Leland Chee on Game Mechanics

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DarthAnt66
Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.

DarthAnt66
Revan's domination over the strike team is legit, since as per Chee, game mechanics can be used to gauge how characters stack against each other.

SunRazer
So are Jensyn and Soverus' dominations, I assume? And Malgus' "number of people fighting me minus one" domination? And Baras being able to one-shot the Wrath if he's given time to gather his power, despite it being made clear that there's canonically a hilarious gap between Baras and the Wrath in power? Where do you draw the line?

Though I thought you believed in Revan's domination as legit anyway, so what's the point of this? Hoping to sway one or two more users to believe in it? lol

Regardless, the context of the quote appears to be RPG stats and other specifically RPG mechanics, not just any game mechanics. So that's a nope. thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Bingo.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
So are Jensyn and Soverus' dominations, I assume?
Yep. I've held that viewpoint for a while now.


No, thanks to the game mechanics x story quote.



Since when is there a big gap between them, lmfao? So yeah, he can.



RPG stats and the like are featured within video-games. There's no contradiction.

SunRazer
1. So sub-Marr chars can ragdoll the main characters? And the HoT is suggested in their storyline to be the strongest Jedi by Act II, so apparently sub-Act II HoT characters can ragdoll the Sith protags on a DS nexus.

Congratulations, you've shown that the protags are hilariously inconsistent and now dominating them isn't even that much of a feat.

2. What?

3. Since the Wrath stood in perfect health whilst Baras couldn't even conjure Lightning and lamented that "my powers abandon me". Which means Baras has far less power.

4. Except this isn't an RPG stat or RPG-related mechanic. This is a game mechanic that has nothing to do with RPG's at all. You're really reaching hard here.

If you're going to pretend that this is the type of game mechanic being referred to by Chee, you should consider the fact that Chee outright says that with game mechanics, "there is always the element of random chance involved", which means that these ragdolls could've just been down to chance. laughing out loud

DarthAnt66
1.) I consider them more powerful than any of the protagonists following Act III. The protags are more powerful prior.

2.) The quote saying game mechanics are canon unless it contradicts the story.

3. It's stated the Wrath won after a fierce battle. Baras' powers having abandoned him was because he lost.

4.) Game mechanics apply to a wide variety of things. The fact he gives specifics doesn't change anything, lmfao.

No, he says with dice, chance is involved, retard. The ragdolling is scripted, btw. It cannot happen by chance - it will always happen.

DarthAnt66
Also, I'm not sure you realize how big of a deal it is that RPG stats within sourcebooks are considered fair-game.

Revan, Traya, and Kun are legitimate contenders to Palpatine, although inferior.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Baras' powers having abandoned him was because he lost.
Or maybe his amp, for whatever reason, faded away.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1.) I consider them more powerful than any of the protagonists following Act III. They're more powerful prior.

2.) The quote saying game mechanics are canon unless it contradicts the story.

3. It's stated the Wrath won after a fierce battle. Baras' powers having abandoned him was because he lost.

4.) Game mechanics apply to a wide variety of things. The fact he gives specifics doesn't change anything, lmfao.

No, he says with dice, chance is involved, retard. The ragdolling is scripted, btw. It cannot happen by chance - it will always happen.

1. WTF are you talking about?

2. RPG mechanics, yeah. Which this isn't.

3. Sidious beat Maul after a "fierce battle". That means nothing, lol. Baras was completely exhausted while the Wrath stood there in perfect health. In other words, the Wrath's reserves are far greater.

4. The fact that you're cherry-picking isolated sections of text and taking them out-of-context to suit your ends is laughable, indeed.

5. Hence the Revan ragdolling isn't encompassed by Chee's quote. Thanks for following me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, I'm not sure you realize how big of a deal it is that RPG stats within sourcebooks are considered fair-game.

Revan, Traya, and Kun are legitimate contenders to Palpatine, although inferior.

Traya isn't competing with Palpatine if Revan is stomping her, lmfao. Not to mention that there will end up being a lot of contradictions with game mechanics. Like, isn't Palpatine's strength 11 in The Dark Side Sourcebook? ****ing Kreia's stronger at 12 strength per KotORCG. And per KotORCG, Traya has higher constitution, intelligence and wisdom than Darth Revan. laughing out loud

EDIT: Per KotORCG and DSS, Traya has Darth Sidious beat in all stats. laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. WTF are you talking about?

