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TCW Season 4 Anakin Skywalker takes on SoR Darth Nox. All-out fight, to the death, on neutral ground.

Who wins and why?

Anakin. He's already tango'd with a much stronger Sith several times by S4.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin. He's already tango'd with a much stronger Sith several times by S4.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin. He's already tango'd with a much stronger Sith several times by S4.

Nox

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox

Skywalker destroys

Originally posted by carthage
Skywalker destroys himself by choosing to fight a superior opponent.

Not sure how to reconcile Anakin being a near-equal of Dooku's by S4 and still being that in S6/DD/RotS when he's supposed to have grown vastly. Either Dooku's grown also or it's just inconsistent.

Nox.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how to reconcile Anakin being a near-equal of Dooku's by S4 and still being that in S6/DD/RotS when he's supposed to have grown vastly. Either Dooku's grown also or it's just inconsistent.

Don't see why it would be unreasonable to assume Dooku had grown.

Seems like it'd be an unusually significant growth without any reasonable catalyst, but not altogether unreasonable.

Hey. I have no problem if you guys took your Anakin wanking down a notch. Take whatever view you feel comfortable with.

Nah, seems more likely that the simple and direct relaying of facts as prescribed by a variety of sources got you triggered. Anyway, you have no business calling anybody out for their wanking, lol. Then again, the vast majority of this forum doesn't.

Regardless, you're aware that my dilemma is not a result of how high Anakin is, but based on him performing similarly against Dooku despite supposedly improving, right? So reducing Anakin does nothing to alleviate that. Either he overperformed in his early fights against Dooku, underperformed against Dooku in his later fights, Dooku improved, or it's just inconsistent.

You're referring to the numerous accolades you chose to side with contradicted by the numerous other accolades others chose to side with? Not quite, my friend. I couldn't care less which contradicted source you chose to side with. I care about your lack of consistency.

I only wank the underrated. Can't say the same for you or most of the rest of this forum simply trying to push your already overrated characters further into glory.

Perhaps you're simply, oh I don't know, overrating his performance due to inherent bias coming about from the constant forum wank of the character? Nah, that couldn't be it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how to reconcile Anakin being a near-equal of Dooku's by S4 and still being that in S6/DD/RotS when he's supposed to have grown vastly. Either Dooku's grown also or it's just inconsistent.
The second naboo fight's the outlier if anything. The first naboo fight had dooklu disarming anakin in short order, the season 6 fight also has dooku well above anakin. and dd has them stalemating despite it being months after the season 4 fight

We cold reconcile it by saying that anakin was fighting better than usual because palp was in danger which may have pushed anakin to draw on his anger

Sidious helping Anakin to tap into his rage during that fight is a good explanation as well and one I find to be plausible.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're referring to the numerous accolades you chose to side with contradicted by the numerous other accolades others chose to side with? Not quite, my friend. I couldn't care less which contradicted source you side with. I care about your lack of consistency.

I only wank the underrated. Can't say the same for you or most of the rest of this forum simply trying to push your already overrated characters further into glory.

Perhaps you're simply, oh I don't know, overrating his performance due to inherent bias coming about from the constant forum wank of the character? Nah, that couldn't be it.

Is this referring to anakin being a yoda/sidious level fighter? Because there is literally nothing a that contradicts that. TCW showings don't mean anything for your argument because anakin was factually "vastly pre prime" at that point.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Is this referring to anakin being a yoda/sidious level fighter? Because there is literally nothing a that contradicts that. TCW showings don't mean anything for your argument because anakin was factually "vastly pre prime" at that point.

More there actual comparative showings by RotS.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
More there actual comparative showings by RotS.
Hopefully you're not using anakin's fight with kenobi.

Because when both were hindered and on even footing, Kenobi ceded inferiority early on, Anakin ragdolled Kenobi, and off course prior to kenobi undhinhering himself, anakin was about to break kenobi's arms and make kenobi kill himself with his own saber.

@Nova

What? Yoda being the most powerful Jedi and Anakin being the most powerful Jedi. Sidious stating that Anakin would surpass Yoda and him ( but that he had not by that point ). As far as I'm concerned, quotes become meaningless when contradicted in the same source. It's why I judge them off of their feats and personally, while I think Anakin could be said to be somewhere between Dooku and either Sidious or Yoda based on feats alone, I don't have him on or even all that close to them as a whole like the majority of this forum seems to.

It is justified to wank underrated characters. People won't change their positions unless they're made to. It's NOT justified to continue wanking Anakin on a forum that already thinks he's some kind of god. Nobody on KMC and very few on CV think he's sub Kenobi. If you want to preach your wank do it in unexplored territory.

What "facts" are you referring to? Contradicted quotes or out of context comparisons?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hopefully you're not using anakin's fight with kenobi.

Nope.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What? Yoda being the most powerful Jedi Anakin being stated to be the most powerful Jedi. Sidious stating that Anakin would surpass Yoda and him ( but that he had not at that point ). As far as I'm concerned, quotes become meaningless when contradicted in the same source. It's why I judge them off of their feats and personally, while I think Anakin could be said to be somewhere between Dooku and either Sidious or Yoda based on feats alone, I don't have him on or even all that close to them as a whole.

It is justified to wank underrated characters. They need it and people won't change their positions unless they're made to. It's NOT justified to continue wanking Anakin on a forum that already thinks he's some kind of god. Nobody on KMC and very few on CV think he's sub Kenobi. If you want to preach your wank do it in unexplored territory.

What "facts" are you referring to? Contradicted quotes or out of context comparisons?

1. All of Anakin's most powerful quotes refer to the strength of his connection to the Force, in which case he is the strongest Force user to date. Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful in the sense that we think of on the battle forums: the net amount of power they can actually call upon is greater than Anakin's since their mastery of the Force is so much greater. This isn't anything new. Nobody pretends that the amount of power he brings to bear in fights is in excess of Sidious or Yoda, lol.

For the record, the array of sources referring to how powerful Anakin is eclipse the amount of sources saying Yoda's the most powerful, so even if you looked at it from a black-and-white angle it could be resolved easily. You've got characters like Sidious, Mace and Yoda themselves admitting to Anakin being the most powerful character, then on other occasions that Sidious remarks that Anakin has yet to become more powerful than them. Unless you think the writers are simply that stupid, you might want to consider thinking outside the box and recognizing that they might be referring to different things (ie. raw power and mastered power).

