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Who do the following characters compare to the closest in sabers, Force, and all-out? Comparisons to the movie era would be best.

-Darth Nyriss

-novel Scourge

-prime Scourge

-Darth Thanaton

-Darth Baras

-Darth Jadus

-Darth Malgus

-Hope Satele Shan

-KotFE Satele Shan

-Foundry Revan

-SoR Revan

-KotFE Ch.1 Outlander

-KotET Ch.9 Outlander

-KotET Lana Beniko

-Senya

-Arcann

-chained Vaylin

-unchained Vaylin

-novel Vitiate (no amp)

-novel Vitiate (on Dromund Kaas)

-TOR Vitiate

-Valkorion's spirit

-prime Valkorion

Darth Nyriss: No idea; Revan was a Karpyshyn fvckfest.

Scourge (Revan): ^

Scourge (SWTOR): Darth Marr (Consume Essence notwithstanding; with that ability, he could probably border on Dooku's tier).

Darth Thanaton: Acina / Lana Beniko

Darth Baras: Darth Tormen

Darth Jadus: Darth Angral / Darth Serevin

Darth Malgus: Darth Tyranus

Hope Satele Shan: < Aryn Leneer.

KotFE Satele Shan: Meetra Surik (Revan)

Foundry Revan: Jaina Solo Fel / Cade Skywalker / Ulic Qel-Droma (strong enough to not get ragdolled by Caedus).

SoR Revan: Raynar Thul

RotE Hero of Tython: Shaak Ti

KotET Hero of Tython: > Vaylin.

KotET Lana Beniko: Acina

Senya Tirall: Meetra Surik (Revan)

Arcann: Darth Wyyrlok (in both sabers and Force); right under Tyranus.

Chained Vaylin: Senya Tirall (sabers); novel Revan (Force).

Unchained Vaylin: < Exar Kun (and any version of Starkiller).

Vitiate (Revan): Who knows?

Amped Vitiate (Revan): Darth Plagueis

SWTOR Vitiate: Talzin

Valkorion: Knightfall Vader

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"A trembling shape up and to his left chose that moment to give way, showering molten fragments all along the spine of the ship. The primary array was no great loss: he couldn't have heard anyone anyway over the racket in his ears. But the forward turbolasers and primary sensor unit, the next two chunks to go, were more of a concern... Several lower decks peeled back and were swept away, including the bridge. Most of the short-range array was gone, leaving him with just the base to hold him steady. He clenched his hands into fists and willed the ship to keep going... With a bone-jarring crack, the spine connecting fore and aft sections of the frigate snapped clean through. Starkiller reached out with the Force, trying desperately to keep the two pieces together, but nothing could be done... The fore section he stood upon was going to come down among them, doing a considerable amount of damage in the process."

http://i.imgur.com/ihpNfBK.png

nah. Originally posted by Geistalt
Now I agree it's as big as a 150-meter frigate.

Thanks for clearing that up. Still better than anything Vaylin's got. And actually measurable.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Scourge (SWTOR): Darth Marr (Consume Essence notwithstanding; with that ability, he could probably border on Dooku's tier).

valk isn't anakin level
no version of revan is jaina level

Emphasis on "border," Az.

Cade and Wyyrlok border on Dooku's tier.

And it probably would've been more accurate to say "with that ability active to its fullest extent"; against a rage-junkie like Marr, for example.

"with that ability active to its full extent" nihlus prolly could border on sids level

Originally posted by Azronger
Who do the following characters compare to the closest in sabers, Force, and all-out? Comparisons to the movie era would be best.

-Darth Nyriss

-novel Scourge

-prime Scourge

-Darth Thanaton

-Darth Baras

-Darth Jadus

-Darth Malgus

-Hope Satele Shan

-KotFE Satele Shan

-Foundry Revan

-SoR Revan

-KotFE Ch.1 Outlander

-KotET Ch.9 Outlander

-KotET Lana Beniko

-Senya

-Arcann

-chained Vaylin

-unchained Vaylin

-novel Vitiate (no amp)

-novel Vitiate (on Dromund Kaas)

-TOR Vitiate

-Valkorion's spirit

-prime Valkorion

Nyriss - Sub Fisto/?/Around early TCW Kenobi

N Scourge - Low council tier/?/low council tier

Prime Scourge - Sub Fisto/Around Fisto/Around/Slightly below Fisto

Thanaton - Trash/Slightly below Ventress/?

Baras - Sub Jinn/Ventress ?/Slightly below Fisto

Jadus - Dunno/Dooku-Vader/Dunno

Darth Malgus - Around Maul/Around Dooku/Around Dooku

Hope Satele - ??/Around Ventress/

KotFE Satele - ??/??/??

Foundry Revan - ??/??/??

SoR Revan - Above Maul/Above Caedus/Around Krayt

KotFE Outlander ch 1 - Ventress/ ??/ Around Opress

KotET Outlander ch 9 - Around Kenobi/??/ Around Dooku

KotET Lana Beniko - sub council

Senya - Jinn/??/Below Jinn

Arcann - Same as Malgus

chained Vaylin - Dunno

unchained Vaylin - ??/Above Vader/ ??

novel Vitiate (no amp) - ??/Slightly above Revan Reborn/??

novel Vitiate (on Dromund Kaas) - ??/Krayt/??

TOR Vitiate - ??/Sub Plagueis/??

prime Valkorion - ??/Sub Sidious/ ??

I mostly took accolades in consideration and scaled feats and battles from there. Some characters are highly debatable since they don't have many appearances.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Thanaton - Trash/Slightly below Ventress/?

Ventress isn't trash, lol. Anyway, what places him so high?



Why?



Why?



How in the hell...?



There is a massive gap between Dooku and Kenobi. What has the Outlander done to be ranked so high?



Again, why?

Can't place Nyriss because of what Wollf said. The novel was horsesh!t in every aspect.

Same for Novel Scourge.

Prime Scourge is a bit lower than Plo Koon.

Thanaton's slightly above Shaak Ti.

Baras with Sel-Makor amp is a bit below SoD Maul; without it he's Savage-level.

