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Ultimates 2 #6 is out and The First Firmament has officially revealed himself and his past. Link to the comic.

Who wins?

Old news, brah.


First off, a war between the two factions of Celestials shattered the FF's totality into hundreds of weaker shards:
http://i.imgur.com/uvbfri0m.jpg http://i.imgur.com/gvWMKXgm.jpg

If a Celestial-war had such a profound effect on the FF, I can't even imagine what current Owen would do to it. ermmnone


Secondly, even though the FF's power had grown since its time in the void, it still had to wait until Eternity was weakened by the creation-altering events of Secret Wars, in order to overpower/imprison him:
http://i.imgur.com/1bS0Itpm.jpg

...This implies that the FF is weaker than a healthy/full-power Eternity. So there again, I can't even imagine what current Owen would do to it. ermmnone

I'd argue the powers of the first firmament aren't that clear cut, though. For example, even TFF's celestial servants are capable of corrupting Logos, the stand in for the LT, who oneshotted 7-8 "multicolored" Celestials casually. Furthermore, it's implied that TFF is the only being capable of "chaining" Eternity:

By FF's own accord, he specifically waited until Eternity was weakened by the events of Secret Wars before making his move -- this alone implies that he is sub-Eternity-level, imo. Moreover, we've seen what the 'instability' of this new cosmology can allow for...*cough*Order & Chaos killed LT*cough*...So that could certainly be playing a part as well.

There's also the fact Everything else in Marvel came from here as well.

Also said to be the first iteration of the cosmos as well if that means anything.

Originally posted by Galan007
By FF's own accord, he specifically waited until Eternity was weakened by the events of Secret Wars before making his move -- this alone implies that he is sub-Eternity-level, imo. Moreover, we've seen what the 'instability' of this new cosmology can allow for...*cough*Order & Chaos killed LT*cough*...So that could certainly be playing a part as well.

Except I would argue that TFF waiting for Eternity to be weakened doesn't alone imply that Eternity > TFF. TFF waited for Eternity to be weakened so that he could easily corrupt the cosmic hierarchy and chain him without effort. As TFF himself says, he waited "until weak, and easily captured."

Also, there still isn't much getting around the fact that TFF is stated to be "the one being who could chain Eternity."

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except I would argue that TFF waiting for Eternity to be weakened doesn't alone imply that Eternity > TFF. TFF waited for Eternity to be weakened so that he could easily corrupt the cosmic hierarchy and chain him without effort. As TFF himself says, he waited "until weak, and easily captured." Lol, so like I said: the FF specifically waited until Eternity was weak before he attacked.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, there still isn't much getting around the fact that TFF is stated to be "the one being who could chain Eternity." Since when do comic book solicits/teasers equate to proof? none

Moreover, this is the same unstable cosmology that allowed the likes of Order and Chaos to outright KILL the Living Tribunal, ffs. If THEY can do something like THAT, surely a lesser power could imprison Eternity, no?



*I am not saying the FF is definitely sub-Eternity-level, btw. I am just saying that as of right now, there is no real implication he's above that level -- quite the opposite, in fact. Hopefully that changes, though, because I'd really like him to have some bite with all that bark.

Owen wins. Imo, Beyond realm is outside everything that was "created" by FF.

I feel foolish for making this thread. I know the Beyonders are inconsistent as hell, but there's no getting around the fact that 3 of them solo'd the entire cosmic hierarchy (including a "full power" Eternity,) and that Owen still seems to possess the power of their whole race. Owen should be capable of winning in a snap.

Bumping this thread to ask a question about the last two issues:

We know from the end of issue 8 and issue 9 that Owen is the one who told The Maker/Reed to evolve the Multiverse. We know that this evolution is a trap that will lead Eternity directly into The First Firmament. Does this mean Owen has potentially been corrupted by or works for The First Firmament?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Bumping this thread to ask a question about the last two issues:

We know from the end of issue 8 and issue 9 that Owen is the one who told The Maker/Reed to evolve the Multiverse. We know that this evolution is a trap that will lead Eternity directly into The First Firmament. Does this mean Owen has potentially been corrupted by or works for The First Firmament?

Owen wins . He can hide Multiverse in the box . Muahaha

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Bumping this thread to ask a question about the last two issues:

We know from the end of issue 8 and issue 9 that Owen is the one who told The Maker/Reed to evolve the Multiverse. We know that this evolution is a trap that will lead Eternity directly into The First Firmament. Does this mean Owen has potentially been corrupted by or works for The First Firmament?

I think the Maker might not be being totally honest about Owen telling him anything. All we really know is that Owen split Maker's mind into bodies across the new multiverse so he can make things happen or whatnot, but I think Maker is basically doing his own thing and using that as a reason.

I still think Owen is more powerful than the FF, and the fact he allowed Galactus access to his impenetrable, unobservable dimension to work against the FF means that Maker probably isn't telling the whole truth, seeing as Maker's goals and Galactus' goals are different, and Owen seems to be basically omniscient at this point so he'd know that.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him at all in the conclusion. Then again people keep mentioning him so he might turn up, but I think at this point Owen is very much just not getting involved directly, like he told Galactus in #6 of the first volume.