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Gross as of Season 3 with his Armor
Vibraniun Ultron/Wanda as of Civil War
Reverse Flash is composite with LOT/Flash feats

Who wins

I don't see what either of team one could do to Ultron.

lol what? you dont see what reverse flash could do to Ultron?? How about phase through him, or put him in the speed force? or one of many attacks hat he's capable of that ultra wouldn't even be able to see coming

Originally posted by relentless1
lol what? you dont see what reverse flash could do to Ultron?? How about phase through him, or put him in the speed force? or one of many attacks hat he's capable of that ultra wouldn't even be able to see coming

By all means, post feats of RF damaging something as durable as Ultron with phasing, or Speed Force dumping someone in the middle of a fight. Speedsters need to run for several seconds (often in a circle) to even open up a breach. And what other "many" attacks does he have that would damage Ultron?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
By all means, post feats of RF damaging something as durable as Ultron with phasing, or Speed Force dumping someone in the middle of a fight. Speedsters need to run for several seconds (often in a circle) to even open up a breach. And what other "many" attacks does he have that would damage Ultron?

RF is a DC character and Ultron is Marvel, thus you have triggered relentless1's fanboy mode.

Honestly Vibranium can absorb and in the MCU redirect kinetic energy; so it stands to reason that you shouldn't be able to vibrate through it. It would be like trying to swim in at best (for RF) really thick Jello...

Grodd or RF destroy the twins though easily, unless Witch goes Visionbuster on Grodd but it kinda looked like that might have a wind up to it.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Honestly Vibranium can absorb and in the MCU redirect kinetic energy; so it stands to reason that you shouldn't be able to vibrate through it. It would be like trying to swim in at best (for RF) really thick Jello...

That is a good point, actually. As per Howard Stark (in CA:TFA) vibranium is "completely vibration absorbent".

Couldn't Grodd telepathically control Wanda or Thawne could stall out Ultron into a stalemate?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
By all means, post feats of RF damaging something as durable as Ultron with phasing, or Speed Force dumping someone in the middle of a fight. Speedsters need to run for several seconds (often in a circle) to even open up a breach. And what other "many" attacks does he have that would damage Ultron?

it stands to reason that he can use that lightning capture/throw ability that Barry does since Thawne taught him the manoeuvre in the first place, and we know Ultron Prime is vulnerable to just such an attack as thats what crippled his body (Thors Lightining, Repulor Beam, Vision beam).

Also him building up speed is irrelevant because it takes him a millisecond to do so,; Ultron isn't catching him running to and fro as he builds up said speed is he??

As for phasing feats, its logical to assume that Thawne, being stronger and more experienced than Barry would reasonably be able to replicate feats; also the OP states that its a composite with Flash feats so that being said Barrys train phase was quite impressive, being able to phase a multi ton train moving at high speeds for enough time as it takes for that train to pass through the rubble on the tracks is a pretty decent feat to suggest he could likely do it to Ultron

Originally posted by relentless1
it stands to reason that he can use that lightning capture/throw ability that Barry does since Thawne taught him the manoeuvre in the first place, and we know Ultron Prime is vulnerable to just such an attack as thats what crippled his body (Thors Lightining, Repulor Beam, Vision beam).

Also him building up speed is irrelevant because it takes him a millisecond to do so,; Ultron isn't catching him running to and fro as he builds up said speed is he??

As for phasing feats, its logical to assume that Thawne, being stronger and more experienced than Barry would reasonably be able to replicate feats; also the OP states that its a composite with Flash feats so that being said Barrys train phase was quite impressive, being able to phase a multi ton train moving at high speeds for enough time as it takes for that train to pass through the rubble on the tracks is a pretty decent feat to suggest he could likely do it to Ultron

You're comparing Barry's bolt toss to Thor's lightning? Barry's doesn't even kill normal people. Thor's lightning destroys planet crusts and giant technorganic space dragons. They are on two very different levels. And even when Thor's lightning did damage Ultron, it was after a massive battle that he was finally worn down. And even then he was still alive. So that will do nothing.

They have to literally run in a circle to open the portal. And then they have to get you inside it. Ultron is stronger than any speedster, so he's not forcing him in. And that's even if Ultron and Wanda just stand there the whole time.

Thawne is not stronger than Barry. Barry surpassed him a while back. Although his composite feats are somehwat decent, like summoning a ton of clones. However they were so incompetent they gave Vixen like 10 minutes to use the Spear of Destiny and fix everything while they were just running around.



In all honesty Wanda probably mindf*cks both of them as she has greater feats of manipulation than Grodd. And the Flashes are not immune to telepathy and mind control.

Also she can keep Grodd in check with her TK.