Jadus is sh!t-tier; he'd prolly take a 6/10 over Coleman Trebor.

FE Malgus is about equal to Dooku.

Hope Satele is ~ Kylo Ren.

KotFE Satele is around SoD Maul.

Foundry Revan is a bit worse than Jaina.

SoR Revan is ~ Plagueis, probably slightly below.

KotFE Chapter 1 Outlander is about Galen-level.

KotET Chapter 9 Outlander is ~ normal-state-of-mind RotS Anakin, assuming he's Darkside.

Lana is ~ Ki-Adi-Mundi.

Senya is ~ TCW S5 Obi Wan.

Arcann is ~ Dooku.

Chained Vaylin is ^

Unchained Vaylin is > ANH Vader

Novel Vitiate unamped is around TPM Sidious level (beginning of TPM)

Amped Novel Vitiate is ~ Darth Plagueis, slightly below probably.

TOR Vitiate is ~ RotS Sidious, slightly below probably.

Valkorion's spirit is TPM Sidious-level.

Valkorion himself is ~ RotJ Sidious, slightly better probably.

The format is sabers/force/all-out. I didn't say Ventress is trash, only that Thanaton is trash in sabers.

Jadus - Held his damaged dreadnought together.

Malgus - Is stated to have a flawless lightsaber form by HoT (who is a battlemaster and, as expected, should've the knowledge to proper analyze it), is stated to be an "exemplary warrior with unduplicated battlefield feats" by Sidious. You know very well this accolade is under rated, Az. His force feats while significantly pre-prime are already extraordinary, too.

Hope Satele - Blowing up an entire cliffside seems to be Ventress tier to me. Note that it's only force wise. She's obviously inferior in sabers.

Outlander - Around Kenobi in sabers and around Dooku as a general combatant. Tanking Vaylin unchained maelstrom is an excellent feat considering her ship busting abilities.

Arcann - Dominated newbie Outlander in the Force and sabers.

Vaylin - (multiple) ship busting force powers and one-shotted Arcann + Senya while veteran Outlander had the moral help from Valkorion to whitstand her powers. Note it's force only.

Originally posted by slayne
Can't place Nyriss because of what Wollf said. The novel was horsesh!t in every aspect.

What the hell did I say?

Originally posted by slayne
TOR Vitiate is ~ RotS Sidious, slightly below probably.

Valkorion's spirit is TPM Sidious-level.

Valkorion himself is ~ RotJ Sidious, slightly better probably.

slayne = TORy confirmed

edit: Nvm

edit: Turns out I'm an idiot lol.

Originally posted by slayne
As in you described the reason why Scourge & Nyriss were so hard to rank during their novel incarnations.

That.... was not wolf.

Originally posted by slayne
FE Malgus is about equal to Dooku.

How? Is there actual substance behind Malgus' hype? I don't see it myself



How?







eek



What...?



Again, what...?



You don't think the amp constituted any kind of power increase? Or do you have Plagueis and TPM Sidious far apart?



Why?



Really curious to hear your case.



Not a chance. Check out my Ultimate Palpatine essay. It should still be on the front page.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay



Quote and context, please.



HoT is factually a sub-Dooku duelist, and battlefield feats =/= ability in personal combat, or else Windu > Yoda. And nothing I've seen from Malgus would consider me putting him above even Kenobi, Force-wise



That's not Ventress-tier and she was amped by the lightsaber blade she absorbed.



Outlander has absolutely nothing on Kenobi's level, and what ship-busting capabilities? Vaylin's Maelstrom attack sucked - at best it only cracked stone.



Arcann didn't dominate him in sabers - or even close - and the Outlander has what Force feats to make this impressive, exactly?



When did Vaylin bust ships? And she didn't one-shot anyone; Arcann and Senya were simply caught off-guard. Note how in the dark side version she does the same attack and Theron Shan and Lana Beniko - utter fodder - are completely unharmed, implying very much they were simply caught off-guard and not actually hit by the attack - same with Arcann and Senya.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
Originally posted by slayne
edit: Turns out I'm an idiot lol.

The Son uses Sith power too. mmm

The Son has quotes that retcon this one.

Sidious is a master of evil.

The Son is evil incarnate.

Originally posted by MythLord
The Son has quotes that retcon this one.
None that apply to TPM / AotC. mmm
Originally posted by Geistalt
Sidious is a master of evil.

The Son is evil incarnate.
You know just as I do that that's not an argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None that apply to TPM / AotC. mmm

Yes they do lol

Show em' and let's see.

-Databank: Father



-The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis



-Encyclopedia: Son

The first quote fails to provide a date-stamp. Are they referring to the Ones as we see them in TCW, or an earlier time frame? My bet is TCW.

The second is after TPM and AotC.

The third is in the past tense, so no indication it's referring to TPM / AotC and not TCW.

Looks like Sidious is more powerful than the Son in TPM / AotC, but is temporarily surpassed in TCW due to the Clone Wars conflict increasing the Son's powers.

riiight

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The first quote fails to provide a date-stamp. Are they referring to the Ones as we see them in TCW, or an earlier time frame? My bet is TCW.

The second is after TPM and AotC.

The third is in the past tense, so no indication it's referring to TPM / AotC and not TCW.

Looks like Sidious is more powerful than the Son in TPM / AotC, but is temporarily surpassed in TCW due to the Clone Wars conflict increasing the Son's powers.

riiight

What the hell are you on? Obviously those quotes refer to TPM and AotC lmao.

Ant, in your attempts to prove how "false" these arguments are, you end up making ones that are far more reaching.

I mean, I like salt so keep going if you'd like.

Originally posted by Azronger
Quote and context, please.

It's on the Cipher Nine storyline, when I find it I'll send it to you.



LMFAO. HoT doesn't need to be Dooku level to correctly rate Malgus' form, the same way a coach doesn't need to be better than his players to avail them. He just need to be capacitated for that - and HoT is.



His "battlefields feats" are clearly linked with his capacity as a "exemplary warrior".






Evidently, Malgus' talents in personal combat are included in the quote. Quote about Windu? And even if there's one, we know from a significant number of sources that Yoda > Windu. Unless you can provide the same for Malgus (an exception to the rule that was estabilished by Sidious' accolades) your counter exemple(?) does not have validity.

