Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

He doesn't sleep too much. He seems to be intuned with Neo and what is going on with him.

What do you think Council Hamann (Anthony Zerbe) is really all about? Do you think he's working for the A.I. or the Agents? Yes or no?

No

That was short.

No.
But I do think he knows more than what he has said about the truth of the Matrix.

I think that Hamann is working for the AI, more closely than I can explain now. I think that he is down with the machines more than he lets on and may have been instrumental in designing at least one version of the matrix. I also think that he may be the architect.

No, I think he is who he says he is. I think the film is complex enough without needing a twist like that.

But the architect was a program, if he wasnt then Neo would have noticed

its not really a twist. he hints at wanting to live in cooperation with the machines, while talking to NEO in the engineering level. There is more to this guy than is obvious right now.

he may have noticed. he never said either way. that too would make the prophacy bullshit

i doubt it. I agree with ushgarak i think that you are reading to much into it.

Oh, he was only making a point about how humans still need machines and also gently mocking Neo for his belief that control is simply the power to destroy. And finally reminding Neo that you do not need to know WHY to do what needs to be done.

I don;t think there is anything more to it than that.

Another thing to think about... Anthony Zerbe plays alot of low key baddies. That is another reason why I say that Councilor Hamann is not all totally with the people of Zion. He doesn't sleep, he walks about alot at "night" and he visits the engineering section. Plus he countermanned Lock. Interesting.

he could possible be a machine. it sounds far fetched but think about it. why would the machines allow zion to run without knowing what they are doing? make sense to me. i am not saying that is what i beleive but it makes sense.

A cyborg? How would he get that way. The Matrix don't have any cyborgs and the inhabitants of Zion have never mentioned cyborgs.

And they would know, they are not THAT stupid in Zion.

And they would know, they are not THAT stupid in Zion.

No one is saying that they are stupid. But I don't think Hamann is a cyborg. He may have some connection with the Great Mind, but he is still flesh and blood.

I think someone suggesting that Hamann is actually a machine and agent for the AIs is pretty much making out that Zion is stupid for not noticing.

Not stupid but unable to identify. They are not able to identify cyborgs.

Supposing that Councilor Hamann is a cyborg sent by the Great Machine to infiltrate Zion, then he can wreak tremendous havoc there. Would he have access to the Zion mainframe and other vitals of Zion. Then the conversation on the landing with Neo was smoke. He was lying when he said that he has no idea how the machines in the environmental section of engineering work. But he was plumbing Neo for his feelings and standing on matters in general.

Why would they be unable to identify cyborgs? Zion almost certainly has a ton of security equipment designed to deal with all such conceivable threats from the machines.

And assuming Hamann had a life out on the front lines once, the first EMP he was near would have fried vital parts of his body.

Yes he would if he was near an EMP burst. But he wasn't. Plus being a cyborg covered with human flesh and the eyes to perfection how would the people of Zion even know the difference. They would not if Hamann is a cyborg. There would be no metallic surfaces on his body. Sleeping would not be necessary but no would know that. His excuse is that he only sleeps are few hours per night and he hates sleeping. There are alot of people like that. No red flags there.

there is definitely something to him..why did he have to let morpheous and his gang leave zion without much resistance? and in his conversation with neo, he seemed to be stressing much about a balance between the humans and machines...saying we need them amd can't do without them....

Quite Right!!!! That is exactly what happened. Morpheus, Trinity and Neo have intimate connections with the A.I. through the Oracle. Hamann knew this. Hamann himself must have had meetings with the Oracle or some other aspect of the A.I. Even if he is not a cyborg or some other agent of the A.I. he is connected and he knows of the connection between it and the other three. Especially The One. It could also be that Hamann also knows of the Architect or some aspect of the Architect and that Neo would meet him.

It is entirely possible he has met the Oracle. All else seems very unlikely.

or maybe he is just another form of control... the head military guy didn't want the nebacanezer to leave and hamann let them go.