Feats? Anakin beating Dooku that decisively or him destroying Drallig (who's got B-team hype) in an instant while choking Bene at the same time doesn't come off as putting him at a 9? As far as contradictory feats go, all I can think of is the Obi-Wan thing which has been repeatedly addressed, and earlier instances where Anakin isn't a 9 (ie. every single one of his fights prior to him drawing on the dark side against Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand).

2. You know I was joking before, right? If you're acting like wank is a crime then there's no justification for it because it's unfairly promoting a character. That being said, if it's just the facts, then that's totally fine.

3. The fact that he's a level 9, which is contradicted by nothing. That seems to the main area of contention. And I mean, when I posted the thread compiling the feats and accolades relating to him in RotS, you couldn't even stand it and had to post dozens of low showings from him in TCW (none of which were relevant because they all took place when he was vastly pre-prime). Can't exactly call me out for bias when you can't even stand the sight of a respect thread and have to publicly show disrespect to the character in it.

It's not like we have an explicit statement from the creator of sw himself putting anakin on yoda or sid's level...

1. That's what I'm referring to. And two things. First, I said "on or even approaching RotS Sidious and Yoda's level." Secondly, there are many who actually think he is a match for RotS Sidious and Yoda on CV. Excess wanking has consequences that none of you seem to understand. You may think it's funny to exaggerate at the time but people who are less knowledgeable don't understand the flaws of the argument. It's why Ant's Revan arguments cause so much trouble throughout the communities despite them being able to be seen through by anybody familiar with the material. The people who don't understand that he uses contradictions and loopholes within the continuity itself to make his arguments, fall for them. It's makes SW fans dumber as a whole.

2. It's not "unfair" to promote a character who's underrated. Facts are perfectly fine. Undue extrapolation from those facts ( wanking ) isn't when the character is already placed where he should be. Think Ant and Revan ( bad wank ) in comparison to Beni and Tenebrous ( good wank ).

3. With there being large gaps within the tiers themselves as per the guy who made them. Gaps that would logically only grow larger the higher up they go.

No one, save for a handful of users(far less than the ampunt of folks still arguing crap like valk>sids) argues anakin=yoda/sids. People argue anakin can beat unquestionable inferiors to yoda/sids based on being on their level/right below them.

Also dumb.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


3. With there being large gaps within the tiers themselves as per the guy who made them. Gaps that would logically only grow larger the higher up they go.
3. Level 9 is not the same as tier 8. Given that tier 9 is stated to be where crap like circumstances/styles decide victors, there is very little difference between the tier 9's

"Feats? Anakin beating Dooku that decisively or him destroying Drallig (who's got B-team hype) in an instant while choking Bene at the same time doesn't come off as putting him at a 9? As far as contradictory feats go, all I can think of is the Obi-Wan thing which has been repeatedly addressed, and earlier instances where Anakin isn't a 9 (ie. every single one of his fights prior to him drawing on the dark side against Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand)."

I don't know about this "T9" garbage but it doesn't put him close to Sidious/Yoda.

I never said "contradictory feats" I said "out of context comparisons" which wasn't even specifically in reference to you but the general tactics of Anakin wankers who try to make the argument that Anakin is around Yoda or Sidious level.

"3. The fact that he's a level 9, which is contradicted by nothing. That seems to the main area of contention. And I mean, when I posted the thread compiling the feats and accolades relating to him in RotS, you couldn't even stand it and had to post dozens of low showings from him in TCW (none of which were relevant because they all took place when he was vastly pre-prime). Can't exactly call me out for bias when you can't even stand the sight of a respect thread and have to publicly show disrespect to the character in it. erm"

I was showing you a mirror image of your thread. Your best Anakin moments in comparison to his worst and why some of the feats you posted may have lacked certain necessary context or extrapolation as to why his performance was such.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Also dumb.
Using a character's placement on the level of other characters to rate them is dumb?

syn, tier 9 doesn't at all have a massive gap, the gap is indicated to be marginal, and besides, we have lucas's own fcking statement that anakin is up there with yoda/sids

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Using a character's placement on the level of other characters to rate them is dumb?

When contradicted multiple times, yes.

1/2. There's plenty of people who undersell Anakin. I don't know what you're talking about. Recent threads on CV have had several people, reputable and otherwise, rejecting the Anakin wank and outright saying that he's overrated. No idea where you're getting that it's now a consensus that he's Yoda/Sidious level, because the vast majority of people definitely don't think that. For the record, though, Lucas himself said Anakin was "as strong as the Emperor". And no, I don't think it's funny to overwank characters, but I definitely don't think it's funny to see users constantly passing judgements without even knowing what characters are capable of (we have a great recent example with the Anakin vs Angral thread). Half the time on CV it was me telling people like Necromancer to stop thinking that Revan could ragdoll Anakin or something. What's so unbearable about that?

3. There's large gaps between each tier, yeah, but Gillard has also said twice that when you get to level 9, there's no longer a difference in talent, just style and environmental differences that decide the outcome of a fight. I just posted both of the quotes on the Sidious/Yoda thing on the EU section.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
syn, tier 9 doesn't at all have a massive gap, the gap is indicated to be marginal, and besides, we have lucas's own fcking statement that anakin is up there with yoda/sids

Considering the person who made the tiers outright states that the gaps between the tiers and within the tiers are rather large, you're wrong.

Sure. How close, we don't know. And that's wherein lies the issue.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

I don't know about this "T9" garbage but it doesn't put him close to Sidious/Yoda.

So you're confessing that you don't even know what we're talking about, yet you're still trying to poison the well by calling it "garbage" and you're claiming that it doesn't put him close to Sidious and Yoda despite having no idea what it entails?

I can sum this up in three words. You're in denial.



What's out-of-context about the level 9 comparisons? The fact that he's only like that when he draws on the dark side? Yeah, I made that distinction and recognized that he's only an 8 otherwise. In fact, I corrected people believing that Anakin was a 9 even without drawing on the dark side just yesterday: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/may-the-fourth-be-with-you-jedi-order-tag-team-bat-1874410/#js-message-40

Your characterization of me as someone who just has a vested interest in putting Anakin up as high as possible and spreading that thought around is blatantly wrong. You can see right there in that thread that I correct two people that place Anakin higher than he deserves. My interest isn't in ranking Anakin as high as possible; it's in ranking him as correctly as possible.