Malgus deaccelerating and holding back a freighter trying to take off is almost as good as Dooku's cruiser throwing, even on conservative estimates. After that Malgus received a huge power up that made someone who could compete with him to be one-shotted. And then, he had more than a decade of growth where his "understanding of the Force grew daily". Obi Wan had visible strain to "tk pilot" and cloak Organa's ship in space, so we know his limits aren't much above than that.



Ventress best TK feat other than throwing pre-prime Obi Wan around with circunstances is causing an avalanche and destroying parts of ceillings. Unless you think the lightsaber absorption multiplied Satele's powers, her feat is still mostly valid.



Perhaps her Maelstrom was focused on the guy that was just some inches away from impalling her, instead of focusing on the walls? The animation clearly shows the walls are on the very border of her Maelstrom and not close.



KoTET Outlander is more powerful than the guy who dominated him before. Likely by a fair margin.



This "they were caught off guard!!11" meme is bizarre! They are staring at a hysterical and unstable woman who happen to be immensely powerful (for their standards).

Arcann and Senya were incapacitated by around thirty seconds - you can clearly see their bodies on the floor when the Outlander's resisting the Maelstrom. That's an undeniable one-shot. Unless you can prove the Dark Side playthrough is canon, your observation about Theron and Lana is utter irrelevant, since they were knocked out as well.

I don't mind your PT wank but you simply refuse to admit that some TOR characters can hold their own against PT powerhouses.

"Obi Wan had visible strain to "tk pilot" and cloak Organa's ship in space, so we know his limits aren't much above than that."

What? Obi wan held together, guided, and cloaked that ship "without breaking a sweat". He also did it for a lengthy period of time and this was kenobi less than a year post aotc.

And vaylin never "busted ships". She "tore them" over a lengthy period of time.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
What? Obi wan held together, guided, and cloaked that ship "without breaking a sweat".

I was certain it stated something about that he "breathed heavily" or something like that when he finished the proccess. Anyway, quote on "without breaking a sweat"? Also, Organa had partial control of the ship as well.



Unless the that part of the book is incomplete, Obi Wan only did that during the docking proccess, that is, the approximation and deacceleration to dock on the space station.



Where's the "lengthy period of time" on the text? lol

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I was certain it stated something about that he "breathed heavily" or something like that when he finished the proccess. Anyway, quote on "without breaking a sweat"? Also, Organa had partial control of the ship as well.



Unless the that part of the book is incomplete, Obi Wan only did that during the docking proccess, that is, the approximation and deacceleration to dock on the space station.



Where's the "lengthy period of time" on the text? lol
1. "He floated a starship with the Force. A whole starship. And he didn't even break a sweat." Additionally Kenobi had grown more powrful even months after the showing, let alone the 2 plus years he had to grow which included the outer rim sieges:
"the dark side smothered his feeling for the future; torqued and twisted the light side, rendering it opaque. He was so much more sensitive to it now. Another legacy of Zigoola. Which he supposed was a good thing, even though it made him feel ill. He felt a constant hum of nausea, malignantly whispering."

To say this was close to his upper limit is false.
Credit: Clone Wars: Stealth

2. Yes the point being he did it for a sustained period of time rather than a few seconds

3. The point is she didn't instantly or simultaneously do it. She ripped apart the ships over an unknown period of time. That is not remotely close to shipbusting

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. "He floated a starship with the Force. A whole starship. And he didn't even break a sweat." Additionally Kenobi had grown more powrful even months after the showing, let alone the 2 plus years he had to grow which included the outer rim sieges:
"the dark side smothered his feeling for the future; torqued and twisted the light side, rendering it opaque. He was so much more sensitive to it now. Another legacy of Zigoola. Which he supposed was a good thing, even though it made him feel ill. He felt a constant hum of nausea, malignantly whispering."

To say this was close to his upper limit is false.
Credit: Clone Wars: Stealth

And Malgus, after he slowed down and held back the freighter at full throttle, increased his powers to the point he could one-shot Aryn Leener (which he couldn't do earlier), after he abandoned his feelings towards Eleena, which Aryn noted to generate conflict on him. Then, after that, he had more than a decade of growth where his "understanding of the force grew daily."

Malgus' feat is already superior considering the forces involved and Malgus had even more growth.



On another point, the ship was in the space, in the absence of forces like gravity which certainly made Kenobi's work much easier. The only thing remotely impressive in this feat is the deacceleration process. This sustained period of time is one or two minutes at most and after Obi Wan stabilised the ship, Organa retained at least partial control of it as well.



She did when she attacked the camp - a single time! Considering the fact she was likely more focused on killing the Knights instead of blowing up ships for lulz and considering Lana states that Vaylin may be city buster tier, the destruction of the ships was probably just a side effect of her actions and not even the focus of it.

1. I'm not trying to make a comparison here. But no, Malgus's feat is not at all on par with, let alone superior to kenobi's. Malgus momentarily held back a dropship, Kenobi simultaneously cloaked, guided, and held together a 40 m freighter and did so for a much longer period of time. Additionally while malgus not only took all his effort to perform showing(and still failed) Kenobi performed his showing, "barely breaking a sweat". Kenobi had a much better showing, with much less effort. I on't care address you speculations on growth but kenobi's feat is far superior, even considering he had aid given all the things he was doing.
2. The feats way more impressive than malgus's.

3. What does her doing it a "single time" prove?

I'm not addressing the rest which is baseless speculation

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I'm not trying to make a comparison here. But no, Malgus's feat is not at all on par with, let alone superior to kenobi's. Malgus momentarily held back a dropship, Kenobi simultaneously cloaked, guided, and held together a 40 m freighter and did so for a much longer period of time. Additionally while malgus not only took all his effort to perform showing(and still failed) Kenobi performed his showing, "barely breaking a sweat". Kenobi had a much better showing, with much less effort. I on't care address you speculations on growth but kenobi's feat is far superior, even considering he had aid given all the things he was doing.

