or other to not go through with a victory, IIRC. However, later editions of the script were changed to Sidious being too strong and simply overpowering him (which is what the adult novel's based off), before it was presumably changed back to the explosion at the end.
The early editions had Mace beating Palpatine legit too.

Looks like they originally had Palpatine below the two, then decided to make him the GOAT.

I mean they can't have yoda succeed or the ot wouldn't work. I didn't see the second part though.

Yoda beating sidious and leaving it at that makes absolutely no sense.

Ah, you mean that. Yeah, they obviously realized that no justification would've worked for Yoda leaving Sidious alone, so they had to change it to him being unable to beat Palaptine.

Also, early edits had Palpatine explicitly creating Anakin with midi-chlorian manipulation and having a "I am your father" type moment.