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How can a bloodlusted Superman beat a bloodlusted Silver Surfer?

By punching I'm guessing.

The same way that Thor can, by going in close-combat and putting the shit out of Silver Surfer ! >_<

Punching blasting, finger flicking.

Why wouldn't a bloodlusted Surfer just create kryptonite? Or red sun radiation? Or both?

Because he's been punched?

All-out, but abiding typical levels of comic realism, Superman would simply beat the hell out of Surfer.

But in any fight where powers are used a lot more realistically than is the comics norm, Surfer annihilates Superman and all-out or not matters not.

Not sure what you mean by bloodlusted.

Surfer has surprisingly weak blasting power. Nothing Superman couldnt rush through to knock him out.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
All-out, but abiding typical levels of comic realism, Superman would simply beat the hell out of Surfer.

But in any fight where powers are used a lot more realistically than is the comics norm, Surfer annihilates Superman and all-out or not matters not.

Not sure what you mean by bloodlusted. In a fight where powers would be used realistically, Surfer wouldn't even know the fight had started before Superman caves his head in.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Surfer has surprisingly weak blasting power. Nothing Superman couldnt rush through to knock him out. This is surprisingly overlooked on the forum.

His blasts have been powerful enough to leave behind singularities as a side effect. Doesn't sound that weak to me.

Originally posted by Surtur
His blasts have been powerful enough to leave behind singularities as a side effect. Doesn't sound that weak to me.

He hasn't done that every time though has he to be fair. Otherwise he would walk up to Thanos just blast him and walk off. Blast Odin and walk off.

Originally posted by Surtur
His blasts have been powerful enough to leave behind singularities as a side effect. Doesn't sound that weak to me. If you mean in Annihilation, he purposely left that there to simultaneously mark Airwalkers passing and keep Ravenous from taking his power.
That wasn't a side effect of a random blast.

Originally posted by Juntai
If you mean in Annihilation, he purposely left that there to simultaneously mark Airwalkers passing and keep Ravenous from taking his power.
That wasn't a side effect of a random blast. He's a troll, pay him no attention. Ignore list is the way to go.

He can't. Unless Surfer let's him.

Of course he can. Surfer can't even beat Henshaw let alone Superman.

Originally posted by Juntai
If you mean in Annihilation, he purposely left that there to simultaneously mark Airwalkers passing and keep Ravenous from taking his power.
That wasn't a side effect of a random blast.
Whether or not he did it on purpose doesn't take away from the feat. If he can unleash that much energy, then he can unleash that much energy. That's like trying to downplay a feat where Supes lifts something by saying that he intended to lift it. It would actually be more damning if he DIDN'T mean to do such a thing. Like the time he evolved a planet billion years in moments by trying to put all his energy into healing the planet. Him doing that on accident doesn't mean that he could do such a thing and actually control the process.


It being intentional doesn't take away from the fact that the large black hole was a side effect of his energy discharge. He wanted to release that much energy... and he did it successfully.

Originally posted by darthgoober
side effect of his energy discharge. I don't think you know what side effect means.

You mean intended effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No I mean side effect. And intended/planned side effect, but side effect. If it's the main intent, it's not a side effect. What is this shit, goober?



Creating a black hole wasn't a secondary - it was the whole purpose of his discharge.

If I intend punch you in the face, you getting punched in the face is not a side effect, because that's what I wanted to do.

Your girlfriend crying would be a side effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer didn't shoot a black hole out of his hand, his action was to release a butt load of energy. The formation of the blackhole was a secondary effect of that energy discharge.
Surfer's intent was to use his energy discharge to create a black hole, not to shoot energy and whatever happens happens. His intent is defined as wanting to create a black hole. That is, by definition, not a side-effect. A side effect would be if it wasn't what he wanted to do. I already informed you what side effect means, goob:

side effect is an effect, whether therapeutic or adverse, that is secondary to the one intended;

If I shoot you in the head, my intent isn't defined as just wanting to have the bullet leave the gun, and then define it hitting you in the head is a 'side effect'.

This is one of the stupidest shits I've heard goob, what is wrong with you today?

Is your ego that big that you're willing to go full retarded?

Originally posted by darthgoober
And in my example, the doctor's intent is to cause the person to lose weight but the weightloss is still a side effect of the medication.

No one's saying it's a side effect because it wasn't intended, they're saying it's a side effect because of the roundabout way Surfer did it. He didn't just create a blackhole, he released an energy discharge that resulted in a blackhole. The weight loss isn't a side effect of the medication - if the medication is meant to make him lose weight, and that's what the intention is when taking it, it's a direct effect. A side effect is if it would also make him retarded, or give him cancer.

I've said this many times, but this time I mean it - I can't believe you're not getting this.

Did you take any weight loss pills recently?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Whether or not he did it on purpose doesn't take away from the feat. If he can unleash that much energy, then he can unleash that much energy. That's like trying to downplay a feat where Supes lifts something by saying that he intended to lift it. It would actually be more damning if he DIDN'T mean to do such a thing. Like the time he evolved a planet billion years in moments by trying to put all his energy into healing the planet. Him doing that on accident doesn't mean that he could do such a thing and actually control the process.


It being intentional doesn't take away from the fact that the large black hole was a side effect of his energy discharge. He wanted to release that much energy... and he did it successfully.
Who gives a shit? Some random seekers tanked the blast and flew out of the black hole with no issues.

When Surfer can actually beat someone worth shit with his blasts, then maybe he can at least hurt Superman with his blasts.