Razor was actually used as a freighter as well, lol. Malgus arrived late at the landing pad and still managed to deaccelerate and hold it back for some seconds, despite the full power of it's engines trying to break away from his grasp. Engines capables to accelerate at dozens and hundreds of G's.

So, you speculate about Kenobi growth but don't like when I do the same with Malgus? lol




No, it isn't. Obi Wan didn't even had to counter gravity. All he had to do was to stabilize the ship and navigate with the inertia. The fact is Obi Wan operated under one G, Malgus operated under several dozens or even a few hundreds of G's.



She destroyed it in single attack. She didn't attack the camp multiple times.



It's you who's speculating saying she did it on "certain length of time" when there's no evidence for that, actually, quite the contrary (Lana stating Vaylin could potentialy destroy a city).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The first quote fails to provide a date-stamp. Are they referring to the Ones as we see them in TCW, or an earlier time frame? My bet is TCW.

The second is after TPM and AotC.

The third is in the past tense, so no indication it's referring to TPM / AotC and not TCW.

Looks like Sidious is more powerful than the Son in TPM / AotC, but is temporarily surpassed in TCW due to the Clone Wars conflict increasing the Son's powers.

riiight

Mortis is supposed to be outside of Time and Space though, is it not?

Hence any quote that calls the Son the most powerful refers to every point in time simultaneously, or none at all. If it's none at all, then Sidious' don't apply to him either, so either way it works.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Razor was actually used as a freighter as well, lol. Malgus arrived late at the landing pad and still managed to deaccelerate and hold it back for some seconds, despite the full power of it's engines trying to break away from his grasp. Engines capables to accelerate at dozens and hundreds of G's.

So, you speculate about Kenobi growth but don't like when I do the same with Malgus? lol




No, it isn't. Obi Wan didn't even had to counter gravity. All he had to do was to stabilize the ship and navigate with the inertia. The fact is Obi Wan operated under one G, Malgus operated under several dozens or even a few hundreds of G's.



She destroyed it in single attack. She didn't attack the camp multiple times.



It's you who's speculating saying she did it on "certain length of time" when there's no evidence for that, actually, quite the contrary (Lana stating Vaylin could potentialy destroy a city).
1. I only brought up kenobi's growth because you claimed kenobi's showing was near his upper limit based on him showcasing strain he didn't showcase. And no, slowing down a freighter is not anywhere close to as impressive as what kenobi did.

2. Kenobi did have to counter gravity when landing it obviously. And no he didn't just stabilize the ship, he stabilized the ship, guided it and cloaked it at the same time

3. A single attack =/ a single force attack.

4. Vaylin has never came close to showing city wide capabilities. And Lanan being able to destroy a city doesn't have to be a one time attck which is the point. All we know is over some period of time vaylin managed to tear apart some ships

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I only brought up kenobi's growth because you claimed kenobi's showing was near his upper limit based on him showcasing strain he didn't showcase. And no, slowing down a freighter is not anywhere close to as impressive as what kenobi did.

I said that because I was almost sure somewhere in Wild Space it was stated that Obi Wan "breathed heavily" or something like that after he finished his task.

Actually, slowing and holding back a freighter at full power. And it is physically better. Your denial can't change that.



He floated the ship with the help of it's own inertia. Even his own POV as you posted admits he "floated a ship", he didn't propel it. Note that after Kenobi stabilized the ship Organa also assumed partial control of it. How he had to counter gravity when he landed it on a space station? Talking about gravity, Surik lifting the Ebon Hawk from the gravity well of Malachor V is far superior as well.



Baseless speculation. Someone who can easily tore through pieces of metal of the size of a small park can crush a ship or two.



Someone far inferior to her was said to be capable of levelling entire city blocks. Everything happens under "some period of time". Your assumption that it was "lenghty" is pure speculative, however. I accept the backtracking, though.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I said that because I was almost sure somewhere in Wild Space it was stated that Obi Wan "breathed heavily" or something like that after he finished his task.

Actually, slowing and holding back a freighter at full power. And it is physically better. Your denial can't change that.



He floated the ship with the help of it's own inertia. Even his own POV as you posted admits he "floated a ship", he didn't propel it. Note that after Kenobi stabilized the ship Organa also assumed partial control of it. How he had to counter gravity when he landed it on a space station? Talking about gravity, Surik lifting the Ebon Hawk from the gravity well of Malachor V is far superior as well.



Baseless speculation. Someone who can easily tore through pieces of metal of the size of a small park can crush a ship or two.



Someone far inferior to her was said to be capable of levelling entire city blocks. Everything happens under "some period of time". Your assumption that it was "lenghty" is pure speculative, however. I accept the backtracking, though.
1. You might have a point if
A. Kenobi didn't do what he did for way longer
B. Kenobi wasn't also cloaking the shipr= and holding it together
C. If Malgus actually succeeded was cloaking it and did this for far longer than malgus with much less strain. And yes he had to counter gravity, otherwise the ship would crash.

I have no idea what you're bringing surik into this for

3. Please link what you're referring to. The closest I could find is her ripping a bunch of scraps of metal from a room not close to the size of a park and using them to make a hole in the room.

4. Yes everythign happens under some period of tme. but there's a difference between say marek pushing a tie fighter and what vaylin did. What marek did happened near instantly. We have no idea hwo long it took vaylin to destroy all those ships though there's no reason to think she did it instantly.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. You might have a point if
A. Kenobi didn't do what he did for way longer
B. Kenobi wasn't also cloaking the shipr= and holding it together
C. If Malgus actually succeeded was cloaking it and did this for far longer than malgus with much less strain. And yes he had to counter gravity, otherwise the ship would crash.

You're severely undersolding the ammount of time Malgus held the ship. He did it for so long his body started to getting soaked by the sweat.



Unless you think Malgus gets soaked by doing 5 seconds of effort, it was actually significant ammount of seconds or even minutes that he held back the ship.

Obi Wan stabilized the ship, cancelling it's vibration through his TK. Nowhere it's stated the ship would've blown out if he released it. Obi Wan simply grasped the damaged ship with his TK and navegated through it's own inertia, as admited by Kenobi's own POV, until the space station. The forces at effect here are incomparable with what Malgus did.



