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- Standard gear.
- Fight takes place inside the SHIELD helicarrier hanger bay from CA:TWS.
- Opponents start 100 feet apart.

Who wins?

Falcon was pretty pumped up in Civil War. Spider-Man webbing him up aside, he was consistently giving IM & War Machine a run for their money.

So assuming no Ego/Celestial power up for Star-Lord I give my vote to Falcon.

Peter's just as good as Falcon in the air, and between his jet boots and Rocket's jetpack he's fast enough to reach orbit in a few seconds. Plus his guns are pretty accurate and much easier to hit targets than with Falcon's twin machine pistols.

I'd give Pete the edge, unless Falcon kicks him while they're flying.

Starlord would win.

Starlords blasters had a good feat against EGO's "human body" when he got pissed off. That would end Falcon really quickly.
And Falcons "tech" is pretty primitive compared to what Peter has encountered in space.

Well in "theory" space tech should always be better. But then the Iron Man armour is Earth built armour so... feats count more methinks.

Falcon seems more agile in the air to me. It's hard hitting that's guy once he's flying. And he had some nice fire power in Civil War on top of pretty durable wings which at least protect him from bullets.

Doesn't really matter if Peter's guns are more powerful than Falcons, fact is Peter can still be killed by Falcon's arsenal... at least until shown otherwise. And Falcon has remote targeting missiles plus bullet proof wings that he uses to shield himself. In a pure gunfight Falcon should win, it just depends on what constitutes as Peter's standard gear because he had some pretty funky gadgets in GotG1.

And Falcon can be killed by Peter's. His guns punch through starship metal and Kree armor like nothing. Even a random gun Rocket pickd up in GotG 2 was punching clean through reinforced doors and walls to hit the mutineers.

It's also been mentioned how his main guns blew Ego to pieces.

His guns are far more powerful than the small arms fire Falcon used his wings to block.

Also he was using his guns to shoot down Sovereign ships, so yeah, Falcon's not blocking those.

Originally posted by KingD19
Also he was using his guns to shoot down Sovereign ships, so yeah, Falcon's not blocking those.

Technically there's no real proof that Quill's guns can get through Falcon's wings. But even if they can, that just puts them in the same boat where neither opponent can block each other's shots. Except Falcon still has the advantage of homing missiles, red wing, assisted aiming technology, some degree of armor, faster gun fire, better flying agility and better displayed melee combat.

^

x2 ^

I'm not sure about the better flying agility or melee skill. Star-Lord was dodging fire from dozens of Sovereign ships during flight towards the end of GotG vol. 2, and was doing a decent job of tussling with Gamora without instantly getting destroyed in vol. 1, which is a melee feat beyond anything Falcon has done. Plus, he has those magnetic traps, energy bola etc. And he is naturally more durable than Sam, which would compensate for the armour. He routinely scuffles with aliens, who are tougher than humans, and took a multi-storey drop without any issues in vol. 1, while chasing Gamora. IIRC, he also took a hit or two from the Abilisk (the big, tough tentacle monster) they fought at the beginning of vol. 2 without being hurt. Both are extremely agile fliers. Both are tougher than unarmoured humans. Falcon has more firepower, but Star-Lord has more exotic toys. I find it hard to pick a winner here.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'm not sure about the better flying agility or melee skill. Star-Lord was dodging fire from dozens of Sovereign ships during flight towards the end of GotG vol. 2, and was doing a decent job of tussling with Gamora without instantly getting destroyed in vol. 1, which is a melee feat beyond anything Falcon has done. Plus, he has those magnetic traps, energy bola etc. And he is naturally more durable than Sam, which would compensate for the armour. He routinely scuffles with aliens, who are tougher than humans, and took a multi-storey drop without any issues in vol. 1, while chasing Gamora. IIRC, he also took a hit or two from the Abilisk (the big, tough tentacle monster) they fought at the beginning of vol. 2 without being hurt. Both are extremely agile fliers. Both are tougher than unarmoured humans. Falcon has more firepower, but Star-Lord has more exotic toys. I find it hard to pick a winner here.

Falcon has tussled with IM and Warmachine in the air and even got the advantage. That's a better flying skill/agility feat than Starlord going up against the Sovereign ships. Because unlike those Sovereign ships, IM and Warmachine can at least hit stuff when they aim. Plus IM and Warmachine have better demonstrated strength and durability feats than any of those aliens, including Gamora. Granted, Falcon didn't go h2h with them for too long but the fact that they weren't completely able to overpower him in the air is still telling.

He spent pretty much all his time running away from them, and even needed Hawkeye and Ant-Man to get Tony off his back the one time. And I don't recall either of them using anything more than repulsors on him, which have a far slower rate of fire than either Peter's guns or the Sovereign ships. And he didn't go proper H2H with either of them. Closest to H2H was when he cheapshot kicked Tony while he was looking at Giant-Man, who had just grabbed Rhodey. At no point during the airport fight does he engage either of them in extended H2H. I just don't see a very big gap in their flight agility.

The Sovereign hit the ship just fine once Ayesha gave them the green light to kill them.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
. I just don't see a very big gap in their flight agility.

You really think Quill can do the same aerial spin kicks that Falcon does or his usual "curl into a ball and drop altitude only to open wings and gain altitude" and do them just as gracefully?