I believe he met the Oracle as well. For whatever reason. But it is possible he has a hidden agenda. By hidden I mean that whatever the Oracle told him (or any other manifestation of the A.I.) he does not share it with the general population or with the captains. Possibly with some members of the council itself.

You may be quite right there Happy Kine. Another form of control.

or the coincillor fears neo would take leadership from him..it happens to those who do not want to leave power......

well ush, i didnt say that i thought he was a machine i just said what if. also he very well could be in league with them or why not a machine? you say that zion isnt that stupid, well neither are the machines to just send in a completely unbeleiveable cyborge. hell maybe he is very much like bain, a man with his mind taken over by machine. we just dont know so i was just throwing it out there.

You make it sound like Hamann is a terminator of some sort, like Arnold.
I think he could definitly be in league with the machines. What if though, the anomoly before Neo, before he died told one of the counsel about the plan and that it was the only way to secure their existence. then Hamann wanting to secure the existence of human life, would naturally say Humans need machines and Machines need humans.

A Bane-like agent is actually possinble (unlike the cyborg idea which just is not practical when he would a. be subject to medical examination and b. have to fight in a war in which EMPs are used) but I rather suspect that this is an ability of Smith's and no-one elses, and furthermore I believe there is nothing more to Hamann at all.

I think he's human. The people of Zion have all sorts of sensors for picking up machines. It wouldn't make sense if he was a cyborg.

And he's just wise. He is a Councilman after all.

It doesn't make sense that he would be a cyborg, He could just be wise, but the matrix has been know to decieve. Look at the oracles first remarks to Neo. She told him what he needed to hear. What if councilman Hamann was just telling Neo what he needed to hear about the control between human and machines?

well i agree, i think he is human. just playing a little devils advocate.

I would bet the counsellor has knowledge about the repeating versions of the Matrix. Not first hand, but passed down from previous leaders. He understands the symbiosis that has developed between Man & Machiene. I think he tries to soften Neo up - not to just hate all machienes (for the control via the Matrix), but perhaps to get him recognize they serve a "purpose" as well. Well at least their point of view, by pointing out in a sense Zion keep machienes in the engineering level as their "slaves" to keep their world functioning at status quo. I believe he was preping Neo for the meeting with the Architect guy. He wanted this version of Neo to pick the right door and save Zion. To do that Neo would need to admit Humans & Machiene needed each other to suvive.

I agree he is human too. But just because he is a councilperson doesn't make him beyond doing something dastardly. Also take into account that Anthony Zerbe plays lots and lots of questionable individuals. He's good.

Another poster suggested that he may be a cyborg. I agree that it is possible being that the inhabitants of Zion would have not means or cause to suspect a cyborg. THe A.I. has not engaged in creating cyborgs in the past.

That is exactly what he was saying. When Neo asked him what was the Councilors point... Hamann answered that there is no point. Old men don't make points. So like the Architect, Hamann gave veiled truths, but no real stark conclusion for Neo to pick up on right away.

So M.W. if the machines aren't the "true enemy" of mankind, who or what is their enemy in your opinion?

Humankind is its own enemy. It created the A.I. in it's own mental image. The A.I. got powerful and the humans tried shutting it down like in all the other A.I. type movies and scenarios. Being a "creative and independent intelligence" the A.I. fought back in the most logical fashion... it took over the humans.

All human societies are conformist. Rigid. That is one of the essence of culture even when the evolve they are conformist.

Most humans are not of the mind that we love seeing our children exceed us. Most people don't have children for such a reason. Many have children to help with the work and for other selfish/not so very selfish reasons. Adults are supreme and children follow in the footsteps of the parents or the adults of society. Stray from that and the child or developing adult is branded as a rebel, an outlaw, a troublemaker, so on and so forth. So it would not be very different with an A.I. It would be perceived as a threat to our autonomy.

I disagree.

In fact, technological progress is based on the idea that what comes in the future is superior (larger, more complex) to what happens today.

Just to test my own sense of foresight, I am guessing you do not have any children of your own?

