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Probably gonna destroy what's left of my ability to be taken remotely serious here but whatever.

Left out sources because I threw this together in half an hour and didn't bother putting in sources since I expected people to know where I'm getting my info from (that being the game and such).

Made this for a group with some casuals so added unnecessary explanations on things. Bear with some of it. I'm well aware there are plenty of holes in it, though it still should be considered

In the recent War for Iokath explanation for SWTOR, the God of War and Rage in the Zakuulan Pantheon, Tyth, made an appearance, and his first display of power was to casually destroy an entire Eternal Fleet Battlecruiser with a single Force attack of some kind. He then tanked the turbolaser fire of 13 Eternal Fleet Battlecruisers unscathed through defending himself with the Force. Note that he was also not "fully resurrected," as he put it, so we must infer that he was not at 100% strength when he destroyed the Battlecruiser. Also note that he IS the superweapon that Aries used in chapter 5 of KotET to wipe out all organic life on Iokath, so we must assume that he is capable of using such ability on his own as well.

The Outlander (canonically HoTlander) was not strong enough to beat Tyth alone, and required the assistance of seven unspecified allies (one theory is that it is all the main companions in the game, another is his allies were high-level masters within the Alliance, since it's canonically impossible for his allies to have been the other Protags like Nox and Barsen'thor, since their canonical fates are unknown). Note that Tyth was not only drained of Force reserves from having shielded himself from the onslaught of 13 Eternal Fleet Battlecruisers with the Force, but he was not "fully resurrected," implying he was not at full power from the start.

From these feats we can draw the conclusion that he is no weaker than RotS Sidious (in raw power only, not as a combatant. Sheev has shown to be faster and a wiser combatant, but in raw power alone Tyth has shown to be > RotS Palpatine), given that this iteration of Sheev has never shown the capability to outright destroy ~800m long (likely no less than 1,400m in total volume) starships with his Force abilities without telekinetically directing them, or decimate entire populations of planets with the Force.

But how does this relate to Valkorion?

Well, one of Valkorion's titles is Destroyer of Izax. Izax, in the Zakuulan Pantheon, is the strongest of the 6 Gods, and father of Tyth. What this insinuates is that, at some point, Valkorion killed Izax. When did he do this? Well, ~50 years after the Revan Novel, Vitiate's essence ventured into Wild Space searching for the fabled Eternal Fleet, and found the warrior Valkoion, who he used as his vessel in the region. When there, he encountered and killed Izax. What is most likely is that he found Valkorion, and in order to gain the loyalty of the people and diminish their worship of the Old Gods, he killed the head of the pantheon. This would mean that no more than 100 years after the Revan novel, Vitiate defeated an opponent stronger than RotS Sidious (possibly closer to RotJ Sidious than RotS). This means that Vitiate (with the same or greater level of power as compared to his novel iteration) was able to best someone > RotS Sidious. This, of course, happening before Vitiate began opening himself to a new philosophy on the Force, and having 200+ years to grow in power, making it likely that even before Ziost, Vitiate was approaching DE Sidious in power. For those that argue his showings in SWTOR don't support that, remember that he had his power dispersed throughout several bodies at any one time (Valkorion, his main Voice and possibly others, his Children, and, to a small degree, his Hand and Royal Guard), while also preparing for the Galaxy-Consuming ritual, meaning that all his displays of power in SWTOR were while he was hugely "weaker" than what he could bring to bear if all his power were consolidated in one body.

Next we consider the amount of power he gained from Ziost, and we can easily draw the conclusion that if he were comparable to DE Sidious before Ziost, then his power would have grown massively from not only consuming hundreds (if not thousands) of Jedi and Sith, on top of that millions of ordinary inhabitants and the Dark Side vergence on Ziost (which was one of the strongest DS nexus's in the galaxy at the time), meaning that he would have most certainly surpassed both DE Sidious and GM Luke, possibly even to a large degree. And with that, I leave you all to adjust your placement of Valkorion.

Where did Tyth tank turbolaser fire in the cutscene? From what I'm watching, he was shot to the ground. Unless you mean after that.

Though I dunno about 13 cruisers firing upon him, looks like only 1 did it.

https://youtu.be/rcOazvXj7_w?t=213

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Where did Tyth tank turbolaser fire in the cutscene? From what I'm watching, he was shot to the ground. Unless you mean after that.

https://youtu.be/rcOazvXj7_w?t=213 Sure it injured him, but given he actually survived it, and was still able to fight later on, I think that qualifies at tanking, maybe loosely, but it qualifies.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Sure it injured him, but given he actually survived it, and was still able to fight later on, I think that qualifies at tanking, maybe loosely, but it qualifies.

Fair enough I suppose. Though frankly, these expansions have gotten really, really dumb.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Fair enough I suppose. Though frankly, these expansions have gotten really, really dumb.

There is no actual evidence that Valkorion slew Izax...given that Izax is one of the raid bosses.

But it is stated, iirc, that he did manage to defeat all of the superweapons, which would include Izax. So either way, he's >Izax.

Also there's no Izax consol in the superweapon room, so we can infer that he actually did kill Izax and didn't just subdue him like he did the other gods

*waiting for Beni, Urs, Nova and co. to start dropping cancer slander and such*

Lusankya >>> 800m ships.

Well, I have to applaud you for the fact that this was probably the best attempt at a Valkorion > Sheev essay that has been recently done here. Not that I buy it, since it utterly ignored Sheev's accolades (I don't care how much you dislike them; they're canonical fact and dismissing them without real reason is indicative of bias (not saying you are but still)) and focused on what he hasn't done. This falls flat, because instead, you should be focusing on what he can't do instead of what he hasn't, since he is canonically > Valkorion, and saying that's false because Sheev hasn't done something Valkorion has is a fallacy and the equivalent of an auto-concession.

When making a direct comparison, even ignoring Sheev's accolades, RotS Sidious outclassed Valkorion by a hilarious amount in almost all areas (see my Palpatine essay for that). And it's not like he can't blow up a big ship; someone fodder to him in Starkiller did that.

However, I'd still like a source for the Eternal Fleet cruiser being as long as you claim it is.

Proof that Tyth is a Force user? But yeah his feats aren't that impressive.

Damaging a really big ship after a charged attack is honestly not that impressive. Vader should be capable of doing it, honestly.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, I have to applaud you for the fact that this was probably the best attempt at a Valkorion > Sheev essay that has been recently done here. Not that I buy it, since it utterly ignored Sheev's accolades (I don't care how much you dislike them; they're canonical fact and dismissing them without real reason is indicative of bias (not saying you are but still)) and focused on what he hasn't done. This falls flat, because instead, you should be focusing on what he can't do instead of what he hasn't, since he is canonically > Valkorion, and saying that's false because Sheev hasn't done something Valkorion has is a fallacy and the equivalent of an auto-concession.

When making a direct comparison, even ignoring Sheev's accolades, RotS Sidious outclassed Valkorion by a hilarious amount in almost all areas (see my Palpatine essay for that). And it's not like he can't blow up a big ship; someone fodder to him in Starkiller did that.

However, I'd still like a source for the Eternal Fleet cruiser being as long as you claim it is.
Palpatine's supremacy is implied in outdated sources mostly. Sorry but you don't gave a convincing argument either.

Your essay is filled with comical misinterpretations and overreachings.

Originally posted by MythLord
Damaging a really big ship after a charged attack is honestly not that impressive. Vader should be capable of doing it, honestly.
The magnitude of reaching for Darth Vader in this forum is comical.

I am sorry but Darth Vader is not capable of replicating Tyth's showings.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Proof that Tyth is a Force user? But yeah his feats aren't that impressive.
Right.

Tyth at full power;

1. Exterminated civilization of Iokath.
2. Can singlehandedly turn the tide of the war.

At limited power;

1. One-shotted a capital ship from the ground.
2. Tanked bombardment from capital ships after that.

But none of that is impressive.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Probably gonna destroy what's left of my ability to be taken remotely serious here but whatever.

Left out sources because I threw this together in half an hour and didn't bother putting in sources since I expected people to know where I'm getting my info from (that being the game and such).

Made this for a group with some casuals so added unnecessary explanations on things. Bear with some of it. I'm well aware there are plenty of holes in it, though it still should be considered

In the recent War for Iokath explanation for SWTOR, the God of War and Rage in the Zakuulan Pantheon, Tyth, made an appearance, and his first display of power was to casually destroy an entire Eternal Fleet Battlecruiser with a single Force attack of some kind. He then tanked the turbolaser fire of 13 Eternal Fleet Battlecruisers unscathed through defending himself with the Force. Note that he was also not "fully resurrected," as he put it, so we must infer that he was not at 100% strength when he destroyed the Battlecruiser. Also note that he IS the superweapon that Aries used in chapter 5 of KotET to wipe out all organic life on Iokath, so we must assume that he is capable of using such ability on his own as well.

The Outlander (canonically HoTlander) was not strong enough to beat Tyth alone, and required the assistance of seven unspecified allies (one theory is that it is all the main companions in the game, another is his allies were high-level masters within the Alliance, since it's canonically impossible for his allies to have been the other Protags like Nox and Barsen'thor, since their canonical fates are unknown). Note that Tyth was not only drained of Force reserves from having shielded himself from the onslaught of 13 Eternal Fleet Battlecruisers with the Force, but he was not "fully resurrected," implying he was not at full power from the start.

From these feats we can draw the conclusion that he is no weaker than RotS Sidious (in raw power only, not as a combatant. Sheev has shown to be faster and a wiser combatant, but in raw power alone Tyth has shown to be > RotS Palpatine), given that this iteration of Sheev has never shown the capability to outright destroy ~800m long (likely no less than 1,400m in total volume) starships with his Force abilities without telekinetically directing them, or decimate entire populations of planets with the Force.

But how does this relate to Valkorion?

Well, one of Valkorion's titles is Destroyer of Izax. Izax, in the Zakuulan Pantheon, is the strongest of the 6 Gods, and father of Tyth. What this insinuates is that, at some point, Valkorion killed Izax. When did he do this? Well, ~50 years after the Revan Novel, Vitiate's essence ventured into Wild Space searching for the fabled Eternal Fleet, and found the warrior Valkoion, who he used as his vessel in the region. When there, he encountered and killed Izax. What is most likely is that he found Valkorion, and in order to gain the loyalty of the people and diminish their worship of the Old Gods, he killed the head of the pantheon. This would mean that no more than 100 years after the Revan novel, Vitiate defeated an opponent stronger than RotS Sidious (possibly closer to RotJ Sidious than RotS). This means that Vitiate (with the same or greater level of power as compared to his novel iteration) was able to best someone > RotS Sidious. This, of course, happening before Vitiate began opening himself to a new philosophy on the Force, and having 200+ years to grow in power, making it likely that even before Ziost, Vitiate was approaching DE Sidious in power. For those that argue his showings in SWTOR don't support that, remember that he had his power dispersed throughout several bodies at any one time (Valkorion, his main Voice and possibly others, his Children, and, to a small degree, his Hand and Royal Guard), while also preparing for the Galaxy-Consuming ritual, meaning that all his displays of power in SWTOR were while he was hugely "weaker" than what he could bring to bear if all his power were consolidated in one body.

