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Fight takes place in the Wampa cave (Wampa is not present.) Who prevails?

Lucas.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Lucas.

Wise choice, but let's give the other "debaters" here a chance to dissent. I would be very fascinated to hear what a few particular members of this board have to say in the matter.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Lucas.

Luke, obviously.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Luke, obviously.

Here's the opinion we have all been waiting for. Why is this so "obvious"? Do you believe Lucas Skywalker could defeat someone like Mace Windu?

Originally posted by Big Gerald
Do you believe Lucas Skywalker could defeat someone like Mace Windu?

Yep.

wampa comes in and wrecks all

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yep.

Interesting. Very interesting. Do you think he could defeat ROTS Anakin? Nyax? Yoda?

Yes.

Not sure.

No.

In canon it's definitely arguable at least for the first two, you'd be hard pressed to argue against yoda though

Well given the spanking Palpatine gave him, he'd obviously be no match for Yoda at that point. Not in a straight up fight anyway.

Well in fairness, rotj palp did have a decade plus to grow, and luke was a newbie to the idea of tutaminis and didn't have a lightsaber to block the lightning.

But Yoda's holding a living mountain in place while massively hindered is the most powerful force user all time up until Sidious, and is as of rots virtually tied with the best duelist and force user in galactic history.

ROTJ Luke is still losing

edit: In canon, luke never actually used tutaminis

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes.

Not sure.

No.

My friend, I cannot agree with this line of thought. Anakin Skywalker in ROTS was the same age as Luke, but with much more training. I very much doubt Luke could defeat his father then. Why do you feel this way, my friend?

Luke > Vader > Anakin.

Anakin > Vader.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Luke > Vader > Anakin.

Vader's absolutely inferior to Anakin in pre-Disney Canon or Legends. It's possible he's better in the new Canon (time will tell), but I'd wager he isn't, since the core theme of Vader is that he lost everything - not "lost everything (besides his Force power (which really made him unique in the first place) - despite now being more machine and, as a result, would have a weakened connection to the Force)."

Vader > Anakin in both Legends and Canon by his own admission. Denial of reality won't change facts.

Vader isn't> Anakin in legends. The ANH quote would only be referring to Mustafar anakin.

And? Characters are not immune to bias, even toward past incarnations of themselves. Something we can consistently track across all of the Sith in the Star Wars Canon is their belief that the dark-side is unequivocally stronger than the light-side. And now let's take Anakin Skywalker, who's power and abilities were blatantly suppressed and restricted by both his own emotions and the Jedi teachings. It makes perfect sense that Darth Vader is going to regard his new self, who is free from any restriction, along with now using a version of the Force that Palpatine touts as infinitely more powerful than the light-side, as more powerful. He's finally raw and free - which Lords of the Sith states, I believe. However, the truth of the matter is that Darth Vader is in denial - just as Dooku was when he claimed the dark-side has made him the most powerful Jedi. George Lucas has gone out of his way to clarify that Darth Vader is a "pathetic character" who's power was vastly hindered by the Mustafar experience. He's also likened Darth Vader's power to that of Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus (of course noting that Anakin Skywalker defeats the latter in battle). Contrast that with Anakin Skywalker, who George Lucas ranks as a combatant on par with Yoda and Darth Sidious, and who's been stated by those who work closely with George Lucas, and thus are obviously reflecting his views, to be the most powerful Jedi in history as of Episode III.

If you want my opinion, I think you are so stubborn on this issue because you think conceding would be embarrassing. But if you think logically about it: George Lucas has stated and shown that the tragedy of Darth Vader is that Anakin Skywalker once had so much and then lost everything. It does not follow that Darth Vader manages to retain his power - especially considering he's more of a machine and thus his abilities are greatly reduced. Again, refer back to what George Lucas said when preparing to Episode I... that Darth Vader was a "half-man, half-robot" and ultimately a shadow compared to what we are seeing in the "golden age of the Jedi" of the prequel trilogy. Arguing that Darth Vader to be more powerful than himself in his flesh prime is a disservice to the story that George Lucas was trying to tell.

