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Which side wins?

MAO.

Considering Death was vastly beyond the MAOs, I can't even fathom how the Basanos could lose... mmm

Many angled ones is such a great name.

Shame the arc was mediocre as ****.

It started out really great, too... But f*ck me it went downhill FAST.

Originally posted by Galan007
Considering Death was vastly beyond the MAOs, I can't even fathom how the Basanos could lose... mmm

What have Basanos really done except manipulate probability on a limited scale? Yes, they defeated Lucifer through extensive prep, but beyond that, is there anything im missing?

The fact that not even Lucifer could just destroy them outright speaks volumes, imo. That aside, how do you believe the MAOs can win, given that we know where they stand in comparison to universal abstracts? Do you really see the likes of Shuma Gorath(he's the one entity we can be fairly sure was actually on the MAO-roster, iirc, and he's almost certainly the most individually powerful among them) beating the Basanos in a neutral universe? If so, I am honestly curious how..? The Basanos were nigh-unharmable, after all... And the Death-card/aspect was also part of their collective, for what it's worth. /shrug

pretty much.

Even their base probabilty altering seems absurdly strong. They can bring any probability to bear.

Originally posted by Galan007
The fact that not even Lucifer could just destroy them outright speaks volumes, imo. That aside, how do you believe the MAOs can win, given that we know where they stand in comparison to universal abstracts? Do you really see the likes of Shuma Gorath(he's the one entity we can be fairly sure was actually on the MAO-roster, iirc, and he's almost certainly the most individually powerful among them) beating the Basanos in a neutral universe? If so, I am honestly curious how..? The Basanos were nigh-unharmable, after all... And the Death-card/aspect was also part of their collective, for what it's worth. /shrug

Right, but im having more trouble recalling their offensive capabilities? MAO don't have to kill them, they can subdue or imprison them if their raw power is superior, which imo, it is. In terms of standing though, MAO may be below death, but even Mephisto was stated to be "a mouse" when compared to Shuma. Also, to be fair, ive never been really overly impressed with Shuma but the MAO story did seem to portray them (collectively at least) in a different light.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Even their base probabilty altering seems absurdly strong. They can bring any probability to bear.

I remember them causing natural disasters on Lucifer's earth, but not much beyond that. As such, i don't think that's enough to say they can affect the MAO with their powers.

When they attacked luficer and tried to force different probabilities onto him.

The Basanos shitstomp.

They are basically Destiny's book with a will of their own.

Originally posted by krisblaze
When they attacked luficer and tried to force different probabilities onto him.

Lucifer's wings were compromised. He was depowered.

Originally posted by operator616
Lucifer's wings were compromised. He was depowered. I think "depowered" is strong language.

In that state, missing a couple feathers, he effortlessly created his multiverse and tanked the demiurgic energies of Michael.

Originally posted by Cogito
I think "depowered" is strong language.

In that state, missing a couple feathers, he effortlessly created his multiverse and tanked the demiurgic energies of Michael.

If im remembering this correctly, the feathers were basically a failsafe, and was meant to be activated specifically when the basanos attacked him.

We know for a fact that he returned to his full state when he confronted amenadiel at which point he was depleted to an enormous degree, so they drained most of his energies.

Not sure what you mean by a "failsafe". The feathers were withheld by Izanami when Lucifer recovered his wings

Originally posted by Cogito
Not sure what you mean by a "failsafe". The feathers were withheld by Izanami when Lucifer recovered his wings

I meant that the contamination in lucifer's wings was activated specifically when the basanos attacked him.

http://imgur.com/a/yHSi6

Ah, yes there was definitely context to the Basanos (temporarily) defeating Lucifer. They state clearly that they could not defeat him without that weakness.

Their implied power is off the charts, but obviously the events of Lucifer (and especially the role of the Basanos) is not really conducive to this type of "vs" matchup. Similar to meta-textuals, in that way.

Originally posted by Cogito
Ah, yes there was definitely context to the Basanos (temporarily) defeating Lucifer. They state clearly that they could not defeat him without that weakness.


Furthermore, Lucifer confirmed that this event absorbed most of his power.

http://imgur.com/04hAvlc

So yeah.

Originally posted by Cogito


Their implied power is off the charts, but obviously the events of Lucifer (and especially the role of the Basanos) is not really conducive to this type of "vs" matchup. Similar to meta-textuals, in that way.

Agreed. That's why i find hard to rank them. Their implied power is huge, but their feats seem extremely limited.

That happened when he was burned.

It is pretty obvious when their trap activated.

You can't have it both ways here.