You think Quill would faired just as well against Antman in a h2h fight?

Here's a compilation of Falcon's fight scenes. I don't see Quill being able to pull off majority of the moves in this video:
https://youtu.be/gfNEwhPxeGM

Then here's Quill's first meeting against Gamora where he didn't seem to land even single hit without using his gadgets.

https://youtu.be/HZgn4S9-fWo

Unfortunately, there are no proper clips of GotG 2 on youtube just yet, but Quill was bobbing, ducking and dodging fire from all sides during the final battle. And Peter doesn't need to do a lot of the wing maneuvers, as his flight gear is much more streamlined. Just because he doesn't pull off the exact same moves doesn't change the end result. He doesn't need to do any rolls or other moves to make those stops/changes in direction. Also, Falcon's wings are two enormous targets for Quill to aim at, unlike his own boots and pack. And considering that Quill's guns have been shown to have a much greater damage output than the bullets Sam's wings have blocked, there is no proof that his wings would be able to withstand even a single shot. After all, the Judas bullets in Luke Cage, as well as various film/tv feats featuring Asgardian metals, have shown us how Earth-based materials compare to space/alien materials.

Peter also dodged a near pointblank shot from Korath's energy rifle at the beginning of the first film (without even using flight). And, in terms of durability, later in the film got flung around by Korath without being hurt (and Korath displayed superhuman strength). Also, Star-lord could potentially pin Falcon in place using one of those mines he employed against Korath's men in the first film. Peter is also a very adaptable combatant, as shown in instances like when he stuck one of those rocket propulsion units on Gamora's leg and then remotely sent her flying during their GotG 1 scuffle.

Falcon could win this. But I can see Star-lord pulling it off as well.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Then here's Quill's first meeting against Gamora where he didn't seem to land even single hit without using his gadgets.

https://youtu.be/HZgn4S9-fWo

He has his gadgets for this fight. Hence why I mentioned melee skill, not necessarily pure H2H. He was not looking for a fight at that point. He was trying to sell the power stone. So, that was just part of the stuff he carried on him i.e. part of his standard gear.

After all, without his own tech/gadgets, Sam literally didn't even last a full 5 seconds against Winter Soldier, and also got his ass kicked by Rumlow.

On a random note, damn, I forgot about some of those strength feats for Gamora. Being able to muscle out of Groot's vines is pretty damn impressive, considering similar vines were able to lift like a dozen men off the ground and casually ragdoll them.

And to answer the Ant-Man question. Yes, if Peter had a similar means of tracking tiny Scott, I could see him doing just as well, if not better, seeing as he isn't above being a d*** in a fight. Not that Sam being able to track tiny opponents will matter much here, considering both he and Peter are normal size. What Peter will have to watch out for is Redwing IMO. It has decent range, can fire bullets and small rockets, and operate remotely at considerable range from Falcon. So, even if Peter used that weird magnet trap on Sam, Falcon could still potentially use Redwing to attack him, like he did with Spiderman.

I'd say Redwing is the deciding factor.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Unfortunately, there are no proper clips of GotG 2 on youtube just yet, but Quill was bobbing, ducking and dodging fire from all sides during the final battle. And Peter doesn't need to do a lot of the wing maneuvers, as his flight gear is much more streamlined. Just because he doesn't pull off the exact same moves doesn't change the end result. He doesn't need to do any rolls or other moves to make those stops/changes in direction. Also, Falcon's wings are two enormous targets for Quill to aim at, unlike his own boots and pack. And considering that Quill's guns have been shown to have a much greater damage output than the bullets Sam's wings have blocked, there is no proof that his wings would be able to withstand even a single shot. After all, the Judas bullets in Luke Cage, as well as various film/tv feats featuring Asgardian metals, have shown us how Earth-based materials compare to space/alien materials.

Peter also dodged a near pointblank shot from Korath's energy rifle at the beginning of the first film (without even using flight). And, in terms of durability, later in the film got flung around by Korath without being hurt (and Korath displayed superhuman strength). Also, Star-lord could potentially pin Falcon in place using one of those mines he employed against Korath's men in the first film. Peter is also a very adaptable combatant, as shown in instances like when he stuck one of those rocket propulsion units on Gamora's leg and then remotely sent her flying during their GotG 1 scuffle.

Falcon could win this. But I can see Star-lord pulling it off as well.

I am not saying Falcon is a more effective flyer than Quill (though that can certainly be argued). I'm saying he's a more agile flyer. Quill is not capable of pulling off the maneuvers that Falcon does, not with the same intricacy and not with the same gracefulness. He might be able to do other maneuvers that may or may not be just as effective but in terms of aerial agility, he just not in Falcon's league. In fact, compared to the other flyers in the MCU Starlord seems pretty clunky in that department.

You say that, yet he was surrounded by dozens upon dozens of Sovereign ships and was flying around with a jet pack dodging them all for several minutes while blasting them out of the sky. That's better than Falcon dodging the AA fire in Cap 2.

I guess an ice skater would beat a MMA fighter because of 'gracefulness'

Originally posted by KingD19
You say that, yet he was surrounded by dozens upon dozens of Sovereign ships and was flying around with a jet pack dodging them all for several minutes while blasting them out of the sky. That's better than Falcon dodging the AA fire in Cap 2.