Originally posted by darthgoober
As I said, the primary intended purpose of the medication in my example is to treat depression and weightloss is listed as a side effect. Therefor the patients resulting weightloss is still a side effect of the medication. You can in fact, intentionally use side effects. Side effect is defined as secondary to the primary intent. If the intent of the action is to reduce depression , then reducing depression is the direct effect . If the intent of my action isn't to have the patient lose weight , it's called a side effect.

side effect is an effect, whether therapeutic or adverse, that is secondary to the one intended;

What Surfer intended is to create a blackhole. There's nothing secondary about it.

Should we get a mod to rule on this stupid thing you can't understand?

Originally posted by darthgoober
The blackhole was formed because X amount of energy released=blackhold regardless of whether or not a blackhole is desired. The fact that WANTED that effect to happen doesn't change the fact that it's formation was a side effect of X amount of energy being released. It's not a side effect, and you don't know what that word means.

If I splash water on my face with the intent to clean it, my face being clean isn't the side effect.

How many example must I give you before you get it?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who gives a shit? Some random seekers tanked the blast and flew out of the black hole with no issues.

When Surfer can actually beat someone worth shit with his blasts, then maybe he can at least hurt Superman with his blasts.
He defeated Morg w/Waters of Life with an energy blast.

Also, you should know by now that forum standards aren't your's to dictate. Feats do in fact matter on this forum regardless of your desire to dismiss them, if you don't like then take it up with those who're actually in charge.

Surfer can't lose.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He defeated Morg w/Waters of Life with an energy blast.


Morg wasn't with WOL amp. Even Terrax fought Morg for several pages after his resurrection.

Morg is less powerful than Surfer and even then he had to go all out and Morg unleashing his own power to beat him.

That's one win out of what, two thousand comics Surfer appeared in?

He couldn't even beat Thing with his energy blasts just recently.

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just showing them in proportion to the other characters capabilities.

Surfer creating black holes is worth less than nothing when you know it can't take out cannon fodder seekers.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer can't lose.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey if you want to try to get a mod to rule on the semantics at play then feel free to do so.

Tell me this though, if you don't like the phrase "side effect" being used then what would you suggest to describe creating the black hole as the byproduct of an energy discharge? Hey there we go, will byproduct make you happy? What about "after effect"? Because simply saying that he created a blackhole makes it sound as though he just shot a blackhole out of his hands which doesn't reflect accurately upon the feat and if there's not a phrase that's actually more fitting than side effect then side affect is as good a description as any and there's no reason to avoid using it.
It's not that I don't like it - it's that it's wrong. The fact that we had a whole page of discussion about this is quite tragic. You could have went 'you're right, it's not the best way to describe it' and that would be that, but you're unable to have a discussion where you admit you're wrong, making this rather sad.

Saying he created a blackhole isn't 'like saying he shot one out of his hand', anymore than saying Firestorm creating salt means 'he shot salt out of his hand'. Jesus. F*cking. Christ. Goober.

This is all just splitting hairs but a side effect can also be defined as just a secondary effect, without discussing intention.

Surfer didn't handcraft a black hole or whatever, he released an energy discharge big enough to create a black hole as a side effect of being discharged

Obviously the black hole creation was the secondary effect of Surfer's action, given that the massive energy blast was the primary effect. It's worth specifying, because it makes the feat more impressive, given that he both casually and indirectly created the black hole.

Insisting that it comes down to intention is just cherry picking definitions of side effect.

Originally posted by Smurph
Obviously the black hole creation was the secondary effect of Surfer's action, given that the massive energy blast was the primary effect. If I extend my fist to punch you in the face, is you getting punched in the face a side-effect and my fist being extended a primary effect?

Originally posted by Smurph
Insisting that it comes down to intention is just cherry picking definitions of side effect. It's literally defined by it being intent, so this is quite the stupid thing to say.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/side--effect

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/side%20effect

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/side-effect

This is how a black hole is created by a side effect and actually defeats someone..

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh right, GLs have never created black holes by sheer blasting.

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30863878_Darkstars_1992_24_-_21.jpg

A random Darkstar and a random GL create a black hole and actually kill Krona in his entropy form.

Heh, Surfer wishes he could be as powerful as GL eh?

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not "wrong" unless there's a more fitting way to describe it. If there's not, then there's nothing wrong with the description. Are you, like, going to just ignore this part:
Saying he created a blackhole isn't 'like saying he shot one out of his hand', anymore than saying Firestorm creating salt means 'he shot salt out of his hand'. Jesus. F*cking. Christ. Goober.

Or are you going to feign you didn't just say something incredibly stupid?

Originally posted by Smurph
This is all just splitting hairs but a side effect can also be defined as just a secondary effect, without discussing intention.

Surfer didn't handcraft a black hole or whatever, he released an energy discharge big enough to create a black hole as a side effect of being discharged

Obviously the black hole creation was the secondary effect of Surfer's action, given that the massive energy blast was the primary effect. It's worth specifying, because it makes the feat more impressive, given that he both casually and indirectly created the black hole.

Insisting that it comes down to intention is just cherry picking definitions of side effect.
This is plainly stated wrong as Surfer was generating a black hole specifically.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/avhhd3.jpg

Can't get any clearer than that.

By the same way he has beat characters way beyond surfer, many times in his almost 80 years of existence.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Morg wasn't with WOL amp. Even Terrax fought Morg for several pages after his resurrection.

Morg is less powerful than Surfer and even then he had to go all out and Morg unleashing his own power to beat him.

That's one win out of what, two thousand comics Surfer appeared in?