If you want to show me a mirror image, you make your own disrespect thread. You don't try to shit on people's RT's by posting low showings in them; that's a textbook case of bias against the character if ever I've seen one. Why don't you show a mirror image of other respect threads? Right, because you don't have an inherent confirmation bias against them like you do with Anakin.

Lacking context? Is that why you're going to post low showings from TCW when he's vastly, vastly pre-prime? Where was your disclaimer that your low showings were also out of context because he was vastly pre-prime?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1/2. There's plenty of people who undersell Anakin. I don't know what you're talking about. Recent threads on CV have had several people, reputable and otherwise, rejecting the Anakin wank and outright saying that he's overrated. No idea where you're getting that it's now a consensus that he's Yoda/Sidious level, because the vast majority of people definitely don't think that. For the record, though, Lucas himself said Anakin was "as strong as the Emperor". And no, I don't think it's funny to overwank characters, but I definitely don't think it's funny to see users constantly passing judgements without even knowing what characters are capable of (we have a great recent example with the Anakin vs Angral thread). Half the time on CV it was me telling people like Necromancer to stop thinking that Revan could ragdoll Anakin or something. What's so unbearable about that?

3. There's large gaps between each tier, yeah, but Gillard has also said twice that when you get to level 9, there's no longer a difference in talent, just style and environmental differences that decide the outcome of a fight. I just posted both of the quotes on the Sidious/Yoda thing on the EU section.

1/2. I never said the consensus. You're putting words in my mouth. I said there's people on CV ( like Kbro ) who believe that.

"For the record, though, Lucas himself said Anakin was "as strong as the Emperor"

Quote?

I don't begrudge MOST of your actions on CV ( aside from your main thread ). I'm referring to KMC for the most part.

3. There's a difference in power though which IS relevant. Link it please.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So you're confessing that you don't even know what we're talking about, yet you're still trying to poison the well by calling it "garbage" and you're claiming that it doesn't put him close to Sidious and Yoda despite having no idea what it entails?

I can sum this up in three words. You're in denial.



What's out-of-context about the level 9 comparisons? The fact that he's only like that when he draws on the dark side? Yeah, I made that distinction and recognized that he's only an 8 otherwise. In fact, I corrected people believing that Anakin was a 9 even without drawing on the dark side just yesterday: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/may-the-fourth-be-with-you-jedi-order-tag-team-bat-1874410/#js-message-40



If you want to show me a mirror image, you make your own disrespect thread. You don't try to shit on people's RT's by posting low showings in them; that's a textbook case of bias against the character if ever I've seen one. Why don't you show a mirror image of other respect threads? Right, because you don't have an inherent confirmation bias against them like you do with Anakin.

Lacking context? Is that why you're going to post low showings from TCW when he's vastly, vastly pre-prime? Where was your disclaimer that your low showings were also out of context because he was vastly pre-prime?

If you do this ( and by this, I mean twist my words ) again we're done. I understand what we're talking about in regards to what the rankings mean. I'm saying that while Anakin may be "T9" his feats don't place him within the Sidious/Yoda range for employable power.

I appreciate that then.

Because, imo only Anakin and Revan are popular enough to have whole threads dedicated to wanking them and I feel they have the largest negative impact on the community as they are popular characters in and of themselves. Nihilus too but I'm generally not equipped to counter that sort of wank.

I didn't need to provide context sine I wasn't there to fairly rank Anakin. I was there to combat rampant wank and bring people back down to earth.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1/2. I never said the consensus. You're putting words in my mouth. I said there's people on CV ( like Kbro ) who believe that.

You told me my actions were wrong because there were enough (ie. too many) people already believing in Anakin being Yoda/Sidious tier and that it'd be unjust to keep pushing that down people's throats. Which is wrong, and now you're backtracking.



Here:



Clear as day, and no, it's not referring to potential because he already distinguishes that earlier on by referring to Anakin's potential as being more powerful than Palpatine, not equally powerful.



Is that why you said you regretted Ant and I spreading our Anakin wank over CV in your absence?

I'm not doing anything different on KMC, for the record.



I'll just get you bloody quotes:






Level 9 is essentially the cap. You're so good now that the only differences between you and another level 9 character are stylistic and environmental, not inherent.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If you do this ( and by this, I mean twist my words ) again we're done. I understand what we're talking about in regards to what the rankings mean. I'm saying that while Anakin may be "T9" his feats don't place him within the Sidious/Yoda range for employable power.

I appreciate that then.

Because, imo only Anakin and Revan are popular enough to have whole threads dedicated to wanking them and I feel they have the largest negative impact on the community as they are popular characters in and of themselves. Nihilus too but I'm generally not equipped to counter that sort of wank.

I didn't need to provide context sine I wasn't there to fairly rank Anakin. I was there to combat rampant wank and bring people back down to earth.

1. I didn't twist anything. I was referring to Anakin being on Sidious and Yoda's level as a swordsman there the whole time, so either you couldn't keep up with the discussion or you're being disingenuous. Don't threaten me when you're not even following the discussion. The part where I was mentioning tier 9 was explicitly in reference to swordsmanship, since those rankings are only in relation to bladework. Just take a look at it again:



You can see that the entire paragraph is about him as a swordsman, not in terms of Force powers mid-combat or anything else. I'm not here to repeat myself; either you read and follow what I say or **** off. Don't misinterpret what I say and then blame me for twisting it and threaten me.

2. Anakin isn't nearly as popular as Revan. You're deluded if you think that. A sizable portion of CV's community has only just begun to appreciate Anakin at all; certainly not back when I made the thread.

3. "Counter rampant wank"? I made that thread because most people didn't know of or didn't care about most of that stuff at that point. You're completely in denial and you're just making nonsensical excuses for what's completely inexcusable conduct. You don't shit on anyone's respect thread with piles of out-of-context, irrelevant low showings, full stop. That's disrespectful and rude to the user who posted the blog as well. You might think it's just shit and giggles but it's offensive. People put hard work into showing why a character should be where he is and you just throw sludge bombs of low showings because you can't stand the sight of the character being ranked that way. There's no possible way you can justify what you did in that thread and you know it: what you did was wrong, period. That's all there is to it, and you can't even own up to that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You told me my actions were wrong because there were enough (ie. too many) people already believing in Anakin being Yoda/Sidious tier and that it'd be unjust to keep pushing that down people's throats. Which is wrong, and now you're backtracking.



