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Starting distance is 15 meters.

Location: Entrance Hall of the Jedi Temple

R1: Act III HoT
R2: SoR/Early-KOTFE Outlander (when he got ragdolled by Arcann)
R3: KOTET/Iokath HoTlander (prime)

Mace stomps.
Mace handily.
Mace wins.

Mace can factually compete with Sidious. Outlander can't win here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mace can factually compete with Sidious. Outlander can't win here.
What if he can?

I believe that Mace Windu's performance against Palpatine is a one-off, not indication of his base capability in all situations.

Sometimes mindset makes hell of a difference.

----

The Outlander (prime) > Revan and a peer of Vaylin. And an expert duelist on top of that. Too much power and skill for Windu to deal with and no Dark Side emotions for Windu to capitalize on.

His ability to compete with the Emperor is not circumstantial. That he could duel Sidious to a standstill before winning via Shatterpoint is, but he doesn't need to do that to beat the Outlander.

Originally posted by SunRazer
His ability to compete with the Emperor is not circumstantial. That he could duel Sidious to a standstill before winning via Shatterpoint is, but he doesn't need to do that to beat the Outlander.
Why didn't Mace Windu stomp Mother Talzin?

Nothing suggests that Windu can defeat the Outlander.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why didn't Mace Windu stomp Mother Talzin?

Nothing suggests that Windu can defeat the Outlander.

Could be he didn't go all out with her? After all didn't the Jedi wanna capture her? I mean you can't say that Mace is gonna do his best against a barely trained duelist like he did against a sith lord that took down the best of the best tbh

Because she's that good? And it's TCW. The Legends argument for Mace is partly predicated on the notion that he improves during RotS as well. Secondly, the RotS novel states that Mace was "cutting loose" and going all-out with Vaapad, "drawing deeper on it than he ever had" when he was fighting Sidious. So he was both pre-prime and not going all-out against Talzin.

Yeah, being able to compete with Sidious by virtue of fiat, is more than enough to suggest that he can beat the Outlander.

Even if there was no excuse for the Talzin fight, it wouldn't matter. Word of God holds true; Mace can contend with Sidious. It wouldn't be the first time Filoni has gone off with his own interpretation of characters (ie. Grievous). And no that's void in the face of not only Lucas' word, but also Gillard's word and the vast majority of Legends works which place Mace on the level of Yoda and Sidious.

Palpatine disarmed Mother Talzin in like two strikes.

Yep, with circumstances. And again, Mace was pre-prime and not going all-out, not to mention the case with Talzin does nothing to change the fact that Mace is able to compete with Sidious. Even if I had no excuse for the fight, it'd be nothing more than a low showing like him failing to lift small transports in Shatterpoint. Word of God and the vast majority of Legends sources tell us that Mace is on Yoda/Palpatine's level. You're in denial.

Your only possible argument is that this may be morals on Mace, who won't go all-out. But if sufficiently pressed, he could well do so.

Mace brought is A-game against Sidious by virtue of circumstance, yeah.

Competing with Sidious =/= being his equal.

They were described as equally matched.

But this was down to the circumstances of the fight and can't be ported into any one matchup. lel.

It was a standstill as a product of circumstances. Mace being able to compete with Sidious (which doesn't mean fighting to a standstill) is not at all related to those circumstances.

It's directly linked to those circumstances, Windu can't fight Palpatine without Vaapad.

He's completely able to fight Palpatine within the context of the films where Vaapad isn't a thing. He's placed by several souces on Yoda's level, and Gillard has him as a 9 or at least on the border, which means he can compete with Sidious (Dooku, just an 8, has contended with Yoda).

Irrelevant given Legends is presumably in play here. But regardless you're wrong, we've already discussed in the past that you cannot assume Vaapad does not exist in Canon on an absence of evidence. On the other hand Gillard describes Windu as achieving 9 because he "cheats" by using the dark side i.e. Vaapad, and Lucas approved of Vaapad and how it functioned in the novel.

But like I said, irrelevant.

I said in the context of the films, not canon as a whole. Regardless, Mace being on the border still allows him to compete, and again, a number of sources hold him to Yoda's level. Lucas himself claims that Mace is capable of competing.

Suggesting he can't fight Palpatine at all is pretty ludicrous.

Right, Film Only continuity. Call it whatever you like its not in play here, and we don't know whether Vaapad was a factor.

And its not ridiculous at all when we consider that sources have described Palpatine as blitzing the B-Team before he even realised what was happening.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, Film Only continuity. Call it whatever you like its not in play here, and we don't know whether Vaapad was a factor.

And its not ridiculous at all when we consider that sources have described Palpatine as blitzing the B-Team before he even realised what was happening.

I'll drop the film point then.

Which is factually wrong per both the film and novel, lmfao. It's hyperbole for him being shocked at how quickly Palpatine cut them down.