So are you saying you think Starlord can do the same aerial maneuvers that Sam can? The spinning aerial kicks, the cannonball maneuvers?

Because I'm pretty sure if Sam was in Quill's position he wouldn't have had any trouble dodging those sovereign ships either.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
I guess an ice skater would beat a MMA fighter because of 'gracefulness'

In terms of maneuverability on the ice? Yes. Especially when the ice skater actually has better h2h feats than the MMA fighter.

Also gonna point out that Falcon is a highly trained US pilot and highly trained with the Falcon system that involves a jet pack and wings for him to actually move around.

Star-Lord has simply been flying stuff(at least the Milano) since he was 10, and is skill enough with his jet boots and jet pack to move around just as easily if not easier than guys like Iron Man who need jet boots, gauntlet thrusters, and jet thrusters to scoot around all weird in the air. Even Falcon.

I'd say Star-Lord is one of the best tech aided flyers we've seen. Definitely right up there with Falcon.

As for h2h, Falcon got taken down by Rumlow and Ant-Man and had to run from Bucky. Peter fought h2h with Gamora(superhuman) and Korath(also superhuman) and was just fine taking extended beatings from them. He was even strong enough to tackle Gamora and Groot around and was one-shotting Kree Soldiers as well as Kyln guards and such. He's got better fighting feats than Falcon who has only ever lost against big names.

Originally posted by KingD19
Also gonna point out that Falcon is a highly trained US pilot and highly trained with the Falcon system that involves a jet pack and wings for him to actually move around.

Star-Lord has simply been flying stuff(at least the Milano) since he was 10, and is skill enough with his jet boots and jet pack to move around just as easily if not easier than guys like Iron Man who need jet boots, gauntlet thrusters, and jet thrusters to scoot around all weird in the air. Even Falcon.

I'd say Star-Lord is one of the best tech aided flyers we've seen. Definitely right up there with Falcon.

There's no proof that he has been using that jetpack since he was 10. His ship flying skills are not going to be needed her because his ship is not part of the fight.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I am not saying Falcon is a more effective flyer than Quill (though that can certainly be argued). I'm saying he's a more agile flyer. Quill is not capable of pulling off the maneuvers that Falcon does, not with the same intricacy and not with the same gracefulness. He might be able to do other maneuvers that may or may not be just as effective but in terms of aerial agility, he just not in Falcon's league. In fact, compared to the other flyers in the MCU Starlord seems pretty clunky in that department.

This is a fight. Punisher isn't as graceful a fighter as Daredevil, yet the end result is about the same. Star-lord has proven himself very capable of using his flight skillfully and effectively in combat, gunning down various targets while simultaneously avoiding fire from multiple opponents. Whether you want to call it graceful or not, doing what he did requires a serious amount of aerial skill, agility, as well as accuracy.

Anyway, bottom line is that both these guys have displayed enough aerial skill and ability that neither is tagging the other one easily. However, as I pointed out, Falcon is a much bigger target than Quill is.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There's no proof that he has been using that jetpack since he was 10. His ship flying skills are not going to be needed her because his ship is not part of the fight.

Never said he used the jetpack since he was 10, the parenthesis says at least the Milano, as that's the only thing he stated. Also Rocket only invented them for the group in GotG2. He used the jet boots before that, which he was just as skilled with and had an extra surprise since he could slap them on someone else and remotely operate it.

My point and Vault's stands though, Peter is just as impressive if not more in the air than Falcone.

Originally posted by KingD19
As for h2h, Falcon got taken down by Rumlow and Ant-Man and had to run from Bucky. Peter fought h2h with Gamora(superhuman) and Korath(also superhuman) and was just fine taking extended beatings from them. He was even strong enough to tackle Gamora and Groot around and was one-shotting Kree Soldiers as well as Kyln guards and such. He's got better fighting feats than Falcon who has only ever lost against big names.

Well, Peter has one really big advantage, in terms of a pure H2H bout, in that he is way more durable than Sam, or any regular human for that matter. I honestly don't think Sam would be able to seriously harm him if it came down to a pure fist fight.

Originally posted by KingD19
Never said he used the jetpack since he was 10, the parenthesis says at least the Milano, as that's the only thing he stated. Also Rocket only invented them for the group in GotG2. He used the jet boots before that, which he was just as skilled with and had an extra surprise since he could slap them on someone else and remotely operate it.

My point and Vault's stands though, Peter is just as impressive if not more in the air than Falcone.

Oh hell no. Watch the first scenes in GOTG to see just how well (or not well) Quill flies with just those jet boots. He has no hope of competing against the regular MCU flyers if all he has is jet boots.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This is a fight. Punisher isn't as graceful a fighter as Daredevil, yet the end result is about the same. Star-lord has proven himself very capable of using his flight skillfully and effectively in combat, gunning down various targets while simultaneously avoiding fire from multiple opponents. Whether you want to call it graceful or not, doing what he did requires a serious amount of aerial skill, agility, as well as accuracy.

Anyway, bottom line is that both these guys have displayed enough aerial skill and ability that neither is tagging the other one easily. However, as I pointed out, Falcon is a much bigger target than Quill is.

You're focusing too much on "graceful" and completely neglecting agility. While there are other aspects that factor into a fight, maneuverability and agility are pretty high factors. Let's not pretend they don't count.

What high end flyer has Quill gone up against that tested his flying skills?