Here:



Clear as day, and no, it's not referring to potential because he already distinguishes that earlier on by referring to Anakin's potential as being more powerful than Palpatine, not equally powerful.



Is that why you said you regretted Ant and I spreading our Anakin wank over CV in your absence?

I'm not doing anything different on KMC, for the record.



I'll just get you bloody quotes:






Level 9 is essentially the cap. You're so good now that the only differences between you and another level 9 character are stylistic and environmental, not inherent.

A single person thinking that is too many. But among those who do place him on or around that level on CV are SFW, Kbro, bigsambino, JarJarBinks, Azronger, Diisciplus and a bunch of others.

Given the entire conversation is about potential and it's established that Sidious is around Anakin's level in potential power ( Anakin having the potential to be 80% of Sidious after having his power halved ) he's likely using it as a way of referencing that level of power. I'd need clarification from Lucas regarding the statement given how much he contradicts himself ( stating that Mace won the duel but that Sidious threw the fight, yeah, I know how we rationalize it but I can't imagine those rationalizations were ever his intent ).

I do regret that you did that via your thread as I mentioned in my last edit. If what you're saying about recent actions are true then I don't begrudge you for "most" of your actions.

Yes you are. You're contributing to the atmosphere of "Anakin is god and comparable to Sidious/Yoda" here.

Doesn't seem like it's in reference to power but rather skill.

1. So Gillard and Lucas thinking that is too many? More confirmation that you're flat-out in denial.

How about just having intelligent discourse with the points for once instead of trying to criminalize viewpoints and act like it's a sin?

2. I answered that already. It's not potential because Lucas already mentioned that and described Anakin's potential as ECLIPSING Palpatine's power, not equalling it. So when he says that Anakin's just as strong, he's referring to Anakin in the now, not the future. Not to mention that Anakin being as strong as Sidious still aligns with Palpatine saying that he hadn't surpassed him yet.

Again, you're making excuses.

Mace winning the duel and Sidious throwing the fight aren't contradictory at all. Silver literally dissected that quote in his blog; Lucas isn't even saying that Mace won legit.

3. Anakin is god? You're full of shit. I don't pretend he's invulnerable and frequently support the notion that others can exploit his state of mind via TP, something that Ant also does. In fact, I argued something of the sort on CV recently with Valkorion. And as I said, there's no difference between KMC and CV other than the fact that users here assume each other to be more knowledgeable, so they skip the basics when explaining things.



Yeah, of course it's ****ing referring to lightsaber combat. I just told you that the levels that Gillard brings up are in reference to saber combat only. That's been known for years. Jesus Christ. You don't even know what we're talking about. You're so far behind that you shouldn't even be discussing this stuff.

How on earth can you criticize the Anakin wank movement so much and yet have no idea what their evidence says or doesn't say? You've just destroyed your own credibility. This entire thread you've shown that you don't even know what I'm talking about, and yet you're telling me I don't understand what I'm doing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I didn't twist anything. I was referring to Anakin being on Sidious and Yoda's level as a swordsman there the whole time, so either you couldn't keep up with the discussion or you're being disingenuous. Don't threaten me when you're not even following the discussion. The part where I was mentioning tier 9 was explicitly in reference to swordsmanship, since those rankings are only in relation to bladework. Just take a look at it again:



You can see that the entire paragraph is about him as a swordsman, not in terms of Force powers mid-combat or anything else. I'm not here to repeat myself; either you read and follow what I say or **** off. Don't misinterpret what I say and then blame me for twisting it and threaten me.

2. Anakin isn't nearly as popular as Revan. You're deluded if you think that. A sizable portion of CV's community has only just begun to appreciate Anakin at all; certainly not back when I made the thread.

3. "Counter rampant wank"? I made that thread because most people didn't know of or didn't care about most of that stuff at that point. You're completely in denial and you're just making nonsensical excuses for what's completely inexcusable conduct. You don't shit on anyone's respect thread with piles of out-of-context, irrelevant low showings, full stop. That's disrespectful and rude to the user who posted the blog as well. You might think it's just shit and giggles but it's offensive. People put hard work into showing why a character should be where he is and you just throw sludge bombs of low showings because you can't stand the sight of the character being ranked that way. There's no possible way you can justify what you did in that thread and you know it: what you did was wrong, period. That's all there is to it, and you can't even own up to that.

1. How was I being "disingenuous?" Lmao. I'll threaten you with ending the conversation whenever I want as that's my right. I don't have to continue a discussion with someone I feel is being disrespectful. And I'm saying that Anakin's augmentation is related to his ability to his employable power and therefore he may be T9 but he shouldn't be on Yoda or Sidious's level as a swordsman. Yes, there are outliers like Kas'im but given the difference in employable power we've seen in regards to energy projection from Sidious/Yoda in comparison to Anakin I don't feel it would matter.

If you can't understand that energy projection is related to level of physical augmentation then that's your fault, not mine.

2. Certainly more popular then the lesser characters that have been wanked successfully; the Ancients. The difference between him and other wanked semi popular characters like; Kun and Krayt are that their wank was generally denied by the public.

3. I respect your compilation of those feats/quotes. I felt what I had to do was necessary and I didn't mean to offend you in the process. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. How was I being "disingenuous?" Lmao. I'll threaten you with ending the conversation whenever I want as that's my right. I don't have to continue a discussion with someone I feel is being disrespectful. And I'm saying that Anakin's augmentation is related to his ability to his employable power and therefore he may be T9 but he shouldn't be on Yoda or Sidious's level as a swordsman. Yes, there are outliers like Kas'im but given the difference in employable power we've seen in regards to energy projection from Sidious/Yoda in comparison to Anakin I don't feel it would matter.

If you can't understand that energy projection is related to level of physical augmentation then that's your fault, not mine.

2. Certainly more popular then the lesser characters that have been wanked successfully; the Ancients. The difference between him and other wanked semi popular characters like; Kun and Krayt are that their wank was generally denied by the public.

3. I respect your compilation of those feats/quotes. I felt what I had to do was necessary and I didn't mean to offend you in the process. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

1. I said you were EITHER misinterpreting me or disingenuous, and I left it open as to what it was. Because you just weren't following me. And yeah, it's your right to threaten to cut off the discussion; it's equally your right to make yourself look ****ing stupid. So I'll leave you to it.