Next we consider the amount of power he gained from Ziost, and we can easily draw the conclusion that if he were comparable to DE Sidious before Ziost, then his power would have grown massively from not only consuming hundreds (if not thousands) of Jedi and Sith, on top of that millions of ordinary inhabitants and the Dark Side vergence on Ziost (which was one of the strongest DS nexus's in the galaxy at the time), meaning that he would have most certainly surpassed both DE Sidious and GM Luke, possibly even to a large degree. And with that, I leave you all to adjust your placement of Valkorion.
You have granted too much concession to PT brigade here.

I would like to see Palpatine or even Luke Skywalker enduring capital bombardment.

Do also keep in mind that the Outlander is greater than any incarnation of Revan and a match for Vaylin (unchained). And that kind of power was not enough to defeat Tyth in the battlefield.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The magnitude of reaching for Darth Vader in this forum is comical.

I am sorry but Darth Vader is not capable of replicating Tyth's showings.

No need to apologize, honey. Nobody chooses freely to be autistic.

Vader can replicate a lot of Tyth's showings.

Originally posted by MythLord
No need to apologize, honey. Nobody chooses freely to be autistic.

Vader can replicate a lot of Tyth's showings.
Provide evidence.

The Outlander could not stop Tyth singlehandedly. This should be sufficient hint for any sane individual here.

By virtue of power-scaling alone, Tyth murders Darth Vader

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right.

Tyth at full power;

1. Exterminated civilization of Iokath.
2. Can singlehandedly turn the tide of the war.

At limited power;

1. One-shotted a capital ship from the ground.
2. Tanked bombardment from capital ships after that.

But none of that is impressive. Not in comparison to Palpatine.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not in comparison to Palpatine.
Via Force Storm only.

Tyth is conventionally above Palpatine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Provide evidence.

I'd first like to see what makes you think Tyth murders Vader.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Outlander could not stop Tyth singlehandedly. This should be sufficient hint for any sane individual here.

So somebody inferior to Vader couldn't stop Tyth? What does that even prove?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By virtue of power-scaling alone, Tyth murders Darth Vader

Not at all, lol. What kind of powerscaling does Tyth even have other than "hurr, better then Outlander!"?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine's supremacy is implied in outdated sources mostly. Sorry but you don't gave a convincing argument either.

Your essay is filled with comical misinterpretations and overreachings.

Sources from 2014 and 2015 aren't outdated, lmao. But I imagine this'll fall on deaf ears.

Anyway, where is the response to mah essay? I imagine it'll be lot more comical than the essay itself

Palpatine can drain twenty billion individuals, mentally subjugate as many people, and bury 19km-long capital ships, to say nothing of his ability to devastate entire fleets or worlds with his Wormholes.

None of that is beyond Palpatine in the slightest.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'd first like to see what makes you think Tyth murders Vader.



So somebody inferior to Vader couldn't stop Tyth? What does that even prove?



Not at all, lol. What kind of powerscaling does Tyth even have other than "hurr, better then Outlander!"?
Show me evidence of Darth Vader singlehandily exterminating an advanced civilization, one-shotting capital ships, tanking capital bombardment and hype of turning the tide of galactic war singlehandedly. Sorry but Darth Vader does not comes close.

Someboy who is above all incarnations of Revan and a match for Vaylin (unchained) is inferior to Darth Vader? You can't be this stupid.

See above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine can drain twenty billion individuals, mentally subjugate as many people, and bury 19km-long capital ships, to say nothing of his ability to devastate entire fleets or worlds with his Wormholes.

None of that is beyond Palpatine in the slightest.
Tyth is not a Force-user so we cannot objectively compare Tyth to Palpatine like that.

No matter how capable Palpatine had been with Force abilities, you cannot overlook his conventional limitations. He won't make it out alive from a capital bombardment for example. Don't be foolish.

Tyth had conventional abilities to exterminate an incredibly advanced civilization. This is incredible.

And yet you're comparing Tyth's endurance capabilities to Palpatine's despite them existing in entirely different metrics, kek.

Izak is a well build droid, great, Palpatine should still be able to absorb capital ship fire with a Force barrier and wreck Izak with his lightning. And in terms of overall capabilities, he possesses powers that Izak isn't even capable of and could ruin him in a dozen different ways.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tyth is not a Force-user so we cannot objectively compare Tyth to Palpatine like that.

No matter how capable Palpatine had been with Force abilities, you cannot overlook his conventional limitations. He won't make it out alive from a capital bombardment for example. Don't be foolish.

As a child, Zannah was able to erect Barriers that shielded her against the Thought Bomb. Palpatine is factually close to a millennium's worth superior to her by TPM alone, before undergoing several drastic increases in power through to DE. It's hardly a foolish notion in the slightest. In fact, it's a perfectly reasonable claim.

I'll remind you as well of Kressh's Gauntlet, which allowed someone who was merely holding it (not even wearing it) to survive orbital bombardment.

Besides, I hope you don't need me to tell you of the double standards in excusing unfavourable comparisons to Tyth on the basis of not being a Force user, but readily making comparisons to Palpatine whenever you consider it a favourable comparison. Unless I'm mistaken, Tyth is a super-droid, and Palpatine is a human augmented by the Force. You seem to want to compare their durability in "conventional" manners? lol

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And yet you're comparing Tyth's endurance capabilities to Palpatine's despite them existing in entirely different metrics, kek.

Izak is a well build droid, great, Palpatine should still be able to absorb capital ship fire with a Force barrier and wreck Izak with his lightning. And in terms of overall capabilities, he possesses powers that Izak isn't even capable of and could ruin him in a dozen different ways.
I don't want to.

Classic overrreaching there. Provide evidence of Palpatine tanking capital bombardment (not just words).

These droids might be invincible to a wide range of Force powers. They are literally superweapons. Try better.

Vader also tanked an exploding Sith superweapon, and Sheev would wreck him.

For that matter, a mere 22BBY Anakin could block the powers of the Dark Reaper (which could drain entire armies) for a time. And even the likes of Dooku were far above Anakin then, to say nothing of the likes of Palpatine who could place Dooku in a telekinetic stranglehold holographically. Then we factor in Palpatine's enormous growths up to DE, and it's perfectly reasonable for his powers to be capable of allowing him to survive orbital bombardment.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't want to.

Classic overrreaching there. Provide evidence of Palpatine tanking capital bombardment (not just words).

These droids might be invincible to a wide range of Force powers. They are literally superweapons. Try better. Izak hasn't done anything to suggest he could withstand Palpatine's powers.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Izak hasn't done anything to suggest he could withstand Palpatine's powers.


These superweapons can exterminate advanced civilizations but they cannot kill Palpatine. Keep overreaching.

The Malachor superweapon exterminated Force-wielding armies, but Vader survived it. The Emperor is above that.

Not to mention that planet-wiping powers are well within the domain of TPM Palpatine alone, never mind DE Palpatine. Logically, he can protect himself from powers of that calibre also.

And again, Zannah as a child could erect Barriers that kept her safe from the Thought Bomb, which would easily replicate Tyth's feat of eradicating a civilization. Palpatine is a millennium's worth of advancements in power over her in her prime by TPM alone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Malachor superweapon exterminated Force-wielding armies, but Vader survived it. Not to mention that planet-wiping powers are within the domain of TPM Palpatine alone, never mind DE Palpatine. Logically, he can protect himself from powers of that calibre also.
They are not the same devices. Darth Vader enduring X under a set of circumstances does not translate to enduring Y. I don't buy this black and white nonsense.

I am coming towards the Darth Zannah part.

Originally posted by SunRazer


For that matter, a mere 22BBY Anakin could block the powers of the Dark Reaper (which could drain entire armies) for a time. And even the likes of Dooku were far above Anakin then, to say nothing of the likes of Palpatine who could place Dooku in a telekinetic stranglehold holographically. Then we factor in Palpatine's enormous growths up to DE, and it's perfectly reasonable for his powers to be capable of allowing him to survive orbital bombardment. Did Anakin not also shield a settlement against a radioactive storm?

But yeah this isn't really relevant as Izak achieved this through his armouring, it has no bearing on the actual power he possesses.

There were no circumstances; at least none that wouldn't be applicable here, lol.

More to the point, the idea of this thread is not that Valkorion has an identical power to Tyth, but that he can produce effects of the sort. Hence, Vader being able to resist effects of the sort is adequate, whether it's X or Y or Z.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


These superweapons can exterminate advanced civilizations but they cannot kill Palpatine. Keep overreaching. What false equivalence is this? The ability to wreck civilisations doesn't mean he can kill Sheev.

Regardless you didn't respond to my point, there is no evidence that Izak can withstand Palpatine's powers.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There were no circumstances; at least none that wouldn't be applicable here, lol.

More to the point, the idea of this thread is not that Valkorion has an identical power to Tyth, but that he can produce effects of the sort. Hence, Vader being able to resist effects of the sort is adequate, whether it's X or Y or Z.
Yet Darth Vader cannot tank a lightsaber. Your overreaching is as desperate as it is amusing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yet Darth Vader cannot tank a lightsaber. Your overreaching is as desperate as it is amusing.

Vader deflects a lightsaber barehanded in Dark Lord. Citing him being hit without his defenses up is obvious; not even Valkorion could tank a lightsaber as we see with the Outlander's blade running through him. Although Vader has been able to endure repeated lightsaber blows without succumbing, which is more than I can say for Valkorion.

And get this: Valkorion dies to mere blaster shots if you're a non-Force using class. And Vader has indeed tanked blaster fire and near-enough shrugged it off. Palaptine has shrugged it off completely. So again, where are you heading with the comparisons?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What false equivalence is this? The ability to wreck civilisations doesn't mean he can kill Sheev.

Regardless you didn't respond to my point, there is no evidence that Izak can withstand Palpatine's powers.
You want me to buy your argument that Palpatine has solution for everything, that he is invincible?

Izaz > Tyth. Also regarded as world devourer. Keep trying

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You want me to buy your argument that Palpatine has solution for everything, that he is invincible?

Izaz > Tyth.

That wouldn't be unfair given that you thought as much of Valkorion not too long ago.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yet Darth Vader cannot tank a lightsaber. Your overreaching is as desperate as it is amusing.

Somebody hasn't seen ESB.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader deflects a lightsaber barehanded in Dark Lord. Citing him being hit without his defenses up is obvious; not even Valkorion could tank a lightsaber as we see with the Outlander's blade running through him. Although Vader has been able to endure repeated lightsaber blows without succumbing, which is more than I can say for Valkorion.

And get this: Valkorion dies to mere blaster shots if you're a non-Force using class. And Vader has indeed tanked blaster fire and near-enough shrugged it off. Palaptine has shrugged it off completely. So again, where are you heading with the comparisons?
Point is Force shield. It does not protects you from every kind of external threat. Force-users have developed different types of defenses for different types of threats.

Darth Vader endured several lightsaber blows due to his body armor. Darth Malgus has also endured several lightsaber blows FYI.

Force shield does not stops a blasterbolt.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You want me to buy your argument that Palpatine has solution for everything, that he is invincible?

Izaz > Tyth. Also regarded as world devourer. Keep trying I never said that? On the other hand you want me to buy that one has to be invincible to survive Tyth?

My bad meant Tyth, not that he would wreck Izak too.

So again, what evidence is there that he'd withstand his powers?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force shield does not stops a blasterbolt. ??