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're focusing too much on "graceful" and completely neglecting agility. While there are other aspects that factor into a fight, maneuverability and agility are pretty high factors. Let's not pretend they don't count.

What high end flyer has Quill gone up against that tested his flying skills?

At no point did I pretend those things don't count. And again, he has plenty of maneuverability and agility. He would have been shot to shit at the end of volume 2 if he didn't. He also showed good aerial agility against the Abilisk during the opening fight. He doesn't need to go up against a singular opponent for that to be obvious. If anything, being able to defend against dozens of spaceships at once is better than taking on singular opponents. And for that matter, the two individuals Falcon went up against, IM and WM, didn't use anywhere near their full arsenal against him. If either Tony or Rhodey really wanted to kill Sam, he would have been dead. And again, Falcon has two enormous wings to shoot at. And we know that only one needs to be taken out to render Falcon's flight useless, as seen in TWS.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, Peter has one really big advantage, in terms of a pure H2H bout, in that he is way more durable than Sam, or any regular human for that matter. I honestly don't think Sam would be able to seriously harm him if it came down to a pure fist fight. Which it won't since Peter will blast the f out of him.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Which it won't since Peter will blast the f out of him.


If he can hit him.

^ And he doesn't get hit first.

I'm still curious as to how dodging dozens of Sovereign ships firing on him at once makes a good case for Falcon being able to easily hit him.

Originally posted by KingD19
I'm still curious as to how dodging dozens of Sovereign ships firing on him at once makes a good case for Falcon being able to easily hit him.

Easily? No. But Falcon dodged gunfire from automatically aimed guns from hellicarriers, shooting different kinds of rounds (some anti-air). Starlord at least has the excuse that he was being fired at and missed due to human error (or sovereign error if you prefer).

Besdies, fodder aim always sucks. Chitauri, Hydra, Dark Elves, Sovereign... all of them miss stupidly. At least Falcon can say he's fought against Warmachine and IM in the air. What feat can Starlord claim that doesn't involve him fighting fodder in the air?

Also, you're ignoring Falcon's homing missiles.

Originally posted by KingD19
I'm still curious as to how dodging dozens of Sovereign ships firing on him at once makes a good case for Falcon being able to easily hit him.


No I'm sorry, Falcon's flight agility and evasion of attacks he's displayed on screen are far superior to Star Lord's (visually at least).

But I guess we'll have to wait for Gotg2 YouTube vids to make the comparison clear cut.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If he can hit him. Considering how exaggeratedly big his wings are I don't see why not.

Again, Falcon fought WM and IM who were holding back and not using anywhere near their full arsenal. He can't compete with them if they go all out. If people disagree, they are welcome to make the threads and see how those turn out.

Also, what are so great about his missiles, considering they couldn't actually hit a Spiderman with an untrained spider-sense or a WM who was flying in a straight line?

I still think that Falcon has a much better shot if he tries flanking Peter, using Redwing.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Again, Falcon fought WM and IM who were holding back and not using anywhere near their full arsenal. He can't compete with them if they go all out. If people disagree, they are welcome to make the threads and see how those turn out.

Also, what are so great about his missiles, considering they couldn't actually hit a Spiderman with an untrained spider-sense or a WM who was flying in a straight line?

I still think that Falcon has a much better shot if he tries flanking Peter, using Redwing.

You do realize Falcon also wasn't going all out right? Thus why he wasn't using his more lethal arsenal.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You do realize Falcon also wasn't going all out right? Thus why he wasn't using his more lethal arsenal.

Except he literally shot rockets/missiles at both Spiderman and War Machine, whereas neither Tony or Rhodey did the same to Sam. IM or WM > Falcon, if going all out. Again, if you disagree, feel free to make another thread about it.

Just to be clear, I don't think Star-lord has a snowball's chance in hell of beating a going all out IM or WM either. Both Falcon and Star-lord are a step below those two IMO, which is why I consider them a decent match for each other.

As I said, both are agile (even if you consider Falcon better in that area, Peter is no slouch, plus Falcon is a bigger target), both have decent melee ability when geared up, one is armoured and one has naturaly enhanced durability, and both have enough firepower to hurt/kill the other one if they do land hits. The difference is Falcon has Redwing as a kind of sidekick, whereas Peter has exotic toys, like the energy bola and that magnetic/suction trap thing he used against Korath's men.

I still maintain that both have the potential to win depending on how they utilise their gear.

Why are we using Starlords final fight as a showing for his agility? Wasn't he flying using celestial powers at that point like his dad? I figured thats why Yondu had to fly him off planet at the end when his powers were gone.

Anyway way, Falcon wins in an aerial battle. Quills not tagging him with any of his gear other than MAYBE his standard blaster and even thats reaching considering how Falcon maneuvered between high caliber rounds and IM/Rhodey's repulsors. Meanwhile, Falcon is shooting actual bullets which will tag Quill sooner rather than later considering higher velocity and the fact that Quills natural durability wont stop a bullet.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Why are we using Starlords final fight as a showing for his agility? Wasn't he flying using celestial powers at that point like his dad? I figured thats why Yondu had to fly him off planet at the end when his powers were gone.

He was using a rocket pack and boots before that, when the Sovereign attacked. He later gave his pack away so that some of the others could get away.