Just bringing a superior feat as well.



Here.



The casuality of the feat above suggests she can do it.

1. His body being soaked is because he's putting everything he has into it.

2. I never said the ship was about to blow out. The ship was damaged, him smoothing the ship's vibrations, and keeping the ship "frictionless" is him holding the ship together. Add in addition to that he was also "rendering it opaque" cloaking the ship. And while he was doing both those things he was also floating and slowing the descent of the ship.

And by the way, him slowing the ship's descent, even making it so that it was "barely moving" is kenobi working AGAINST gravity. Malgus trying to keep a ship from flying up is working WITH gravity

3. First Off vaylin didn't "casually do it". She clearly was strained to do what she did and it takes her several seconds to rip the metal. Additionally as we can see from when she's about to throw the metal. The metal she rips apart collectively isn't close to the size of a small park. Her needing several seconds of clear strain to perform a feat vastly below the one you're saying she did instantly makes no sense

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. His body being soaked is because he's putting everything he has into it.

It takes a while for a body to get soaked. So, Malgus holds back the ship for significant ammount of time.



Malgus does have 1 G working on his favour, he does have several dozens or hundreds of G's working against him. lol Obi Wan was going to dock on a space port, he just deaccelerated the inertial impulse of the ship.



There's no strain. lmao The chuncks of metal, individually, are certainly capable to be parts of shuttles. Collectively, they are around the size of the small green park from the gif, dude.

1.It doesn't take that long when you're putting everything you have into doing something. Anyway, I really have no interest in discussing the science of sweat. Him being soaked in sweat is meant to emphasize how much effort he was putting into pulling the ships.
2. Yea, don't really care about fancalcs though I shouldn't expect more from a tenebrous fan. I just brought it up because you were trying to diminish kenobi's showing on the basis of him not fighting gravity and malgus fighting gravity which is the opposite of what happened.

3. No, he didn't just do that. I don't know why you keep dancing around this. He
A. cloaked the ship
B. he kept the ship "frictionless" and "smoothed out" its damage
C.And while doing the above two he slowed its descent

4. Her concentrating and twisting her hands for about 7 seconds beforehand is clear strain. i'm not sure where you got this crap about her doing it casually.

And no, as is evident by looking at the pieces of metal when they're thrown at the park, they collectively make up only a fraction of that park. And no tearing part a few pieces of metal is<<<<<tearing apart multiple ships

Originally posted by Azronger
Who do the following characters compare to the closest in sabers, Force, and all-out? Comparisons to the movie era would be best.

-Darth Nyriss

-novel Scourge

-prime Scourge

-Darth Thanaton

-Darth Baras

-Darth Jadus

-Darth Malgus

-Hope Satele Shan

-KotFE Satele Shan

-Foundry Revan

-SoR Revan

-KotFE Ch.1 Outlander

-KotET Ch.9 Outlander

-KotET Lana Beniko

-Senya

-Arcann

-chained Vaylin

-unchained Vaylin

-novel Vitiate (no amp)

-novel Vitiate (on Dromund Kaas)

-TOR Vitiate

-Valkorion's spirit

-prime Valkorion

Nyriss: Based on just her displayed power with lightning, I have her around Dooku level in the Force only.

Scourge: Not sure, maybe a little higher up there than Master Vrook. He's certainly inferior to the Exile, even after she was nerfed in the novel.

Scourge Prime: I have him around Dooku level.

Thanaton: Between Dooku and Vader, closer to Dooku.

Baras: Same as novel Scourge tbh.

Jadus: Closer to Vader

Malgus: Vader/Bane level

Satele (Hope): TCW Kenobi

Satele (KOFE): Equal to Darth Marr, whom I hold around TFU Vader level.

Foundry Revan: ROTJ Vader level

SoR Revan (time for the flak to start): In the little crack between Yoda and ROTS Sidious.

KOTFE Ch1 Outlander: TFU Vader level

KOTET Ch9 Outlander: About equal to LOTF Jaina

KOTET Lana: Not sure.

Senya: ROTS Kenobi level

Arcann: ROTJ Vader level, maybe a bit higher.

Chained Vaylin: A fair bit above Arcann

Unchained Vaylin: Plagueis level

Novel Vitiate w/o amp: </=ROTS Sidious level

Novel Vitiate on DK: >/=ROTS Sidious

ToR Vitiate: Same as Vitiate on DK

Valkorion's spirit: ROTJ Sidious level

Valkorion prime (more flak incoming, heheheh): >/= DE Sidious/GM Luke

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
It's on the Cipher Nine storyline, when I find it I'll send it to you.

Alright



What a spectacular way to miss the point. I brought up Dooku > HoT because Malgus' form is flawless in the HoT's opinion. In reality, no duelist is flawless, and the best Malgus gets out of that quote is being on a level with HoT in terms of raw skill - which doesn't propel him to Dooku-level.



You conveniently ignored the first definition of the quote: "a hostile encounter or engagement between opposing military forces" and jumped straight to the one which favored his personal combat abilities without any explanation or elaboration on why that is what the quote is referring to.

If you want Sidious' opinion on the matter, then here:

"Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time."

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you."

Clearly, if Malgus' accolade was referring to his personal combat abilities, Sidious would not make such contradictory judgements about Vader. Instead, I think it refers to his abilities on the battlefield - and by that I mean the place what I, and most people I'd imagine, would immediately associate with the word - not personal combat but the clash of armies.



Good thing I wasn't going to bring up Dooku's cruiser tossing, then. Rather, let's look at Padawan Anakin Skywalker:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5469007-6557702734-43146.jpg

I'd say that's roughly equivalent to Malgus' feat. And yes, Malgus grew, but that's hardly an issue for Dooku, considering what his pawns can accomplish:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5473881-0587845431-54342.gif

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5474468-5934279216-54741.gif

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111225346/5488589-ventress+tk+ko+anakin.gif

Ragdolling and one-shotting an Anakin significantly more powerful than the dreadnought-ragdoller? Saato, Trenox and Ventress are up to the task. Specifically focusing on Ventress, she is noted to be possibly the most powerful of Tyranus' acolytes, and she also has the best feat out of all of them:

Perhaps Tyranus' most powerful student was Asajj Ventress.