He couldn't even beat Thing with his energy blasts just recently.

I'm not dismissing anything. I'm just showing them in proportion to the other characters capabilities.

Surfer creating black holes is worth less than nothing when you know it can't take out cannon fodder seekers.
Morg still had the WOL till the whole thing with Tyrant. It became less powerful over time, but some of it still remained.

Direct character showings are frequently subject to some level of PIS, uber feats are what seperate the mid heralds from the high heralds. It's why Thor and Superman are in a tier above BRB and Captain Marvel on KMC.

Originally posted by Smurph
If you punch me in the face with your fist because you wanted to give me a black eye, it's both correct to say "Phil gave me a black eye" and "As a side effect of Phil's punch, I got a black eye".

Just depends what you want to emphasize, and it doesn't depend on whether or not you cared more about giving me a black eye than punching me with your fist.

If I wanted to give you a black eye and punched you in it, is the black eye a side effect, or the primary effect of what I wanted?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Firestorm creating salt is a matter of transmutation, the blackhole was specifically attributed to an energy discharge by Surfer... not the same thing.

I take it you're as good at physics as you are at knowing what words mean.

Take a hike, read how black holes are created, then come back to me.

Hey Smurph how you doing? Been a while...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Morg still had the WOL till the whole thing with Tyrant. It became less powerful over time, but some of it still remained.


No, he didn't. The writer didn't take it into account and there is no mention of it in any issues Morg appeared in.

And Uber feats are what separates Superman from high heralds. He is in a league of his own.

Thor is wrongly placed above BRB. Superman is and always was above Cap when he actually cuts loose and has defeated Captain Marvel straight up and almost beat him to death.

Surfer just doesn't has the quality or quantity of Superman's high end feats. Superman's average is Surfer's high end feats.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he didn't. The writer didn't take it into account and there is no mention of it in any issues Morg appeared in.

And Uber feats are what separates Superman from high heralds. He is in a league of his own.

Thor is wrongly placed above BRB. Superman is and always was above Cap when he actually cuts loose and has defeated Captain Marvel straight up and almost beat him to death.

Surfer just doesn't has the quality or quantity of Superman's high end feats. Superman's average is Surfer's high end feats.
He still had it when the whole Tyrant thing went down. Consider it a retcon if you like, but it's still accurate to say that he beat Morg w/WOL because the recton deemed it to be so.

As for the rest... blah, blah, blah... feats still hold significant weight on KMC. If you don't like it, try to get the mods to change it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He still had it when the whole Tyrant thing went down. Consider it a retcon if you like, but it's still actuat to say that he beat Morg w/WOL because the recton deemed it to be so.


Yeah, I need to see this retcon before you go any further.



Yeah, they do. Just not as much as you think. Surfer can't even singe Superman's hair by feats if you want to go by that route.

Superman has actually tanked a black hole that was pulling whole multiverse in. Try to beat that if you want.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know how THAT black hole was created... because of Surfer's energy discharge. It's right there on panel.
Which he intentionally generated to create a black hole.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know how THAT black hole was created... because of Surfer's energy discharge. It's right there on panel. Black holes aren't created by shooting energy randomly. It involves compression of matter.

Like I said, this is another topic you're clueless. Read on it, then come back.

oh man, i cannot wait to read through this thread... the desire to read is nearly enough to make me late for my own bday celebration.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I need to see this retcon before you go any further.



Yeah, they do. Just not as much as you think. Surfer can't even singe Superman's hair by feats if you want to go by that route.

Superman has actually tanked a black hole that was pulling whole multiverse in. Try to beat that if you want.
Talk to Ambient, he's the one who pointed it out to me a while back.

And hey, I haven't been trying to compare Supes and Surfer in this thread, I've only been addressing Surfer's feat. Then you chimed in with your typical "feats aren't what matter" type of arguement and here we are.

Happy Birthday you old coot.

uhuh

Originally posted by leonidas
oh man, i cannot wait to read through this thread... the desire to read is nearly enough to make me late for my own bday celebration. Happy Birthday, leo

Originally posted by RadZoa
How can a bloodlusted Superman beat a bloodlusted Silver Surfer?
By punching him in the face, duh.
Originally posted by Surtur
Why wouldn't a bloodlusted Surfer just create kryptonite? Or red sun radiation? Or both?
Kryptonite not native to Superman's universe has been shown to be ineffective. Even if Surfer could make it work, he'd have to do it while getting punched in the face.

Red sun radiation is not an insta-lose for Supes. He's flown through Krypton's red sun before ffs.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Talk to Ambient, he's the one who pointed it out to me a while back.


I debunked Roldz claim a few years back actually. I know everything about that claim.

Yeah, random feats don't matter in large scale of things. Even in the same series we see Surfer going all out against T&A and no black holes are created or he even managed to do anything to them.

Only relative performance matters and Surfer is piss poor in that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I debunked Roldz claim a few years back actually. I know everything about that claim.

Yeah, random feats don't matter in large scale of things. Even in the same series we see Surfer going all out against T&A and no black holes are created or he even managed to do anything to them.

Only relative performance matters and Surfer is piss poor in that.
You refusing to acknowledge the validity isn't the same as "debunking".

Not on KMC. On KMC feats matter and since this is the place where the debates are taking place that's just the way is whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey Smurph how you doing? Been a while... Pretty good! You?