The protags were surpassed by them between the ending of Act III and the Revanite conflict.



Yeah, and SWTOR has RPG mechanics. It's a ****ing MMORPG.



I completely disagree with that interpretation, lol.

Seems to me like the Wrath won after a brutal confrontation.



Firstly, why can we never have a conversation without you saying retarded shit?

It's genuinely annoying talking to you.

For one, the roleplaying mechanics of DSS and KotORCG are completely different, lmfao.

One's a d6 and the other's a d20, I believe, so the stats aren't translatable. They're scaled different.

I'm not that big into roleplaying and even I know that, rofl.

DarthAnt66
Off to bed. It's 2am.

Closing thoughts:

No clue why the fact it's electronic means that it's no longer counted. It's still an RPG.

SunRazer
1. The protags are younger and are already much stronger, meaning that they have far more potential. The protags would grow much, much faster than Jensyn or Soverus.

You think they go from being sub-Act II HoT to being able to dominate all of the SoR Imp protags on a DS nexus? Jesus Christ.

2. Right, and this mechanic here isn't an RPG mechanic. Just because it's in a MMORPG doesn't mean all the game mechanics are RPG mechanics. Not hard to understand. erm

3. Brutal enough for him to stand there in fine condition whilst Baras was completely depleted? lol

4. Ah, I thought it was d20. Not that comparing Palpatine to other characters in DSS makes it much better, lol. Not to mention that Palpatine's highest stat is INT (which is skills) rather than WIS (which is Force powers, IIRC). We've also got Hethrir being stronger than Vader in WIS.

Anyway, I gave you an example of Traya beating Revan in CON, INT and WIS in the same book (KotORCG). You seem to have no counter for that. There goes your argument about Revan having more willpower (WIS). And Malak has more charisma than Revan. GG.

EDIT: The Dark Side Sourcebook is d20, as I thought. It's from WotC after all. Traya beats Palpatine in all stats. laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing laughing laughing

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's domination over the strike team is legit, since as per Chee, game mechanics can be used to gauge how characters stack against each other. laughing out loud

MythLord
Ant, you do know the difference between an RPG and MMORPG or a JRPG, right?

TenebrousWay
Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created.

The primary objective of game mechanics is to offer entertainment to the player, as the quote estabilishes. To follow continuity is a loose, secondary objective. They aren't canon at all.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by SunRazer
EDIT: The Dark Side Sourcebook is d20, as I thought. It's from WotC after all. Traya beats Palpatine in all stats. laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing laughing laughing

They are mere scrubs if compared to GodBane from SAGA. wink

SunRazer
Besides, at no point does he say stats are canon. He says the writers might look to them for inspiration at times but specifically places them below canon material. I mean at most, something like the powers the character knows or something might be usable in a thread but passing off the STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA stats as legit comparisons is hilariously wrong.

Though I'm curious to see if Ant still believes they're legit.

TenebrousWay
I don't see why force powers know are more trustworthy than the stats. I think once you touch character sheet you either scrap everything there or treat any information as factual.

SunRazer
That was me taking it to the extreme; that maximum leniency I could imagine. But you're right; then you reach conclusions like Malak and Traya being able to Drain people across star systems. So you might as well scrap it all.

TenebrousWay
You forgot about the line of sight. Broke my back in several games. =/

Fated Xtasy
Ant your grasping at straws.

Beniboybling
thumb up

MythLord
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ant your grasping at straws.

What about his grasping at straws?

DarthAnt66
Question: Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?

Answer: Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081220112741/http://forums.starwars.com:80/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=552

---

There you ****ing go. I was right. The question has "video games" in the question.

Concessions accepted all around.

Beniboybling
facepalm

DarthAnt66
Facepalming doesn't change the facts. The question blatantly asks game mechanics in the context of both video-games and RPG, not exclusively RPG like ya'll were arguing.

Beniboybling
Yeah cool, what we're all still waiting for though is the quote that actually supports your case that all game mechanics should be taken at face value. Since this is nowhere stated.

DarthAnt66
My case was that Revan's vast superiority over the team is confirmed, since as per Chee, character comparisons can be made.

The comparison being made is that Revan is ragdolling distance beyond the strike team that fought him.

