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Again.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Who wins? Fight takes place on Yavin IV.

I can honestly see Vader taking this.

Revan with slight difficulty.

Eh...

Revan makes short work of him.

I was hoping for a few arguments at least. I'm not making a revised thread just for people to say who wins.

You can read my arguments in my debate versus Ellimist.

It hinges on his domination of the strike team, doesn't it? It's midnight here; I'll consider reading it tomorrow.

Revan's canonical telekinetic domination is a central argument, but it doesn't hinge on his success, no.

--- --- ---

Revan introduction, part 1: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15987463#post15987463

Revan introduction, part 2: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15987464#post15987464

---

Darth Vader introduction, part 1: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989383#post15989383

Darth Vader introduction, part 2: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989385#post15989385

Darth Vader introduction, part 3: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989409#post15989409

Darth Vader introduction, part 4: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989433#post15989433

---

Revan rebuttal, part 1: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989971#post15989971

Revan rebuttal, part 2: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989972#post15989972

Revan rebuttal, part 3: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15989973#post15989973

Revan rebuttal, part 4: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15990250#post15990250

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=641922&pagenumber=2#post16180808

I will say Revan takes this but in a very close fight.

Revan's killed Jedi and warriors like Darth Malak, who is one of the most skilled swordsmen of his time, Darth Nyriss, a member of the dark council for twenty years, who managed to defeat Meetra Surik and Scourge, Mandalore the ultimate, Yusanis(granted yusanis is only powerful in name) and even held his own against the sith emperor,Vitiate and withstood three-hundred years of torture and finally he fought against the most skilled strike team of their time, not to mention the countless of Sith Master/apprentices Mandolorians, droids and rancors on the various planets he visited before and after his mindwipe.

Revan solidly

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan with slight difficulty.

Sabers: Revan, with some difficulty. His superior aug and precog give him the edge over Vader's superior technical skill.

Force: Revan with casual ease.

All Out: Revan destroys.

Revan wins definitely, but not easily.

Vader wins sabers.
Not sure about the other two.

Isn't Legends Vader confirmed to be above Legends Dooku? If so, there's no chance that Revan destroys.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Isn't Legends Vader confirmed to be above Legends Dooku?
Nope.

I recall a source(s) saying that he was the most powerful of Palpatine's apprentices?

Although to use Ant-logic, "that should be obvious without it anyway".

Dooku's just as good as Vader, tbh.

Maybe better.

Interesting. I could definitely argue that without the presence of the quote, but I believe it's there. I'll raid Zapan's RT's and see what comes up.

Dooku's ragdolling ROTS Kenobi in the same continuity that Vader is roughly stalemating a shadow of ROTS' former self.

Hmm. There's a couple of quotes calling Vader the Emperor's most powerful servant/disciple, though they appear to refer to the context of the Empire rather than all of the Emperor's apprentices in history.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's ragdolling ROTS Kenobi in the same continuity that Vader is roughly stalemating a shadow of ROTS' former self.

Sabers vs Force, buddy. I thought you held RotS Obi-Wan and Dooku as equals in sabers?

Although Ben Kenobi is a shadow of his former self in sabers, Vader grows considerably in sabers after that. And Ben Kenobi's more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.

I'd rank both Dooku and ROTS Kenobi as better duelists than Vader or Revan. And while Vader improved, I doubt that significantly. The best way to improve is via fighting those your own skill or training under someone of greater skill IMO, and besides ANH Kenobi, Vader had no opportunity. In regards to the Force, I'm not sure ANH Kenobi is more powerful than ROTS Kenobi in Legends. Canon? Sure. Legends? Eh, I'd say they are at least comparable... close enough so that ROTJ Vader isn't doing what Dooku did to him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sabers vs Force, buddy. I thought you held RotS Obi-Wan and Dooku as equals in sabers?

Although Ben Kenobi is a shadow of his former self in sabers, Vader grows considerably in sabers after that. And Ben Kenobi's more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.