It has been... I was gone for a bit, and I wasn't sure if you were still lurking here or not. Originally posted by leonidas
oh man, i cannot wait to read through this thread... the desire to read is nearly enough to make me late for my own bday celebration. Happy birthday... don't party too late, old man. woot

Originally posted by Smurph
You really helped clear up that Surfer generated a black hole... as a secondary effect to his energy discharge.



Except it was stated as his main goal.

It didn't say he discharged energy in honor of Airwalker. It says he "generated " a black hole.

Let me know if you want to understand what the bolded part means.

Originally posted by Smurph
Pretty good! You?

It has been... I was gone for a bit, and I wasn't sure if you were still lurking here or not. Happy birthday... don't party too late, old man. woot
Yup I still like to lurk, me going back to actually bothing to chime in my 2 cents is still a relatively recent even though. Most of the time it's not worth the trouble.

Someone want to post actual scans of the entire black hole incident?

Not that it really matters as Superman has held a black hole in his hands.

Originally posted by Smurph
The black hole was an accompanying, consequential effect of an energy blast. It's worth specifying that the black hole was an accompanying, consequential effect of a different action that Surfer took because, intended or otherwise, it emphasizes that the black hole was created indirectly, and therefore with greater ease.

Man, if only we had a word for that.... mmm The Surfer wanted to create a blackhole, and the energy blast was specifically for that purpose. If the sole purpose of the energy discharge is to create a black hole, that is its primary effect, and not a side-effect.

I'll ask you the question again, try not to dodge it this time, smurphy:
If I wanted to give you a black eye and punched you in it, is the black eye a side effect, or the primary effect of what I wanted?

I just wanted to wish an happy birthday to Leonidas.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You refusing to acknowledge the validity isn't the same as "debunking".


I don't do you. There is literally nothing that indicates Morg had WOL.

Roldz being a silver surfer fanboy latched to an imaginary argument and then ran away.

In hindsight he is your colleague after all.

Oh I like it. That's why I know Superman can not be even hurt by Surfer because he tanked a multiversal black hole.

But wait, that does not matters, right? Only surfer gets the high end feats. All others are done by averages? Right?

@abhi..

Here is a couple energy blast use by Surfer In defeating his opponents.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/th_IMG_0541.jpg

And yes that's Morg with WOL, the same Morg that survive the ultimate Nullifier.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/th_IMG_0547.jpg

The same Champion that walk through Thanos blast, should be how he is written.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/th_IMG_0549.jpg

Then there is also this, the same guy that survive said so black hole.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/th_IMG_0546.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except it was stated as his main goal.

It didn't say he discharged energy in honor of Airwalker. It says he "generated " a black hole.

Let me know if you want to understand what the bolded part means. Surfer generates a black hole to honor his friend's passing...that obviously means he didn't intend it, and it was just a side effect!

~ Smurph

Since we're on birthday theme, it's like saying somebody lighting the candles of Leo's cake would be a side-effect of the fire.

Originally posted by Cogito
Someone want to post actual scans of the entire black hole incident?

Not that it really matters as Superman has held a black hole in his hands.
Here.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=641900&pagenumber=1#post16177954

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't do you. There is literally nothing that indicates Morg had WOL.

Roldz being a silver surfer fanboy latched to an imaginary argument and then ran away.

In hindsight he is your colleague after all.

Oh I like it. That's why I know Superman can not be even hurt by Surfer because he tanked a multiversal black hole.

But wait, that does not matters, right? Only surfer gets the high end feats. All others are done by averages? Right?
Again, I haven't even mentioned Supes's feats. I'm simply pointing out that feats matter on KMC despite your desire to say that they don't.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't do you. There is literally nothing that indicates Morg had WOL.

Roldz being a silver surfer fanboy latched to an imaginary argument and then ran away.

In hindsight he is your colleague after all.

Oh I like it. That's why I know Superman can not be even hurt by Surfer because he tanked a multiversal black hole.

But wait, that does not matters, right? Only surfer gets the high end feats. All others are done by averages? Right?
Nothing imaginary about it bru, I posted a scan about it a while back and it was in the Annihilation story and also in Morgs annihilation bio.

Originally posted by Ambient
@abhi..

Here is a couple energy blast use by Surfer In defeating his opponents.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/RRoldz/th_IMG_0541.jpg

And yes that's Morg with WOL, the same Morg that survive the ultimate Nullifier.


Hahaha, what? Thing and Spider-Man have survived Ultimate Nullifier as well.

Surfer and Morg's combined blast defeated Morg as Morg was already dazed when he crash landed on the planet.

LMAO, what? Are you back for your yearly ass whooping?

That's Champion before he got the power gem. In fact he got the gem at the end of the arc in SS v3 18. Are you really that desperate?

Surfer didn't even ko Ravenous AFTER he killed his curr.

Don't send a surfer to do a ronan's job.

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23365410_Annihilation5-020-1.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23365411_Annihilation5-021-1.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23365412_Annihilation5-022-1-1.jpg

That's some black hole level attack right there.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, I haven't even mentioned Supes's feats. I'm simply pointing out that feats matter on KMC despite your desire to say that they don't.
Except when they suit your agenda, they don't.

Originally posted by Smurph
If you punched me in the face, no, I don't think that I would describe the black eye as the primary effect of the punch, even if it was your priority, or the only effect you cared about causing.

I would tell you that the primary effect would probably be pain.

Why is it a side-effect, when the intent of my action is specifically for that effect?

Tell me, smurphy, what is the primary effect of Silver Surfer's blast, so that the side-effect is the black hole?

Originally posted by Smurph
Obviously this is all a matter of perspective, which brings us back the point: it's worth specifying that the black hole was an "accompanying, consequential effect", because it underlines that Surfer created it in a roundabout way, which emphasizes the ease with which he did it. It offers that perspective.