Beniboybling
Nope, there is no carte blanche here. Chee saying that game mechanics "can" serve such a purpose doesn't mean they always do, the only example given being statistics from RPGs.

Face it, only morons will ever agree that scrub DC members can ragdoll Nox and the Wrath, no matter how entertaining that prospect may be. laughing out loud

DarthAnt66
They're two completely different things.

Revan's ragdolling was:

- A mandatory scripted event
- Against NPCs, not the player
- Featured within a story mission

The flashpoint bosses was:

- A timed, random event
- Against the player, not NPCs
- Featured within a flashpoint

Also, he says "can" due to the chance provided by the dice.

One could say that timed events likewise fall under such a chance.

Revan's event does not, though. The comparison is legit.

Beniboybling
Idc? They are both gameplay mechanics, I'm not interested in these rules you've made up around them.

And more arbitrary assumptions lol, not even worth a response.

DarthAnt66
The fact something is "game mechanics" doesn't mean it's just thrown into a trash can, lmfao.

Chee says they can be used to gauge how characters stack up against other ones.

The exception he provides is if chance is involved, which the flashpoint bosses fall under.

Revan doesn't. Revan's is canonically upheld by being in a canon game and confirmed by Chee.

DarthAnt66
For the record, Sorverus only temporarily chokes the protagonists, he doesn't ragdoll them.

Also, it appears he does this my unleashing telekinesis and telepathy at the same time.

He incapacitates them via telepathy, and since they're KOed, he then lifts them with telekinesis.

It's not like he's just plowing through all their barriers. It's more of a mastery showing than power.

It's not incredibly hard to believe.

S_W_LeGenD
@DarthAnt66

Revan dominating members of the Strike Team like that, seems to be a game mechanic to make your game-play experience interesting and challenging.

It doesn't seems like a scripted sequence of events. Look at the outcome! All members of the Strike Team survived somehow.

I would expect some deaths/knock-outs in a realistic medium.

Not trying to question Revan's power but expecting him to ragdoll the likes of Darth Marr, Lana Baniko and Satele Shan simultaneously? How come the protagonist was moving around?

On the other hand, Revan could be using the setting to his advantage to outwit members of the Strike Team and/or disorient them or break their cohesion. Could be a number of things.

DarthAnt66
It's scripted. It happens exactly at certain intervals every time, unlike all the other powers unleashed, which is rolled by probability.

They survived since the Hero of Tython was capable of freeing them from Revan's hold, likely due to the aid of Revan's spirit, who also helped in the ToS fight.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact something is "game mechanics" doesn't mean it's just thrown into a trash can, lmfao.

Chee says they can be used to gauge how characters stack up against other ones.

The exception he provides is if chance is involved, which the flashpoint bosses fall under.

Revan doesn't. Revan's is canonically upheld by being in a canon game and confirmed by Chee. That's not what I said, I said your making up rules as to how different game mechanics should be treated with no basis.

And nope he's taking about board games specifically there (either as an example, or because he's only actually talking about board games) videogames don't have dice, you moron.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For the record, Sorverus only temporarily chokes the protagonists, he doesn't ragdoll them.

Also, it appears he does this my unleashing telekinesis and telepathy at the same time.

He incapacitates them via telepathy, and since they're KOed, he then lifts them with telekinesis.

It's not like he's just plowing through all their barriers. It's more of a mastery showing than power.

It's not incredibly hard to believe. Keep trying to sugarcoat it, it's still cancer. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not what I said, I said your making up rules as to how different game mechanics should be treated with no basis.

And nope he's taking about board games specifically there (either as an example, or because he's only actually talking about board games) videogames don't have dice, you moron.
I'm providing the rules Chee established. You, self-admittedly, are ignoring them, lmfao.

It can be interpreted as probability rolls in video-games too, ****ing retard. erm

Even if you don't want to, that's not my problem. Revan's doesn't fall under that boat.



As if Star Wars has never had questionable showings before.

Revan's is canon. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's scripted. It happens exactly at certain intervals every time, unlike all the other powers unleashed, which is rolled by probability.

They survived since the Hero of Tython was capable of freeing them from Revan's hold, likely due to the aid of Revan's spirit, who also helped in the ToS fight.
If Revan is really that powerful, shouldn't he rank above the likes of Yoda and Darth Plagueis?