-Fact File 116

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5250775-0834915035-giphy.gif

That's significantly beyond Malgus' ship feat, and even a highballed FE Malgus is at best on Ventress' level - I won't accept anytging higher with the feat you've currently presented. Now let's look at how Dooku handles Ventress with the Force:



-Dark Disciple



-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Dooku would stomp Malgus in a Force battle, if the ship feat is the one you're using as the base for you powerscale. You'll have to present something better.



Yeah, not true (see above). Satele isn't coming close to that, and will be stomped by Ventress.



Vaylin didn't focus on anything; her attack was omnidirectional. And of you want to go that route, then how potent the attack was at the center is clearly unquantifiable. We're better off sticking with what we can measure.



Yeah, and how powerful was he before when Arcann dominated him? Without establishing that, this is worthless.



That's not ship busting, but a good feat nonetheless.



The canon path for TOR hasn't been established so I don't need to prove anything. As it stands, Vaylin's attack failed to harm a fodder tier Force user and a non-Force sensitive in a significant way. Unless you want to suggest Arcann is on Theron and Lana's level, I think it's best to just assume his Force defenses weren't active, and thus, this can't be used as an accurate measurement of Vaylin's capabilities.

Cracking stone is still her best feat



No, I don't, and you'd better not start bringing out the bias card. If you don't want to debate me, don't. But don't start calling biased if a make an argument in favor of a PT character.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, and how powerful was he before when Arcann dominated him? Without establishing that, this is worthless. Act III HoT resists weakened Vitiate's TK on a dark side nexus. Vitiate, after their battle is further weakened (meaning he is struck down and exhausted), brings down a huge portion of the temple. Mid-Kotfe Outlander > Act III HoT. Arcann outright ragdolls Mid-Kotfe Outlander.

How did ankin go from running right through ocw ventress's attack to getting ragdolled by her inferiors?

FE Malgus ~ Ventress at best? Tf?

Originally posted by Azronger
What a spectacular way to miss the point. I brought up Dooku > HoT because Malgus' form is flawless in the HoT's opinion.

Who's a fully trained battlemaster and, as such, should be a reputable source of analysis of someone's lightsaber form.



HoT didn't said that. He said his form was flawless.



This is one of the worst logical leaps I've ever seen in my life. What does HoT skills have to do with Malgus'? lol



You conveniently ignored what I typed, dude. A battle is defined as a contention of two or more people in opposing sides, which naturally defines personal duels as a "battle" as well. I highlighted that to show you his personal combat prowess is included in the quote. Anyway, "personal duels" aren't the only way to gauge someone's skills, Malgus could've fought a group of less skilled but more numerous opponents that would, in the grand scheme of things, be equivalent as if he had fought a single, more formidable individual.



That quote about Vader happens during DE, after the Book the Sith was compiled by Sidious. In any way it invalidates Sidious' analysis of Malgus' in comparison with characters like Maul and Dooku.

.

Sidious never did contradict himself there as Vader's exempt of the accolades from BoS, as it was compiled 3 years after RotS. Characters like Dooku and Maul aren't, however.



Adressed above.



This feat is significantly inferior to both Dooku's cruiser throwing and Malgus' TK feat. I did the calculations and Anakin changing the angular momentum of an atmospheric dreadnought is roughly 1/4 of the forces Malgus manipulated (around 16k tons for Anakin against around 60k tons for Malgus) and also significantly inferior to Dooku's as well (estimated as around 80k on average, converted from the work of a force)



It isn't as explained above.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5473881-0587845431-54342.gif

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5474468-5934279216-54741.gif

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111225346/5488589-ventress+tk+ko+anakin.gif



She didn't ragdoll Anakin in the last panel. She force pushed him and he lost his saber but Anakin is completely conscious and aware of what's happening and isn't in any way disabled.



Going strictly by the info you provided it seems the other acolytes did better than her. lol The quote above isn't even deterministic by the way.



Ventress, in a bout of rage, force chokes Anakin and Obi Wan for three seconds, for no consequence other than her spent powers.



A well known feat.



No, he wouldn't, as explained above.



The attack on the center was powerful enough to literally one-shot Arcann and Senya. Since it was omnidirectional, she could've most likely one-shotted a collective of people of similar power, were they to have been there.



More powerful than the iteration that withstood Vitiate's TK on DS nexus, whose a significantly weakened version could bring down the inner sanctum of the temple.



Several ships were torn to pieces while she most likely directed her atention at the knights trying to subdue her. It's ship busting.



A most faulty logic again. Vailyn incapacitating Arcann and Senya for around 30 seconds is a proof she's capable of that. You can't bring the DS playthrough to try to prove otherwise. Nothing that happens to Theron and Lana invalidates what Vailyn did to Arcann and Senya.



Faulty logic as adressed above.



It's you who've questioned my character comparisons. Your logical leaps suggests otherwise.

Arguing Ventress is comparable to FE Malgus doesn't deserve a response, tbh.

Just laughing gifs. Like god, are we in 2014 again?

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Who's a fully trained battlemaster and, as such, should be a reputable source of analysis of someone's lightsaber form.

HoT didn't said that. He said his form was flawless.

I re-checked the quote and it does indeed say that, I was mistaken.

"Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

However, that essentially renders the quote worthless if you want to prove his superiority to Dooku, since technical proficiency can only get you so far. Raw skill is important, more important than technical knowledge, I'd say.

Now, I do not know the context of that statement, but from what I understand, it was made after the HoT's battle with Malgus. And as it suggests, despite his technical perfection, he was still struck down by the HoT in lightsaber combat.



Probably the fact that the HoT defeated Malgus in a lightsaber duel... At least assuming my interpretation of the above quote is correct. Anyway, the hierarchy is clear: Dooku > HoT > Malgus as duelists.



Um, no, I didn't ignore what you said. A "battle" can refer to a clash of armies as well as a duel between two adversaries. By "battlefield feats", Sidious may refer to the former or the latter, or both, but the thing here is that we don't know what he's referring to (I have my evidence it isn't referring to personal combat, though), so you can stop acting like personal combat is included in the quote.