ROTS Kenobi would probably due well against Dooku in sabers only. Many say Dooku could potentially find an opening in Kenobi's defensives although I'd say he may tire out before doing so.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd rank both Dooku and ROTS Kenobi as better duelists than Vader or Revan. And while Vader improved, I doubt that significantly. The best way to improve is via fighting those your own skill or training under someone of greater skill IMO, and besides ANH Kenobi, Vader had no opportunity. In regards to the Force, I'm not sure ANH Kenobi is more powerful than ROTS Kenobi in Legends. Canon? Sure. Legends? Eh, I'd say they are at least comparable... close enough so that ROTJ Vader isn't doing what Dooku did to him.

Per Insider #62: Fightsaber, Vader improved considerably in sabers:



And Obi-Wan Kenobi factually grows in power from RotS to ANH in Legends. Though they could still be close.

No reason providing the quote. You know I've read it countless times.

Point being, I don't see how Vader could have improved substantially.

Practicing against fodder doesn't make you that much better.

Got a quote for the Kenobi one though? Would need something after 2005.

It says he freed himself of emotional pain and gained a greater mastery over both himself and the Force, in addition to practicing with various opponents and altering his fighting style.

As for Obi-Wan:



That's from October 2004, done in relation to the release of RotS IIRC.

There's another one but I don't have it on hand. There's also the one from the ANH novel but that's 1977.

The emotional pain and master over himself broke down with the return of Luke with ESB and ROTJ, which was Vader's prime, so I don't see that relevant.

Practicing with fodder isn't that relevant to me. Got any examples of how his fighting style was altered?

And nah, that quote's more toward Kenobi's newfound power over death, not overall increase in combative power.

From 2004 regardless.

Not sure. Ask one of the Vader experts, or Zapan on CV.

Oh, no, his improvements are mostly his connection to the Living Force. There's no indication of "combative power" increasing.

Does Star Wars: Kenobi have anything? It was released on August 27, 2013.

I do remember something about his physical state obviously declining but that's about it.

That's 19BBY, so it wouldn't be much. Though if his physicality was declining by then alone then that doesn't bode well for ANH Obi-Wan.

Then again, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that Ben has slowed and Death Star confirms that he's out of practice, which ties in with Fightsaber claiming that he was a shadow of his former self.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's 19BBY, so it wouldn't be much. Though if his physicality was declining by then alone then that doesn't bode well for ANH Obi-Wan.

Then again, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force confirms that Ben has slowed and Death Star confirms that he's out of practice, which ties in with Fightsaber claiming that he was a shadow of his former self.

The Death Star book is 2007 too.

Hmm? What's wrong with being from 2007?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hmm? What's wrong with being from 2007?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Got a quote for the Kenobi one though? Would need something after 2005.

That's sabers, not Force. We've had his sabers decline established since 2002. Though the fact that Vader outright senses how out of practice Ben is through the Force in a 2007 source is particularly telling, I agree.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's sabers, not Force. We've had his sabers decline established since 2002. Though the fact that Vader outright senses how out of practice Ben is through the Force in a 2007 source is particularly telling, I agree.

Eh but then the 08 Life and Legend of Kenobi, still noted he was doing Jedi exercises, among other things mentioned and it's generally noted Masters of Form 3 are considered undefeatable. Then noting Vader's saber feats and duels in both Purge and TFU series, Obi-Wan holding out against him for a time is pretty good, so even if there's a decline I don't really see it being much an issue frankly.

Doing Jedi exercises isn't mutually exclusive with declining. I mean, he's practicing against thin air.

Also, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force cites his lack of practice again, and it's from 2010.

EDIT: They're releasing a new version in 2018? Interesting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Doing Jedi exercises isn't mutually exclusive with declining. I mean, he's practicing against thin air.

Also, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force cites his lack of practice again, and it's from 2010.

EDIT: They're releasing a new version in 2018? Interesting.

Fair enough though again, it's still impressive he managed that long against Vader since the latter didn't stop fighting.

No doubt he was still formidable, though the idea is that he doesn't really compare to the likes of Dooku anymore.

And Death Star implies that he was nearing exhaustion by the end of the fight.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Fair enough though again, it's still impressive he managed that long against Vader since the latter didn't stop fighting.

I view it as Vader being cautious. Also the hallway in the Death Star didn't have a lot of things to throw around with the Force so their Force barriers made it sabers only. I don't think Vader hurling a mouse droid would've been worth breaking his momentum.