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is Force shield. It does not protects you from every kind of external threat. Force-users have developed different types of defenses for different types of threats.

Darth Vader endured several lightsaber blows due to his body armor. Darth Malgus has also endured several lightsaber blows FYI.

Force shield does not stops a blasterbolt.

You seem unhinged. Regardless, even without Force shields, Vader and Palpatine have tanked blaster bolts. Whereas Valkorion died to one. Checkmate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That wouldn't be unfair given that you thought as much of Valkorion not too long ago.
We don't know what kind of technique/power Valkorion applied to destroy that kind of weapon. Valkorion himself remarked that no kind of superweapon can overcome him. We just have knowledge that his words carry weight in this regard.

Every character has his share of strengths and weaknesses. You cannot just transfer every aspect of Valkorion to Palpatine without any logical basis.

If Palpatine was that powerful, why he needed a Death Star to terrorize people? Who couldn't he set an example like Ziost?

You guys tend to pick and choose best details of a character, mash them and construct a superficial portrayal of a character here. Totally ignoring weaknesses and context in the process. This is not a sound judgement.

Superweapons can't kill Valk, but a blaster can.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We don't know what kind of technique/power Valkorion applied to destroy that kind of weapon. Valkorion himself remarked that no kind of superweapon can overcome him. We just have knowledge that his words carry weight in this regard.

Every character has his share of strengths and weaknesses. You cannot just transfer every aspect of Valkorion to Palpatine without any logical basis.

If Palpatine was that powerful, why he needed a Death Star to terrorize people? Who couldn't set an example like Ziost?

Right, but I recall in other threads that you believed Valkorion had near-enough no weaknesses. Or have you backtracked on that?

Valkorion's claims could just mean that even if a superweapon destroys his physical form, his spirit would persist. In no way does that mean his physical form would emerge unscathed or anything of the sort. You want proof? His death from a blaster shot in KotFE. While Palpatine shrugs off being hit by a blaster bolt. That's all assuming that Valkorion's claim is credible, which we have no reason to believe. Dooku claimed that he was more powerful than any Jedi — right before he failed to hurt Yoda and fled the battle. Taking a dark sider's claims of personal power at face value is a big no-no.

But Palpatine was that powerful. Have you ever read DE? Palpatine didn't need the Death Stars; Tarkin and others did. Palpatine simply awarded them such playthings. I mean, by that metric, why did Valkorion need the Eternal Fleet or the army or anything at all?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Superweapons can't kill Valk, but a blaster can.
Context and conventional limitations should not be overlooked.

Some spirits mortally wounded Palpatine on Korriban.

A generator - thrown at Darth Vader - badly injured him.

Valkorion was killed by a blaster and trapped in a holocron, his words are 100% bullshit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some spirits mortally wounded Palpatine on Korriban.

That never happened. If you're referring to the incident in BoS, you don't know how long ago it was, lol. It could've been him in his early years of training. Not that mortal wounds were mentioned anywhere.

In DE, Palpatine was staving off ancient Sith spirits in his genetically sabotaged body. Spirits were no threat to him then.

Shall we get back on topic tho? Scenario: Tyth approaches Palpatine and Sheev throws a Force storm at him, what will Tyth do? Make a wish?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, but I recall in other threads that you believed Valkorion had near-enough no weaknesses. Or have you backtracked on that?

Valkorion's claims could just mean that even if a superweapon destroys his physical form, his spirit would persist. In no way does that mean his physical form would emerge unscathed or anything of the sort. You want proof? His death from a blaster shot in KotFE. While Palpatine shrugs off being hit by a blaster bolt. That's all assuming that Valkorion's claim is credible, which we have no reason to believe. Dooku claimed that he was more powerful than any Jedi — right before he failed to hurt Yoda and fled the battle. Taking a dark sider's claims of personal power at face value is a big no-no.

But Palpatine was that powerful. Have you ever read DE? Palpatine didn't need the Death Stars; Tarkin and others did. Palpatine simply awarded them such playthings. I mean, by that metric, why did Valkorion need the Eternal Fleet or the army or anything at all?
Every character has weaknesses/conventional limitations. Valkorion addressed this issue by discovering ways to cheat death.

Valid point. He may also have the ability to infilitrate a target and sabotage it from within. His incredible conventional defenses not withstanding. He might have deflected energy beams of Izax back towards it. Who knows?

Palpatine's robes might have offered protection? Ever thought like this?

Valkorion is noted for destroying Izax. Entire Empire of Zakuul was aware. We have a tangible showing here.

Palpatine spent 5 years on Byss, consolidating his powers before making his move. I am not questioning his wisdom to create armies. However, if you can discipline the rebels singlehandedly, you set an example. You don't just rely on conventional stuff to do your bidding.

Point is that their might be realistic limitations to what Palpatine can achieve on the ground. He conjured a Force Storm to wipe out a fleet but it was all in space. However, it may not be practical for him to conjure that kind of power in the battlefield where he is present. That power might also be slow to destroy a world. Death Star could eliminate a planet with a single shot.

Valkorion's Consume Storm was really practical for the battlefield on the otherhand. It swiftly exterminated everybody on the planet. He wasn't physically present there either.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That never happened. If you're referring to the incident in BoS, you don't know how long ago it was, lol. It could've been him in his early years of training. Not that mortal wounds were mentioned anywhere.

In DE, Palpatine was staving off ancient Sith spirits in his genetically sabotaged body. Spirits were no threat to him then.
Palpatine confirmed it himself. He was revived in a bacta tank after that experience. It happened at some point after Episode 3.

Please don't lie.

Which incident are you even talking about? Show me the scans/quotes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine's robes might have offered protection? Ever thought like this?

S_W_LeGenDMe makes a good point about Force Storms, in that I don't believe we can be very sure how combat applicable they are. And it's worth pointing out others, such as Freedon Nadd, could also use them, so it's hard to say how much of a reflection of power being able to use them even is, especially when you look at Sidious's own words when he describes how he summons them.

Nothing else Sidious has done is that impressive in the grand scheme of things imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion was killed by a blaster and trapped in a holocron, his words are 100% bullshit.
Nonsense.

Valkorion was stabbed from behind while his attention was diverted towards the Outlander.

He also destroyed that holocron. At this point, he stated that bring anything to the table - a holocron; a superweapon - it won't be enough.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Every character has weaknesses/conventional limitations. Valkorion addressed this issue by discovering ways to cheat death.

Valid point. He may also have the ability to infilitrate a target and sabotage it from within. His incredible conventional defenses not withstanding. He might have deflected energy beams of Izax back towards it. Who knows?

Palpatine's robes might have offered protection? Ever thought like this?

Valkorion is noted for destroying Izax. Entire Empire of Zakuul was aware. We have a tangible showing here.

Palpatine spent 5 years on Byss, consolidating his powers before making his move. I am not questioning his wisdom to create armies. However, if you can discipline the rebels singlehandedly, you set an example. You don't just rely on conventional stuff to do your bidding.

Point is that their might be realistic limitations to what Palpatine can achieve on the ground. He conjured a Force Storm to wipe out a fleet. However, it may not be practical for him to conjure that power on the ground where he is present. It might also take time to destroy a world.

Valkorion's Consume Storm was really practical for the battlefield on the otherhand. It swiftly exterminated everybody on the planet.

The bias cannot be more real. Valkorion can deflect superweapon beams back at themselves but Palpatine can't even tank a blaster bolt without it being his cloak that's protecting him.

**** off, will you?

Nadd can use Force storms? Source?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
S_W_LeGenDMe makes a good point about Force Storms, such as Freedon Nadd, could also use them

Eh? When has he ever?

It's that entry in the TotJ sourcebook again.

I thought this was common knowledge?

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Some robes offer protection against various external threats. It doesn't have to be a heavy (bulky) body armor. Star Wars, my friend.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The bias cannot be more real. Valkorion can deflect superweapon beams back at themselves but Palpatine can't even tank a blaster bolt without it being his cloak that's protecting him.

**** off, will you?
Please don't talk about bias after the kind of arguments you put forth.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some robes offer protection against various external threats. It doesn't have to be a heavy (bulky) body armor. Star Wars, my friend. Are you trolling or actually this much of a clown?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
I thought this was common knowledge? Sounds like fanon, tbh.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
I thought this was common knowledge?

Don't follow Force Users(the more common ones talked about for the most part anyway), find it a waste of time tbh.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Nothing else Sidious has done is that impressive in the grand scheme of things imo.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641234.html

Educate yourself on Sheev before making such ridiculous claims.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sounds like fanon, tbh.

Eh, I looked through the Companion. Says Nadd does know all the Force Powers listed in the book, which does include Force Storms.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nadd can use Force storms? Source?

It comes from the TotJ companion claiming Nadd has knowledge of every ability in the book, which includes Force Storms.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Where did Tyth tank turbolaser fire in the cutscene? From what I'm watching, he was shot to the ground. Unless you mean after that.

Though I dunno about 13 cruisers firing upon him, looks like only 1 did it.

https://youtu.be/rcOazvXj7_w?t=213
Actually, it was the entire Eternal Fleet. The cutscene doesn't visibly show it, but the Hero orders his entire fleet to Iokath, and then later orders them to fire on Tyth.

Tyth surviving bombardment from the largest fleet in history to that time is ****ing insane.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please don't talk about bias after the kind of arguments you put forth.

Concession accepted.

No, I can talk. You're unwilling to let Palpatine one-up Valkorion on anything. If he tanks the blaster bolt it's the cloak protecting him.

Now do you have any evidence for that or is this more speculation that you want me to accept for the sake of it?

Let me tell you something - right now, you're letting me down harder than Rapunzel lets down her ****ing hair. Stop speculating, and get a grip on some legitimate arguments. And where's the quote/scan for Palpatine being in bacta post-RotS for a Sith spirit attack?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Eh, I looked through the Companion. Says Nadd does know all the Force Powers listed in the book, which does include Force Storms. Ah fair enough.

Originally posted by darthbane77
But it is stated, iirc, that he did manage to defeat all of the superweapons, which would include Izax. So either way, he's >Izax.

Where is that stated?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Are you trolling or actually this much of a clown?
Robes can be reinforced with lightweight armored plates. Try better.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_armor

Proof that Palpatine wore that armor, though... Also, you do realize said armor is still capable of being pierced by blaster bolts, right?

How much of a thick-headed reprobate can you be?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Robes can be reinforced with lightweight armored plates. Try better.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_armor

You're not catching on, are you? The fact that robes can be reinforced with lightweight armored plates means nothing. Prove that Sidious' cloak is factually reinforced by armouring, or else you're speculating aimlessly.

Sometimes I feel like you're just trying to get a reaction out of us...

Anyways, I'm off to bed now. I'm waiting on proof that Palpatine's cloak is armoured (and proof that said armour can absorb blaster bolts) as well as proof of Palpatine recovering in bacta for a post-RotS Sith spirit attack (bacta for spiritual attacks definitely sounds suspicious).

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I can talk. You're unwilling to let Palpatine one-up Valkorion on anything. If he tanks the blaster bolt it's the cloak protecting him.
Valkorion better than Palpatine in some areas. I am sorry if this fact hurts your feelings but you don't have the moral stand to criticize me for pointing out the obvious.

