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I personally asked the man on Twitter regarding the canonicity of novel blurbs, specifically the Darth Plagueis blurb, his reply was this:

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/880295795920035840

Therefor we can conclude that the blurb in question is infact subjective and is not an actual statement of fact.

https://uscrow.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/nuclear-blast.gif

AP's faggotry has risen to new heights. Luckily matching the passive energy output of quadrillions of beings with Sidious puts Plagueis above Vitiate/Valkorian anyways.

#GitRekt

https://media.giphy.com/media/Le7SZwGosyvdK/giphy.gif

Oh and Valkorion being a far more powerful iteration of Vitiate, who only required a few billion deaths to reduce the galaxy to a lifeless, colourless, Force void is more impressive than requiring Darth Sidious' aid and months of constant meditation to exploit a dark side rift which existed prior to their combined efforts.

Not counting the fact that the text explicitly states them not meeting any form of resistance and that they are infact tricked into creating a being destined to destroy them both.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I personally asked the man on Twitter regarding the canonicity of novel blurbs, specifically the Darth Plagueis blurb, his reply was this:

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/880295795920035840

Therefor we can conclude that the blurb in question is infact subjective and is not an actual statement of fact.

https://uscrow.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/nuclear-blast.gif

http://a.fod4.com/images/GifGuide/dancing/tumblr_lgqwsbEa891qfjmnk.gif

Welp, there goes the Plagueis Brigade. RIP.

So much for Plagueis scaling.

Nice find, AP.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Welp, there goes the Plagueis Brigade. RIP.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Welp, there goes the Plagueis Brigade. RIP.

Originally posted by AncientPower
https://media.giphy.com/media/Le7SZwGosyvdK/giphy.gif

a dark side rift which existed prior to their combined efforts.

Are you referring to the tear that Tenebrous's master made in the impermeable Force bubble that kept the Galaxy bathed in light for centuries only making the feat more impressive given how tilted it would have been in favor of the Light at the time Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced the Force? That "dark side rift?"

Lel.

Vitiate caused an inbalance in the Force by simply existing and spreading his darkness, and prompted the Force to spawn a champion of light, specifically task with taking him down, per the Revan novel.

No ritual, or teamups needed

Taalon>Both

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vitiate caused an inbalance in the Force by simply existing and spreading his darkness,

Going to need a quote.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vitiate caused an inbalance in the Force by simply existing and spreading his darkness, and prompted the Force to spawn a champion of light, specifically task with taking him down, per the Revan novel.

No ritual, or teamups needed

mmm

Even if I were generous enough to grant that comparison, that's still not true. Plagueis's cosmic accomplishment required him and Sidious and a couple of months. Vitiate's required eight thousand Sith Lords and fourteen centuries. So not only was there a ritual involved, so too were teamups.

Thousands of them.

i know you said you were trying to help them, but i'm kinda worried they are rubbing off on u and not the other way around.

I like how he just says that blurbs can be subjective, so that somehow means that the blurb is non-canon...

Also, Taylor, you're Asian? How the hell are you so dumb then?

Soo...what did he say that already isn't?

He said they were subjective...which people were already taking them or not taking them before. So nothing changed here.

Originally posted by MythLord
I like how he just says that blurbs can be subjective, so that somehow means that the blurb is non-canon...

Also, Taylor, you're Asian? How the hell are you so dumb then?

Quite a few dumb asians in the States tbh.

"Blurbs have license to be subjective."

--Leland Chee

Now, how the **** does that translate into "They are not canon"?

Lol, looks to me that Chee fobbed you off with an evasive non-answer. Shame.Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vitiate caused an inbalance in the Force by simply existing and spreading his darkness, and prompted the Force to spawn a champion of light, specifically task with taking him down, per the Revan novel.

No ritual, or teamups needed You appeared to have confused Vitiate with his infinite better DC, Sheev. This is what the Revan novel actually says:

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

FYI: This is Revan's opinion, not fact, but even if interpreted as such, nowhere is it stated that Vitiate caused galactic scale imbalance, merely that he was a threat to it. Pls don't pick up bad habits from AP and start peddling misinformation.

Good find.

It doesn't prove the blurbs' lack of canonical status. What it DOES prove, is that nobody can argue that the blurb(s) are inarguable facts. By Chee's own word, it's subjective, meaning the viewer gets to decide whether they agree on the blurb when comparing it to other sources.

Originally posted by darthbane77
It doesn't prove the blurbs' lack of canonical status. What it DOES prove, is that nobody can argue that the blurb(s) are inarguable facts. By Chee's own word, it's subjective, meaning the viewer gets to decide whether they agree on the blurb when comparing it to other sources.