Originally posted by operator616
Right, but im having more trouble recalling their offensive capabilities? MAO don't have to kill them, they can subdue or imprison them if their raw power is superior, which imo, it is. For me it's because the Basanos were night-omniscient -- literally created to mimic Destiny's Book. As such, they could directly affect probability(on a seemingly unlimited scale) -- if there is even an infinitesimal chance for an event to occur, they can force it to happen:
http://i.imgur.com/QdF9m3Q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DrkQsk5.jpg
"If reality is a magic lantern show, they are the lenses through which all the infinite possibilities of shape and color are focused."


Even Melos all but stated that in a neutral setting, the Basanos are essentially unlimited/infinite:
http://i.imgur.com/k2a95j7.jpg


*And they were not limited to just destruction, btw -- creation was also in their powerset:
http://i.imgur.com/aSCZBiU.jpg


Aside from that, the caricatures illustrated on the tarot cards were modeled directly after the *actual* being/concept itself:
http://i.imgur.com/MwBZszb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X1gdbGy.jpg

This is important(based on your personal POV, I suppose) because Death is among the cards:
http://i.imgur.com/2rmBrgS.jpg
And we know where the MAOs stand in comparison to that concept, at least. /shrug


Sans that, the Basanos can't be killed by anything less than the destruction of their deck(which wouldn't be present here), or the hand of Yahweh itself... So outright destroying them is out here. As for the MAOs containing them: how do you believe they could do that? Have they even contained/imprisoned entities like this..?

Originally posted by Galan007
For me it's because the Basanos were night-omniscient -- literally created to mimic Destiny's Book. As such, they could directly affect probability(on a seemingly unlimited scale) -- if there is even an infinitesimal chance for an event to occur, they can force it to happen:
http://i.imgur.com/QdF9m3Q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DrkQsk5.jpg
"If reality is a magic lantern show, they are the lenses through which all the infinite possibilities of shape and color are focused."



They were not omniscient in Lucifer's reality, so im not sure how this ability would reflect in a neutral universe.


Originally posted by Galan007

Even Melos all but stated that in a neutral setting, the Basanos are essentially unlimited/infinite:
http://i.imgur.com/k2a95j7.jpg


*And they were not limited to just destruction, btw -- creation was also in their powerset:
http://i.imgur.com/aSCZBiU.jpg


Aside from that, the caricatures illustrated on the tarot cards were modeled directly after the *actual* being/concept itself:
http://i.imgur.com/MwBZszb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X1gdbGy.jpg


I know they have huge implied power, which is why i was asking for feats.


Originally posted by Galan007


This is important(based on your personal POV, I suppose) because Death is among the cards:
http://i.imgur.com/2rmBrgS.jpg
And we know where the MAOs stand in comparison to that concept, at least. /shrug


Im not sure how you can compare some death avatar to the actual abstract death. We know it's not death of the endless after all.

Originally posted by Galan007

Sans that, the Basanos can't be killed by anything less than the destruction of their deck(which wouldn't be present here), or the hand of Yahweh itself... So outright destroying them is out here. As for the MAOs containing them: how do you believe they could do that? Have they even contained/imprisoned entities like this..?

Yes. They were the ones who were responsible for the galactus engine. The basanos on the other hand, who have they defeated or contained?

Are we talking about elder gods level MAOs? How is this even a fight?

Except highballing of Galactus and marvel characters?

Originally posted by operator616
I know they have huge implied power, which is why i was asking for feats. You're acting like the MAOs have some abundance of high-end feats, when they simply do not... Especially outside of their personal universes/dimensions.

Moreover, you yourself only mentioned lip-service/statements regarding the MAOs:Originally posted by operator616
but even Mephisto was stated to be "a mouse" when compared to Shuma.

Not sure why my mentioning the Basanos' implied power is any different..? mmm

Originally posted by operator616
Yes. They were the ones who were responsible for the galactus engine. What do you mean "responsible for"..? Am I forgetting an instance where it was stated that the MAOs built, powered, or amped the GE..?

Don't you know, feats and lip service only matter for whoever operator is arguing for.

Was Death really vastly beyond MAOs?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're acting like the MAOs have some abundance of high-end feats, when they simply do not... Especially outside of their personal universes/dimensions.

Moreover, you yourself only mentioned lip-service/statements regarding the MAOs:

Not sure why my mentioning the Basanos' implied power is any different..? mmm

What do you mean "responsible for"..? Am I forgetting an instance where it was stated that the MAOs built, powered, or amped the GE..?

You were the one who was talking about their standing, so i mentioned the mephisto part to get an idea where they stand in regards to some other powerful entities.