Only after that did he and Ego go all DBZ.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
IM or WM > Falcon, if going all out. Again, if you disagree, feel free to make another thread about it.


I don't think anybody's going to disagree with that lol

Point is the way he kept up with them in flight avoid their hits, and was able to get hits on them was damn impressive.

Him evading Vision's blast was also really impressive.


Originally posted by Arachnid1
Meanwhile, Falcon is shooting actual bullets which will tag Quill sooner rather than later considering higher velocity and the fact that Quills natural durability wont stop a bullet.


Not just bullets, he has rockets as well. Strong enough to effect War Machine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't think anybody's going to disagree with that lol

Point is the way he kept up with them in flight avoid their hits, and was able to get hits on them was damn impressive.

Him evading Vision's blast was also really impressive.

Not just bullets, he has rockets as well. Strong enough to effect War Machine.

He barely got hits in on IM, and one was when Tony was stationary and not even looking at him. The only other one I can recall was when he got hit by Redwing, which Tony flew right into, like a moron. And what effect did those rockets have on WM? They barely even affected his flight path. He literally had to weave slightly. Falcon also needed other people to run interference for him when IM was in pursuit (Hawkeye and Ant-Man). And the point is that if either IM or WM had bothered to really go hard at Falcon, he most likely would not have survived long enough to do any of that. So, it's not as impressive as people are making it out to be. It's like using the IM and Hulk fights against Thor from Avengers to talk them up without acknowledging the fact that Thor was holding back and not using his full arsenal.

I will give you that the Vision blast dodge was decent, but that's about it.

Obviously, his feats against IM or WM are not bad but, given the level of lethality IM and WM applied during the encounters, I could see Star-Lord pulling off similar.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And what effect did those rockets have on WM? They barely even affected his flight path. He literally had to weave slightly.


Well firstly it seemed as if he was aiming in his path, but not directly at him IIRC.

Second if it was having a such negligible effect on him then why ask Vision to intervene.

And jeez it was a good job Falcon evaded Vision's blast, cause that shot would have killed him for sure.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well firstly it seemed as if he was aiming in his path, but not directly at him IIRC.

Second if it was having a such negligible effect on him then why ask Vision to intervene.

And jeez it was a good job Falcon evaded Vision's blast, cause that shot would have killed him for sure.

Because they were actively pursuing Cap and Bucky, and couldn't afford any potential distractions at that point (making what ended up happening kind of ironic). Which is why he initially asked Vision to intervene before he fired off the rockets, "Vision, I've got a bandit on my 6". He had to ask a second time, after the rockets were fired, because Vision was too focused on Scarlet Witch. And we visibly see that it barely threw him off course, never mind had any serious effect on his suit.

And I already said dodging that blast was good. And Vision was being emo at the time because of Wanda and f***** up, which he himself admitted later.

^ My point is if he wasn't a threat or even a distraction then he wouldn't bother calling Vision. Or just say it once, he certainly wouldn't say it a second time.

But given he's fought him earlier he knows his level of threat.

Also again Falcon didn't seem to even be aiming directly at him Iirc, but will have to double check that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ My point is if he wasn't a threat or even a distraction then he wouldn't bother calling Vision. Or just say it once, he certainly wouldn't say it a second time.

But given he's fought him earlier he knows his level of threat.

Also again Falcon didn't seem to even be aiming directly at him Iirc, but will have to double check that.

Why wouldn't he say it twice, when Vision notably failed to respond the first time? His attention was focused on the Quinjet, and he clearly wanted to keep his focus there, hence why he contacted Vision to get rid of Falcon. He was perfectly capable of turning around and facing off against Falcon himself, but that would have compromised the pursuit of Cap and Bucky. And there is a huge difference between being a distraction and actually being a threat.

He mostly chased Falcon around you mean, where Falcon never managed to hit him with any rockets either.

Bottom line is you have zero concrete proof that Falcon's rockets would pose any real threat to WM, especially when the latter can tank getting hit by an exploding gas truck (which is far more destructive than any of Falcon's rockets/missiles have shown to be). And, quite frankly, what does it matter? It's already been acknowledged that Peter won't be tanking any rockets if he gets hit.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller


He mostly chased Falcon around you mean, where Falcon never managed to hit him with any rockets either.


Was Falcon even aiming for direct hits?

Given how he chases to save WM after he's hit by Vision, I'd say that's unlikely.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Bottom line is you have zero concrete proof that Falcon's rockets would pose any real threat to WM,

Why exactly do I need to prove that when WM was specifically calling for Vision to deal with him?

You can speculate all you want on that but the obvious reasoning would be he didn't want Falcon to stop him ergo Falcon potentially could stop him if he's not fully focused on him.


Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
especially when the latter can tank getting hit by an exploding gas truck (which is far more destructive than any of Falcon's rockets/missiles have shown to be).


And exactly how many military grade rockets is that exploding gas tank supposed to equal?



Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And, quite frankly, what does it matter? It's already been acknowledged that Peter won't be tanking any rockets if he gets hit.


Because you're taking the argument the wrong way. No one's claiming Falcon >/= WM. What we're saying is he did some impressive flying and combat and dodging against them (IM. WM & Vision). Add that to the almost limitless firepower he was evading in WS, plus his multiple rockets and Red Wing, then yeah, minus any celestial boost for Quill, Falcon looks way more impressive.