Originally posted by relentless1
it stands to reason that he can use that lightning capture/throw ability that Barry does since Thawne taught him the manoeuvre in the first place, and we know Ultron Prime is vulnerable to just such an attack as thats what crippled his body (Thors Lightining, Repulor Beam, Vision beam).

Wrong. Zoom taught him that in S2, while pretending to be Jay. Thawne has never thrown lightning onscreen. And Thor's lightning alone >>> any Speedster lightning bolts, and that's without factoring in Vision and Iron Man.

Originally posted by relentless1
Also him building up speed is irrelevant because it takes him a millisecond to do so,; Ultron isn't catching him running to and fro as he builds up said speed is he??

Wrong again. We visibly see that it takes several seconds of running to open those rifts. If it was as easy as you are trying to make it sound, Thawne would have done it before, which he hasn't.

Thawne has been tagged by non-Speedsters before while not focusing on them, such as Firestorm and Green Arrow. He also got tagged during the LoT finale by both Atom and Steel. So, he is not untouchable.

Originally posted by relentless1
As for phasing feats, its logical to assume that Thawne, being stronger and more experienced than Barry would reasonably be able to replicate feats; also the OP states that its a composite with Flash feats so that being said Barrys train phase was quite impressive, being able to phase a multi ton train moving at high speeds for enough time as it takes for that train to pass through the rubble on the tracks is a pretty decent feat to suggest he could likely do it to Ultron

Thawne has been bested by Barry multiple times since the end of S1. So, as things stand, Barry is more powerful. Thawne does not get Barry's feats. Composite means he gets all his own feats from both shows.

And nothing any Speedster has damaged via phase-attack was A. as durable as Ultron, or B. partially composed of a material that actually absorbs vibrations (which is how Speedsters phase). So, there is zero concrete evidence that a phase attack would work. For all we know, Thawne might end up mangling his hand instead.

I.E. you are reaching pretty hard right now.

Phasing through people also takes time. It's not something they use in combat as it seems to take too much focus.

Originally posted by KingD19
Thawne is not stronger than Barry. Barry surpassed him a while back. Although his composite feats are somehwat decent, like summoning a ton of clones. However they were so incompetent they gave Vixen like 10 minutes to use the Spear of Destiny and fix everything while they were just running around.

Not only were his time remnants kind of useless, it wasn't a quick thing gathering them. It took him like half an episode to get all of them.

RF could phase through Ultron and destroy some internal circuitry. Grodd could mind control SW to destroy Ultron from the inside.

Grodd could control QS.

Originally posted by h1a8
RF could phase through Ultron and destroy some internal circuitry. Grodd could mind control SW to destroy Ultron from the inside.

Grodd could control QS.

How does he vibrate through Vibranium which absorbs Vibrations? Also stop trying to lie. We all know speedsters can't just phase in the middle of a fight. The fight has to be over, and they have to be holding their "victim" very close so they can speed up their hand to push it through their chest. That is the only way they've ever phased anyone.

How does Grodd mind control SW who has better mind control feats than him? As well as massively powerful TK?

Grodd won't even have time to focus on Pietro. He'll have his hands more than full with Wanda.

Originally posted by h1a8
RF could phase through Ultron and destroy some internal circuitry. Grodd could mind control SW to destroy Ultron from the inside.

Grodd could control QS.

You really need to watch the movies, it'll save you from making retarded arguments.

Originally posted by KingD19
How does he vibrate through Vibranium which absorbs Vibrations? Also stop trying to lie. We all know speedsters can't just phase in the middle of a fight. The fight has to be over, and they have to be holding their "victim" very close so they can speed up their hand to push it through their chest. That is the only way they've ever phased anyone.

How does Grodd mind control SW who has better mind control feats than him? As well as massively powerful TK?

Grodd won't even have time to focus on Pietro. He'll have his hands more than full with Wanda.

The term "Vibrate" through has nothing to do with the actual mechanism. RF is basically phasing, becoming intangible.

It absorbs KE to an extent (not unlimited). Like Kevlar does.

SW has no feats of mind control or resisting mind control.

Originally posted by h1a8
The term "Vibrate" through has nothing to do with the actual mechanism. RF is basically phasing, becoming intangible.

It absorbs KE to an extent (not unlimited). Like Kevlar does.

SW has no feats of mind control or resisting mind control.

LOL!!! your arguments just keep getting dumber. I'll say it again, you really need to watch the movies and TV shows.

Originally posted by Silent Master
LOL!!! your arguments just keep getting dumber. I'll say it again, you really need to watch the movies and TV shows.

Originally posted by h1a8


You're not very smart, are you?

Originally posted by h1a8
The term "Vibrate" through has nothing to do with the actual mechanism. RF is basically phasing, becoming intangible.

It absorbs KE to an extent (not unlimited). Like Kevlar does.

SW has no feats of mind control or resisting mind control.