So nothing has changed, cause people have been doing that anyway.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm
Even if I were generous enough to grant that comparison, that's still not true. Plagueis's cosmic accomplishment required him and Sidious and a couple of months. Vitiate's required eight thousand Sith Lords and fourteen centuries. So not only was there a ritual involved, so too were teamups.

Yes, it did take a boatload of shit to make Vitiate the factual most powerful and dominating Force sensitive to eve live up to his time.

However, Vitiate was never, as far as I know, actively trying to imbalance the Force. The ritual - the 8,000 Sith Lords - so on and so fourth, was all to make Vitiate more powerful on personal level and grant quasi immortality. He was never actively trying to participate in a tug-of-war with the Force, or it's agents. The effect Vitiate had on the Force's balance, or anything related to it, and what not, was strictly a by-product of his powers and insidious deeds, not the crux.

My point is: Vitiate was such an iniquitous anomaly in the Force, that the omnipresent energy field felt the need to spawn a prophesied champion of light, a thousands years in the making Plagueis and Sidious had much greater results and a significant more potent affect on the galaxy, but that was their goal they prepped for it, they sought it out and tried with all their might , and it was a shared feat that can't be just handed to one or the other.
Vitiate on the other hand greatly affected the Force by simply, and essentially, being him, and not trying to defy particularly.


All I'm saying is, given the circumstances, I don't know how, or why people see that as the definitive Plagueis > all but Sidious argument. Vitiate never tried to unbalance the Force, but he never wanted to - his ultimate goal was to absorb the entire galaxy and the Force with it.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
i know you said you were trying to help them, but i'm kinda worried they are rubbing off on u and not the other way around.

You worry too much, my experiment won't be in vain.

Niiceee

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, it did take a boatload of shit to make Vitiate the factual most powerful and dominating Force sensitive to eve live up to his time.

However, Vitiate was never, as far as I know, actively trying to imbalance the Force. The ritual - the 8,000 Sith Lords - so on and so fourth, was all to make Vitiate more powerful on personal level and grant quasi immortality. He was never actively trying to participate in a tug-of-war with the Force, or it's agents. The effect Vitiate had on the Force's balance, or anything related to it, and what not, was strictly a by-product of his powers and insidious deeds, not the crux.

My point is: Vitiate was such an iniquitous anomaly in the Force, that the omnipresent energy field felt the need to spawn a prophesied champion of light, a thousands years in the making Plagueis and Sidious had much greater results and a significant more potent affect on the galaxy, but that was their goal they prepped for it, they sought it out and tried with all their might , and it was a shared feat that can't be just handed to one or the other.
Vitiate on the other hand greatly affected the Force by simply, and essentially, being him, and not trying to defy particularly.


All I'm saying is, given the circumstances, I don't know how, or why people see that as the definitive Plagueis > all but Sidious argument. Vitiate never tried to unbalance the Force, but he never wanted to - his ultimate goal was to absorb the entire galaxy and the Force with it.still peddlin'

This does indeed change things

Originally posted by Beniboybling
still peddlin'

Peddling facts? Yeah, I'd agree. I recall I had this argument with you in the past, not gonna do this dance again.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So nothing has changed, cause people have been doing that anyway. True, but there are some people I've seen that argue the blurb as inarguably canon, now we know for a fact that certainly is not the case.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Going to need a quote.



---Excerpt from Old Republic - Revan

The Force wouldn't spawn the HoT, a prophesied champion of light to destroy Vitiate if it's balance wasn't in danger, or tipped in the darksides favor.

We can adhere to Beni's belief that it is just Revan opinion, but I don't see a reason too Revan was right about the a champion rising to kill Vitiate, as confirmed by Scourge:



---Excerpt from Old Republic - Revan

Revan was correct about a champion rising and ending Vitiate hence his death of Dramond Kaas, so I see no reason for him to be wrong on the balance bit when the entire reason he predicted a champion is because Vitiate is such a potent agent of darkness.

But whatever, you can take this for what you will, but that is the way I interpet the text and such.

Vitiate didn't die on Dromund Kaas, he was killed by the smuglander. So we have a prophecy that amounts to the opinion of two guys, on a thing that never actually happened.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
We can adhere to Beni's belief that it is just Revan opinion, but I don't see a reason too Revan was right about the a champion rising to kill Vitiate, as confirmed by Scourge Like I said, even if you take Revan's word at face value, the idea that Vitiate unbalanced the galaxy is no where said i.e made up.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Peddling facts? Yeah, I'd agree. I recall I had this argument with you in the past, not gonna do this dance again. Yeah, I recall pointing out the the HoT is no less special than various other champions throughout the ages. You had no response.