Falcon is clearly the more impressive aerial fighter, I don't know how this is even a debate. Quill has better gear, but once Falcon gets off the ground Quill won't lay a hand on him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Was Falcon even aiming for direct hits?

Given how he chases to save WM after he's hit by Vision, I'd say that's unlikely.



You're missing the point. You claimed he would know the danger level because of what happened earlier, yet Falcon failed to do much more than run away from him. Yet, according to you, he would know that Falcon could stop him with his arsenal, which is why he called Vision.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Why exactly do I need to prove that when WM was specifically calling for Vision to deal with him?

You can speculate all you want on that but the obvious reasoning would be he didn't want Falcon to stop him ergo Falcon potentially could stop him if he's not fully focused on him.

You say I am speculating yet that's exactly what you were doing. Cap and Bucky were flying off with the Quinjet. They already had a head start. Even a small delay would have hampered the pursuit. Him asking Vision to deal with Sam in no way proves that he would/could "stop" him. Because, to me, it is pretty obvious that if you are busy pursuing someone, any kind of distraction is best avoided. It's literally the most tactically sound choice. If you are occupied, and one of your teammates isn't, then delegate the secondary task to them.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

And exactly how many military grade rockets is that exploding gas tank supposed to equal?

Dude, you can visibly see the difference in destructive power. Also, Iron Man, whose suit was weaker than War Machine's in this, took one of Clint's exploding arrows to the chest, and it failed to cause any serious damage. In previous films, Iron Man suits have been hit with actual missiles from individuals like Iron Monger without sustaining significant damage (and, in that case, the missile in question turned a bus into a giant fireball). I have now mentioned feats for both those suits taking explosions without significant damage so, other than your interpretation of the call to Vision, what actual feats do you have to support the idea that those rockets would seriously harm him. Who has he actually taken down with them that compares to WM in terms of durability?

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Because you're taking the argument the wrong way. No one's claiming Falcon >/= WM. What we're saying is he did some impressive flying and combat and dodging against them (IM. WM & Vision). Add that to the almost limitless firepower he was evading in WS, plus his multiple rockets and Red Wing, then yeah, minus any celestial boost for Quill, Falcon looks way more impressive.

Not at all. Right now, I am simply disputing the notion that Falcon's rockets could do serious damage to WM. I already acknowledged that Falcon's weapons would hurt Peter. And Peter had impressive aerial agility against dozens of Sovereign ships from multiple directions. His blasters can obliterate alien metals, and he has things like the trap he used against Korath's mean, which doesn't actually require a direct hit. It just needs to get close.

Also... I just had the most random thought. Could Peter beat a black guy in a dance-off?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except he literally shot rockets/missiles at both Spiderman and War Machine, whereas neither Tony or Rhodey did the same to Sam. IM or WM > Falcon, if going all out. Again, if you disagree, feel free to make another thread about it.

No one here is saying that Falcon can beat IM or WM. I'm just pointing out that Falcon playing aerial tag with IM and WM (and even Vision) is a lot more impressive than Starlord going up against random fodder, because we all know fodder aim is crappy. And the fact that IM and WM weren't able to easily overpower Falcon in their brief exchanges is also worth noting.

Also, are you saying Falcon was going all out against IM, WM and Spiderman?

Originally posted by FrothByte
No one here is saying that Falcon can beat IM or WM. I'm just pointing out that Falcon playing aerial tag with IM and WM (and even Vision) is a lot more impressive than Starlord going up against random fodder, because we all know fodder aim is crappy. And the fact that IM and WM weren't able to easily overpower Falcon in their brief exchanges is also worth noting.

Also, are you saying Falcon was going all out against IM, WM and Spiderman?

Wait, dodging one blast now constitutes as playing aerial tag with Vision? Okay then. And yet that "fodder" was hitting the Guardians ships once they got the kill order greenlight. You are basing your argument off your own generalisation. Not all fodder automatically shoot like Storm Troopers. Nobu's Hand ninjas are technically "fodder", yet it was shown time and time again that if Matt didn't dodge/catch/deflect their arrows that they would have found their mark.

What are these exchanges? Post all these physical scuffles they had if you are going to keep bringing them up. I can literally recall a single one that we don't even really see, where Falcon manages to break out of IM's grip via unknown means. Other than that and the instance of cheapshot kicking IM, I don't recall Falcon physically tussling with them. By all means, if I am wrong, post the clips of it happening.

Where did I say that? But, based on the weaponry he did use, he seemed to be going harder. And the big difference is Falcon going all out is a lot less dangerous to IM or WM than them going all out is to him. It's questionable whether anything in Falcon's arsenal could seriously harm IM or WM, whereas we know they have the firepower to straight up kill him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Wait, dodging one blast now constitutes as playing aerial tag with Vision? Okay then. And yet that "fodder" was hitting the Guardians ships once they got the kill order greenlight. You are basing your argument off your own generalisation. Not all fodder automatically shoot like Storm Troopers. Nobu's Hand ninjas are technically "fodder", yet it was shown time and time again that if Matt didn't dodge/catch/deflect their arrows that they would have found their mark.

What are these exchanges? Post all these physical scuffles they had if you are going to keep bringing them up. I can literally recall a single one that we don't even really see, where Falcon manages to break out of IM's grip via unknown means. Other than that and the instance of cheapshot kicking IM, I don't recall Falcon physically tussling with them. By all means, if I am wrong, post the clips of it happening.