So do you even watch Flash? Like at all?

Because they state multiple times that Flashes phase by vibrating their molecules really fast so they can slip through solid matter. We even see them start to violently shake when they phase. How is that not clear to you?

Okay so you never watched Civil War? She made almost the entire country of Sokovia evacuate by manipulating them to leave their homes and go to the life boat ships. Does Grodd have feats of resisting mind control? He only has weaker showings of it.

And so far it took faaaaaar more energy than Thawne can put out to even damage Ultron's final form.

Originally posted by KingD19
So do you even watch Flash? Like at all?

Because they state multiple times that Flashes phase by vibrating their molecules really fast so they can slip through solid matter. We even see them start to violently shake when they phase. How is that not clear to you?

Okay so you never watched Civil War? She made almost the entire country of Sokovia evacuate by manipulating them to leave their homes and go to the life boat ships. Does Grodd have feats of resisting mind control? He only has weaker showings of it.

And so far it took faaaaaar more energy than Thawne can put out to even damage Ultron's final form. That's what phasing is!

Vibranium cant prevent molecules from slipping through.
I don't remember her doing that. Can you post the scene?
Ultron' internals are very easy to damage. Also prove that Ultron succeeded in making his outside vibranium.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's what phasing is!

Vibranium cant prevent molecules from slipping through.
I don't remember her doing that. Can you post the scene?
Ultron' internals are very easy to damage. Also prove that Ultron succeeded in making his outside vibranium.

We're on the same page then? Phasing is vibrating so fast you can pass through solid, unvibrating matter.

So, if he's vibrating and the metal absorbs the vibrations...nothing happens. Can't phase if you're not vibrating.

Ultron's internals are not easy to damage. His innards weren't even exposed or damaged until a rage filled Scarlet Witch ripped his "heart" out. That doesn't matter though as Thawne would have to phase through him first and Vibranium's very nature makes that impossible.

1VOhpeugDGI
Skip to 1:17

Originally posted by KingD19
We're on the same page then? Phasing is vibrating so fast you can pass through solid, unvibrating matter.

So, if he's vibrating and the metal absorbs the vibrations...nothing happens. Can't phase if you're not vibrating.

Ultron's internals are not easy to damage. His innards weren't even exposed or damaged until a rage filled Scarlet Witch ripped his "heart" out. That doesn't matter though as Thawne would have to phase through him first and Vibranium's very nature makes that impossible.

1VOhpeugDGI
Skip to 1:17

That's if an object comes in contact with vibranium. Did you know that matter is more nothingness than something? There are vast distances between molecules (almost like outer space). How can something absorb something that is walking past it? You are creating a no limit fallacy. You are assuming that since it can dampen some degree of vibration through direct contact then it can automatically stop a vibrating molecule from walking through vast open space between its molecules. That's a huge jump in logic.

Ok I got you with the SW feat. But it seemed she possibly worked on one family at a time. But that's irrelevant since She used her energy to manipulate their minds. This is TK and not TP.

And you haven't proven that Ultron's final form was made of vibranium.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's if an object comes in contact with vibranium. Did you know that matter is more nothingness than something? There are vast distances between molecules (almost like outer space). How can something absorb something that is walking past it? You are creating a no limit fallacy. You are assuming that since it can dampen some degree of vibration through direct contact then it can automatically stop a vibrating molecule from walking through vast open space between its molecules. That's a huge jump in logic.

Ok I got you with the SW feat. But it seemed she worked on one person or family at a time. She used her energy to manipulate their minds. This is TK and not TP.

And you haven't proven that Ultron's final form was made of vibranium.

Okay, the hand, even if it is phasing, is still generating massive amounts of vibrations. Once the vibrations are absorbed, the hand stops phasing. Panther in a suit of the stuff didn't even budge when he got shot in the chest and face by a 50. machine gun. There's far more chance of vibranium stopping the vibrations(as that's it's stated purpose) than not.

Telekinesis is when you move things with your mind. Like when she caught the tower or threw Panther away from Bucky. The SOkovians were very visibly being mind controlled to leave. Her energy is just red. She did the same thing to the Avengers when she controlled them and put the visions in their head. Or did you forget that part too? Hawkeye even directly says, "I tried the mind control thing before. Not a fan."

His final form wasn't perfect like Vision, but he said he had enough Vibranium to create a new body(his final one) and used the rest to strengthen the core of the Sokovia bomb.


So you just didn't watch the movie at all huh? It's impossible to forget everything of importance all the time like you do.

Originally posted by KingD19
Okay, the hand, even if it is phasing, is still generating massive amounts of vibrations. Once the vibrations are absorbed, the hand stops phasing. Panther in a suit of the stuff didn't even budge when he got shot in the chest and face by a 50. machine gun. There's far more chance of vibranium stopping the vibrations(as that's it's stated purpose) than not.