How would he do it in a non-roundabout way?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yup I still like to lurk, me going back to actually bothing to chime in my 2 cents is still a relatively recent even though. Most of the time it's not worth the trouble.

I'm not around super often anymore but I visit sometimes. Probably whenever I get a break between school or work projects.

Originally posted by Cogito
Someone want to post actual scans of the entire black hole incident?

Not that it really matters as Superman has held a black hole in his hands. Don't reopen that Pandora's can of worms

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except when they suit your agenda, they don't.


No they always matter to some degree, just like character comparisons. I freely acknowledge that basically everything in comics has to be taken with a grain of salt, but that's far different than suggesting that either category isn't worth considering.

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, I've been helping Phil with definitions, so I got you covered on this one: generated does not mean 'main goal'.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/generated


Except when it's the only thing mentioned as a product.

Surfer didn't "generate" an energy blast, he "generated" a black hole.

If you want, I can make it even simpler smurphy.

Except that's just contradictory. But at least you amended that the creation of the black hole was main goal.

It's a start.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except when it's the only thing mentioned as a product.

Surfer didn't "generate" an energy blast, he "generated" a black hole.

If you want, I can make it even simpler smurphy.

Except that's just contradictory. But at least you amended that the creation of the black hole was main goal.

It's a start.
Read what Thanos said, the black hole was brought about by Surfer's energy discharge.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Are you really still railing against the term? You offered to get a mod ruling on it and I said I was totally cool with that. Go ahead and get their input on the matter. I'll get to that, after I make Smurph look stupid for a bit.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Read what Thanos said, the black hole was brought about by Surfer's energy discharge. What's the primary effect of the energy discharge?

Couldn't there be some rules to use this feats weather they are myth or not.

First to see if they are true and then to be accepted on the forum as a rule?

Try to debunk or prove a feat pro side makes case, con side makes case, get some judges and see if the feat will be used in the forum.

Originally posted by Ambient
Nothing imaginary about it bru, I posted a scan about it a while back and it was in the Annihilation story and also in Morgs annihilation bio.
Except it doesn't matches the story.

A bio doesn't retcon what's on panel. WOL Morg wouldn't struggle against Terrax twice. Originally posted by darthgoober
No they always matter to some degree, just like character comparisons. I freely acknowledge that basically everything in comics has to be taken with a grain of salt, but that's far different than suggesting that either category isn't worth considering.
So it doesn't matters when it suits you.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Read what Thanos said, the black hole was brought about by Surfer's energy discharge.
Nobody said otherwise doofus.

Originally posted by darthgoober
An explosion Surfer wanted to create an explosion, not a black hole?

Originally posted by darthgoober
An explosion
Which didn't happen. We see debris sucked in and not flying outwards like other explosion he caused.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Here.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=641900&pagenumber=1#post16177954

Got it. Seems to be the complete scene, unless someone wants to throw in some additional context.

This is clearly, and I mean clearly, the intended effect Surfer was going for.

I think the language confusion people are experiencing is the difference between "side effect" and "consequence".

To be clear, this is not a "side effect", which is by definition a secondary effect which is further implied to be negative. Secondary being not primary, and primary being the intended effect.

This is a "consequence", which is defined by being the result of something. A consequence is often thought of as carrying a negative connotation, such as "if you commit a crime, there will be legal consequences", but a consequence is not limited by its definition to being negative. A consequence of drinking milk may be stronger bones. A consequence of doing extra work may be a promotion. A consequence of a large energy discharge may be a black hole (in Marvel anyways, **** physics).

But anyways, **** all y'all, getting caught up in semantics

Originally posted by Cogito
Got it. Seems to be the complete scene, unless someone wants to throw in some additional context.

This is clearly, and I mean clearly, the intended effect Surfer was going for.

I think the language confusion people are experiencing is the difference between "side effect" and "consequence".

To be clear, this is not a "side effect", which is by definition a secondary effect which is further implied to be negative. Secondary being not primary, and primary being the intended effect.

This is a "consequence", which is defined by being the result of something. A consequence is often thought of as carrying a negative connotation, such as "if you commit a crime, there will be legal consequences", but a consequence is not limited by its definition to being negative. A consequence of drinking milk may be stronger bones. A consequence of doing extra work may be a promotion. A consequence of a large energy discharge may be a black hole (in Marvel anyways, **** physics).

But anyways, **** all y'all, getting caught up in semantics Nah, bro, you're wrong.

Goober and Smurph am zmart.

Originally posted by Smurph
A massive energy discharge, obviously. Which is why Thanos said that the black hole was "brought about by Surfer's blast" or w/e
So the primary effect of the massive energy discharge is what, if the side effect is the black hole?

Originally posted by Smurph


Hahaha what?

Of course he did.
Except he didn't. That's what the recap says.

Don't tell me you didn't read that . Do I need to put some reading glasses there?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So it doesn't matters when it suits you.

Gotcha.
lol Relatively little of what's discussed on the forum is definitive, it always boils down to a subject interpretation of things. That's why this is a debate forum rather than a "everybody chime in and say the exact same thing" forum. There are things that I ignore in accordance with my interpretation of the rules of the forum and there are things I recognize for the same reason.