Where did I say that? But, based on the weaponry he did use, he seemed to be going harder. And the big difference is Falcon going all out is a lot less dangerous to IM or WM than them going all out is to him. It's questionable whether anything in Falcon's arsenal could seriously harm IM or WM, whereas we know they have the firepower to straight up kill him.

You mean, hitting the guardian's ship that was a whole lot bigger than Starlord and not as maneuverable? Sure... that completely convinces me that they're crackshots.

Airport fight - Falcon tussles with WM in the background when they did their main team showdown. Goes up against him once more later and then goes against IM with Red Wing. Ignore his feat dodging Vision's blast, it was still a good maneuver. A maneuver that Starlord doesn't have anything quite as good.

In fact, I'm done playing defense. How bout you start posting feats of Starlord which makes you think he's just as agile in the air? I know GOTG2 vids aren't out yet but surely you can find something from the first movie that shows his flying skills. I posted a compilation vid of Falcon's feats, you could do me the same courtesy.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You mean, hitting the guardian's ship that was a whole lot bigger than Starlord and not as maneuverable? Sure... that completely convinces me that they're crackshots.

Whether they are uber shots is not the argument. You said they were crap just because they were fodder, when they were very clearly perfectly competent at it. And that's ignoring the sheer rate of fire they were putting out.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Airport fight - Falcon tussles with WM in the background when they did their main team showdown. Goes up against him once more later and then goes against IM with Red Wing. Ignore his feat dodging Vision's blast, it was still a good maneuver. A maneuver that Starlord doesn't have anything quite as good.

The main fight? They literally knocked into each other once and then took off flying. I don't recall them tussling a second time. At what point did they fight again, so I can go look for it on youtube? And he fired Redwing from his back, at range. That is not a physical scuffle.

Also, why would I ignore the Vision dodge? It was a good dodge, like I already said, but it wasn't like he was dogfighting him. Vision fired a distracted blast (he himself uses the word later) while cradling Wanda.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In fact, I'm done playing defense. How bout you start posting feats of Starlord which makes you think he's just as agile in the air? I know GOTG2 vids aren't out yet but surely you can find something from the first movie that shows his flying skills. I posted a compilation vid of Falcon's feats, you could do me the same courtesy.

He did not have the jetpack in the first film (just the boots), which he has for this fight (I mentioned it in the first few posts of the thread), so it would create a false impression of their comparative agility. I already pointed out his relevant feats for this match up, as have others.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Whether they are uber shots is not the argument. You said they were crap just because they were fodder, when they were very clearly perfectly competent at it. And that's ignoring the sheer rate of fire they were putting out.


There were hundreds of those little ships firing at the Guardians. The fact that the Guardian's ship (which is a lot lot bigger than Starlord himself) managed to survive that long is testament to how bad those Sovereign fighters aim.


Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

The main fight? They literally knocked into each other once and then took off flying. I don't recall them tussling a second time. At what point did they fight again, so I can go look for it on youtube? And he fired Redwing from his back, at range. That is not a physical scuffle.


A fight can be over in just a second or two, so don't disregard their feats just because it wasn't a long, drawn out fight. Falcon and WM smashed into each other, twirled around, then Falcon got away and flew. The fact that he was able to get away from WM and didn't get completely overpowered is already a good feat. After all, if a 10 yr old kid slammed into me and I wanted to hold on to him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to get away.

Next we see them, you're right that they weren't scuffling. WM was chasing around Falcon. So not a scuffle, but another testament to Falcon's flying ability that WM even with those powerful thrusters was unable to catch up. In fact since we don't really see them since they first clashed, we can assume that they've been chasing each other around all this time, with WM still unable to nullify Falcon.

Then Falcon kicks IM and sends him flying. Considering how tough that armor is, that's a pretty good feat. Next scene we see IM grappling with Falcon, with Falcon able to kick off and fly away. Again, considering how strong IM's suit is, the fact that Falcon can even escape from IM's clutches while in mid air is a testament to either his strength or aerial dexterity/agility.


Now sure, these aren't exactly incredibly great feats compared to what we see from other superheroes. But it's still better than what we have from Starlord, who's main aerial fight pretty much happened off screen too.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Also, why would I ignore the Vision dodge? It was a good dodge, like I already said, but it wasn't like he was dogfighting him. Vision fired a distracted blast (he himself uses the word later) while cradling Wanda.


then it's not a scuffle. It's still a good feat and that's why I'm including it here. And I don't recall Starlord displaying any sort of feat to match.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

He did not have the jetpack in the first film (just the boots), which he has for this fight (I mentioned it in the first few posts of the thread), so it would create a false impression of their comparative agility. I already pointed out his relevant feats for this match up, as have others.

So basically what you're saying is you only have that one scene in GoTG2 to base your entire argument on? Unfortunately, until we get a youtube clip in here then that scene is suspect because we all might be remembering it differently. For example, I remember most of that fight happening offscreen while Rocket explained bomb logic to Groot.

You should probably find other feats to back up your stance, especially considering that I'm using multiple feats for Falcon.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There were hundreds of those little ships firing at the Guardians. The fact that the Guardian's ship (which is a lot lot bigger than Starlord himself) managed to survive that long is testament to how bad those Sovereign fighters aim.