Telekinesis is when you move things with your mind. Like when she caught the tower or threw Panther away from Bucky. The SOkovians were very visibly being mind controlled to leave. Her energy is just red. She did the same thing to the Avengers when she controlled them and put the visions in their head. Or did you forget that part too? Hawkeye even directly says, "I tried the mind control thing before. Not a fan."

His final form wasn't perfect like Vision, but he said he had enough Vibranium to create a new body(his final one) and used the rest to strengthen the core of the Sokovia bomb.


So you just didn't watch the movie at all huh? It's impossible to forget everything of importance all the time like you do.

Why ignore my argument. I explicitly explained vibranium can dampen things on direct contact. Walking through vast open space isn't the same.

It's like the Earth and moon are made of vibranium. Yet I can send a shaking (vibrating) ship between them.
The Earth and moon would not absorb anything since no contact is being made to them.
I don't recall him using any vibranium to make his final form. Vision was supposed to be his vibranium self.

h1 arguing that an object that absorbs vibrations won't have an effect on an tactic that relies on vibrations is just further proof that he's not very smart.

Originally posted by Silent Master
h1 arguing that an object that absorbs vibrations won't have an effect on an tactic that relies on vibrations is just further proof that he's not very smart. That just proves that you have 0 reading comprehension. The walking between vast space just went over your head I guess.

Originally posted by h1a8
That just proves that you have 0 reading comprehension. The walking between vast space just went over your head I guess.

What it proves is that you're not very smart.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why ignore my argument. I explicitly explained vibranium can dampen things on direct contact. Walking through vast open space isn't the same.

It's like the Earth and moon are made of vibranium. Yet I can send a shaking (vibrating) ship between them.
The Earth and moon would not absorb anything since no contact is being made to them.
I don't recall him using any vibranium to make his final form. Vision was supposed to be his vibranium self.

Because you ignore arguments all the time. In this case though, I'm ignoring it because it's simply wrong.

I get what you're saying, I get every bit of it. But the problem is that you're under the assumption that already phasing means the Flash is immune and Vibranium won't work. Vibranium however absorbs all kinetic energy directed against it. And all speedster phasing is is a lot of kinetic energy being given off so they can vibrate fast enough to phase. Soooo since they have to vibrate(i.e. give off Kinetic Enerrgy) to phase, and Vibranium absorbs Kinetic Energy, best case scenario Thawne's hand just stops vibrating. Worse case he gets mangled.

On the topic of phasing though, Shadowcat and Vision could phase him just fine as they've A)both used phasing in combat, and B)don't vibrate to phase.

He directly stated he'd use the rest for another body and the bomb core. Go watch the movie, I'm not going to go find a 2 minute talking snippet out of that whole thing because you're lazy.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What it proves is that you're not very smart.

You think we would've learned by now hahahah.

Originally posted by KingD19
Because you ignore arguments all the time. In this case though, I'm ignoring it because it's simply wrong.

I get what you're saying, I get every bit of it. But the problem is that you're under the assumption that already phasing means the Flash is immune and Vibranium won't work. Vibranium however absorbs all kinetic energy directed against it. And all speedster phasing is is a lot of kinetic energy being given off so they can vibrate fast enough to phase. Soooo since they have to vibrate(i.e. give off Kinetic Enerrgy) to phase, and Vibranium absorbs Kinetic Energy, best case scenario Thawne's hand just stops vibrating. Worse case he gets mangled.

On the topic of phasing though, Shadowcat and Vision could phase him just fine as they've A)both used phasing in combat, and B)don't vibrate to phase.

He directly stated he'd use the rest for another body and the bomb core. Go watch the movie, I'm not going to go find a 2 minute talking snippet out of that whole thing because you're lazy.

There is no such thing as "give off kinetic energy". Kinetic energy is not energy like "light". It is energy in the form of "motion of a body".

Kinetic energy can be efficiently transferred (over 90% of it) to another object through a collision (with help of the law of conservation of momentum).

How can vibranium absorb something it doesn't come in contact with? There is no collision. You have to either explain causation or give an example of vibranium absorbing something it doesn't come in contact with.

You are not addressing my arguments but ignoring them and arguing around them. This is trolling. I gave an example of the Earth-moon system that refutes your argument. You must address this argument specifically, not ignore it. Otherwise, you are ignoring evidence.

You have to prove (since it wasn't shown) that vibranium can dampen kinetic energy or molecules without ever coming in contact with them.

Flashes basically make their molecules move between the object's molecules without coming in contact with them.

I don't believe you at all. I don't recall that Ultron said or implied that he was composed of vibranium. Otherwise, he wouldn't be trying to get into the vision model (which was made of vibranium). If you say that he was partially vibranium, then you defeated your argument. Think about it.