That's an appeal to ignorance; absence of evidence and evidence of absence are not the same. The only time Anakin is actually anywhere close to where the "wank" puts him at is during his duel with Dooku, where he displays level 9 fighting prowess but just doesn't use TK at all, and during Knightfall, which is primarily off-screen so we don't actually know most of what he did there except for utterly annihilating Drallig, again a level 9 performance. It all reconciles perfectly. We just never really get an opportunity to see him use TK during his prime moments. However, we do get a glimpse of what he can do in LoE when his Force Scream (where he seems to have involuntarily tapped into the dark side for a moment) brings down the 90 x 30 metre dome.

Energy projection and augmentation are only loosely comparable, not directly, or else Obi-Wan would be much closer to Dooku in TK. That's just a thing you made up to fill in the holes in your own views, nothing more. You passing it off as if it's unequivocal fact is hilarious. You are aware that Force users practice different areas of the Force and master them each to varying degrees, yes? It's not uniform across the board.

2. The Ancients were immensely popular back in the day and the wank was really just a short-lived way of countering the "featless" nonsense. You'll notice they're not nearly as "wanked" anymore. Kun and Krayt are more widely accepted in the community than Anakin.

3. I'm sorry you're still in denial; that's all. You're telling yourself that your act there was just when you know that doing that on any other respect thread would be completely wrong.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. So Gillard and Lucas thinking that is too many? More confirmation that you're flat-out in denial.

How about just having intelligent discourse with the points for once instead of trying to criminalize viewpoints and act like it's a sin?

2. I answered that already. It's not potential because Lucas already mentioned that and described Anakin's potential as ECLIPSING Palpatine's power, not equalling it. So when he says that Anakin's just as strong, he's referring to Anakin in the now, not the future. Not to mention that Anakin being as strong as Sidious still aligns with Palpatine saying that he hadn't surpassed him yet.

Again, you're making excuses.

Mace winning the duel and Sidious throwing the fight aren't contradictory at all. Silver literally dissected that quote in his blog; Lucas isn't even saying that Mace won legit.

3. Anakin is god? You're full of shit. I don't pretend he's invulnerable and frequently support the notion that others can exploit his state of mind via TP, something that Ant also does. In fact, I argued something of the sort on CV recently with Valkorion. And as I said, there's no difference between KMC and CV other than the fact that users here assume each other to be more knowledgeable, so they skip the basics when explaining things.



Yeah, of course it's ****ing referring to lightsaber combat. I just told you that the levels that Gillard brings up are in reference to saber combat only. That's been known for years. Jesus Christ. You don't even know what we're talking about. You're so far behind that you shouldn't even be discussing this stuff.

How on earth can you criticize the Anakin wank movement so much and yet have no idea what their evidence says or doesn't say? You've just destroyed your own credibility.

1. What are you even talking about? I said that I think there's too many.

If you like.

2. Remind me, was this the RotS or RotJ commentary? If it's the RotJ commentary then it could still be referring to potential power considering Sidious's drain of Byss.

3. And get straight to the triumphant declarations of his supremacy.

I'm unsure because you and the quotes about the tiers/levels themselves seem to be contradictory. You understand that technical skill is not the whole of lightsaber combat but rather one half of it with the other half being augmentation. Are these tiers in regards to overall lightsaber combat or just "skill."

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I said you were EITHER misinterpreting me or disingenuous, and I left it open as to what it was. Because you just weren't following me.

That's an appeal to ignorance; absence of evidence and evidence of absence are not the same. The only time Anakin is actually anywhere close to where the "wank" puts him at is during his duel with Dooku, where he displays level 9 fighting prowess but just doesn't use TK at all, and during Knightfall, which is primarily off-screen so we don't actually know most of what he did there except for utterly annihilating Drallig, again a level 9 performance. It all reconciles perfectly.

Energy projection and augmentation are only loosely comparable, not directly, or else Obi-Wan would be much closer to Dooku in TK. That's just a thing you made up to fill in the holes in your own views, nothing more. You passing it off as if it's unequivocal fact is hilarious.

2. The Ancients were immensely popular back in the day and the wank was really just a short-lived way of countering the "featless" nonsense. You'll notice they're not nearly as "wanked" anymore. Kun and Krayt are more widely accepted in the community than Anakin.

3. I'm sorry you're still in denial; that's all. You're telling yourself that your act there was just when you know that doing that on any other respect thread would be completely wrong.

1. No, you weren't following ME as I just explained.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't think his performance against Dooku is indicative that he has similar levels of augmentation to either Yoda or Sidious either. If he did then I'd be happy to assume he's near Sidious/Yoda level like the rest of you. But I don't. This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

I never said it was an unequivocal fact. I said that they generally line up with each other with there being exceptions such as Kas'im and, yes, Kenobi. It tends not to matter when Anakin's augmentation even at its best is still inferior to Sidious and Yoda's and he has no comparable energy manipulation feats.

2. And they're not wanked to the level he is. Not as successfully as Anakin anyways.

3. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm sorry you got offended by my actions.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova


I'm unsure because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You understand that technical skill is not the whole of lightsaber combat but rather one half of it with the other half being augmentation. Are these tiers in regards to overall lightsaber combat or just "skill."

There's literally nothing specifying it to be only technical skill or physical augmentation.

But keep making excuses

1. Well, you said one person thinking that is one too many. Gillard and Lucas think that, so I guess we're already two overboard?

2. It's a separate interview and it's clearly referring to them as of RotS. Can you just stop ****ing around and accept stone-cold facts when they're presented to you? There's no way it's referring to ****ing potential because I showed you the difference in the way he talks about potential in the same interview. He talks about Anakin being more powerful than Sidious when he discusses potential, so when he talks about him being "as strong as" the Emperor he's clearly not talking about potential. Not to mention that if you paid attention to the quote, Lucas is referring to events that have already passed, not things that are yet to be. So Anakin being just as strong as Sidious refers to RotS, not potential. You're just so in denial that it's hilarious. You've entered the discussion with preconceived notions of Anakin not being on par with Sidious, so no matter what I say or show you, you'll just try to find your way out of it because you can't accept it. So there's really no point in us continuing this any further; we may as well agree to disagree.