I am not trying to one-up Valkorion due to my bias; my point is that Valkorion and Palpatine are different characters with varied abilities. Your (black and white) comparisons do not hold up.

Yes! Robes can be reinforced with lightweight armor plates. You claim to have played SWTOR and you don't know this?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Now do you have any evidence for that or is this more speculation that you want me to accept for the sake of it?

Let me tell you something - right now, you're letting me down harder than Rapunzel lets down her ****ing hair. Stop speculating, and get a grip on some legitimate arguments. And where's the quote/scan for Palpatine being in bacta post-RotS for a Sith spirit attack?
"The spirits of Korriban are quite real. Indeed, on one occasion they nearly killed me." (Palpatine)

There is a source that reveals that Palpatine was rescued and recovered in a Bacta Tank. Somebody removed this information from Palpatine's main article in Wookieepedia.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Robes can be reinforced with lightweight armored plates. Try better.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_armor Palpatines robes are nothing but standard zeyd cloth you f*cking moron.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're not catching on, are you? The fact that robes can be reinforced with lightweight armored plates means nothing. Prove that Sidious' cloak is factually reinforced by armouring, or else you're speculating aimlessly.
I stated that his robes could be, that have you ever thought it this way?

You claimed that Palpatine tanked blasterbolts without breaking a sweat. You prove that this was not due to armored platings beneath the clothing.

"Prove unicorns exist!!11!!"

I didn't think this level of stupidity was possible.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Palpatines robes are nothing but standard zeyd cloth you f*cking moron.
Armored plates are worn beneath the robes, you ****ing moron.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Prove unicorns exist!!11!!"

I didn't think this level of stupidity was possible.
It is useless to argue with a dickhead.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Armored plates are worn beneath the robes, you ****ing moron. No he doesn't wear any armoured plates, you pulled that out of your ass in desperation. haermm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No he doesn't wear any armoured plates, you pulled that out of your ass in desperation. haermm
And how did you came to this conclusion? Fighting an assumption with assumption here?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You prove that this was not due to armored platings beneath the clothing.

That's now how debate works fyi

Legend, you have been mocked, insulted, laughed at, made fun of, turned into memes etc. by basically everyone here for a decade now.

I'm not trying to be insulting or condescending here, but I'm honestly curious: do you genuinely believe that you are right on everything, and everyone else (possibly over a hundred different users) is either wrong, biased, or trolling when they call you out on your BS and disagree with you on things. Like, do you actually believe that everyone else is being illogical and you are the only sane being here?

To answer the thread: what's the evidence that puts Valkorion above the Six Gods other than fancy legends?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how did you came to this conclusion? Fighting an assumption with assumption here? On the basis that there is zero evidence to support the conclusion, or would you have me entertain the idea that Jar Jar is in fact a Sith Lord?

Originally posted by Azronger
Legend, you have been mocked, insulted, laughed at, made fun of, turned into memes etc. by basically everyone here for a decade now.

I'm not trying to be insulting or condescending here, but I'm honestly curious: do you genuinely believe that you are right on everything, and everyone else (possibly over a hundred different users) is either wrong, biased, or trolling when they call you out on your BS and disagree with you on things. Like, do you actually believe that everyone else is being illogical and you are the only sane being here?
Some forum clowns or a bunch of lowlifes resort to such tactics when they run out of sound arguments actually. Any reasonable person will debunk an argument with proper evidence, if he notices anything wrong with it. These clowns, on the other hand, don't concentrate on the CONTEXT of my statements; their tactic is to gang-up on me and taunt me so that I shall give up. They react in this manner when their hypocrisy is exposed, just like in this thread.

PT brigade clowns pick and choose the most visually spectacular showings of a character from all known sources, mash them, and project a superficial image of that character afterwards. This is why this argument never ends.

I have acknowledged points and conceded to arguments in various discussions when I found them to be sound. You will notice an example right in this thread.

I have my share of debates on real-life subjects and you can look at them to judge me, if you think I am heavily biased or don't think objectively. I have a good standing in practical world and this all that matters to me.

Whatever the "PT brigade" might be guilty of, certainly fabricating context is not one of them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Whatever the "PT brigade" might be guilty of, certainly fabricating context is not one of them.
Here:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine's robes might have offered protection? Ever thought like this?

You call that fabrication?

I am trying to convey a point here! You obviously didn't see it. You rather chose to use this 'supposition' against me, to attack me. You moron.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some forum clowns or a bunch of lowlifes resort to such tactics when they run out of sound arguments actually. Any reasonable person will debunk an argument with proper evidence, if he notices anything wrong with it. These clowns, on the other hand, don't concentrate on the CONTEXT of my statements; their tactic is to gang-up on me and taunt me so that I shall give up. They react in this manner when their hypocrisy is exposed, just like in this thread.

PT brigade clowns pick and choose the most visually spectacular showings of a character from all known sources, mash them, and project a superficial image of that character afterwards. This is why this argument never ends.

I have acknowledged points and conceded to arguments in various discussions when I found them to be sound. You will notice an example right in this thread.

I have my share of debates on real-life subjects and you can look at them to judge me, if you think I am heavily biased or don't think objectively. I have a good standing in practical world and this all that matters to me.

So it's a yes, then? You actually believe every single PT person to ever have debated you and given up is biased and stupid, and that you are the smartest person on these boards?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here:



You call that fabrication?

I am trying to convey a point here! You obviously didn't see it. You rather chose to use this 'supposition' against me, to attack me. You moron. Yeah, without any proof, its called making shit up. I suggest you stop before further credibility is lost.

lmfao

Deflecting/tanking blaster bolts is literally some Vader-tier shit; saying that Sheev is incapable of such a feat without external aid (such as his "armor" is stupidity in its purest form.

Originally posted by Azronger
So it's a yes, then? You actually believe every single PT person to ever have debated you and given up is biased and stupid, and that you are the smartest person on these boards?
Do you think that you have the moral authority to judge me in these matters?

They haven't given up due to my bias; they know that my arguments tend to carry some weight and their superficial bullshit won't pass through unquestioned. They use the bias tag to silence me and/or use it as an excuse to derail the discussion when they find themselves on the receiving end. They cannot gracefully concede to points, can they?

Go through the exchange of arguments between me and SunRazer in this thread and you will notice a post from him where he pulled the bias card against me to derail a seemingly reasonable discussion.

I have a question for you! Why do you think that I am supposed to be wrong about everything? Tell me.

I can pinpoint scores of suppositions that I got right.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, without any proof, its called making shit up. I suggest you stop before further credibility is lost.
It was a supposition, you lowlife dickhead.

My point is that you should exercise some critical judgment for Palpatine as well, don't just reserve it for Valkorion (and TOR era characters in general).

I never ruled out the possibility of Palpatine countering blasterbolts with Force abilities.

But what can you expect from a college dropout who takes a supposition at face value and then uses it as a pretext to attack the person who raised it in counter-response. Can't have a discussion like a gentleman.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that you have the moral authority to judge me in these matters?

They haven't given up due to my bias; they know that my arguments tend to carry some weight and their superficial bullshit won't pass through unquestioned. They use the bias tag to silence me and/or use it as an excuse to derail the discussion when they find themselves on the receiving end. They cannot gracefully concede to points, can they?

Go through the exchange of arguments between me and SunRazer in this thread and you will notice a post from him where he pulled the bias card against me to derail a seemingly reasonable discussion.

I have a question for you! Why do you think that I am supposed to be wrong about everything? Tell me.

I can pinpoint scores of suppositions that I got right.

Given how defensive you got, and the fact that you think they were on the receiving end when debating you, then I'll take that as a yes.

But yes, I do think you are wrong most of the time, and that you are quite possibly the biggest idiot I have ever talked to.

Originally posted by Azronger
Given how defensive you got, and the fact that you think they were on the receiving end when debating you, then I'll take that as a yes.
Given the kind of nonsense you spew around and my attempts to reason with you, your judgement carries ZERO weight.

Shall I provide examples?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a supposition, you lowlife dickhead.

My point is that you should exercise some critical judgment for Palpatine as well, don't just reserve it for Valkorion (and TOR era characters in general).

I never ruled out the possibility of Palpatine countering blasterbolts with Force abilities.

But what can you expect from a college dropout who takes a supposition at face value and then uses it as a pretext to attack the person who raised it in counter-response. Can't have a discussion like a gentleman. Dry those tears LeG, you tried to use a baseless supposition with a net worth equal to your IQ as an argument, and were called out on your rookie error. My advice: go back to Debating 101, having deactivated your account first.

p.s. A gentleman takes out the trash, just doing my chivalric duty.

^^^

I am not interested in a needless mudslinging with you. If you have anything concrete to share, please do. Otherwise, don't bother.

an hero

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You call that fabrication?

Yes.

Prove Sidious wore armor under his zeyd-cloth. Then we'll talk.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As a child, Zannah was able to erect Barriers that shielded her against the Thought Bomb. Palpatine is factually close to a millennium's worth superior to her by TPM alone, before undergoing several drastic increases in power through to DE. It's hardly a foolish notion in the slightest. In fact, it's a perfectly reasonable claim.

I'll remind you as well of Kressh's Gauntlet, which allowed someone who was merely holding it (not even wearing it) to survive orbital bombardment.

Besides, I hope you don't need me to tell you of the double standards in excusing unfavourable comparisons to Tyth on the basis of not being a Force user, but readily making comparisons to Palpatine whenever you consider it a favourable comparison. Unless I'm mistaken, Tyth is a super-droid, and Palpatine is a human augmented by the Force. You seem to want to compare their durability in "conventional" manners? lol
Oh dear.

Darth Zannah did not tank Thought Bomb. She wasn't caught in its blast. You cannot apply scaling here.

An artifact that is stated to make its wielder invincible?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Yes.

Prove Sidious wore armor under his zeyd-cloth. Then we'll talk.
I don't have to prove a supposition. You have any information that dismiss this possibility?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader also tanked an exploding Sith superweapon, and Sheev would wreck him.
Not the superweapon itself. He made through a conventional explosion.

Nope the superweapon exploded, not much else there to explode.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope the superweapon exploded conventionally, not like literally.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't have to prove a supposition.


You do if you want ppl to take your argument seriously.

Originally posted by Geistalt
You do if you want ppl to take your argument seriously.
If I had presented my statement like a fact, than I had to. A supposition is not confirmation.

There's no real point for Sidious to wear armor. Armor in general for the SWU, isn't really worn for blaster protection anyway, minus specifically designed armor.

TBH Darth Vader going by several showings can be able to replicate Tiths feats, such as withstanding orbital bombardment. He did withstand Starkillers amped Force Lightning which was capable of charging a cannon to the point it split a star destroyer in half. He also smashed apart Aluminized densecris, a material that is supposed to be unbreakable according to Imperial Scientists, which would at least make it tougher than Phrik and durasteel alloys, material strong enough to withstand direct hits from turbolaser blasts and even the explosion of a planet in the case with Phrik.

Originally posted by The Merchant
TBH Darth Vader going by several showings can be able to replicate Tiths feats, such as withstanding orbital bombardment. He did withstand Starkillers amped Force Lightning which was capable of charging a cannon to the point it split a star destroyer in half. He also smashed apart Aluminized densecris, a material that is supposed to be unbreakable according to Imperial Scientists, which would at least make it tougher than Phrik and durasteel alloys, material strong enough to withstand direct hits from turbolaser blasts and even the explosion of a planet in the case with Phrik.