And no, fighting multiple weak opponents isn't the same as fighting a single powerful one, nor is there any metric to quantify quantity in correlation to quality. The notion that the quote somehow proves Malgus > Dooku is nothing but hot air.



Fair enough.



Um, no, Sidious' assessment of Vader's "unmatched" skills occurred during RotS. And since Malgus was before Vader's time, Sidious would obviously have included him in the quote as well. So it begs the question: Why would Sidious state Malgus' personal conbat feats have never been duplicated, if in his opinion, no Sith has Vader's skills? The answer would be that his quote about battlefield feats isn't referring to personal combat at all, but rather large scale engagements.



Show me the calcs. Also, Anakin didn't just change the angular momentum; he also moved it fast enough to intercept incoming missiles.



I didn't say she ragdolled Anakin. Anyway, it's noted how Anakin required saving in that situation:

Ventress, Ahsoka and Anakin square off after being dropped into a deep pit. When Anakin drops his lightsaber, he's only saved by the intervention of his Padawan.

-The Clone Wars Visual Guide



I acknowledged that. However, the fact that it is suggested as possibility implies great parity between Ventress and the rest of the acolytes.



I've seen this "bout of rage" argument been brought up way too many times as a means to undermine Ventress' feat. There's no way to say how much this supposed "rage amp" boosted her abilitiess. The fact is she tore through their Force barriers and lifted them off their feet in a clear display of domination, only being interrupted by the shaking ship.



Yeah, show me the calcs and we'll see. Even if you can prove Malgus' feat is better, I am hardly out of ammo even then. I can still slot in Kenobi and Maul into the scaling, but I'll wait for your response.



I'm more interested in Malgus vs Dooku currently than Vaylin or Arcann, so I'll leave this to another time.



I misremembered a quote; that's it. And I questioned your character rankings because I was curious about your reasoning and wanted to stir some debate.

The HoT never beat Malgus in a lightsaber duel, lmfao. A team fought Malgus, not the Hero alone.

The quote you all are citing isn't canonical.

Is anybody going to realize Az only said Asajj is comparable/superior to FE Malgus if we rely on the ship-feat scaling thing? Like, sheesh people, I know you don't agree with the guy and try to downplay him at every turn, but at least fully grasp what he's saying first.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The HoT never beat Malgus in a lightsaber duel, lmfao. A team fought Malgus, not the Hero alone.

A team we know absolutely nothing about, save for the outcome. The HoT may very well have been the one to deal the finishing blow.



You mean to say it's fake or...?

Then everyone is going to call him stupid for other reasons.

Skywalker can't be scaled off of - his potential is literally on par with the Father. Given his power fluctuates given the circumstance, enviromental and emotional, it's impossible to just stable a date on his power like you can for characters like Kenobi.

Originally posted by Azronger
A team we know absolutely nothing about, save for the outcome. The HoT
You mean to say it's fake or...?
Why are you debating shit when you have no clue what it's even about?

No, it's one of four different quotes. All the Pub protags get their own quote of beating Malgus.

Everyone quotes the Hero's but forgets the Barsen'thor, the Smuggler, and the Trooper have ones too.

---

We know the quote is BS given Malgus is still alive. He most likely fell down a shaft, perhaps due to a Rakatan-grade bomb.

Hell, for all we know, he might not have even been defeated by the team - just overstepped like Maul vs Kanan and took a massive L.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Arguing Ventress is comparable to FE Malgus doesn't deserve a response, tbh.

Just laughing gifs. Like god, are we in 2014 again?

After the retardation you pulled on the last page, you don't get to decide what's worth responding to and what's not

Lmfao, ****ing down-syndromed middle-schooler telling me what I can say and what I can't.

None of you could even provide me what I wanted. Saying they all applied to TPM/AotC when they didn't isn't an argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why are you debating shit when you have no clue what it's even about?

If you are asking this question, then I don't know what the hell you're doing here. The main objective of a debate is to broaden your knowledge base - at least for me it is - not to win.



Post them, then.



The only part that fact is that he's still alive. The rest is speculation.

Originally posted by Azronger
Post them, then.
https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/BRJt9K4/story+flashpoint:+the+false+emperor/

Can't copy and paste, but they're all here.


Nah. In the vanilla, you couldn't kill Malgus. You had to throw special grenades at him and he would fall down the pit.

They changed it so that you could actually kill him, but it seems the original is still the canonical.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao, ****ing down-syndromed middle-schooler telling me what I can say and what I can't.

None of you could even provide me what I wanted. Saying they all applied to TPM/AotC when they didn't isn't an argument.

Yeah, not going to continue this pointless bickering. I'll leave you to whine all by yourself, drama queen.

Originally posted by Azronger
drama queen.
Lmfao dude.

It looks like some bickering couple's roles have been reversed.

Have fun wearing the pants, Az.

Never in my life have I witnessed an interaction so dehumanizingly autistic.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
This feat is significantly inferior to both Dooku's cruiser throwing and Malgus' TK feat. I did the calculations and Anakin changing the angular momentum of an atmospheric dreadnought is roughly 1/4 of the forces Malgus manipulated (around 16k tons for Anakin against around 60k tons for Malgus) and also significantly inferior to Dooku's as well (estimated as around 80k on average, converted from the work of a force)
FYI

Count Dooku didn't throw any cruiser around; he force-pushed a cruiser towards the direction of his enemies (not the same as lifting it and chugging like a missile). And that vehicle was a little more than rusted piece of metal. Setting was also strong in the Dark Side.

Darth Malgus was on Coruscant. And he prevented a dropship from taking-off for a span of time. Count Dooku's feat is of entirely different character in comparison.

To give you an idea of Darth Malgus's telekinetic punch:

Aryn Leener (simultaneously) lifted and chugged 6 tram cars like missiles towards the position of her enemies. Now, tram cars are no small vehicles; they tend to be very large and heavy.

Darth Malgus sent Leener packing across the hall with a blast of power, soon after the dropship feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why are you debating shit when you have no clue what it's even about?