Or do you actually think Mace was moving around and parrying strikes from Sheev without realizing it was happening?

Your repeated neglections of my points on Mace being held to Yoda's level by a variety of Legends sources as well as bordering on 9 per Gillard and being able to compete with Sheev per Lucas seem to be particularly telling. You can't argue against facts.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll drop the film point then.

Which is factually wrong per both the film and novel, lmfao. It's hyperbole for him being shocked at how quickly Palpatine cut them down.

Or do you actually think Mace was moving around and parrying strikes from Sheev without realizing it was happening? Call it what you like it's still clear from all sources that he was too slow, even in the movie Sidious cuts down Tinn and Kolar before he does anything.

I see no reason to believe he'd do any better than Dooku did against Yoda, if not worse tbh.

I addressed Gillard, Lucas's statement doesn't conflict with anything because he can compete with Sidious - using Vaapad, and I'd rather prefer see these quotes comparing him to Yoda before I comment on that.

Yeah, this is Legends where Windu's performance was highly circumstantial. Even if he did compete with Sidious under very specific circumstances, he is in no way nearly as good as him in sabers.

Mace stomps

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Call it what you like it's still clear from all sources that he was too slow, even in the movie Sidious cuts down Tinn and Kolar before he does anything.

I see no reason to believe he'd do any better than Dooku did against Yoda, if not worse tbh.

I addressed Gillard, Lucas's statement doesn't conflict with anything because he can compete with Sidious - using Vaapad, and I'd rather prefer see these quotes comparing him to Yoda before I comment on that.

1. Obviously Palpatine was still faster. He cuts down Kolar before Mace can intervene (that's not to say Mace couldn't react as the film clearly shows he could), then spins away from Mace to stab Tiin, and Mace was obviously helpless to stop that (the novel version and Agen and Saesee coming forward so they were more prone and Mace couldn't protect them there either). In the film, you clearly see Mace changing his stance before Sidious even manages the first strike. He wasn't unable to react. And given that in the film he retreats slightly, not to mention not expecting Palpatine's sheer speed/ferocity (hence the hyperbole for him "not realizing what was happening", he wasn't able to stop Agen's death. And again even if he moved forwards upon Agen's death, Sidious was spinning away from him to strike Tiin, which he obviously couldn't stop. It's not irreconcilable.

2. I didn't say he'd do better. I said he can do something similar; i.e. compete. Which he can, per Word of God. Although him being on the border rather than just an 8 like Dooku makes it entirely possible that he would do better.

3. You gave a rationale for him not normally being a 9, which I played along with. You've said nothing in relation to him being on the border, though. As for the Yoda quotes, I'll get them for you eventually, but I won't be around for a couple of days. You can ask Ant or someone else in the meantime.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Obviously Palpatine was still faster. He cuts down Kolar before Mace can intervene (that's not to say Mace couldn't react as the film clearly shows he could), then spins away from Mace to stab Tiin, and Mace was obviously helpless to stop that (the novel version and Agen and Saesee coming forward so they were more prone and Mace couldn't protect them there either). In the film, you clearly see Mace changing his stance before Sidious even manages the first strike. He wasn't unable to react. And given that in the film he retreats slightly, not to mention not expecting Palpatine's sheer speed/ferocity (hence the hyperbole for him "not realizing what was happening", he wasn't able to stop Agen's death. And again even if he moved forwards upon Agen's death, Sidious was spinning away from him to strike Tiin, which he obviously couldn't stop. It's not irreconcilable. Not sure what source you're referring to exactly. I assume the movie. But as I said in the film he does nothing. Yes he enters a ready stance before Sidious attacks, but that only makes his subsequent lack of reaction more damning.

To be clear what I'm saying here is that while Kolar and Tinn are being cut down, he doesn't appear to move on Sidious at all, only reacting when Sidious comes for him. And there is a big difference between failing to intercept his opponent and failing to respond at all.

This corroborating with tertiary sources.

I wouldn't call that competing, not at least according to secondary sources. To compete is to suggest a level of rivalry or parity between the two. But Sidious is far ahead.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. You gave a rationale for him not normally being a 9, which I played along with. You've said nothing in relation to him being on the border, though.That rationale being Gillard's yes. I'm sure you can find the interview. And being on the border I assume is in relation to his ability to switch. But being on the border isn't much anyway, as we know there are huge differences between tiers.

Are you referring to the quotes from the Fact Files?

Mace can compete in a saber duel with Sids. I doubt he can compete as a Force user, though.

Mace, great fight
HoT, solid fight
Outlander

1. Mace
2. Mace with difficulty
3. Mace with more difficulty

HoT.

Nah Nova.

Mace can compete with Sidious as per GL when Vaapad had yet to be established.

Vaapad, later introduced, provided an explanation to how this was possible.

That's what the EU does - provides details and fills in the gap.

Hotlander.

Mace easily

Mace
HoT
HoT destroys

lmao