Originally posted by Smurph
A massive energy discharge

A massive energy discharge is an action (a verb), and not an effect (a noun)

Originally posted by darthgoober
lol Relatively little of what's discussed on the forum is definitive, it always boils down to a subject interpretation of things. That's why this is a debate forum rather than a "everybody chime in and say the exact same thing" forum. There are things that I ignore in accordance with my interpretation of the rules of the forum and there are things I recognize for the same reason.
So it matters for Surfer and not for Superman?

Gotcha.

Discharge.

Huehuhehuehue

Originally posted by abhilegend
Which didn't happen. We see debris sucked in and not flying outwards like other explosion he caused.
Nonsense.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except he didn't. That's what the recap says.

Don't tell me you didn't read that . Do I need to put some reading glasses there? Do you know what it means to generate something?

Originally posted by Cogito
A massive energy discharge is an action (a verb), and not an effect (a noun) Uh, no, not necessarily.

You can have electrical discharge, bodily discharge, etc. Edit: Which, to specify, are nouns.

In this sense, 'discharge' is synonymous with 'blast'

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer wanted to create and explosion which would result in a black hole being formed. So the purpose of his energy discharge was to create a blackhole?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So it matters for Surfer and not for Superman?

Gotcha.
Strawman, that's not what I'm suggesting by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol so bringing up a feat is trolling?

It's a fair feat to bring up, but Superman has survived black holes before and held one in his hands, so it's not the most impressive against this opponent.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It was the intended end result, yes. If the purpose of the blast was solely to create a black hole, why is it a side effect?

Originally posted by Cogito
It's a fair feat to bring up, but Superman has survived black holes before and held one in his hands, so it's not the most impressive against this opponent.

True, but this was in response to Surfer supposedly having "weak" blasts.

Originally posted by Smurph
Do you know what it means to generate something?

Uh, no, not necessarily.

You can have electrical discharge, bodily discharge, etc. Edit: Which, to specify, are nouns.

In this sense, 'discharge' is synonymous with 'blast'
Yes.

Do you?

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's a side effect of a blast that big. When people use "side effect" they're not commenting on Surfer's intent, they're commenting on the result of a blast that large. If the intended and sole outcome of a blast that large is a black hole, why call it a side effect, and not a direct effect of Surfer's intentions when creating a 'blast that big'

Originally posted by darthgoober
Nonsense.


Point out where that big explosion was wise guy?

http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Philosophia/media/Annihilation%20-%20Silver%20Surfer%20001-015_zpsniymprhk.jpg.html

The debris are sucked in not flying outwards.

Originally posted by Smurph
I know it's not your fault but it's frustrating that I can't easily quote you when I quote other people. Argh.

Anyways, he intended to cause an explosion that would bring about a blackhole as a consequence. Originally posted by abhilegend


Point out where that big explosion was wise guy?

http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Philosophia/media/Annihilation%20-%20Silver%20Surfer%20001-015_zpsniymprhk.jpg.html

The debris are sucked in not flying outwards.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes.

Do you? http://www.dictionary.com/browse/generated



Did Surfer generate an energy discharge, Abhi?

Originally posted by Smurph
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/generated



Did Surfer generate an energy discharge, Abhi?


Did he now? Why wasn't it mentioned on the recap?

They should have just mentioned he 'generated' a big explosion.

Originally posted by Smurph
Anyways, he intended to cause an explosion that would bring about a blackhole as a consequence. So when he discharged the blast, the purpose was to create a black hole. If the effect of his action was a black hole , what was the primary effect?

I'd also like you to expand on how this is a 'roundabout way', how do you define direct way, and why the 'roundabout way' is more impressive. All of which you've dodge, by the way.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Point out where that big explosion was wise guy?

http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Philosophia/media/Annihilation%20-%20Silver%20Surfer%20001-015_zpsniymprhk.jpg.html

The debris are sucked in not flying outwards.
Definately looks to be flying outwards to me. And any ambiguity of the artwork should be stiffled by the fact that it's an energy "discharge"

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because no one wants to type that damn much every time they bring up the feat when there's nothing expressly wrong with using "side effect"(as Smurph pointed out, intent is never mentioned in the definition) and people understand what's being said when the term is used. Intent is never mentioned in the definition? Goober, goober, why are you lying like this?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/side--effect
quote:
any effect of a drug, chemical, or other medicine that is in addition to its intended effect

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dic...y/side%20effect
quote:
: a result of an action that is not expected or intended

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...ish/side-effect
quote:
an unpleasant effect of a drug that happens in addition to the main effect

The end-result that Surfer wanted was to have a black hole. His energy discharge was to reach that purpose. Thus the main effect of his action was the black hole. It was expected and it was intended - by definition it's not a side-effect. There is no 'side effect'.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Definately looks to be flying outwards to me. And any ambiguity of the artwork should be stiffled by the fact that it's an energy "discharge"


The speed lines are drawn towards the center. Don't tell me you can't even see that.

The debris are sucked in, not flying outwards. The sheer stupidity here is mind boggling

facepalm

My two favorite things about this discussion:

1. Nobody ****ing cares about the semantics of the feat. Surfer created a black hole, and that's all that matters.

2. The truth of it is that the explosion is a side effect of creating a black hole. Now follow along here: The black hole is a consequence of an explosion which was a consequence of Surfer energy discharge. But, since the black hole is the primary intended effect, that makes the explosion the secondary or side effect of creating a black hole not the black hole itself. English is a *****.

Anyway, I will ask for a mod rulling. This is the most useless discussion I've ever had on this forum, and it's already 7 pages.