Plagueis and Caedus just got debunked.

Originally posted by darthbane77
It doesn't prove the blurbs' lack of canonical status. What it DOES prove, is that nobody can argue that the blurb(s) are inarguable facts. By Chee's own word, it's subjective, meaning the viewer gets to decide whether they agree on the blurb when comparing it to other sources.

Somebody was intelligent enough to get it.

The blurb is canon, but not a statement of fact, it's subjective and absolutely not definitive.

But hey, I was wondering what kind of BS spin they'd try to pull this time.

To be fair, this is Karma.

Those who stood by the #blurbsarefacts agenda did so on the basis of Leeland Chee's broader comments regarding the continuity. For those same people to come out and argue his statements on the subjectivity of specific blurbs are bullshit, makes the first point redundant anyway. It's a self for-filling prophecy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vitiate didn't die on Dromund Kaas, he was killed by the smuglander. So we have a prophecy that amounts to the opinion of two guys, on a thing that never actually happened.
Like I said, even if you take Revan's word at face value, the idea that Vitiate unbalanced the galaxy is no where said i.e made up.

Technically, he did "kill' Vitiate. Vitiate's influence over the galaxy never the same since his defeat. I don't actually consider his Valkorion incarnation an actual Sith, and neither did Valkorion himself, so it stands to me.

Alternately, a case could be made that the Outlander is, in fact, The Hero of Tython, thus beyond a doubt fulfilling prophecy.



Vitiate threatened the omnipresent energy field that binds the galaxy together in the Force, ergo he threatened the balance of the galaxy by proxy.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, I recall pointing out the the HoT is no less special than various other champions throughout the ages. You had no response.

Except their arrivals weren't prophoseid, or stated to be, the Force's direct response to counteract an agent of darkness o Vitiate caliber.

You were just grasping straws to save face, at that point.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, if Vitiate threatened the omnipresent energy field that bounds the galaxy together in the Force, ergo he threatened the balance of the galaxy by proxy.

Obviously you're not clinically retarded enough to be suggesting that threatening the balance of the galaxy after thousands of years and only with immense help is equal to actually unbalancing the galaxy... so could you please clarify for little old me?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Technically, he did "kill' Vitiate. Vitiate's influence over the galaxy never the same since his defeat. I don't actually consider his Valkorion incarnation an actual Sith, and neither did Valkorion himself, so it stands to me.No, that's not killing.

Right, so the concept works if we follow KMC head canon, and pretend words don't mean what they mean.

Threatening balance =/= upsetting the balance, you work out which is more impressive.

EDIT: Ninja'ed.

No, you just missed the point. That the act of the Force directing a champion to take down a threatening evil isn't that uncommon. Whether or not someone had a vision of it, which happen all the time.

Revan literally states that it's inevitable champions will rise up to face agents of the dark side, this is not hard to grasp.

Not what I was claiming my lovely. Read my second reply to Temp for clarification, pls.

Edit: Ninja'd by Beni.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Not what I was claiming my lovely. Read my second reply to Temp for clarification, pls.

Edit: Ninja'd by Beni.

Except you claim Vitiate unbalanced the force (or 'greatly affected it'), and then in your justification only go as far as to claim he threatened it.

Hence the need for clarification mmm

You realise the Outlander is canonically the HoT due to the promotional material, in the same way Iconic male Shepard was effectively canon for ME. Furthermore, it's supported by Scourge's premonition. A premonition that fits KOTET Ch.9 to a T.

Right, more of AP's special rules. tell me more

fyi: shepard is female in plenty of promotion material.

0/10 not even trying now Beni?

HoTlander is canon, you'd have to be absolutely brain dead not to see that.

No I do not try against you, or any retards these days.

So are blurbs not promotional material in APLand? Seems like a wonderous place.

It'd be pretty shameful for you to get your ass handed to you in every thread by a 'retard', fortunately for you, your bravado isn't changing anything debunked by this thread. Nor is it going to override common fvcking sense.

Scourge literally states the ending of KOTET by the letter during his conversation with the HOT, with the HOT being the one to slay the Emperor and take his (eternal) throne.

The novel, the Jedi Knight storyline and the expansions themselves all depict the HOT as the Outlander.

You've got nothing but denial of all basic intellect to claim otherwise.

Originally posted by Selenial
So are blurbs not promotional material in APLand? Seems like a wonderous place.

If only the blurb in question was backed up by something in the actual canon, how unfortunate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If only the blurb in question was backed up by something in the actual canon, how unfortunate.

Plagueis blurb is backed up by arguable, though not infallible quotes and logic.
Outlander being HOT is backed up by arguable, though not infallible quotes and logic.

