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ROTS Windu and ROTS Kenobi
Vs
Shimrra and Tsavong
All out

Unless this is Vaapad amped Mace, Shimrra solos.

Originally posted by MythLord
Unless this is Vaapad amped Mace, Shimrra solos.

Can somebody please tell me who the characters in team two are?

Jedi win.

Shimrra is pretty overrated and Tsavong Lah struggles to kill and ultimately dies to a way pre-prime Jaina, prime Jaina being below either member of team 1.

Prime Jaina > Caedus > DL:RoDV Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.

Prime Jaina ain't > Caedus. :/

Kar Vastor isn't > RotS Mace, either.

It's stated to be exactly that.

It's stated that Windu couldn't beat Vastor on his best day in Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Prime Jaina > Caedus > DL:RoDV Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu. https://d15mj6e6qmt1na.cloudfront.net/files/images/0256/2931/Deep_end_logo.png

Well actually, Caedus > ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > TFUII Vader > TFU Vader > DL:RoDV Vader >> Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.

But that's just cruel.

I see it was a fool's hope to think AP would get less retarded over time.

Prime Jaina is holistically portrayed as, and has more than one statement putting her as a Luke level combatants during Lotf and hence is a Luke level combatant. Jaina's>Caedus, use of irrelevant incarnations of characters and appeals to incredulity aside

And yea Vastor being> a pre-prime mace isn't relevant either

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I see it was a fool's hope to think AP would get less retarded over time.

Sorry for not drinking the Mace cool aid, I know full well that anybody who doesn't share your moronic points of view are retarded in your limited perspective. Bar Vaapad he shares questionable parity with Dooku, except for when he's struggling to push back pre-prime Ventress.

But yes Shatterpoint and Rise of Darth Vader did a pretty horrific number on Windu's Legends standing against Vader tier combatants.

Originally posted by Trocity
Jedi win.

Shimrra is pretty overrated and Tsavong Lah struggles to kill and ultimately dies to a way pre-prime Jaina, prime Jaina being below either member of team 1.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's stated to be exactly that.

No.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's stated that Windu couldn't beat Vastor on his best day in Shatterpoint.

From Windu's own perspective, yeah. Given his actual performance against Vastor was admirable, despite him being pre-prime and inflicted with loads of circumstances, there's no doubt Mace by RotS would beat him.

The Jedi win. Mace may be able to solo the Vong. Shimrra was fighting Luke at an extreme advantage and still lost easily.

Shimrra was holding an advantage in his fight and left Luke barely standing at the end of it. Shimrra's only advantage was Luke was somewhat fatigued and that Onimi was constantly shifting the Temple around, but that impacted Shimrra a bit as well.

The Vong win.

@AP What has your scaling to do with this fight?

shimarra wrecks

Originally posted by MythLord
No.

She has a massive increase of combative prowess in the following novels. So yeah, going from sub-High Council tier -at her own admission no less- to equal in combat to anybody in the Jedi Order, kinda significant.

Originally posted by MythLord
From Windu's own perspective, yeah. Given his actual performance against Vastor was admirable, despite him being pre-prime and inflicted with loads of circumstances, there's no doubt Mace by RotS would beat him.

It's a mix of his perspective and the actual narrator, sure, doesn't render it moot at all. Nor does his performance actually contradict this, he basically outsmarted him and managed to survive losing.

The circumstances you point out are rendered irrelevant by the fact that it outright states, lightsaber or no, he'd lose in a straight combat.

Not that it matters, Vastor not even standing a chance against Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She has a massive increase of combative prowess in the following novels. So yeah, going from sub-High Council tier -at her own admission no less- to equal in combat to anybody in the Jedi Order, kinda significant.

What she admits is irrelevant, given her feats and hype at the time are > most of the Council, unless you'd have me think Cilghal is >/~ Jaina, which is moronic.

Regardless, the "kinda significant" power-growth would, at best, make her Jacen's equal, hardly his superior.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's a mix of his perspective and the actual narrator, sure, doesn't render it moot at all. Nor does his performance actually contradict this, he basically outsmarted him and managed to survive losing.

His performance does indeed contradict this. If Mace on his best day, i.e. RotS Mace, couldn't hope to beat Vastor, then Mace so considerably pre prime and under such circumstances would've gotten two-shotted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The circumstances you point out are rendered irrelevant by the fact that it outright states, lightsaber or no, he'd lose in a straight combat.

You put too much stock into subjective character opinions. Mace's opinion is hardly infallible.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not that it matters, Vastor not even standing a chance against Vader.

Yet he contended with someone on approaching Vader's level in the form of Luke...

There's nothing that restricts Jaina to being below or at Caedus level as of fotj as there's nothing that restricts Kenobi to being below maul as of rots as their's nothing that restricts the outlander to being sub arcann as of kotfe as there's nothing that restricts mace to being below or equal to dooku or kar vastor as of rots.

Jaina is indicated to be luke level by both luke and herself, is shown to be luke-level in their performances against the same oppoenents, and is holistically potrayed as luke level as of her prime.

FOT Jaina's Luke level, Caedus isn't. FOTJ Jaina>Caedus

Bringing up pre-prime versions of a character isn't relevant. There's nothing at all stopping Jaina from undergoing massive growth in the years between.
Jaina faced a massive mace vs sids esque and Kenobi vs Anakin esque emotional confrontation in facing her brother, and faced numerous confrontations throughout fotj up until her prime in ascension where she's been consistently shown as a luke level combatant, placing her well above caedus who luke has beat in about three moves while hindered

She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.
Luke said it, Jaina said it. The former having in depth knowledge of and having fought alongside her, the latter isn't potrayed to be cocky and has nothing rendering her word unreliable. (And no, Luke's statement regarding Caedus being matched *to* him isn't the same thing). What indication as of FOTJ of Luke still outclassing her overrides either?


Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Quote for them being able to fight as fast as luke?Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.
Quote for caedus having more potential? Because I recall luke and Leia, also identical twins being stated to have identical potential and I also recall them Jacen and Jaina fighting as exact equals in their youth for an extensive period of time.

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.
Luke said it, Jaina said it. The former having in depth knowledge of and having fought alongside her, the latter isn't potrayed to be cocky and has nothing rendering her word unreliable. (And no, Luke's statement regarding Caedus being matched *to* him isn't the same thing). What indication as of FOTJ of Luke still outclassing her overrides either?



Quote for them being able to fight as fast as luke

Quote for caedus having more potential? Because I recall luke and Leia, also identical twins being stated to have identical potential and I also recall them Jacen and Jaina fighting as exact equals in their youth for an extensive period of time.

edit: how the heck do you use quick quotes? wtf is this site so damn hard to post crap in

Originally posted by Trocity
Jedi win.

Shimrra is pretty overrated and Tsavong Lah struggles to kill and ultimately dies to a way pre-prime Jaina, prime Jaina being below either member of team 1.