Originally posted by Cogito
My two favorite things about this discussion:

1. Nobody ****ing cares about the semantics of the feat. Surfer created a black hole, and that's all that matters.

2. The truth of it is that the explosion is a side effect of creating a black hole. Now follow along here: The black hole is a consequence of an explosion which was a consequence of Surfer energy discharge. But, since the black hole is the primary intended effect, that makes the explosion the secondary or side effect of creating a black hole not the black hole itself. English is a *****.

People here pretend that calling it 'side effect' intrinsically makes it more impressive.

Originally posted by abhilegend


The speed lines are drawn towards the center. Don't tell me you can't even see that.

The debris are sucked in, not flying outwards. The sheer stupidity here is mind boggling

facepalm
There are no speedlines beyond those generated by Surfer. We do see the travel path of the asteroids and such, but to me it definately looks like they're flying outward. That's why the ones in front of Surfer are motionless, because he's flying in front of the shockwave

Originally posted by Cogito
My two favorite things about this discussion:

1. Nobody ****ing cares about the semantics of the feat. Surfer created a black hole, and that's all that matters.

2. The truth of it is that the explosion is a side effect of creating a black hole. Now follow along here: The black hole is a consequence of an explosion which was a consequence of Surfer energy discharge. But, since the black hole is the primary intended effect, that makes the explosion the secondary or side effect of creating a black hole not the black hole itself. English is a *****.
That's like lining 5 dominoes up in a row, pushing the one in front to knock them down, and saying that the first fell as a side effect of the last one falling. It's simply not the case.

Did someone post the relevant scan of the black hole creation in this thread?

Originally posted by abhilegend


Did he now? Why wasn't it mentioned on the recap?

They should have just mentioned he 'generated' a big explosion. Oh no, I'm just asking you for your take:

Did Surfer generate an energy discharge? Not per the recap, just per English.

----

That said I'm also happy to leave things here. I think it's not incorrect to describe it either as the intended effect, or as a side effect of his energy discharge, and the 'more correct' version really depends on what you're trying to emphasize.

It's one thing to say that Surfer is powerful enough to create a black hole, it's another to say that he can, with relative ease, produce an energy discharge large enough to bring about a black hole. I think that the second is more impressive, and I get that this feat is already loaded with space cheese, but these are comics, so...

Calling it "side effect" makes it sound more of what it is. As if it was casually and campy.

But is not the first time Surfer feats get that extra wording spice to try to make them look more of what they are. IMO

a E2 .

Originally posted by -Pr-
Did someone post the relevant scan of the black hole creation in this thread?
Yes. Most of the arguement at this point is whether or not it's horribly misleading to say that the formation of the black hole that resulted from Surfer's energy discharge was a side effect of said blast. Yes, that's seriously what Phil and abhi are freaking out about. So does such a statement qualify as lying/trolling by your definition?

Originally posted by Smurph
It's one thing to say that Surfer is powerful enough to create a black hole, it's another to say that he can, with relative ease, produce an energy discharge large enough to bring about a black hole. I think that the second is more impressive, and I get that this feat is already loaded with space cheese, but these are comics, so... The latter statement is true also

http://i65.tinypic.com/if0vnk.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's like lining 5 dominoes up in a row, pushing the one in front to knock them down, and saying that the first fell as a side effect of the last one falling. It's simply not the case. You're thinking about it wrong. The first falling is not a side effect of the last one falling, it's a side effect of the process that knocks down the last one.

Or you can look at it as a series of events rather than a single event. In that case, you don't have any side effects. The primary (intended) effect of your tap (or whatever) is to knock down domino #1 with the primary (intended) effect of knocking down #2 and so on. No side effects.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey I'm going back and forth between what you and abhi said, I'm not pretending that I'm closely following what's going on between you and Smurph as I'm only reading it in passing. I thought that's what he said and posted proof to support it, but it's entirely possible that I misread what was going on. The 'problem' is basically that there are multiple definitions. Some of them specifically refer to medicine, etc. What's out of scope for one definition (intentional consequence) isn't out of scope for others.

Originally posted by Cogito
You're thinking about it wrong. The first falling is not a side effect of the last one falling, it's a side effect of the process that knocks down the last one.

Or you can look at it as a series of events rather than a single event. In that case, you don't have any side effects. The primary (intended) effect of your tap (or whatever) is to knock down domino #1 with the primary (intended) effect of knocking down #2 and so on. No side effects.
Let's face it, the battle over semantics will likely be put to rest one way or the other once Pr chimes in again and not before, we might as well just wait for him to make a ruling on it.

Let's face it, the battle over semantics is just a bunch of bored people. The truth is Surfer created a black hole with little effort and the rest doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Cogito
Let's face it, the battle over semantics is just a bunch of bored people. The truth is Surfer created a black hole with little effort and the rest doesn't matter. I mean... yeah, this is true.

Originally posted by Cogito
Let's face it, the battle over semantics is just a bunch of bored people. The truth is Surfer created a black hole with little effort and the rest doesn't matter.
Hey I agree, it's a dumb arguement. It's the ones flipping out over it being referred to as a side effect that seem to think it's actually a big deal. It's not like those citing the feat are trying to pretend that it was an accident, it's those on the other side that seem to think it's being portrayed as such and are outraged by it. As if it being accidental would bolster the feat somehow... whether accident or intentional the same theoretical amount of energy would be required to accomplish it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hahaha, what? Thing and Spider-Man have survived Ultimate Nullifier as well.

Surfer and Morg's combined blast defeated Morg as Morg was already dazed when he crash landed on the planet.

LMAO, what? Are you back for your yearly ass whooping?

Surfer didn't even ko Ravenous AFTER he killed his curr.