You think as an individual. Nothing wrong with that. But human society as a whole is not oriented toward pushing our children to exceed us. Succeed us yes. We call that heirdom. Sometimes the heirs of our "estates" are not children from our bodies. I have seen and heard many many stories of jealous parents. people who are jealous of their children and their children successes. Many "primitive" societies are not geared toward the parents seeing their children exceed them. The children are produced to work. Even not so "primitive" human societies and cultures do the exact same thing. People have children as a matter of course. Most people do not have children because they LOVE children or love people, or love humanity for that matter. To many children are a "mistake" or something that just happened because they had sexual intercourse and didn't take precautions. So on and so forth. There is only a few people on earth who actually procreate because they love children, or love people, or love humanity. In advanced societies people often have children for selfish reasons. Religion plays a very very great part in many of the reasons. Spurring on uncontrollable procreation which in turn becomes irresponsible in the end.

You are very correct... I have no children yet.

But in the case of the A.I., a child of our mind with the ability to "think and create" independently of us and our control, can be extremely frightening and threatening. That is why A.I. stories always turn out the same.

So in the case of Councilor Hamann, he is a product of the A.I. without even knowing he is product and creation of the A.I. Would he commit suicide if he found that he was trapped in a lie?? Good question.

I guess that would depend upon whether he was inherently an Optimist, or a Pessimist?

... So (just out of curiosity) who (or what) is "Maul"?

True in many ways. Sometimes a pessimist is the most realistic of the two modes of thinking. A pessimist sees reality as it is. An optimist can always get severely CRUSHED by realities. Suicide can take many forms... willing and unwilling... in the forms of outright murdering oneself to going into a trance-like coma shock. Psychological breakdown is another and even some forms of severe depression brought on by extreme psychological shock to the system. Alcoholism and drug addiction brought on by the "shock".

Although every person, not just Councilor Hamann, in Zion would be a product of A.I. The question is how deeply is he affected by A.I. Where would he have been in A.I> never existed? Would he still be a Councilor, probably not. He could be just a nobody. So yes, it could be a bad thing that A.I came but also a good thing for him. but what about the others, it could be the opposite for them.

I am going to weigh in on The Serpent's side on this. I believe most parents do want their children to exceed the parent. I just had a child - not because I needed one to work on the farm or because of religon or an accident - and that is an option for more and more people these days. I want hime to have a better life than I did, and have already started sacrificing for him. (Dad waits a little longer for new shoes, so that the child can have them first.) That is why we build societies, try to improve our schools, etc.

Anyway, getting back to Councilor Hamann, I believe that he, of anyone could be the previous "One" - although I doubt anyone in any movie will be the previous "One." More likely, he knew him, (maybe as part of the intital generation) or knew someone who knew him.

I believe his speech to Neo was extremely prophetic and will be used in the next movie. Otherwise, why was it in the movie? Ultimately, Neo or all of the hero's will need to make a decision. Part of that decision will be to turn off the machines. The only problem is that if they turn off the machines, most/all the people hooked up to the Matrix are going to die. Their muscles are atrophied, they have no clothes, food or shelter. And there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of them. We need the machines, just as they need us. What we want, and what the fight is for, is power. We want to control the machines, instead of us being controlled by them.

Its not a question of personal station. Without the A.I. he would be his own man as much as could possibly be. Whether an important man or a gardener, he would be his own self and not a product of an artificial intelligence bent on keeping humanity subjugated and enslaved for it's own purposes and survival.

yes hew would be his own man, but he wouldn't be the same man, our experiences mold us into who we are, he would have been a different man then he is today if it wasn't for A.I.

Unwilling suicide... the mind shuts down in shock response to unnerving and horrendous outside realities.

Optimism and pessimism is not reality in itself, it is our response to outside realities. A personality trait inherent in us and we inherit from our forebears. It how we approach the real world.

How you respond to finding yourself in the matrix setting is based on your inherited psychological responses to the stresses of life around you.

something to consider:

Clarify.

It's possible, but that would mean he had to copy himself somehow? I think he was freed and he knows of the purpose of the one? You noticed how he wouldn't make a point to what he meant when he talked about the simbiotic relationship of man and machine.

if this is true, then maybe the councilor has been throught the last five constructs of the matrix. Maybe he is the one who released the first few. Maybe he has figured out how to beat the machines and wants to help the humans.