Sidious' draining shit is EU-introduced, not relevant to the movies where Lucas' claim has to be able to stand on its own. EU explanations have to work around the movies, not the other way around. Secondly there's no way Sidious' drain makes up for Anakin being 200% of Sidious, if you really think it's referring to potential.

3. It's referring to overall lightsaber combat, yes.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

Sidious never blitzed or showcased the ability to blitz baseline mace. Mace not being able to save his friends doesn't mean mace can blitz him. Even when facing an equal in combat, its considerably hard to defend fodder alongside you

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. No, you weren't following ME as I just explained.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't think his performance against Dooku is indicative that he has similar levels of augmentation to either Yoda or Sidious either. If he did then I'd be happy to assume he's near Sidious/Yoda level like the rest of you. But I don't. This is based on Sidious being able to blitz baseline Mace who's around Dooku level.

Anakin was devastating Dooku even moreso than Yoda was. How is that not at least equal augmentation?

Sidious didn't blitz Mace at all. We clearly see Mace reacting before Sidious could even land the first blow, so he obviously wasn't blitzed. The quotes about him "not realizing what happened" are clearly hyperbole unless you think he and Kit were fighting Palpatine without even realizing it. As for Sidious striking down Agen and Saesee before Mace could do anything, we clearly see Mace retreating in response to Palpatine doing the spin attack, which is why he was too far away to stop Palpatine from gutting Kolar. After that, Palpatine moves AWAY from him to strike Saesee, meaning that even if Mace was moving in now he had no way of stopping that from happening.

Yes, Sidious is faster, but not by enough of a margin to blitz Mace, lol. That's ridiculous. Yoda couldn't blitz Dooku, and they're about on par with Sidious and Mace respectively.



So you're willing to have Kas'im and Obi-Wan serve as exceptions but not Anakin? Wow. More double standards and denial.



Anakin's wanked to that level because he deserves to be per fact and fiat; it's that simple.

Let's just look at this objectively: some people think that it's right for Anakin to be there, some people don't. And now you're trying to criminalize the viewpoints of the former and act like it's a sin to think that. What you're looking for amounts to suppression of thought/speech. You don't like it so you want it to be eradicated.



Yeah, we do have to agree to disagree because you're so in denial that you need therapy. You're acting like it's only me that'd be offended by something like that. If you made an RT and I spammed dozens of low showings in the comments section that aren't even relevant, I can assure you that you wouldn't be anywhere near as laid back as you are now.

1. Very funny.

2. I'm just trying to understand the intent behind the quotes that might help to explain the depicted inconsistencies. You're right though, that if it didn't have the context of referencing the Emperor by a certain point it can't refer to overall potential power. While the quote would be inaccurate in regards to RotS Anakin given his performance against Dooku and what Sidious is capable of against a baseline Mace ( also invalidating the quote regarding the tier system ) I can't actively prove it untrue in regards to Knightfall Anakin who's confirmed to be more powerful and thus I have to acknowledge that KFV = Sidious.

It is relevant. While Lucas's word supersedes the EU we have to assume he's working with the EU when making these statements. It may or may not. Btw the math would place Anakin at 160% of Palpatine not 200%.

3. Then remind me. Was it you or another who tried to claime baseline Mace was on T9? Because if it was you, then I don't quite understand how you reconcile Sidious being able to blitz him and the quote stating T9's are on the level when only environmental or stylistic advantages change the outcome of the fight.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sidious never blitzed or showcased the ability to blitz baseline mace. Mace not being able to save his friends doesn't mean mace can blitz him. Even when facing an equal in combat, its considerably hard to defend fodder alongside you

Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.

2. It's referring to them as of RotS. So you're in agreement, yes?

3. Baseline Mace would be on the border. And no, he isn't being blitzed by Sidious, Christ. I explained that above in my last post. He clearly reacts by stepping backward as Sidious does the Sheev spin, and that's the primary reason that he's unable to stop Agen from being struck down. Then Saesee dies because Sidious spins away from Mace to kill him, so Mace being on the other side would naturally have no way to stop that. I mean, even Kit Fisto was able to fight Palpatine, unless you think Fisto's faster than Mace.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.

The "before he realized what was happening" quotes are obvious hyperbole, lol. We see Mace fighting Sidious alongside Kit for a moment before Kit dies; unless you think that Mace didn't even realize he was fighting Sidious, then the quote's just hyperbolically saying that Mace was astonished by how quickly Sidious was attacking.

I mean, it literally says that Palpatine struck down Kolar, Tiin and Fisto before Mace knew what was happening, yet in both the film and novel (and the comic, IIRC), we have Mace fighting Sidious before Kit dies. So unless Mace didn't even know that he was fighting Sidious, then yeah, the quote is clearly hyperbole.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sidious is stated to be able to blitz him.
Nope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4(1:09)

Mace is very clearly reacting to sids parrying multiple strikes

Hyperbole is Hyperbole

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin was devastating Dooku even moreso than Yoda was. How is that not at least equal augmentation?

Sidious didn't blitz Mace at all. We clearly see Mace reacting before Sidious could even land the first blow, so he obviously wasn't blitzed. The quotes about him "not realizing what happened" are clearly hyperbole unless you think he and Kit were fighting Palpatine without even realizing it. As for Sidious striking down Agen and Saesee before Mace could do anything, we clearly see Mace retreating in response to Palpatine doing the spin attack, which is why he was too far away to stop Palpatine from gutting Kolar. After that, Palpatine moves AWAY from him to strike Saesee, meaning that even if Mace was moving in now he had no way of stopping that from happening.

Yes, Sidious is faster, but not by enough of a margin to blitz Mace, lol. That's ridiculous. Yoda couldn't blitz Dooku, and they're about on par with Sidious and Mace respectively.



So you're willing to have Kas'im and Obi-Wan serve as exceptions but not Anakin? Wow. More double standards and denial.



Anakin's wanked to that level because he deserves to be per fact and fiat; it's that simple.

Let's just look at this objectively: some people think that it's right for Anakin to be there, some people don't. And now you're trying to criminalize the viewpoints of the former and act like it's a sin to think that. What you're looking for amounts to suppression of thought/speech. You don't like it so you want it to be eradicated.



Yeah, we do have to agree to disagree because you're so in denial that you need therapy. You're acting like it's only me that'd be offended by something like that. If you made an RT and I spammed dozens of low showings in the comments section that aren't even relevant, I can assure you that you wouldn't be anywhere near as laid back as you are now.