Eh I wouldn't put too much hand into Vader's destruction of that mirror, partly because there isn't anything prior to actually claim that it is indestructible, just that it supposedly was and that's it's only appearance.

That also said, don't really recall reading that scientists actually commented on the material.

Any rate, Phrik and the like can be broken, it's just not an immediate thing and requires great power and they have actual showings compared to the single mirror instance, which make them better.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion better than Palpatine in some areas. I am sorry if this fact hurts your feelings but you don't have the moral stand to criticize me for pointing out the obvious.

I am not trying to one-up Valkorion due to my bias; my point is that Valkorion and Palpatine are different characters with varied abilities. Your (black and white) comparisons do not hold up.

Yes! Robes can be reinforced with lightweight armor plates. You claim to have played SWTOR and you don't know this?

"The spirits of Korriban are quite real. Indeed, on one occasion they nearly killed me." (Palpatine)

There is a source that reveals that Palpatine was rescued and recovered in a Bacta Tank. Somebody removed this information from Palpatine's main article in Wookieepedia.

1. Valkorion being better than Palpatine in some areas doesn't mean he has to be better in virtually everything as you try to make him out to be. You can't even accept the Emperor being more durable than Valkorion. Pathetic.

2. First, blaster bolts can penetrate that level of armouring. Secondly, again, just because they can put the armour inside the clothing doesn't mean that Palpatine did. Prove that Palpatine did, or it's an invalid point. You can't ask me to prove a negative by asking me to prove that Palpatine didn't. Nobody ever proves a negative in debates; if you propose something, the burden of proof is on you.

3. If it's removed from Wookieepedia, that's probably because it was unsourced and determined to be made up. Indeed, I have read pretty much all of Palpatine's sources and I don't recall that anyway. Bacta doesn't heal spiritual wounds either, which only makes it more suspicious.

Regardless, the comment in BoS is ambiguous (nearly killing someone can mean a near-miss, not inflicting mortal injuries) and it could've taken place early on in Palpatine's apprenticeship, or some other such time. We don't know for sure.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh dear.

Darth Zannah did not tank Thought Bomb. She wasn't caught in its blast. You cannot apply scaling here.

An artifact that is stated to make its wielder invincible?

Sorry, the other ritual they did - the Storm one.

So this is KMC?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
So this is KMC? Yep, the pure cancerfest from where all SW fanbase cancer spreads.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Yep, the pure cancerfest from where all SW fanbase cancer spreads.

This website's format is cancer too.

Originally posted by The Merchant
TBH Darth Vader going by several showings can be able to replicate Tiths feats, such as withstanding orbital bombardment. He did withstand Starkillers amped Force Lightning which was capable of charging a cannon to the point it split a star destroyer in half. He also smashed apart Aluminized densecris, a material that is supposed to be unbreakable according to Imperial Scientists, which would at least make it tougher than Phrik and durasteel alloys, material strong enough to withstand direct hits from turbolaser blasts and even the explosion of a planet in the case with Phrik.
No, he cannot. Show me an example of any Force-user withstanding Turbolaser bombardment with purely Force-based defenses. I don't recall any application that guarantees protection against a sustained barrage of Turbolasers. If a lightsaber is searing through Force shield, a Turbolaser is far more potent in comparison. To give you an idea, a single Turbolaser shot on the bridge knocked Darth Revan comatose, damaging his brain. And Revan was prepared for confrontation during this moment, his defenses should be up.

That Starkiller's feat is a useless analogy. Starkiller's Force lightning isn't that potent. It just activated that device which in turn split the capital ship. This is like he activated a nuke and its subsequent explosion did the rest.

Barsen'thor plowed through virtually indestructible stuff (of Rakatan origin) and he cannot hope to contend with Tyth on his own. So examples like that do not hold.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Valkorion being better than Palpatine in some areas doesn't mean he has to be better in virtually everything as you try to make him out to be. You can't even accept the Emperor being more durable than Valkorion. Pathetic.

2. First, blaster bolts can penetrate that level of armouring. Secondly, again, just because they can put the armour inside the clothing doesn't mean that Palpatine did. Prove that Palpatine did, or it's an invalid point. You can't ask me to prove a negative by asking me to prove that Palpatine didn't. Nobody ever proves a negative in debates; if you propose something, the burden of proof is on you.

3. If it's removed from Wookieepedia, that's probably because it was unsourced and determined to be made up. Indeed, I have read pretty much all of Palpatine's sources and I don't recall that anyway. Bacta doesn't heal spiritual wounds either, which only makes it more suspicious.

Regardless, the comment in BoS is ambiguous (nearly killing someone can mean a near-miss, not inflicting mortal injuries) and it could've taken place early on in Palpatine's apprenticeship, or some other such time. We don't know for sure.
1. Of-course! Palpatine has decisive edge in melee combat for example. Palpatine holds his own in the domain of Force powers as well. A comprehensive case-by-case comparison will tell as much. However, my point is that each character has his share of strengths and weaknesses. You should not just look at strengths, mash them and than boast how invincible the character in question is. You look at the big picture. Show me a list of developments where Palpatine was on the receiving end. I am sure no Sheevite has done such homework. Similarly, you cannot give the benefit of doubt of Valkorion's strengths to Palpatine without a strong logical basis for it.

Durability? Vaylin (chained) tanked blaster bolts. I suppose she is more durable than Valkorion? Do keep in mind that Valkorion could conjure a protection bubble much like Vaylin and Revan. How will you measure durability here?

2. Depends on the material. Weight is not a good measure of protection in itself.

I am supposed to substantiate a supposition? This single remark has invoked so much reaction that it is a bit funny. You are free to counter my supposition with evidence.

3. I do not buy that explanation. I have experienced edit-wars there first-hand. I will try to identify the source.

4. I will dig into this matter further and let you know.

Follow-up to point one above.

I believe that Valkorion stands a good chance at overwhelming Palpatine in a contest of Force powers because the former had relatively greater exposure to external threats in person, developed relevant countermeasures in response and continued to develop and/or experiment with new techniques to subjugate potential adversaries with passage of time.

1. Nobody said anything about invincibility, weaknesses or anything of the sort. This is just that you're making very conspicuous efforts to undermine evidence for one side because you support the other. If you would allow me to present evidence for Palpatine without making "suppositions" to undermine their value, you'd come off looking a little less partisan.

I'm not talking about defensive Force powers which will obviously negate a blaster bolt; I'm talking about actually getting hit by a blaster bolt and suffering no ill effects.

2. My counter-evidence is the fact that not one source lists that Palpatine has armouring under his cloth. If you believe there is armour underneath, prove it. "Suppositions" are meaningless. I can "suppose" that you're a three-headed alien with forty-seven feet and artichoke hands as well. That's completely meaningless unless I have proof. If you make a claim, the burden of proof is yours, otherwise the opposition is free to dismiss your "suppositions", as I'll do here until I see some evidence on your end. That's debating 101.

3/4. I'll wait for source material.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Follow-up to point one above.

I believe that Valkorion stands a good chance at overwhelming Palpatine in a contest of Force powers because the former had relatively greater exposure to external threats in person, developed relevant countermeasures in response and continued to develop and/or experiment with new techniques to subjugate potential adversaries with passage of time.

How is Valkorion more exposed to threats in person? They were both of the scholarly sort but at least Sidious' training involved physical and martial brutality, lightsaber training, fighting armies, etc.

Palpatine's actually gone out of his way to deal with threats (The Lawless, Son of Dathomir, Lords of the Sith, etc.) whereas similar scenarios can hardly be cited on Vitiate's part. He's always tried to deal with things "the safe way" ie. possessing vessels or some such. His only recorded battles are when he's been forced to fight; when the fight's actually been brought to him. Palpatine has at least brought the fight to others.

That's forgoing Vitiate's abysmal record in combat situations as well; impaling himself on other people's lightsaber, having complete tunnel vision in fights (don't make the comparison with Palpatine and Vader; Palpatine wasn't actually fighting Vader and rightfully wasn't expecting any opposition from him), being incapable of responding to his own attacks being sent back at him, etc. Sidious isn't perfect but he's definitely shown better.

The last two things you said are applicable to Palpatine also.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How is Valkorion more exposed to threats in person? They were both of the scholarly sort but at least Sidious' training involved physical and martial brutality, lightsaber training, fighting armies, etc.

Palpatine's actually gone out of his way to deal with threats (The Lawless, Son of Dathomir, Lords of the Sith, etc.) whereas similar scenarios can hardly be cited on Vitiate's part. He's always tried to deal with things "the safe way" ie. possessing Children or some such. His only recorded battles are when he's been forced to fight; when the fight's actually been brought to him. Palpatine has at least brought the fight to others.

That's forgoing Vitiate's abysmal record; impaling himself on other people's lightsaber, having complete tunnel vision in fights (don't make the comparison with Palpatine and Vader; Palpatine wasn't actually fighting Vader and rightfully wasn't expecting any opposition from him).

The last two things you said are applicable to Palpatine also.
Valkorion began to challenge his adversaries and subjugating lands in proactive manner during childhood. Such ventures set him on the path of collision course with powerful Lord Dramath himself and we know what happened. Valkorion literally earned the title of Lord Vitiate from Emperor Marka Ragnos on the basis of his exploits on Medriaas without formal training at the age of 13. That is something.

NEXT;

Ruling over a vast Sith Empire for 1000 years straight does not counts in your opinion? It is not possible to hold the throne in a Sith Empire for that long due to the very nature of Sith philosophy that encourages competition and politics of scheming. At one point, an entire Dark Council decided to take its chances with Vitiate. A threat like that would motivate a lesser foe to flee for safety. Vitiate learned from such developments and developed his personal powerbase to increase his safeguards against external threats of all kinds. It makes perfect sense because you cannot stop thousands of Sith from conspiring against you for indefinite period.

NEXT;

As if rebellious Sith were not enough, Jedi entered the picture and attempted to assassinate Vitiate in person at different points in time. Vitiate learned valuable lessons from such encounters as well, honing his defensive abilities further and ways to cheat death.

NEXT;

The Jedi eventually managed to stop Vitiate's plan of consuming the galaxy and strike him down on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate retreated to Yavin IV to recover from the nearly fatal blow. However, as soon as he regained his strength to a certain extent, he went on the offensive and proceeded to devastate Ziost - sending a message to both Jedi and Sith that he means business and will exterminate them eventually.

NEXT;

Even in the Empire of Zakuul, Arcann and Vaylin were conspiring against Vitiate. Arcann made his move as soon as the Outlander was nabbed. Vaylin was waiting to unchain herself.

---

Vitiate spent much of his life contending with enemies (internal and external). He had enjoyed intervals of peace in-between but they would not last.

---

You tend to overlook the fact that Vitiate had suffered a significant setback earlier and his frustation seemingly impaired his judgement. He attempted to counter Hero of Tython and his allies with Sith Sorcery earlier but this strategy didn't work. I get the impression that Vitiate decided to give-up and deliberately exposed himself to Hero of Tython so he may capitalize and strike him down. Taking this one-time development at face value is hilarious and misguided.

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Tunnel vision? A large number of characters are guilty of it including Darth Malgus and Meetra Surik. And the likelihood of it increases in a fight against a Strike Team.