You get the idea, the possibilities are virtually endless at what this could mean.

i know this is an old post, but I'm bringing it back, and theres nothing you can do to stop me. anywho, You guys are missing an explanation that seems very logical. Perhaps hammand knows whats going on. Let me explain:

When Neo goes to the Architechs Techroom () one of the first things he asks is "Why am I here?" which he is answered to with "You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed." Perhaps The previous Ones tell one person about when the One appears, and the machines start digging, that Zion will be destroyed, no matter what. And that the only chance for survival is Neo rebuilding it with the help of the machines, ergo returning to the source and such. Now think, the person the One tells before he dies is a high councler, and when that counceler is replaced, he tells his successor. They do not tell anyone because if they do, the One might not reach the source, and then humanity is ****ed... get my drift? So hammand pulls a Oracle on Neo, and sends him 'flying' in the direction that he needs to for the salvation of Zion. You can look at this theory and change it many ways, but I think thats pretty logical. Don't yoooou? *Points at the person reading this earily*

Okay, first of all, Homann is not the previous One, because that would require him to be, maybe 120 years old, probably closer to 130, 135. Second, Homann is not a machine, because only the Programs that have transcended the operation of the Matrix (Smtih, Oracle, Archie) have feelings, or are able to express the emotions of humans. Third, Homann is not the only human who knows that Humanity will survive only if humans and machines work together, neither is he the only "consciousness" that understands this, either. Fourth, I believe that Homann does not feel like Neo may take over his position, because he seems to talk to Neo like a fatherly figure, and he seems to have genuine interest in Neo and his abilities. Also, the anomalies no longer know what the Archie tells them, if he tells them at all, because their "code" is stripped and the "prime program is reinserted". If the previous anomalies knew, then they would most certainly have told anyone and everyone they met, and Zion would know they are the sixth Zion, and this would not facilitate the "function of the ONe", for if people know that they are gonna be killed anyway, why should they try to free any minds, they are safe in the Matrix. Also, if Homann knew, then the council would know, and they would try to devise a plan to work with the machines, not against them, doncha think?

you misunderstood me completely. I do not believe that Neo will take over for The person who the One tells about. I think hamman was the person who took over and learned this, and now that the one has appeared he knows he has to help guide him, otherwise all of humanity will be destroyed. If the word got out about Zion bein destroyed over and over, then what u said would happen, no one would be free'd, and then it'd lead to teh system crash and then, like i said, humanitys ****ed. why would hammand help neo and the neb be cleared if he didnt have a general conecption that Zion was going to be destroyed, and Neo couldnt be there, or it was all over for everything.

Homann believes in Neo, because he knows what Neo has done. Everyone will fall back on their beliefs at one time or another, and we see that Homann allows the Neb to leave, because he sees that there might be some truth to the prophecy.

"I believe our existence depends on more than how many ships we have"

i believe he says Survival, not Existence. Correct? :P

The second movie has me pretty convinced that the humans are still inside the matrix, even within Zion (matrix within a matrix). As evidence of the fact I turn to 1) Smith leaving the matrix, 2) Neo being able to sense the machines on the 'outside', and 3) the Architect's discussion with Neo. The architect basically tells Neo the same thing that Smith told Morpheus in the first movie, except he adds yet one more incarnation of the matrix to the story. The architect implies that event he 20th century earth version failed and they had to build a third one. Basically they had to build a matrix where there was 'something more' beyond the 20th century earth. I think that Hamann is most likely an AI construct, and was never noticed by Neo before because for some reason Neo wasn't able to notice he was in an 'outer matrix' prior to his discussion with the architect. The point being, there is no need for cyborg's etc.. no security in Zion would protect it because it is programmed that way. Hamann would simply be another part of the programming.