Personally I don't feel Yoda was at his peak until RotS given his struggle with lifting mildly heavy objects and his inability to lift all of the Muntuur stones. Whether it was the war or something else that revitalized his abilities in this regard I cannot say but that's my stance on the matter.

I didn't say he blitzed him. I said he's capable of blitzing him. Mace moved back and lifted his blade into a defensive position while Sidious cut down Tiin and Kolar. While Mace might be able to react to him he would definitely have been overwhelmed nearly immediately had Sidious not needed to keep him alive to turn Anakin.

Read my first response in regards to Yoda/Dooku.

When there's nothing to suggest that Anakin's exception, yes.

I disagree. Which is why I combat his wank more strongly then others.

Yes.

Maybe, but then I probably wouldn't wank an already overwanked character.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It's referring to them as of RotS. So you're in agreement, yes?

3. Baseline Mace would be on the border. And no, he isn't being blitzed by Sidious, Christ. I explained that above in my last post. He clearly reacts by stepping backward as Sidious does the Sheev spin, and that's the primary reason that he's unable to stop Agen from being struck down. Then Saesee dies because Sidious spins away from Mace to kill him, so Mace being on the other side would naturally have no way to stop that. I mean, even Kit Fisto was able to fight Palpatine, unless you think Fisto's faster than Mace.

2. Knightfall Anakin, yes. Any other version, no.

3. I hadn't read your last post before making my response, though it didn't change my mind on anything. I never claimed he couldn't react. Simply that he'd be blitzed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The "before he realized what was happening" quotes are obvious hyperbole, lol. We see Mace fighting Sidious alongside Kit for a moment before Kit dies; unless you think that Mace didn't even realize he was fighting Sidious, then the quote's just hyperbolically saying that Mace was astonished by how quickly Sidious was attacking.

I mean, it literally says that Palpatine struck down Kolar, Tiin and Fisto before Mace knew what was happening, yet in both the film and novel (and the comic, IIRC), we have Mace fighting Sidious before Kit dies. So unless Mace didn't even know that he was fighting Sidious, then yeah, the quote is clearly hyperbole.
Additionally in the novelization sids catches the jedi off guard

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0r4jNhG9Z4(1:09)

Mace is very clearly reacting to sids parrying multiple strikes

Hyperbole is Hyperbole

Neither you or Nova seem to understand that a character may be able to react to another character but still be blitzed.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Additionally in the novelization sids catches the jedi off guard

If you think the Jedi lowered their guard simply because Palpatine told Tiin to read his mind you're more foolish then I thought.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova

I never claimed he couldn't react. Simply that he'd be blitzed.
-> Bases argument on a blatantly wrong interpretation of a quote
-> Discredits a plethora of quotes on the basis of some being contradictory

Originally posted by SunRazer
The "before he realized what was happening" quotes are obvious hyperbole, lol. We see Mace fighting Sidious alongside Kit for a moment before Kit dies; unless you think that Mace didn't even realize he was fighting Sidious, then the quote's just hyperbolically saying that Mace was astonished by how quickly Sidious was attacking.

I mean, it literally says that Palpatine struck down Kolar, Tiin and Fisto before Mace knew what was happening, yet in both the film and novel (and the comic, IIRC), we have Mace fighting Sidious before Kit dies. So unless Mace didn't even know that he was fighting Sidious, then yeah, the quote is clearly hyperbole.

A character can react to another character and still be blitzed.

I'm not referring to that quote though in the novel Tiin's killed before any of the other B team can react showing Sidious possesses the level of speed to be able to kill before any of them know what's happening.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Neither you or Nova seem to understand that a character may be able to react to another character but still be blitzed.

Sure, except there is literally nothing that implies sids can blitz mace

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Bases argument on a blatantly wrong interpretation of a quote
-> Discredits a plethora of quotes on the basis of some being contradictory

The quote I'm referencing is backed up by the novel and movie.

Contradicted quotes will be discarded by me, yes.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sure, except there is literally nothing that implies sids can blitz mace

Accept the fact that he didn't react when Tiin was cut down right in front of him in the novel and he was helpless to intervene while Tiin and Kolar were cut down in the movie.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Accept the fact that he didn't react when Tiin was cut down right in front of him in the novel and he was helpless to intervene while Tiin and Kolar were cut down in the movie.

Mace had stepped back(aka reacting). Mace wasn't in a position to intervene. More importantly, tiin or Kolar getting blitzed doesn't prove mace would get blitzed.

Mace doesn't have to defend other duelists to be able to contend with palps himself.

If Mace could actually successfully defend himself +his allies from sids, that would actually indicate clear superiority.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Personally I don't feel Yoda was at his peak until RotS given his struggle with lifting mildly heavy objects and his inability to lift all of the Muntuur stones. Whether it was the war or something else that revitalized his abilities in this regard I cannot say but that's my stance on the matter.

Well, since Anakin isn't actually better than Yoda in RotS then Yoda's improvement is just enough to justify why Anakin performed better against Dooku. That's it.

His inability to lift the Muntuur Stones was nearly a hundred years before the Clone Wars, btw.



Yeah, I know what you said. I was responding to that. Nothing suggests that he would've been overwhelmed nearly immediately.



Other than factual quotes which take precedence over any feats or anything of the sort, you mean.

Here's the thing: facts beat feats. So you can't use any feat or feat-absence argument to try to debunk something established by fact. If an abundance of quotes suggest something, then there's just no getting past that. You'll have to find something else other than "he hasn't shown energy projection on that level" because it's an invalid argument.

What exactly makes it fine to exempt Kas'im and Obi-Wan but not Anakin? Especially when Anakin is largely comparable to Obi-Wan in skillset.



It's not hard for you to say "I just don't like Anakin", you know.

Truth be told, I used to hate him as well. Only a select few portrayals of Anakin have redeemed him in my eyes.



He was underwanked then, you bozo.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, since Anakin isn't actually better than Yoda in RotS then Yoda's improvement is just enough to justify why Anakin performed better against Dooku. That's it.

His inability to lift the Muntuur Stones was nearly a hundred years before the Clone Wars, btw.



Yeah, I know what you said. I was responding to that. Nothing suggests that he would've been overwhelmed nearly immediately.



Other than factual quotes which take precedence over any feats or anything of the sort, you mean.