No, it's a testament to how tough the ship is, considering how many times it actually got hit.

Originally posted by FrothByte

A fight can be over in just a second or two, so don't disregard their feats just because it wasn't a long, drawn out fight. Falcon and WM smashed into each other, twirled around, then Falcon got away and flew. The fact that he was able to get away from WM and didn't get completely overpowered is already a good feat. After all, if a 10 yr old kid slammed into me and I wanted to hold on to him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to get away.

Proof that War Machine was actually trying to hold him? Also, their impact lasted barely a moment. If someone fumbles a thrown ball after running at it, it doesn't mean the ball has super evasion skills. It's certainly not an accurate representation of physical strength either. Or are you saying Winter Soldier's metal arm is significantly stronger than the entire WM armour, seeing as he managed to halt Sam with a grappling hook and yank him around without any issues in TWS.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Next we see them, you're right that they weren't scuffling. WM was chasing around Falcon. So not a scuffle, but another testament to Falcon's flying ability that WM even with those powerful thrusters was unable to catch up. In fact since we don't really see them since they first clashed, we can assume that they've been chasing each other around all this time, with WM still unable to nullify Falcon.

Then Falcon kicks IM and sends him flying. Considering how tough that armor is, that's a pretty good feat. Next scene we see IM grappling with Falcon, with Falcon able to kick off and fly away. Again, considering how strong IM's suit is, the fact that Falcon can even escape from IM's clutches while in mid air is a testament to either his strength or aerial dexterity/agility.

It was also shown that people like Wanda were tossing shit at WM and IM while they were flying about, so he was trying to chase down Falcon while dealing with other things as well.

Tony was hovering in the air when Falcon kicked him (you can see his boot repulsors were active when he goes flying offscreen), without providing any propulsion in resistance, which means all Falcon did was knock back something of Iron Man's mass that was not even paying attention to him, and had nothing to brace themselves against.

Also, I just watched that grapple scene between IM and Falcon in slowmo. For the brief second they show them, Falcon was the one with both arms on Tony (one to the arm and one to the chest), whereas Tony only had one hand holding Falcon's arm (with his other arm dangling free), so you can't even see who was trying to grab who. At best, you can say it took both Falcon's arms, a leg, and the thrust from his pack to break just Tony's grip strength on one hand. You tell me I'm using fights that happened mostly offscreen, yet you're using scenes so brief that we can't even accurately see what's happening in them, between Falcon and IM/WM.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Now sure, these aren't exactly incredibly great feats compared to what we see from other superheroes. But it's still better than what we have from Starlord, who's main aerial fight pretty much happened off screen too.


then it's not a scuffle. It's still a good feat and that's why I'm including it here. And I don't recall Starlord displaying any sort of feat to match.

I was discussing them from a physical scuffle standpoint, in terms of actual melee. Because Falcon has never actually bested anyone of note, even with his flight gear. He's only taken out human fodder. He didn't beat Ant-Man and he definitely did not beat either IM, WM or WS for that matter. Peter took out multiple Kree soldiers in volume 1, using a combination of firearms and H2H, during the showdown with Korath. Now, they were also featless, but being Kree already puts them above humans, in terms of physical stats.

I already pointed out that Star-lord dodged a very close range blast from Korath in the opening scene from the first film. The blast flew over him, right where his upper body had been before moving, making it very clear it would have struck if he hadn't dodged. Now, he did land on his back, but it was WAY closer than what Sam had to dodge in terms of Vision's blast. And he didn't even have any flight to aid him. In terms of pure reflexes/reactions, that's pretty impressive.

Originally posted by FrothByte

So basically what you're saying is you only have that one scene in GoTG2 to base your entire argument on? Unfortunately, until we get a youtube clip in here then that scene is suspect because we all might be remembering it differently. For example, I remember most of that fight happening offscreen while Rocket explained bomb logic to Groot.

You should probably find other feats to back up your stance, especially considering that I'm using multiple feats for Falcon.

No, the beginning fight with the Abilisk as well. After the baby Groot nonsense, they did show a chunk of that fight. And they show plenty of the end fight onscreen, even if it is not the main focus of the final act. I remember it. So do others.

You know he didn't have the jetpack in volume 1, so you know you can't get an accurate representation of his flight using only feats from that film. Why would I provide aerial feats that show lesser capability than he has for this fight? If you aren't going to acknowledge his GotG vol. 2 feats on the premise that people might be remembering it differently, then there is no point in continuing this until the clips become available, because he only gets all the relevant flight gear in that film.

Decided to give this a bump, seeing as both got more feats in IW. And can I please ask that people don't just come with Star-Lord > Spiderman > Falcon ABC logic? I know Falcon got pinned by Spiderman in CW, who in turn got taken hostage by Quill in Infinity War, but different situations etc.

Starlord hit Iron Man with some gravity/magnetism device that almost disabled him during their shortlived skirmish, I don't think Falcon could escape from it as IM did.

I feel like, after IW, Sam is more dangerous at long range, and Peter more dangerous closeup. Magnet trap, energy bola etc. don't have the same range as Falcon's missiles, for example, but they are way more useful if things get up close and personal. Shooting explosives at someone only a few feet away is generally a very bad idea.

Starlord wins.