Even in Canon I don't see OT Vader > ROTS Anakin.

Might be on a similar level though. But if that's the case, then Vader's loss to ROTJ Luke can definitely be put down to Vader being conflicted and massively holding back with his TK.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Even in Canon I don't see OT Vader > ROTS Anakin.

Might be on a similar level though. But if that's the case, then Vader's loss to ROTJ Luke can definitely be put down to Vader being conflicted and massively holding back with his TK.
RotJ Luke could also be > RotS Anakin for all we know, though.

^ Unlikely.


Anakin had the greater potential, and Luke had just completed his training.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And? Characters are not immune to bias, even toward past incarnations of themselves. Something we can consistently track across all of the Sith in the Star Wars Canon is their belief that the dark-side is unequivocally stronger than the light-side. And now let's take Anakin Skywalker, who's power and abilities were blatantly suppressed and restricted by both his own emotions and the Jedi teachings. It makes perfect sense that Darth Vader is going to regard his new self, who is free from any restriction, along with now using a version of the Force that Palpatine touts as infinitely more powerful than the light-side, as more powerful. He's finally raw and free - which Lords of the Sith states, I believe. However, the truth of the matter is that Darth Vader is in denial - just as Dooku was when he claimed the dark-side has made him the most powerful Jedi. George Lucas has gone out of his way to clarify that Darth Vader is a "pathetic character" who's power was vastly hindered by the Mustafar experience. He's also likened Darth Vader's power to that of Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus (of course noting that Anakin Skywalker defeats the latter in battle). Contrast that with Anakin Skywalker, who George Lucas ranks as a combatant on par with Yoda and Darth Sidious, and who's been stated by those who work closely with George Lucas, and thus are obviously reflecting his views, to be the most powerful Jedi in history as of Episode III.

If you want my opinion, I think you are so stubborn on this issue because you think conceding would be embarrassing. But if you think logically about it: George Lucas has stated and shown that the tragedy of Darth Vader is that Anakin Skywalker once had so much and then lost everything. It does not follow that Darth Vader manages to retain his power - especially considering he's more of a machine and thus his abilities are greatly reduced. Again, refer back to what George Lucas said when preparing to Episode I... that Darth Vader was a "half-man, half-robot" and ultimately a shadow compared to what we are seeing in the "golden age of the Jedi" of the prequel trilogy. Arguing that Darth Vader to be more powerful than himself in his flesh prime is a disservice to the story that George Lucas was trying to tell.

I honestly didn't even bother to read this. A character's self admission > then your opinion.

You're a retard.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I honestly didn't even bother to read this. A character's self admission > then your opinion.
objective statements of authority>user opinions. Aside from when they don't suit your arguments

Originally posted by Sinious
You're a retard.

no u.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
objective statements of authority>user opinions. Aside from when they don't suit your arguments

Good thing there's no objective statements placing Anakin above RotJ Vader...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Unlikely.


Anakin had the greater potential, and Luke had just completed his training.
True, but a few sources, an Insider issue in addition to the RotJ comic adaptation among them, both credit Luke's victory to his extraordinarily fast learning rate, I believe. RotJ Luke might very well be better than RotJ Vader and, arguably, RotS Anakin. What is for sure is that more analysis is needed determine the correct order (if such one exist) of the three.

Lucas.

Originally posted by toplel
True, but a few sources, an Insider issue in addition to the RotJ comic adaptation among them, both credit Luke's victory to his extraordinarily fast learning rate, I believe. RotJ Luke might very well be better than RotJ Vader and, arguably, RotS Anakin. What is for sure is that more analysis is needed determine the correct order (if such one exist) of the three.


Well he legitimately beat a conflicted Vader in Sabers. That's a far cry from being above Peak non-conflicted Vader in an all out.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well he legitimately beat a conflicted Vader in Sabers. That's a far cry from being above Peak non-conflicted Vader in an all out.
I'm unsure as to what the difference would be?