Don't send a surfer to do a ronan's job.


Morg's own energy is damaging him "what" now??

U ask, I give u some answer but of course u have to downplay every single feat examples given ? lol's anyhow! Really am not in any mood for a debate, it's a nice day.. aribarachi! Keep on posting!

Originally posted by Ambient
Morg's own energy is damaging him "what" now??

U ask, I give u some answer but of course u have to downplay every single feat examples given ? lol's anyhow! Really am not in any mood for a debate, it's a nice day.. aribarachi! Keep on posting!
Yeah if anything, Morg putting out energy of his own actually increases the impressiveness of the feat because it means that Surfer put out enough power to overwelm Morg's energy with enough left over to KO him.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
The latter statement is true also

http://i65.tinypic.com/if0vnk.jpg

I would love to see this Surfer. He'd wreck shop.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes. Most of the arguement at this point is whether or not it's horribly misleading to say that the formation of the black hole that resulted from Surfer's energy discharge was a side effect of said blast. Yes, that's seriously what Phil and abhi are freaking out about. So does such a statement qualify as lying/trolling by your definition?

You don't think there's an argument there?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah if anything, Morg putting out energy of his own actually increases the impressiveness of the feat because it means that Surfer put out enough power to overwelm Morg's energy with enough left over to KO him.
Pretty much but knowing Abhi, his probably got fackap way to downplay the feat.

Anyhow nice to see u around Darth..

I can't see the Surfer beating Superman in a brawl, but then again who ever said that it had to devolve into a brawl? The Surfer literally has the power to remove Superman's power's altogether by messing with his DNA. He has altered the Hulk in the past, and has altered Lunatik as well. Nothing would stop him from altering Superman unless he decided against it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You don't think there's an argument there?
Not one that's actually worth having, it's simply nit picking over semantics by my way of thinking. It's not as though there aren't definitions of the phrase "side effect" that don't mention intent as a factor(Smurph posted them), and it's not as if anyone is actually trying to suggest that it was an accident in the first place. They're using "side effect" as a way to denote that the blackhole was created as a result of the magnitude of the blast released by Surfer rather than having it sound as if Surfer simply waved his hand and create one via transmutation the way that Stardust seemed to without having to provide an extended description of the feat. Simply applying a different definition of the phrase(which IS recognized in the links Smurph posted) than Phil or Abhi would prefer to use certainly doesn't seem to qualify as trolling or lying.

Writers often feel free to get fancy and 'realistic' when characters are beating on someone they would destroy based on raw power alone.

But how often does a Surfer get insta-wins off other elite top tiers using his powers exotically? That's rare, because comics be comics.

If we want to try to argue this realistically, then it depends how realistic you wanna get. But we can't be too realistic as we don't understand the limits of the heroes' powers with anything like scientific detail.

That said, if being as realistic as we can, then it's probably possible to infer super speed reactions to Surfer. So all he has to do is stop time the moment the fight starts to beat the speed blitz. Or do a million other things. Basically comes down to the fight rules and whether you think Surfer can react at all before getting KOed by a super speed blitz. But such a fight is so far removed from a typical comic that it really isn't worth postulating.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not one that's actually worth having, it's simply nit picking over semantics by my way of thinking. It's not as though there aren't definitions of the phrase "side effect" that don't mention intent as a factor(Smurph posted them), and it's not as if anyone is actually trying to suggest that it was an accident in the first place. They're using "side effect" as a way to denote that the blackhole was created as a result of the magnitude of the blast released by Surfer rather than having it sound as if Surfer simply waved his hand and create one via transmutation the way that Stardust seemed to without having to provide an extended description of the feat. Simply applying a different definition of the phrase(which IS recognized in the links Smurph posted) than Phil or Abhi would prefer to use certainly doesn't seem to qualify as trolling or lying.

And what's the point of this argument? I mean, I've seen the scans, so I'm wondering what the importance of it all is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
And what's the point of this argument? I mean, I've seen the scans, so I'm wondering what the importance of it all is.
I told you, the primary arguement taking place is seriously whether or not it's inherently wrong to describe the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast. I wasn't misleading you to make the argument of the opposition out as trivial, I was being literal. Surt described the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast, detract Jun pointed out that the blackhole was created intentionally, I pointed out that it didn't matter that Surfer wanted to create the blackhole because the feat was creating the thing as a side effect of an energy discharge not doing it by accident, then Phil started insisting that it couldn't be described as a side effect because Surfer wanted the blackhole, and that's what the thread has mostly been about for the last 8 pages.

The secondary arguement is abhi saying that feats don't matter.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I told you, the primary arguement taking place is seriously whether or not it's inherently wrong to describe the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast. I wasn't trying to make the argument out as trivial, I was being literal. Surt described the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast, detract Jun pointed out that the blackhole was created intentionally, I pointed out that it didn't matter that Surfer wanted to create the blackhole because the feat was creating the thing as a side effect of an energy discharge, then Phil started insisting that it couldn't be described as a side effect because Surfer wanted the blackhole, and that's what the thread has mostly been about for the last 8 pages.

The secondary arguement is abhi saying that feats don't matter.

I should rephrase then: Why is this argument happening? What relevance does it have to the thread?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I should rephrase then: Why is this argument happening? What relevance does it have to the thread?
Because the issue has basically become whether or not people who describe the blackhole as a side effect are lying trolls. Your presence was sought by Phil for you to force anyone from describing the blackhole as such to stop it. Seriously, just look on page 2 6 posts down(I can't quote phil cause of his name) and you'll see.