Yep, it's stated that Vader fought with apprehension in their duel. In Death Star he's paranoid that Kenobi will pull a random move and **** him up like he did on Mustafar.

Being cautious doesn't mean he wouldn't use the Force. Hell, he would probably use attacks like Force push even more to distance himself from Kenobi, reassess the situation, resume fighting, etc.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I view it as Vader being cautious. Also the hallway in the Death Star didn't have a lot of things to throw around with the Force so their Force barriers made it sabers only. I don't think Vader hurling a mouse droid would've been worth breaking his momentum.

Well yeah he was being cautious, though if Kenobi had really declined so rapidly, not sure Kenobi would be able to kill him if he faltered in his attention. Especially since he shown previously to withstand a lot of crap prior and fought some nice duelists.

Yup, Vader is canonically > Dooku:



-Handbook 3: Dark Empire

And yeah, ANH Kenobi >> RotS Kenobi as a Force user, so claiming that because Vader didn't manhandle Kenobi puts him below Dooku is invalid:



-A New Hope novelization

The first one is referring to the time-period, blatantly.

The second is referring to Kenobi's newfound power over death.

Not to mention they're prior to 2005. I wanted quotes afterwards.

I mean, that's obvious to everyone else, but I imagine you'll dispute that. Don't bother, since you're wrong.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The first one is referring to the time-period, blatantly.

The second is referring to Kenobi's newfound power over death.

Not to mention they're prior to 2005. I wanted quotes afterwards.

I mean, that's obvious to everyone else, but I imagine you'll dispute that. Don't bother, since you're wrong.

Oh? I'm wrong, am I? Care to prove that with indisputable evidence, or are you just saying that because you're unwilling to admit that the text can be interpreted in a multitude of ways? Given my past experiences with you, I'd say it's the latter, but feel free to prove me wrong.

You seem mad.

We already established you have no interpretation abilities after your little fiasco with the Droma quotes. I'm not wasting my time getting an author to tell you that you're a retard this time though, so don't waste our time and just leave the thread.

Az, the first of your quotes doesn't necessarily imply that Darth Vader was the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. It just means that Sedriss was the strongest after Vader's death.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The first one is referring to the time-period, blatantly.Which one lol, Vader was long dead by DE.

Re-read the quote, buddy.

I've read it pally, it describes Sedriss as second to Vader in present tense as of DE. Despite Vader being deceased.

Not really sure what you're arguing. The quote says Vader's the best until he dies, then the mantle goes to Sedriss.

It's not saying Vader's the best in the history of all of Palpatine's apprentices though.

Right. If it said "after Darth Vader's death" or some such, you'd have a point. But it says after Darth Vader, Vader being a person not an event.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really sure what you're arguing.
^^^

You gotta explain what you're arguing, dude.

That the quote is saying Sedriss - excluding Darth Vader - is (perhaps) the strongest disciple Palpatine has had (ever.)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That the quote is saying Sedriss - excluding Darth Vader - is (perhaps) the strongest disciple Palpatine has had (ever.)
No, it was in the context of the time period Sedriss existed in. Nowhere is it implied that she's the strongest bar Vader.

@Beni: Yeah, no.

Welcome to square one lmao, in which I explain that given Vader was dead during that time period, it must be referring to Palpatine's disciples as a whole, then go on to repeat that "after Vader" = "after Vader's death" is grammatically incorrect. Keep up. facepalm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You seem mad.

We already established you have no interpretation abilities after your little fiasco with the Droma quotes. I'm not wasting my time getting an author to tell you that you're a retard this time though, so don't waste our time and just leave the thread.

I seem mad? Just look at yourself, lmao.

So because I offered an alternative interpretation, I have no "interpretation abilities"? Lmao, this is truly rich. Next time you call someone a retard, might wanna look into the mirror first

And Beni's right, btw

Originally posted by Azronger
Next time you call someone a retard, might wanna look into the mirror first
Pretty sure if you buy an "Insulting for Dummies" book on Amazon, this one is on the first place.

^ With a notebook of insults makeshifted from the Diary Of A Whimpy Kid movies.

Revan, but Vader gives him a good fight.