Also, me mentioning implied power is when they were stated to be able to rewrite the laws of all possible universes, or them being more powerful than the Galactus engine, or them being higher dimensional beings. So they too, have huge implied power.

That was the implication at the end of Thanos imperative #2. Surfer was talking about the MAO and then he mentioning that the "enemy is responding", then we see the Galactus engine, pretty sure that the MAOs were responsible for it. Check out the issue, because my internet connection is currently very bad.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't you know, feats and lip service only matter for whoever operator is arguing for.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

Originally posted by operator616
You were the one who was talking about their standing, so i mentioned the mephisto part to get an idea where they stand in regards to some other powerful entities.

Also, me mentioning implied power is when they were stated to be able to rewrite the laws of all possible universes, or them being more powerful than the Galactus engine, or them being higher dimensional beings. So they too, have huge implied power.

That was the implication at the end of Thanos imperative #2. Surfer was talking about the MAO and then he mentioning that the "enemy is responding", then we see the Galactus engine, pretty sure that the MAOs were responsible for it. Check out the issue, because my internet connection is currently very bad.



You just can't help yourself, can you?
Can't help with what? Your hypocrisy?

Oh and one MAO was killed by Black Bolt.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Can't help with what? Your hypocrisy?

Can't help with the bashing and hating.

But considering that your definition of "hypocrisy" is basically "not granting a DC character a win over a marvel character", im not really insulted.

Originally posted by operator616
That was the implication at the end of Thanos imperative #2. Surfer was talking about the MAO and then he mentioning that the "enemy is responding", then we see the Galactus engine, pretty sure that the MAOs were responsible for it. Check out the issue, because my internet connection is currently very bad. I know the scene you're referring to, but that certainly isn't how I interpreted the statement. The MAOs may have launched/sent the GE to commence its invasion of 616, but as far as building/powering/amping it..? This was never implied, as far as I recall. /shrug

And while it was initially mentioned that the MAOs were more powerful than the GE, it was also shown/implied in the final issue that 616 Galactus alone was holding it at bay:
http://i.imgur.com/q9tuIe1.jpg
Surfer: "If the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom."

*And none of the other cosmic/abstract beings from 616 were shown in the final issue -- so I would assume they were either killed, or fled. By all implications, Galactus was the final being standing in its way./shrug

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh and one MAO was killed by Black Bolt. Indeed:
http://i.imgur.com/uIKlLYS.png
http://i.imgur.com/xVgVgzT.png
http://i.imgur.com/ETEDLNr.png
http://i.imgur.com/dUmMAen.png

And Quasar + the 'Revengers' succeeded in defeating one as well:
http://i.imgur.com/jyCvIfv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CwqHfY6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/s06ZKqr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XH6FcDD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DjFMHW8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E3UQBYa.jpg
*And the Revengers acted like fighting/containing MAOs was commonplace for them.


If nothing else I'm sure we can all agree that the power(s) of the MAO(s) varies significantly. ermm

i truthfully never understood the MAO love. besides that, that series sucked ass. /shrug

Yeah, the concept of the MAOs is far better than their on panel execution ever was, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007


And while it was initially mentioned that the MAOs were more powerful than the GE, it was also shown/implied in the final issue that 616 Galactus alone was holding it at bay:
http://i.imgur.com/q9tuIe1.jpg
Surfer: "If the Devourer of Worlds cannot vanquish the obscene Galactus Engine, we will quickly follow my master to his doom."

*And none of the other cosmic/abstract beings from 616 were shown in the final issue -- so I would assume they were either killed, or fled. By all implications, Galactus was the final being standing in its way./shrug


Considering that it was explicitly shown previously that the combined efforts of the Celestials and Galactus were barely able to hold The Galactus Engine in check, id say that the GE was depleted by the combined attacks of the cosmic beings, leaving it vulnerable. a high end feat for Galactus either way.

The inconsistency of the GE and MAOs from issue-to-issue is really the only point I am trying to make with those scans.

Stuff like this is why I find it painfully tedious to quantify/gauge them with any sort of accuracy. ermm

Many Angled Ones.

Though Shuma Gorath is the only of them that has some feats outside of creating the GE.

And Shuma when in his realm is pretty much totally omnipotent.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Many Angled Ones.

Though Shuma Gorath is the only of them that has some feats outside of creating the GE.

And Shuma when in his realm is pretty much totally omnipotent.

This is neutral realm.

Originally posted by operator616
Can't help with the bashing and hating.

But considering that your definition of "hypocrisy" is basically "not granting a DC character a win over a marvel character", im not really insulted.
Oh I'm pretty sure that's not it. But keep trying to convince yourself.