Sorry but you cannot make an excuse of Palpatine's case of tunnel vision. He failed to consider the fact that Darth Vader is a Sith and might look for an opportunity to kill him. Point is that nobody has infallible judgement non-stop. Characters have a personality and emotions that may impair judgement at times.

Vitiate has his share of brilliant performances in the battlefield. It is silly to ignore them.

---

Palpatine was also innovating with passage of time but he advanced in different areas/aspects in accordance with his experiences and mindset. I don't think Force Storm is a practical option for close-quarters combat or battlefield in general, for example. It is more like a tool for spreading fear with a display of destruction on mass-scale from safe distance.

Valkorion's advances are visible in mostly combat-applicable areas/aspects and battlefield scenarios.

Follow-up from the last point:

1. Telepathy is a smart method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Few expect it to be a decisive weapon in the battlefield. Conventional wisdom is that Telepathy is mostly effective against the weak/vulnerable subjects. However, an opponent is in for a rude awakening when he confronts Valkorion for the first time, learning a lesson the hard way but it is too late at that point.

2. Force Lightning is a decent method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Should Valkorion entrap you with this power, I would like to see who has the strength to walk-out from it unscathed. Doom is inevitable.

3. Sith Sorcery is an innovative spectrum to consider, to overwhelm an opponent decisively. So many variables in this case. Valkorion packs considerable surprises in this area. Some of his acts/attacks can be seen as constituting elements of Sith Sorcery.

4. Force Drain powers tend to be game-changer in the battlefield. Valkorion proved this on Ziost.

5. Teleportation is an option. Valkorion seems to have utilized this talent on Yavin IV to jump to Ziost or was it a Force Storm?

6. Valkorion also honed his defenses with passage of time. Most notable improvement was in the realm of defenses against lightsaber strikes at point blank range.

7. If you are struck down or your corporeal vessel is destroyed? No problem; hop in another and strike back. Heck, surprise the enemy in intangible form.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion began to challenge his adversaries and subjugating lands in proactive manner during childhood. Such ventures set him on the path of collision course with powerful Lord Dramath himself and we know what happened. Valkorion literally earned the title of Lord Vitiate from Emperor Marka Ragnos on the basis of his exploits on Medriaas without formal training at the age of 13. That is something.

His exploits on Medriaas are extremely vague and cannot be passed off as a genuine combat showing with any degree of certainty. But even provided that we place it on his resume, it hardly constitutes superiority to Palpatine's record. Subjugating peasants is impressive for Vitiate's age but in no way compares to tangling with some of the greatest Jedi and Dark Jedi to date.



Nowhere is Vitiate facing a personal challenge here. He spent the millennium as a publicly deified Emperor who never once made a public appearance and held audiences only on his own terms. The Dark Council insurrections were the only times when he was challenged, and Vitiate had the luxury of dealing with them on his own terms. In no way does this constitute evidence of "greater exposure to threats in person".

Compare that to Palpatine fighting Talzin and Maul on their terms rather than his own in SoD #4, literally traveling to Talzin's bastion of power to fight her. Vitiate's too scared to fight anyone on their terms; it's always on his own terms or at least on his home turf.



Yep. We've got the fight in the Revan novel, where Vitiate performed rather poorly for someone who was so much more powerful than his enemies, and we've got the TOR Strike Team fight. And both fights took place on his home turf, on his terms.

Note that in the novel fight, he couldn't even respond to Revan batting his Lightning back at him; even Dooku knew how to deflect his own Lightning when it came back to him. That's how poorly prepared for combat novel Vitiate was. I agree that Valkorion might not be privy to similar errors, but there's absolutely nothing of praise to be said about Vitiate's fight with Revan. He was far more powerful and the engagement could have been so much easier, except for Vitiate's own combative inadequacies which dragged the fight out and made it closer.



How is that a personal combat situation? Out of all of this, the only part where he engaged in personal combat was against the HoT on DK, which was again on his home turf. And Vitiate ended up walking into the HoT's lightsaber. Rather abysmal, wouldn't you agree?



I'll remind you that Arcann's move was successful; Vitiate died. What is so impressive about that?



I'm not holding Vitiate's failure with the ritual against him; I'm talking about him literally walking into the HoT's lightsaber, which is as poor a showing of a combatant as you can get.

As for Vitiate giving up and having suicidal thoughts, proof? Seems like you're taking the easy way out instead of owning up.



Nope. Malgus' "tunnel vision" was being rushed by a third party when he was completely locked into battle with Satele Shan and had no way out. You see him turning before Jace Malcon hit him; he just couldn't get out of his fight with Satele. Whereas Vitiate had Revan completely at his mercy and simply tunnel visioned; he never even saw the Saber Throw coming. That was on a dark side nexus as well.

Meetra and Palpatine were not tunnel visioned, but simply expecting Scourge and Vader to be their allies, not their enemies. Compare that to Valkorion, who knew full well that the Outlander was an enemy and literally witnessed Arcann cut the Outlander's handcuffs, yet proceeded to have his back turned the Outlander the entire time he was fighting Arcann, resulting in him getting impaled/shot in the back. Textbook case of tunnel vision again.

Palpatine is at least alert against people that he knows are his enemies. I mean, compare this to this. Sure, one came from behind and the other came from in front, but at least Palpatine is clearly alert and ready to draw his blade at a moment's notice. He knows Starkiller could potentially lash out at him, so he's guarded against that. By contrast, Valkorion completely forgets about the Outlander and keeps talking to Arcann after defeating him instead of switching his target to the Outlander.



Vitiate's chief advancement is learning Essence Transfer as a safeguard against personal assassination. And it's nice that he finally learned Force Deflection but as we see in both JK Act III and KotFE Chapter 1, he is still prone to rookiee combative errors. He hasn't advanced much there.

Though I fail to see what advancements Vitiate has made that Palpatine hasn't, but I suppose that's the focus of your next post which I'll address shortly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Follow-up from the last point:

1. Telepathy is a smart method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Few expect it to be a decisive weapon in the battlefield. Conventional wisdom is that Telepathy is mostly effective against the weak/vulnerable subjects. However, an opponent is in for a rude awakening when he confronts Valkorion for the first time, learning a lesson the hard way but it is too late at that point.

2. Force Lightning is a decent method of subjugating an opponent from a safe distance. Should Valkorion entrap you with this power, I would like to see who has the strength to walk-out from it unscathed. Doom is inevitable.

3. Sith Sorcery is an innovative spectrum to consider, to overwhelm an opponent decisively. So many variables in this case. Valkorion packs considerable surprises in this area. Some of his acts/attacks can be seen as constituting elements of Sith Sorcery.

4. Force Drain powers tend to be game-changer in the battlefield. Valkorion proved this on Ziost.

5. Teleportation is an option. Valkorion seems to have utilized this talent on Yavin IV to jump to Ziost or was it a Force Storm?

6. Valkorion also honed his defenses with passage of time. Most notable improvement was in the realm of defenses against lightsaber strikes at point blank range.

7. If you are struck down or your corporeal vessel is destroyed? No problem; hop in another and strike back. Heck, surprise the enemy in intangible form.

1. Palpatine has this as well, not to mention that Vitiate has only ever attempted it in battle once, and that was against Revan with the luxury of distance and a dark side nexus. Vitiate didn't even attempt TP against the strike team in JK Act II until he already defeated them. I fail to see how this will matter here.

2. Palpatine has this as well...

3. What displays of Sorcery has Vitiate ever shown in a fight? Palpatine has this as well.

4. Palpatine has this as well. Valkorion's Ziost incident clearly isn't applicable to a one-on-one fight, certainly not anymore than Palpatine's Storms are.

5. It wasn't a Storm because nothing else appeared to be affected. Incorporeal spirits can instantly teleport from one dark side nexus to another (see Freedon Nadd in TotJ). That's irrelevant to a combat scenario. Valkorion hasn't shown the power to teleport in the flesh.

6. I'll give you that. Though of course Palpatine knows Deflection as well, and whilst we've never seen him display it against a lightsaber blade, it's not exactly out of the bounds of imagination to perceive him doing so. Not that it's necessary, given that he can disarm people in an instant with Lightning and blow up their lightsabers with a gesture.

7. Yeah, again, Palpatine has this as well and has shown it.

So really, Palpatine has access to all of these as well as Valkorion, and most of these aren't even relevant to a one-on-one battle.

I like how, when you actually see the scene with Tyth getting bombarded by the ships, most of the shots don't even hit him, but the few that do bring him to his knees.

How the **** do notifications work? Doesn this website even have them?

No.

1/3

Originally posted by SunRazer
His exploits on Medriaas are extremely vague and cannot be passed off as a genuine combat showing with any degree of certainty. But even provided that we place it on his resume, it hardly constitutes superiority to Palpatine's record. Subjugating peasants is impressive for Vitiate's age but in no way compares to tangling with some of the greatest Jedi and Dark Jedi to date.
You have clearly missed my point:

Vitiate have contended with adversaries (perceived and otherwise) since childhood. He killed his parents first but this was only the beginning. He eliminated a large number of individuals/rivals afterwards and his most notable victory was against Lord Dramath (a powerful Sith Lord) at the age of 10. However, Vitiate's systematic purge continued till he consolidated his gains on Medriaas and became its undisputed ruler; he was just 13 years old at this point.

Palpatine does not have childhood experiences like that; he contended with worthy opponents at a much later stage of his life, and he received extensive tutoring in combat and ways of the Force before that.

Vitiate - in contrast - did not had any formal training during the course of his conquest of Medriaas but he still managed to smoke Sith left and right (during). What conclusion should I draw from this? Vitiate is smarter than you give him credit for.

Palpatine was a product of Rule of Two; a philosophy grounded on experiences of Sith in the past that encouraged its adherents to be prepared for any eventuality and hone their combat skills to perfection.

Vitiate's growth took a different course; he experienced a vastly different set of circumstances, took more interest in scholarly endeavors and his experiences shaped his progression accordingly. Nonetheless, his exploits on Medriaas are nothing short of amazing given his age and lack of formal training at that point in time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is Vitiate facing a personal challenge here. He spent the millennium as a publicly deified Emperor who never once made a public appearance and held audiences only on his own terms. The Dark Council insurrections were the only times when he was challenged, and Vitiate had the luxury of dealing with them on his own terms. In no way does this constitute evidence of "greater exposure to threats in person".
"My life spans a millennia. Legions have risen to test me." (Vitiate)

---

Glory and reputation does not precludes challenge to rule. Vitiate might have commanded great respect from his subjects on average but core principles of Sith philosophy were the same. Sith respect power, not any individual; Vitiate was a role model for them in this regard. However, politics of scheming and backstabbing were norm. Kaggath system was also there, for those who demanded a fair contest with an opponent of any rank (Emperor included).

There are some solid reasons for Vitiate lasting that long on the throne. Darth Nyriss elaborated one of them:

"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Vitiate dominated the minds of his subjects from time-to-time, transforming them into puppets of his will. He used such subjects to ensure his safeguard and/or to eliminate potential adversaries before they could make a move against him. An interplay of cunning, subterfuge and dark side powers, is apparent.

I don't think that members of the Dark Council were the only Sith who dared to challenge Vitiate. List would be really long because Vitiate ordered construction of the Dark Temple to serve as a prison for his worst enemies. Vitiate's timeline of existence is so long that it leaves room for a large number of stories to tell regarding him.

Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

It is really convenient for you to boast that Vitiate had the luxury of dealings with his enemies on his own terms. Reality is much more complex however.

HINT: An interplay of cunning, subterfuge and dark side powers on the part of Vitiate, a winning combination or proof of his strategic genius.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Compare that to Palpatine fighting Talzin and Maul on their terms rather than his own in SoD #4, literally traveling to Talzin's bastion of power to fight her. Vitiate's too scared to fight anyone on their terms; it's always on his own terms or at least on his home turf.
You sure about that?

When Vitiate was struck down on Zakuul, he swiftly infiltrated the mind of the Outlander to escape death. Bear in mind that the Outlander is seemingly virtually immune to external Telepathic influences. Now, within the Outlander's frame of mind, Vitiate spent time to prepare his subject for complete possession by enhancing the subject's powers and was on the verge of possessing him in full until his family members intervened on the behalf of the Outlander and collectively undermined him. Their victory is completely circumstantial; the brilliant strategy of using Vitiate's own devices against him also helped.

Vitiate can more than hold his own under unfavorable set of circumstances unless the odds are heavily stacked against him.

Environment is almost irrelevant to him:

Take a look at Vitiate's demonstration of power on Asylum, Odessen and a space station orbiting Dromund Kaas additionally. What kind of home turf advantage he enjoyed in these cases?

Take a look at Vitiate's exploits on Medriaas and Ziost respectively. He conquered Medriaas during childhood and turned Ziost into a battlefield in order to recover his strength and devastated it as soon as his recovery was complete. What kind of home turf advantage he enjoyed in these cases?

---

Palpatine's victory on Dathomir is absolutely circumstantial. Mother Talzin was trying to save her son (i.e. Darth Maul) and this forced her to shed her corporeal existence. She attempted to resurrect herself afterwards but additional interventions delayed the prospects of her full recovery until she found herself up against the trio of Palpatine, Count Dooku and General Grievous. As the clash progressed, General Grievous managed to stab Mother Talzin from the back, killing her. I am not sure what you see in this development to boast about Palpatine's prowess.

Palpatine might have gained some insight from this experience but we cannot tell much.

2/3

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yep. We've got the fight in the Revan novel, where Vitiate performed rather poorly for someone who was so much more powerful than his enemies, and we've got the TOR Strike Team fight. And both fights took place on his home turf, on his terms.

Note that in the novel fight, he couldn't even respond to Revan batting his Lightning back at him; even Dooku knew how to deflect his own Lightning when it came back to him. That's how poorly prepared for combat novel Vitiate was. I agree that Valkorion might not be privy to similar errors, but there's absolutely nothing of praise to be said about Vitiate's fight with Revan. He was far more powerful and the engagement could have been so much easier, except for Vitiate's own combative inadequacies which dragged the fight out and made it closer.
FYI:

http://i68.tinypic.com/23j3nmu.png

Yoda could not stop a blast of Force lightning heading his way? Did he forgot his prowess with Tutaminis? Was he suffering from Alzheimer's?

http://i68.tinypic.com/nb43d5.png

Palpatine is defenseless against a Force push?

http://i67.tinypic.com/10dwfn8.png

Obi-Wan was so much more powerful than Cade Bane? What is that?

http://i66.tinypic.com/4g0j5w.png

Count Dooku cannot take care of his lightsabers in company of some pirates...He was so much more powerful than Hondo? What is that?

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Your critic of Vitiate's combat prowess is bordering absurd.

Revan and T3-M4 confronted Vitiate whereas Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik contended with Imperial Guard. These two confrontations occurred simultaneously but distinctively at two different locations of the same setting. In this format, it was logical for Vitiate to concentrate on the moves of Revan and T3-M4 because they targeted him. Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik would be of least concern at this stage, given their situation and proximity.

As Revan and Vitiate exchanged blows, T3-M4 watched from a distance and waited for the right moment to strike. When Vitiate unleashed a Force Lightning Storm on Revan, it was during this moment that T3-M4 saw an opportunity to attack Vitiate because the latter was preoccupied; Vitiate instantaneously shielded himself from its flamethrower attack and destroyed it in response. This is good demonstration of Vitiate's situational awareness and responsiveness to an immediate threat (to his existence) at close proximity.

Proximity is the key word. You concentrate on the format of the battle.

Vitiate (eventually) brought Revan to his knees and was about to execute him but Meetra Surik intervened. Surik flung her lightsaber towards the position of Vitiate in order to save Revan (from considerable distance); this move caught Vitiate by surprise because Surik was contending with the Imperial Guard earlier and was not in the picture. It is a bit premature to accuse Vitiate of tunnel vision in this situation. Another point is that Vitiate had not honed his reflexes for lightsaber combat.

ANALOGY:

When Palpatine was subjecting Rahm Kota to a barrage of Force lightning, Starkiller gestured in the direction of Palpatine from noticeable distance. Debris fell over Palpatine, breaking his attack and forcing him to retreat. So we accuse Palpatine of tunnel vision in this case or lack of judgement? What if Starkiller had flung his lightsaber towards Palpatine during that moment?

Originally posted by SunRazer
How is that a personal combat situation? Out of all of this, the only part where he engaged in personal combat was against the HoT on DK, which was again on his home turf. And Vitiate ended up walking into the HoT's lightsaber. Rather abysmal, wouldn't you agree?
Vitiate's exploits on Ziost are much like personal combat situation. His presence was felt across the planet and he was directly responsible for death and destruction across the planet.

You continue to fixate on Vitiate's walk-in towards Hero of Tython without looking at the situation on the whole.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll remind you that Arcann's move was successful; Vitiate died. What is so impressive about that?
That statement is in connection with this point:

Vitiate spent much of his life contending with enemies (internal and external). He had enjoyed intervals of peace in-between but they would not last.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not holding Vitiate's failure with the ritual against him; I'm talking about him literally walking into the HoT's lightsaber, which is as poor a showing of a combatant as you can get.

As for Vitiate giving up and having suicidal thoughts, proof? Seems like you're taking the easy way out instead of owning up.
You are assuming that Vitiate was fine and dandy during that confrontation. This is not the case. Did you see Vitiate walking into an opponent's lightsaber under normal circumstances? Why didn't he let Revan strike him down?

I have offered an explanation. I don't feel like repeating over and over again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nope. Malgus' "tunnel vision" was being rushed by a third party when he was completely locked into battle with Satele Shan and had no way out. You see him turning before Jace Malcon hit him; he just couldn't get out of his fight with Satele. Whereas Vitiate had Revan completely at his mercy and simply tunnel visioned; he never even saw the Saber Throw coming. That was on a dark side nexus as well.
I am referring to this incident:

Malgus did not know the Jedi's name and he did not care. The Zabrak was merely the focus of his anger, a convenient target for his rage.

Malgus fell into the Force, roared, and bounded down the street, his anger lending him speed.

The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish.

Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crashed down on him from either side of the street...

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

Taken from The Third Lesson

You see? A seasoned warrior like Darth Malgus demonstrated lack of judgement during that moment. His let his rage cloud his judgement for a while but realized his error.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Meetra and Palpatine were not tunnel visioned, but simply expecting Scourge and Vader to be their allies, not their enemies. Compare that to Valkorion, who knew full well that the Outlander was an enemy and literally witnessed Arcann cut the Outlander's handcuffs, yet proceeded to have his back turned the Outlander the entire time he was fighting Arcann, resulting in him getting impaled/shot in the back. Textbook case of tunnel vision again.
Is it a sound judgement to trust a Sith Lord in a vulnerable situation even if he is friendly? This is the point you continue to miss.

Revan; Surik; Palpatine; and Vitiate - all were guilty of miscalculations to a certain extent in those situations.

Surik did not even notice Lord Scourge positioning himself behind her while she concentrated on Vitiate. Yet, you continue to critic Vitiate for not noticing her lightsaber throw towards him while he concentrated on Revan. A sign of double-standards in your assessment.

3/3

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine is at least alert against people that he knows are his enemies. I mean, compare this to this. Sure, one came from behind and the other came from in front, but at least Palpatine is clearly alert and ready to draw his blade at a moment's notice. He knows Starkiller could potentially lash out at him, so he's guarded against that. By contrast, Valkorion completely forgets about the Outlander and keeps talking to Arcann after defeating him instead of switching his target to the Outlander.
Some examples of Vitiate demonstrating good judgement and responsiveness in combat situations:

1. Vitiate versus T3-M4 (sneak attack from behind)
2. Vitiate-possessed Master Surro versus Lana Beniko (sneak attack from behind)

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Vitiate did not forget the Outlander! When he floored Arcann, he muttered "that is why you fail" and the Outlander plunged his lightsaber into him from behind a split-second later.

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Now, what about Palpatine getting shot on the back by Han Solo?

We can continue to go in circles over this matter, pinpointing moments of impaired judgement of each character at different points in time.

Critic should be tasteful, not overdone. It looses its value otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's chief advancement is learning Essence Transfer as a safeguard against personal assassination. And it's nice that he finally learned Force Deflection but as we see in both JK Act III and KotFE Chapter 1, he is still prone to rookiee combative errors. He hasn't advanced much there.
And Palpatine is ready for every instance of offense against him?

Everybody is prone to rookiee combative errors in the heat of combat. I have provided some visual examples above.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Though I fail to see what advancements Vitiate has made that Palpatine hasn't, but I suppose that's the focus of your next post which I'll address shortly.
I can expand on this but not today.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Palpatine has this as well, not to mention that Vitiate has only ever attempted it in battle once, and that was against Revan with the luxury of distance and a dark side nexus. Vitiate didn't even attempt TP against the strike team in JK Act II until he already defeated them. I fail to see how this will matter here.
Vitiate has wielded Telepathy as a weapon against countless individuals. Many of them unidentified so far.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. What displays of Sorcery has Vitiate ever shown in a fight? Palpatine has this as well.
Depends on your take with Sith Sorcery. It is an umbrella term for officially unidentified acts of manipulating the external environment and/or modification of conventional applications and/or esoteric applications.

1. Vitiate's assault on a rebellious Dark Council seems to be an act of Sith Sorcery; an unidentified application in this case.

2. Vitiate's illusions-based assault on the duo of Hero of Tython and T7-O1 seems to be an act of Sith Sorcery.

3. Vitiate's esoteric wave of Dark Side energy that he unleashed on a large contingent of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers on Zakuul.

4. Vitiate's esoteric act of enhancing the attunement of the Outlander with the Force on Odessen.

5. Vitiate's Dark blast application that incorporates Force lightning and Telekinesis in a single concentrated stream of attack.

6. Force blasts; Vitiate can unleash them with bare hands.

7. Vitiate creating/conjuring monstrosities of pure Dark Side energy such as Monolith.

8. Vitiate's signature tsunami of Dark Side energy that devastated Ziost. This was not a conventional Force Drain power.

Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Palpatine has this as well. Valkorion's Ziost incident clearly isn't applicable to a one-on-one fight, certainly not anymore than Palpatine's Storms are.
Palpatine doesn't have this. Vitiate's tsunami of Dark Side energy is combat-applicable; nothing suggests otherwise. Vitiate was intangible while he unleashed it but we have the example of Nathema to consider.

