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Which of these valk+ combatants takes victory?

Can Plagueis handle someone who can compete with Sidious?

Can Mace handle Sidious's master?

-Combatants at their peaks

Plagueis dispatches him with a gesture.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Plagueis dispatches valk with a gesture.
Well of course, but valk isn't in this fight

Mace.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Mace.

Plagueis. What's the case for Mace winning?

The reason they always give for Mace being able to take opponents far outside of his range; Vaapad.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The reason they always give for Mace being able to take opponents far outside of his range; Vaapad.

From what I've heard, Vaapad is extremely inconsistent and ambiguous. Are supposed to assume that Mace can just fight and defeat people more powerful than himself strictly due to using Vaapad? Because I thought his performance against Sidious was extremely circumstantial with factors contributing other than Vaapad.

It is. People are dumb though and will never learn unfortunately.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It is. People are dumb though and will never learn unfortunately.

How do we evaluate Mace and Vaapad when he's fighting dark side users other than Sidious?

He's drawing on his own inner darkness. That's it. The superconducting loop was a product of his fight with Sidious and not how Vaapad normally functions.

Plagueis blitzes

Mace could take sabers 5-6/10 if vaapad amped ; otherwise Plagueis wins force 10/10 and all-out 8-9/10

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's drawing on his own inner darkness. That's it. The superconducting loop was a product of his fight with Sidious and not how Vaapad normally functions.

So the darkness of his opponent doesn't matter? I thought the novel was portraying it as if Mace was drawing on both his own darkness but also channeling Sidious's darkness to amp himself even further. Or is that the outlying showing of Vaapad as you stated?

How Vaapad works doesn't change depending on who he's fighting, that's inane. Vaapad allows Mace to draw on his inner darkness without corrupting him, and yes, he can also draw on the darkness of those around him. It's not rocket science; it's a tactic that several Sith have employed as well, feeding on the fear of their enemies.

Plagues destroys

Originally posted by nfactor1995
So the darkness of his opponent doesn't matter? I thought the novel was portraying it as if Mace was drawing on both his own darkness but also channeling Sidious's darkness to amp himself even further. Or is that the outlying showing of Vaapad as you stated?

The outlier.

Plagueis ragdoll's. He won't restrict himself to saber combat or hold back in any way, meaning Windu will have no opportunity to scope out shatterpoints or utilize Vaapad

Lucas's statement that mace could compete with sids wasn't specific to saber combat

Vaapad also works on Force abilities, not just lightsaber combat; he used it to successfully repel Sidious' Force Speed and Lightning. So if we assume Mace can do it without any other factors, Plagueis isn't winning this.

Mace's circumstances provided him the ability to square up to him via Vaapad. An idea that Lucas clearly didn't disagree with when he line edited the novel.

your Vaapaad theories would hold up if it wasn't for the fact that Sidious took a dive in their fight

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He's drawing on his own inner darkness. That's it. The superconducting loop was a product of his fight with Sidious and not how Vaapad normally functions. I don't know, the text seems to state the opposite.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and the darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith lord, drew the shadows rage and power into his in most center-

And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon it's source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. "

Honest question, why would that only work on sidious and not Plagueis?

Originally posted by relentless1
your Vaapaad theories would hold up if it wasn't for the fact that Sidious took a dive in their fight in your opinion how big of a "dive" was he taking during their saber fight when Anakin came in and they we're fighting so fast he couldn't even see them?

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed - could that be palpatine? "

"Their blades flared and flashed , crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them"

Originally posted by Raptor22
I don't know, the text seems to state the opposite.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and the darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith lord, drew the shadows rage and power into his in most center-

And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury upon it's source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. "

Honest question, why would that only work on sidious and not Plagueis?

Partially due to the state Mace was in, when Sidious's identity was made known to him his "greatest love" was revealed to be a lie pushing him closer to the darkness then he ever had been before. This along with Mace never having seemed to gain any amp from any of the previous Darksiders he fought ( Depa, Sora, Ventress, Vos, etc. ) indicates that it was special state he was able to sink into only in his fight with Sidious.

I.E. his ability to draw on Sidious's darkness came about from him being pushed closer to the edge by the revelation of Palpatine's identity.

That evidence is all well and dandy for explaining why Mace performed better than usual, but it doesn't do jack shit to defend the stance that the mechanics of Vaapad change on the fly.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Partially due to the state Mace was in, when Sidious's identity was made known to him his "greatest love" was revealed to be a lie pushing him closer to the darkness then he ever had been before. This along with Mace never having seemed to gain any amp from any of the previous Darksiders he fought ( Depa, Sora, Ventress, Vos, etc. ) indicates that it was special state he was able to sink into only in his fight with Sidious.
And why would him having to let go of his attachment be a temporary change rather than a permanent character confrontation induced boost?