Originally posted by toplel
I'm unsure as to what the difference would be?


You just have to note the difference between conflicted Mustafar Anakin who lost to Kenobi, and Confident "decides to win" Anakin who trounced Dooku, after he had just taken out Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You just have to note the difference between conflicted Mustafar Anakin who lost to Kenobi, and Confident "decides to win" Anakin who trounced Dooku, after he had just taken out Kenobi.
We're talking about Vader, not Anakin, right? You're saying that Luke beating Vader in RotJ isn't comparable to beating a more clearheaded Vader, and to support your claim, you use examples of Anakin. How does it make sense to refer to Vader and Anakin synonymously when, really, what we're trying to conclude are the differences between the to?

Originally posted by toplel
We're talking about Vader, not Anakin, right? You're saying that Luke beating Vader in RotJ isn't comparable to beating a more clearheaded Vader, and to support your claim, you use examples of Anakin. How does it make sense to refer to Vader and Anakin synonymously when, really, what we're trying to conclude are the differences between the to?


It was an example of how a conflicted mindset hinders performance. I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It was an example of how a conflicted mindset hinders performance. I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend.
Surely Luke would be conflicted too?

So what I'm hearing is Benjamin Kenobi solos.

Originally posted by toplel
Surely Luke would be conflicted too?


Difference is Luke knew exactly what he wanted- to redeem his Father.

Vader was conflicted between his own dark side and light side. Much like Mustafar Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Difference is Luke knew exactly what he wanted- to redeem his Father.

Vader was conflicted between his own dark side and light side. Much like Mustafar Anakin.
Although Vader wanted to turn Luke to the dark side, he was perfectly willing to kill Luke, as his thoughts in the RotJ book describe. On the other hand, according to yourself, Luke never wanted to kill Vader. Both were conflicted to a certain extent.

Anakin against Obi-Wan is incomparable. Anakin was unable to even sense Kenobi's presence aboard Padme's ship, despite them being almost brothers and having sparred thousands of times. We know that Bane and Zannah could sense each other planets away, and Anakin is more powerful than both of them. Vader was never portrayed that vulnerable, and he was fighting someone whose intention was not to kill him. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, went after Anakin to kill him.

Luke.

Lukas*

Originally posted by toplel
Although Vader wanted to turn Luke to the dark side, he was perfectly willing to kill Luke, as his thoughts in the RotJ book describe. On the other hand, according to yourself, Luke never wanted to kill Vader. Both were conflicted to a certain extent.


It was Vader being Willing to kill Luke which was causing his conflict, and bringing out his Light Side.

He claimed to himself he was willing to kill Luke, but we saw when it came down to that he wouldn't let that happen.

Lightsiders are not conflicted when they don't want to kill.

Heck Ben Kenobi didn't even want to fight Maul, yet stomped him when Maul attacked, being described as all "Zen".


Originally posted by toplel
Anakin against Obi-Wan is incomparable.

You're right, because if anything Vader was more conflicted about killing Luke. Whereas Anakin went all out trying to kill Kenobi.

Luke only ever had an advtg vs vader when drawing on the dark side right at the start and at the end of the fight. Otherwise its noted Bader was only "tolerating him"

Vader is >>ROTS Anakin. Anakin was much weaker than Vader. Vader mastered all seven lightsaber forms AND created his own. Anakin isnt capable of bringing down an AT-AT with no effort. Nor would he be close to Luke.

Originally posted by GMLukeSWEB
Vader is >>ROTS Anakin. Anakin was much weaker than Vader. Vader mastered all seven lightsaber forms AND created his own. Anakin isnt capable of bringing down an AT-AT with no effort. Nor would he be close to Luke.

Agreed. At that point Lucas is only second to Palpatine and Yoda in the mythos. Stupid thread.

Originally posted by GMLukeSWEB
Vader is >>ROTS Anakin. Anakin was much weaker than Vader. Vader mastered all seven lightsaber forms AND created his own. Anakin isnt capable of bringing down an AT-AT with no effort. Nor would he be close to Luke.