He is not a Jedi at this point anyway.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Revan is really that powerful, shouldn't he rank about Yoda?

He is not a Jedi at this point anyway.
Most members don't rank Marr and Shan very high, so the feat isn't regarded as something beyond Yoda.

It definitely puts Revan significantly above those like Vader. Although that was obvious even ignoring the feat. wink

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Most members don't rank Marr and Shan very high, so the feat isn't regarded as something beyond Yoda.
They tend to perceive Revan as a Jedi and try to place him below Yoda, without realizing the fact that Revan is neither a Jedi and nor a Sith.

Darth Marr and Satele Shan are legitimate powerhouses.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm providing the rules Chee established. You, self-admittedly, are ignoring them, lmfao.Orly? You must have special glasses then (or special needs) as I'm not seeing anywhere Chee even mentioning video games specifically, let alone outlining which mechanics are and are not canon. sad

Right, do you know what dice are mate? I can provide pictures if you like.

Doesn't matter as it's just an example, yeah.

Is that the best you can manage? Star Wars has had questionable showings in the past yes, but not ones that ride roughshod over established settings within the same source material lmao. The "galaxy's greatest champions" to food for fodder, how far they've fallen. laughing out loud

Keep reaching. thumb up

SunRazer
Malgus and Soverus stuff is also timed to happen, not just random.

Geistalt
Loving Beni's desperation. smile

Greysentinel365
........ Excellent!

Plo Koon = Dooku due to both having +7 force powers in the Clone Wars campaign guide

Geistalt
Right; because you can totally find feats for them and gauge their Force power through a guide for an RPG.

SunRazer
Ant, when even LeGenD sees the light before you do, you know something's wrong. Wake up.

Beniboybling
As long as there's a chance quarter wits like Geistalt will buy it, he won't. sad

SunRazer
Well, it's never going to be a win for Revan. Either we don't accept all of the boss ragdolls, or we accept all of them. If it's the former, then Revan doesn't get the feat. If it's the latter, then the protagonists are so shit/inconsistent that Revan's ragdoll means nothing anyway.

Beniboybling
Yeah if anything it's just embarrassing that they managed to beat him. sad

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant, when even LeGenD sees the light before you do, you know something's wrong. Wake up.
Unless new evidence is provided, I don't even consider it up for debate - just a fact that I will try to get others to recognize as well.

I think you understand too that any rationalize interpretation of the various quotes I've provided will recognize it is technically canonical.

For whether a bias against Revan, or ignorance against other SWTOR showings, you want to ignore the facts presented in front of you.

That's the case for Beni at least, who directly admitted that he's just ignoring canon policy in favor of his own preconceptions, which is wrong.

DarthAnt66
FYI, you'd be surprised how many people already accept the feat as canonical. thumb up

Lord Stark
All video games as of now are under the old Legends continuity. The Legends continuity has a very specific statute about game mechanics. They are n-canon. Now this quote can be applied to any future games released under the canon.

DarthAnt66
Quote? The old EU has tons on quotes on the canoncity of game mechanics, all of which upheld its legitimacy.

SunRazer
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
FYI, you'd be surprised how many people already accept the feat as canonical. thumb up

I'm aware of a couple of Revan fanboys, yeah. Even LeGenD doesn't accept it, and he wanks TOR.

Geistalt
This is just payback for "Ulic > Valkoriate."

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware of a couple of Revan fanboys, yeah. Even LeGenD doesn't accept it, and he wanks TOR.
He didn't originally because he didn't understand the full context behind the feat, but after I explained it, he agreed to support it.

Unless he changed his mind somewhere above?

SunRazer
Last I saw of him, he was still questioning it and never officially claimed to support it.

Regardless, the funny thing is that Beni's rebuttals still stand.

DarthAnt66
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Orly? You must have special glasses then (or special needs) as I'm not seeing anywhere Chee even mentioning video games specifically, let alone outlining which mechanics are and are not canon. sad

Uh, how about the question, which asks about video-games.

What, you think Chee forgot what the question asked from the time he read it and the time he began typing?



Try Dark Disciple. thumb up

The fact they're new characters doesn't make them fodder either.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Beniboybling
WAH!

They think Kun < Revan

https://media.giphy.com/media/Wvo6vaUsQa3Di/giphy.gif

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