Here's the thing: facts beat feats. So you can't use any feat or feat-absence argument to try to debunk something established by fact. If an abundance of quotes suggest something, then there's just no getting past that. You'll have to find something else other than "he hasn't shown energy projection on that level" because it's an invalid argument.

What exactly makes it fine to exempt Kas'im and Obi-Wan but not Anakin? Especially when Anakin is largely comparable to Obi-Wan in skillset.



It's not hard for you to say "I just don't like Anakin", you know.

Truth be told, I used to hate him as well. Only a select few portrayals of Anakin have redeemed him in my eyes.



He was underwanked then, you bozo.

I'm copy and pasting this btw

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

Mace had stepped back(aka reacting).

Yes.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace wasn't in a position to intervene. More importantly, tiin or Kolar getting blitzed doesn't prove mace would get blitzed.

Sidious had turned his back to Mace in order to kill Tiin and Mace was in the same position he'd assumed before Sidious had killed Tiin and Kolar in the movie. In the novel he didn't even know Tiin was dead until he fell to the floor. THAT is why I think he'd get blitzed.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace doesn't have to defend other duelists to be able to contend with palps himself.

He needs to at least move into a position where he can better defend his allies when Sidious turns his back towards him.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
If Mace could actually successfully defend himself +his allies from sids, that would actually indicate clear superiority.

No it wouldn't. It would indicate that he could contend.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, since Anakin isn't actually better than Yoda in RotS then Yoda's improvement is just enough to justify why Anakin performed better against Dooku. That's it.

His inability to lift the Muntuur Stones was nearly a hundred years before the Clone Wars, btw.



Yeah, I know what you said. I was responding to that. Nothing suggests that he would've been overwhelmed nearly immediately.



Other than factual quotes which take precedence over any feats or anything of the sort, you mean.

Here's the thing: facts beat feats. So you can't use any feat or feat-absence argument to try to debunk something established by fact. If an abundance of quotes suggest something, then there's just no getting past that. You'll have to find something else other than "he hasn't shown energy projection on that level" because it's an invalid argument.

What exactly makes it fine to exempt Kas'im and Obi-Wan but not Anakin? Especially when Anakin is largely comparable to Obi-Wan in skillset.



It's not hard for you to say "I just don't like Anakin", you know.

Truth be told, I used to hate him as well. Only a select few portrayals of Anakin have redeemed him in my eyes.



He was underwanked then, you bozo.

Yes.

The fact that he didn't even realize Tiin had been cut down in the novel and that he didn't move from his position despite having had the space to either flank Sidious before he cut down Kolar or attack Sidious from behind when Sidious presented his back towards him and cut down Tiin.

What quote suggests his augmentation is better then his energy manipulation? You mean "T9's being the same but for environmental/stylistic advantages? Something that is thoroughly contradicted by Mace being a borderline "T9" and Anakin's performance against Dooku in comparisson to what Sidious is capable of against Mace. Yeah, sorry, that's doesn't fly with me.

Contradicted statements don't beat feats in my mind, sorry.

The fact that they've actively demonstrated to have that disparity and that Anakin's augmentation has not shown itself to be on the level of Sidious or Yoda.

I actually quite like Anakin. He's one of my favorite SW characters.

Not here and Ant was already doing enough on the Vine.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes.

The fact that he didn't even realize Tiin had been cut down in the novel and that he didn't move from his position despite having had the space to either flank Sidious before he cut down Kolar or attack Sidious from behind when Sidious presented his back towards him and cut down Tiin.

What quote suggests his augmentation is better then his energy manipulation? You mean "T9's being the same but for environmental/stylistic advantages? Something that is thoroughly contradicted by Mace being a borderline "T9" and Anakin's performance against Dooku in comparisson to what Sidious is capable of against Mace. Yeah, sorry, that's doesn't fly with me.

Contradicted statements don't beat feats in my mind, sorry.

The fact that they've actively demonstrated to have that disparity and that Anakin's augmentation has not shown itself to be on the level of Sidious or Yoda.

I actually quite like Anakin. He's one of my favorite SW characters.

Not here and Ant was already doing enough on the Vine.

1. Quote me the passage in the novel that says that. And in the novel, Saesee and Agen go up in front, so of course they're more vulnerable.

2. What quote? His feats are better with augmentation; in the novel, he's stronger and faster than Yoda even before he turns to the dark side. No idea what you're talking about for the rest of it. Sidious isn't capable of stomping Mace per Lucas.

3. Contradicted because of made-up excuses on your end, maybe. It aligns perfectly with established canon.

4. Other than him pummeling Dooku to a significantly greater degree than Yoda, and the novel directly stating that he's the fastest and strongest? Other than him Fisto'ing Drallig, someone on Fisto's level?

5. Doing enough how? The vast majority at the time were still putting him fairly low. Again, you're full of shit and trying to justify your actions with blatantly false claims.

1. Here.

"Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk.

Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor.

Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed.

His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head.

". . . hurt . . ."

He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire.

The door locked itself at his back.

"Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security-someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"

Then he smiled.

He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked.

In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop." - Revenge of the Sith.

Neither Mace, Kolar or Fisto were able to react as Tiin and Kolar were cut down. They were only able to angle their blades in a defensive position AFTER Sidious had blitzed their fellow Jedi. This lines up with the statement of Mace not being able to react as his fellow Jedi were cut down around him. The movie is a different affair of course.

Note: Also, my reference to Mace neglecting to move in defenses of Tiin or Kolar occurs in the movies. Should have clarified.

2. I asked you that... What are you trying to ask from me?

His feats aren't better, Yoda's carried a multiple ton cannon on his back prior to his peak. The quote you're referencing is contradicted ( at least in regards to speed ) as I've already covered.

Where does Lucas say he isn't capable of stomping a baseline Mace? Because that notion is contradicted in both the movie and novel.

3. How is pointing out that baseline Mace's inability to keep up with Sidious is contradictory to the quote that seemingly places T9's on the same level in regards to augmentation?

4. Already addressed your Yoda argument and the contradicting quotes. Considering there's nothing to suggest Drallig is Fisto level, no.

5. Lol. "Fairly low." You've proved me point if you think where you're placing hims is "fairly low." You can tell yourself whatever you like Nova. It doesn't change facts.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin. He's already tango'd with a much stronger Sith several times by S4.