I think it's possible Mace can draw on the darkness of his opponents while fighting them, I just don't think he can do so to the extent he did in fight against Sidious without the factors that were present during that fight. And I phrased my first comment in the way I did because I wasn't sure if he could ( or rather, would ) draw on the power of his opponent's darkness as he might consider that risk of falling to the Darkside too great. Where in his fight with Sidious he either was close enough to the Darkside that he didn't consider the risk or thought it was worth it to have a chance at defeating Sidious.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And why would him having to let go of his attachment be a temporary change rather than a permanent character confrontation induced boost?

Because people recover from emotionally damaging events as time passes... It's a general condition of human nature.

Its explicitly stated force users grow in power from confrontations, both physical and mental. Mace's inner darkness grew from a massive mental confrontation where his one true attachment, the republic was under the control of his mortal enemy. So accordingly, it would be a moment of massive growth.

"Its explicitly stated force users grow in power from confrontations, both physical and mental."

Yes... That's generally what occurs when people have to overcome adversity...

"Mace's inner darkness grew from a massive mental confrontation where his one true attachment, the republic was under the control of his mortal enemy. So accordingly, it would be a moment of massive growth."

Sorry, but no. Mace was perilously close to the Darkside because the emotional wound was fresh. People generally get over things as time passes. Mace wouldn't be permanently closer to the Darkside because of this event.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I think it's possible Mace can draw on the darkness of his opponents while fighting them, I just don't think he can do so to the extent he did in fight against Sidious without the factors that were present during that fight. And I phrased my first comment in the way I did because I wasn't sure if he could ( or rather, would ) draw on the power of his opponent's darkness as he might consider that risk of falling to the Darkside too great. Where in his fight with Sidious he either was close enough to the Darkside that he didn't consider the risk or thought it was worth it to have a chance at defeating Sidious. I see where u'r coming from but I've always thought that the extant of the amp had more to do with the fact that mace was drawing from palpatines imense darkness/power/rage as opposed to complete novices in comparison such as depa, sora, ventress or vos. Palpatine basically represents the epitome of darkness / rage etc... So an amp that is partially fueled by those things would logically be greater.

I do agree however that his ability to unleash his own inner darkness and skirt the dark side was because he was able to cut lose and go for broke because he was fighting for the republic that he loved and blah blah blah...

But I don't think that would matter in a forum match here, where the characters are fighting to the best of their abilities. Especially against a sith Lord of Plagueis's stature and power.

Having already dealt with Palpatine and experiencing his power I have no doubt that if faced with Plagueis and his immense darkside power rivaling palpatines own, that Mace would amp (pun intended) things up accordingly.

He might have been, but that's besides the point, because he died immediately thereafter.

I don't think it makes much sense to claim that the superconducting loop itself was result of Mace drawing closer to the dark side, though. Instead of focusing on the particulars, I'm just going to lay out my understanding of the subject.

What Vaapad itself does is allows Mace sink into a trance to channel his dark emotions, allowing him to draw from the same pool of resources as the Sith do without being corrupted. Can we agree on that?

Now, part of that pool that the Sith can draw on is the emotions of those around them, which they use to ratchet up their own. Vaapad's technicalities aside, that that's all Mace is doing on a practical level; it's not a special ability. Most Sith can do it on some level or another. It's not unique to Vaapad, nor is it dependent on special circumstances.

Hell, looking at the text, it's actually implied to be an inevitable consequence of entering Vaapad:

Now, that doesn't mean that Mace's mindset had no impact on the superconducting loop. It definitely did.

If Vaapad is an open channel, then him sinking deeper into Vaapad than ever before would mean exposing himself more both to the darkness within and around himself, and drawing more heavily on it. It's not that Vaapad didn't do those same things before, but rather that Mace hadn't been willing to go that far until that point.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Now, that doesn't mean that Mace's mindset had no impact on the superconducting loop. It definitely did.

If Vaapad is an open channel, then him sinking deeper into Vaapad than ever before would mean exposing himself more both to the darkness within and around himself, and drawing more heavily on it. It's not that Vaapad didn't do those same things before, but rather that Mace hadn't been willing to go that far until that point. Do u think the amount of power his opponent has effects the amount of power mace can draw on?

It's likely, yes.




There's nothing to suggest Mace can use the special variant of Consume Essence that Scourge does, but the mechanics should still be similar.

Yeah, the "reflective" properties of Vaapad apply equally to Plagueis. Only the "excess darkness" in Mace was exclusive to Palpatine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Now, that doesn't mean that Mace's mindset had no impact on the superconducting loop. It definitely did.

If Vaapad is an open channel, then him sinking deeper into Vaapad than ever before would mean exposing himself more both to the darkness within and around himself, and drawing more heavily on it. It's not that Vaapad didn't do those same things before, but rather that Mace hadn't been willing to go that far until that point.

I can agree with that.