The interesting question then actually is the same question from the first movie, which is: "what is the matrix?" The fact that the world of Zion is still a matrix brings into question all of the history we've seen in the movies, as well as the "Animatrix". In other words, it could all be a lie. Frankly, one of the things that always disturbed me about the first movie is the scientific flaw of using humans for energy when there is no sunlight, because they never really deal with the problem of where they get the energy to keep the humans alive. Granted this is science fiction, but even science fiction generally tries to stay within the bounds of real science as much as possible.

So the question is why are the machines keeping humans alive? Or even better, are there any humans at all? Perhaps the whole thing is a giant program. One of my own theories is that humans built the matrix in order to escape some post-apocolypic scenario and programmed the machines to create a paradise for them. That failed, and the machines are now simply doing their best to comply with their programming. I feel that a theory along those lines goes along with what the oracle says. However, it is merely conjecture.

i am the biggest proponent of MWAM (matrix within a Matrix) however there are flaws in your thinking...
1) Smith could leave the matrix either way...If zion wasn't a matrix, then it would be the same thing as changing the OS on your computer, remotely...its possible, but it doesnt happen often.
2) the use of humans to create energy is feasible, although it wont be done in our lifetime (thank neo), however, they do not put ENERGY into the humans, they FEED them, thus using our own natural processes against us, so to speak. The humans are being kept in a conrtrolled environment, asleep, so they are basically just chemical processors, taking sustenance and producing energy "which, when combined with a form of FUSION, provides all the energy they'll ever need"

i think a MWAM would be cool. but the only thing i wonder is how would it all end. I (hopefully we) care for the characters in the story very much. I would be kind of disappointed to see them all poof disappear end of story because they were programs themselves. I think the idea of a WMAM would make a better stand alone movie, rather than a trilogy. unless i am just not fully understanding this WMAM concept.

the way i think it would end, if it were truly MWAM, would Be for Neo to wake up from real world, to see that it was just another program, giving us the idea that we can never really know what is real and what isn't, that there is always more than meets the eye.

But that would suck - really, REALLY badly...Everything was just a figment of his imagination, that is bloody terrible...

in the trailer the oracle says hes is trapped between "this world and the machine world." she lives in the matrix so she must mean the matrix and the "real" world. Why wouldnt she say it that way? or do you think its just because machines rule that world.

i dont think its a figment of his imagination, i mean that the real world, just as the matrix, are imposed upon him, a prison for the mind.

no, but he probably has gone through all the versions of Zion and knows what is going to happen.

if he knew what was goin ta happen, he would know about the Architect...

how do we know he doesnt?

then why ask "Who are you?" "Why am i here?"...

either no one told me, or no one knew

there u go, no one told him

why WOULDN'T they tell him?

i didnt read this whole thread, so let me know if im repeating this... but is it possible that maybe he is a previous "ONE"?

he cannot be a previous one, because he died, the previous one, i mean. Morpheus said it himself "when he died, the oracle prophecied his return.

Maybe they wouldn't tell him because if they did it would reveal that the prophecy is fake, and they want him, and everyone else, to believe that it all is true.

Not sure, but Maybe...

but why would he (meaning hamann the previous one) want to keep up the prophecy? If he knew what was to come, he would tell Neo, in the hopes that neo would be able to stop the cycle. Also, something i just remembered...If Hamann WERE the previous one, why would he NOT know how Neo "does the things he does"? If he were the previous one, he would not only know how Neo can do them, but he would be able to do them himself.

OOooohh, I thought you guys were talking about someone else (the architect, not Hamann). Ok in that case never mind... and yes I agree with jedi as to why I would be wrong.

ok, excuse me

oh, maybe we were... oops...i guess i looked at the header and forgot this thread (like all others, except Erleuchtet) had diverged from former course...then, i still say that, no, Archie is not the previous one, because that brings to mind, one, the dread spoiler (the kid) and two because why would the previous one want to continue the cycle? Why wouldn't he want to STOP it, once and for all, i mean, after all, it was his choice to keep it going, to save the humans, but if there were a way TO stop it, wouldn't you go for it? Besides, if we were to assume Archie is telling the truth, then, no, he WASN'T the previous one b/c he Designed the matrix.