No, it's one of four different quotes. All the Pub protags get their own quote of beating Malgus.

Everyone quotes the Hero's but forgets the Barsen'thor, the Smuggler, and the Trooper have ones too.

---

We know the quote is BS given Malgus is still alive. He most likely fell down a shaft, perhaps due to a Rakatan-grade bomb.

Hell, for all we know, he might not have even been defeated by the team - just overstepped like Maul vs Kanan and took a massive L.


@Azronger getting owned which is becoming a norm these days.

Originally posted by Azronger
If you are asking this question, then I don't know what the hell you're doing here. The main objective of a debate is to broaden your knowledge base - at least for me it is - not to win.



Joke of the thread.

Shit, we're still citing Dooku's cruiser feat? Lmfao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Shit, we're still citing Dooku's cruiser feat? Lmfao.

What's wrong with it? Regardless of what Jude Watson's use of the "cruiser" has involved historically, this ship that was thrown was clearly one of very large proportions and it was done with extreme ease despite Dooku being located a significant distance away. Most of the cited "circumstances" that people use to deride the feat have been debunked as well.

It's just unnecessary and, frankly, annoying. I never see Dooku's handling of Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, Obi-Wan Kenobi, etc. cited, nor his performances against Mace Windu, Yoda, Anakin Skywalker, etc. It's always this one ****ing feat from this one obscure source that is effectively worthless given how irrelevant it is and how many unknown variables is included (with the Dooku supporters trying to dismiss them, but those against it constantly citing it in an endless circle). I'd understand if Dooku only had these couple novels to draw feats from, but god damn, every time I see a Dooku discussion it's these ****ing ships. Forget the fact he's bringing down Ventress with a finger. Forget the fact he's holding his own against Yoda. Forget the fact he's manhandling Obi-Wan. Gasp, a Sith Lord of significant status can manipulate relatively sizable ships with ease on the homeworld of the Sith! Who gives a ****? Focus on what counts.

Dude, where are you looking? His ragdolling of Obi-Wan, contention against Yoda and the Y: DR feat against Ventress are some of his most oft-cited feats (at least, I like to cite the Ventress feat, but the other two are universally used). I agree that his incapacitation of Sora with a single burst of Lightning (seemingly a casual one, at that) is very impressive and needs to be mentioned more, though.

That being said, Dooku, like Palpatine, is a character whose Force feats revolve more around destroying other characters rather than destroying the environment like Vader. It's a scaling-heavy approach, so when you have a titanic environmental feat that doesn't require scaling, it's naturally going to attract a lot of attention.

Didn't Az just pull off Asajj/Obi scaling on the last page and primarily focus on it? It wouldn't be a problem to not mention Dooku throwing ships if TOR wankers don't feel the need to try and make up debunked excuses for said feat in whatever thread Tyranus gets mentioned.

It's the one that's attacked most just 'cuz, in an attempt to undermine the idea that Dooku can actually hurl sizeable ships, which quite frankly even standard PT Jedi Masters can do(citing K'kruhk as an example).

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dude, where are you looking? His ragdolling of Obi-Wan, contention against Yoda and the Y: DR feat against Ventress are some of his most oft-cited feats.
BS. Significantly less than this ship feat.

Originally posted by MythLord
Didn't Az just pull off Asajj/Obi scaling on the last page and primarily focus on it?
I didn't know people even read Az's posts. mmm

Based on scrolling down to read other's posts, looked like TCW stuff.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
BS. Significantly less than this ship feat.

Not in my case, and not in the case of quite a few others. Although I agree the ship feat has gained a lot of traction since it was posted, but I explained why above. It's Dooku's best environmental feat. The rest of them are scaling-oriented.

Originally posted by Azronger
I re-checked the quote and it does indeed say that, I was mistaken.

No problem. Happens with me all the time.



I said Malgus is on the same general level as Dooku not that he's flat out superior. Also, the capacity to build a flawless (ie perfect) form is naturally connected with innate skill. A flawless form can't be exploited either.



He was "struck down" by a combinee formed by the HoT (the same who tanked Vitiate's TK on a DS nexus), the Barsen'thor, his peer, and two of the most versatile and dangerous non force sensitives in the galaxy. AotC shows that, under certain circuntances, prepared non force sensitives can give trouble even to the most talented force user. So, a very significant handicap.

Note that in the original flashpoint, when Malgus HP reached 20%, he becomes invincible and you had to syncronize ability spam on him to throw him off the plataform. The process, however, due to the game engine, wasn't as smooth as one would like, so their changed it to a "normal" way of defeating him.



He "defeated" with the help of three people. Your inequality doesn't follow.



Jeeeesus. He's praising Malgus performance as a warrior, not as a general. His battlefield feats are naturally connected to the previous sentence. Concordance, please.



Can Ventress defeat Dooku? No. Can Ventress defeat Agen Kolar, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto and Saeese Tin at the same time? No. These four Jedi can, collectively, accomplish what a more formidable force user can do alone. Your logic is debunked again.



Anakin is the Chosen One, his raw skills, regarding anything related to the Force are greater than any non haxed Force user ever. General combative ability, on the other hand, depends on a myriad of factors such as experience and mentality as well. Note that when Sidious compiled the Book of Sith, three years after, RotS, Vader was still alive and capable to build his own legacy so he was most likely excluded from the quote. Fact supported by his reminiscenses of Anakin as "the greates Jedi killer of all time" in Dark Empire.



It refers to Malgus as a "warrior", not as a commander or general. Other points adressed above.



I'll post in my calc thread.

I have a problem with your scaling, though: Not that I saw from Ventress suggests she is above OCW Padawakin. His weakest iteration tanked her force pushes/blasts and blasted her through walls. I believe no one here will claim that Ventress grew more than Anakin.



He required saving because he lost his lightsaber. Anakin isn't incapacitated, he's perfectly conscious and aware of the situation.



We both know she's stronger than them. This only becomes debatable when you start to use Game Boy level animation as a supposed proof of something.



Clear display of domination that lasted 3 seconds and she was in worse shape than the duo after it.



Will be on my thread.



Ok.



No hard feelings, dude.