Originally posted by SunRazer
5. It wasn't a Storm because nothing else appeared to be affected. Incorporeal spirits can instantly teleport from one dark side nexus to another (see Freedon Nadd in TotJ). That's irrelevant to a combat scenario. Valkorion hasn't shown the power to teleport in the flesh.
The ground was shaking and that manifestation killed many:

"We suffered many casualties upon the Emperor's return..." (Darth Marr)

Sounds like Force Storm or a sister application. Conventional Teleportation is not a violent activity like that.

---

Freedon Nadd was able to manifest in key locations (strong in the Dark Side) across the galaxy; those are not conventional locations but focal points of Dark Side energy. This doesn't seems to be a conventional act of teleportation.

You see - majority of Sith spirits - are not able to conventionally teleport to a distant location. They tend to anchor themselves to a location strong in the Dark Side or an object in order to escape the pull of the Void.

Even Palpatine's spirit could not conventionally teleport itself to a distant location.

Originally posted by SunRazer
7. Yeah, again, Palpatine has this as well and has shown it.
Palpatine was largely helpless in intangible form. He created a large supply of clones to shift his essence into them one at a time.

Vitiate was capable of manipulating the external environment to enormous ends in intangible form. Look at his exploits on Yavin IV and Ziost respectively.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So really, Palpatine has access to all of these as well as Valkorion, and most of these aren't even relevant to a one-on-one battle.
Wrong.

Wow, I might have seen a couple of good points in skimming that. But as usual, flanked by some utter shit that's not worth responding to.

I'll consider responding to this later.

Since you're really the only one other than Nova I really care to debate regarding this topic:

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, I have to applaud you for the fact that this was probably the best attempt at a Valkorion > Sheev essay that has been recently done here.

Appreciated. Perhaps if I put some real effort in I could persuade you



The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.



Agreeable.



Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.



It's a fallacy if Sheev is indeed canonically > Valk. Admittedly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



Appreciated. Perhaps if I put some real effort in I could persuade you



The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.



Agreeable.



Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.



It's a fallacy if Sheev is indeed canonically > Valk. Admittedly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

When making a direct comparison, even ignoring Sheev's accolades, RotS Sidious outclassed Valkorion by a hilarious amount in almost all areas (see my Palpatine essay for that). And it's not like he can't blow up a big ship; someone fodder to him in Starkiller did that.

However, I'd still like a source for the Eternal Fleet cruiser being as long as you claim it is.

Again, disagree with that given that Vitiate's power was so widely dispersed when performing nearly all his feats pre-Ziost and post-Novel. Granted, not as much as Sidious'



Hadn't considered the Salvation feat tbh.



In the cutscene where the Terminus-class crashes into an EF Battlecruiser, we see that it's ~30% longer than the Terminus, while at a angle that makes the Terminus look larger than it really is since it was "closer to the camera." So we can easily estimate it was no less than 35% larger than a Terminus, likely more around 40% larger, so I estimated about 800 meters (which is also what the Wookiepedia page says, take that as you will).

Originally posted by Tondemonai
The accolades were left out because I would've spent closer to an hour to factor them in and counter them. I can do that another time.

Untrue, and I'll counter it if you care for me to get into it.

Go ahead.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640221.html

There's also this which isn't in the thread due to it being discovered later:

Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

-The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection)



Not sure what you mean. But frankly, I don't think it matters because the Ziost feat is a clear display of Vitiate at his limit. Palpatine doesn't have an established limit and the feats he performs (and is capable of during RotS) are far greater in scope, magnitude and nuance, but also casual for him. There's no comparison in my eyes.



Yeah, and Starkiller is fodder for Palpatine. Tyth, with this feat, isn't scratching RotS Palpatine's tier. Hell, I don't even think he's on Vader's level.



I could go into this but I'll take your word for it. Anyway, Tyth never destroyed the whole ship. He heats the whole ship up but only a portion is blown off.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAp9vsC30gY&t=27m23s

Even Starkiller's feat is better.

Originally posted by Azronger

Go ahead

If I have time to put some effort in I will. As of now, I barely had time for this:

Considering that Vitiate abandoned his Sith Empire to start the Empire of Zakuul, and completely relinquished the Sith as his focus, we could argue that no later than 200 BTC he wouldn't be considered a Sith anymore, and thus would not fall under Sidious' "strongest Sith in history" accolades. On the point of Sidious' "strongest Dark aside expression" and "strongest Dark aside wielder in history" accolades, the Son and Abeloth would fall under that accolade, and thus the accolades are made void and unreliable.



I was referring to the point that Vitiate's feats "aren't impressive," when the reason for them being less impressive than they could have been is because his power was hugely dispersed across the galaxy.



And that limit is extremely high, as it is completely reasonable to assume he still had a portion of his power within the Valkorion body. We know he didn't immediately go to Ziost, and the only logical place be would've gone is to make sure his children didn't kill the Valkorion body. He likely would've left some power in it, which means he performed the Ziost feat when not at full power at that time, and then there's the obviously large gap between Ziost Tenebrae and KotFE Valkorion.

To address the magnitude of the Ziost feat being inferior to the Byss one, keep in mind that while he dominated most of the populace and not all of it, several hundred (if not in the thousands) of those he dominated were Jedi and Sith, while Sidious had to dominate the minds of weak, non-Forceful beings gradually. It's clear Vitiate didn't have much trouble mindslaving the people on Ziost given that he still had the energy and focus to create dozens the most powerful and complexly created Sithspawn in history (not to mention the Colossal and Worldbreaker Monolith's).

Now, something that I don't think many people consider: Vitiate was likely only able to dominate the Sith on Nathema with a ritual. However, after the Nathema consuming feat was performed, he likely would've had the power to do it without a ritual, given that his power grew exponentially. Also pertaining to his consuming of Nathema, he needed the power of the 8k Sith to do it with a ritual. After the ritual, he had their power, plus the planets and it's populace. This means he could replicate the feat on his own and perform the ritual in less time given he himself had more power than was needed/used during the Nathema ritual.



I agree many of Sidious' feat are > Vitiate's, but not all of them, and we've never actually seen Vitiate use his full power, while we have seen Sidious' (vs Yoda we see him pushed to his limit).



Starkiller's feat was performed with extreme concentration and effort, and (arguably) with a rage amp, while Tyth performed his casually with minimal charging, and that's not even bringing up the fact that Tyth destroyed a much larger target (approximately 6-7x larger). Presumably, he also did it while not at full power, given that multiple references were made to him not being "fully resurrected", which can easily be interpreted as him being weaker than usual (though without concrete evidence the point is somewhat void).



We never see the final fate of it, but we quite clearly see it separating into several pieces and exploding. Note that we have never seen an Eternal fleet Battlecruiser destroyed so completely outside of the end of Chapter 16.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If I have time to put some effort in I will. As of now, I barely had time for this:

Considering that Vitiate abandoned his Sith Empire to start the Empire of Zakuul, and completely relinquished the Sith as his focus, we could argue that no later than 200 BTC he wouldn't be considered a Sith anymore, and thus would not fall under Sidious' "strongest Sith in history" accolades.

Vitiate's personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant. He went down in the history books and official sourcebooks as Sith, and as such he is considered a Sith at least until the end of vanilla TOR. Although the official website still labels him a Sith as of Ziost, and the codex also states he is a "Sith entity" even as Valkorion, so Sidious' accolades are valid to use even there.



I am sorry, but that's horrible logic.

Firstly, you are assuming without basis that the Son and Abeloth are somehow special and that they are excluded from such quotes. If a quote comes declaring Palpatine or Valkorion or Luke or Yoda stronger than the Ones, than that's now fact.

Second, Sidious' accolades do not apply to the Son and Abeloth. Both characters have a myriad of accolades declaring them to be more powerful than DE Palpatine, GM Luke Skywalker, any Sith or any Force user, period.

Third, you, for some reason, think that because the Son and Abeloth do not fall under the jurisdiction of Sidious' quotes, the quotes becomes entirely unreliable. If we were to apply that kind of logic to every accolade, we'd start getting some real funny results. The fact of the matter is that only characters who have accolades putting them outside Sidious' quote, are outside their jurisdiction, and Vitiate isn't the Son or Abeloth; Vitiate is Vitiate. He does not have such accolades.



I never called his feats unimpressive, so not sure why you're bringing this up. Although I'd still like to know how is power is dispersed.



This falls under pure speculation. The first place Vitiate went to was Yavin IV. This is hinted at in the codex and also the letter from Servant One.

Also, if Vitiate wanted to make sure the Valkorion body did not get killed, he wouldn't have placed any power into it, since his essence isn't powerful enough to defeat either of his children, admitting this much himself and also being hinted at in the codex. It would make zero sense to weaken himself further when he couldn't defeat his children anyway.



None of this still puts him above Palpatine. Fact is Vitiate couldn't even dominate the entire planet, and couldn't possess unconscious people, clear signs these were beyond his power level. If you want to say the possession of Force users and the creation of Monolith's makes up for that, fine, but don't pretend it even remotely makes up for Palpatine's feat being only an infantile fraction of his power (possibly less than a tenth), and being done from across the galaxy, which is an indescribably monumental demonstration of power compared to Vitiate's.



Vitiate never even dominated the Sith on Nathema. That's been debunked countless times. Vitiate also never gained the Sith's power; that's stated nowhere, and actively contracted by his later showings regardless. He can only do something equivalent to the Nathema ritual as of TOR with max power, not anytime before that. If he truly had the power of 8000 Sith, then he'd be a casual star buster by the time of TOR.



Vitiate used his full power on Ziost, so that's false. Sidious being pushed to his limit by Yoda doesn't help Vitiate here, given that Yoda's only time being pushed to his limit was against Sidious also. Sidious' casual feats already outstrip Vitiate's max effort ones by RotS. There's no comparison.



I don't really care for the rest of this since it's Sidious I'm defending here, not Starkiller.

Yea, needs to be pointed out: Teth was able to blast that ship after drawing on some of the outlander's power. So him being able to do that of his own ability is highly dubious.

You mean Tyth? No he wasn't, lmfao. Tyth isn't even Force-sensitive.

Who cares whether he's force sensitive. He charged up using the outlander's power...
"the betrayer now offers you sacrifice. Fuel for the six gods"

the outlander was used to charge up the attack. Whether he's a force sensitive or not is moot

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You mean Tyth? No he wasn't, lmfao. Tyth isn't even Force-sensitive.

Right, because the ability he used to destroy the Battlecruiser was totally a rocket/energy projectile and not a clearly Force-based technique

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Who cares whether he's force sensitive. He charged up using the outlander's power...
"the betrayer now offers you sacrifice. Fuel for the six gods"

the outlander was used to charge up the attack. Whether he's a force sensitive or not is moot

Lolno. He's saying the Outlander was to be sacrificed as a means to fully resurrect Tyth, he didn't draw on their power in any way

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Right, because the ability he used to destroy the Battlecruiser was totally a rocket/energy projectile and not a clearly Force-based technique



Lolno. He's saying the Outlander was to be sacrificed as a means to fully resurrect Tyth, he didn't draw on their power in any way
Too bad we see him visibly drawing on the oulander's power while charging his blast.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Too bad we see him visibly drawing on the oulander's power while charging his blast.

Except we don't lol