Point out the difference to me, other than you believe one and not the other. mmm

Originally posted by AncientPower
It'd be pretty shameful for you to get your ass handed to you in every thread by a 'retard', fortunately for you, your bravado isn't changing anything debunked by this thread. Nor is it going to override common fvcking sense.That selective memory still working wonders for you huh?

Right, and the expansions also depict the Outlander as all of the other classes, there is even dialogue and stuff. weird.

Except the point here is that literally all of this is destined for the HoT, and the sheer likelihood is beyond speculation at this point, NewGuy, Skillz and Ant have all made the argument before me and without any kind of leeway to doubt it.

The Plagueis blurb doesn't have anywhere near as much supporting evidence and there's even doubt of this claim being accurate in the same damn book.

Yeah, pretty sure it is, lmao. He technically killed him, but Vitiate found some way to "cheat" death. That's like saying Vader didn't kill Sidious when he through him down the shaft - he did.




Nah, but you're entitled to believe what you will.

I ain't mad at you.





http://rs614.pbsrc.com/albums/tt224/supnick/original%20content/ellen3.gif~c200



Yeah it pretty much is, since we only have 2 factual instances of it actually happening in canon, or Legends or whatever, where the Force anoints a single body - thousands of years ahead of time, to take out a dominating Force of evil.




When an agent of the darkside utterly threatens the balance of the Force, yeah. Something like that is only reserved for a select few.

Not seeing how this detracts from my point in anyway.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except the point here is that literally all of this is destined for the HoT, and the sheer likelihood is beyond speculation at this point, NewGuy, Skillz and Ant have all made the argument before me and without any kind of leeway to doubt it.

The Plagueis blurb doesn't have anywhere near as much supporting evidence and there's even doubt of this claim being accurate in the same damn book. No, the point is that there are eight different canon classes for SWTOR and all of it's expansions, and until BioWare state that one of these classes is canon above the others for any one expansion, they are equally valid, irrespective of what your personal head canon may be.

@AP: It's a shame that none of that means it's canon, though. You know, like you claimed?

When it comes down to it though, we have confirmation that blurbs are, in fact, fallible.

It doesn't kill the Plagueis brigade, but it does eliminate a cop-out laem, Plagueis debaters would use when they aren't good enough to argue what ILS's started.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
---Excerpt from Old Republic - Revan

The Force wouldn't spawn the HoT, a prophesied champion of light to destroy Vitiate if it's balance wasn't in danger, or tipped in the darksides favor.

We can adhere to Beni's belief that it is just Revan opinion, but I don't see a reason too Revan was right about the a champion rising to kill Vitiate, as confirmed by Scourge:



---Excerpt from Old Republic - Revan

Revan was correct about a champion rising and ending Vitiate hence his death of Dramond Kaas, so I see no reason for him to be wrong on the balance bit when the entire reason he predicted a champion is because Vitiate is such a potent agent of darkness.

But whatever, you can take this for what you will, but that is the way I interpet the text and such.

As much as Beni can be distasteful at times, there's no denying that the statement is Revan's opinion and not a canonical fact.

Even if Revan's theory was true the feat isn't equivalent to the one Plagueis and Sidious accomplished because they did it with their own power while if Vitiate had managed to unbalance the Force it would have via his actions like having set in motion a Galaxy spanning war that caused untold death and destruction and not his power as a Force user.

That's assuming the interpretation that the Force was in danger of imbalance due to Vitiate's actions is valid which is in question. All Revan suggested was that the Force sought balance. I.E. a champion of the Light to face a champion of the Dark.

For me though, it doesn't seem likely that the Force would decide to take a direct hand in things as it did with Plagueis and Sidious.

Note: There's also a difference between causing an imbalance and causing a tangible shift in the cosmic balance on a Galactic scale. To clarify I believe Revan was noting the fact that because Vitiate was a powerful Darksider a powerful Lightside would rise up to meet him just as a mediocre Darksider would be met with a mediocre Lightsider. All things being equal.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
As much as Beni can be distasteful at timesmsn-cry

ily bb

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Taylor, you're Asian? How the hell are you so dumb then?


She's pinoy, they're the dumb asians lol.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, it did take a boatload of shit to make Vitiate the factual most powerful and dominating Force sensitive to eve live up to his time.

However, Vitiate was never, as far as I know, actively trying to imbalance the Force. The ritual - the 8,000 Sith Lords - so on and so fourth, was all to make Vitiate more powerful on personal level and grant quasi immortality. He was never actively trying to participate in a tug-of-war with the Force, or it's agents. The effect Vitiate had on the Force's balance, or anything related to it, and what not, was strictly a by-product of his powers and insidious deeds, not the crux.

My point is: Vitiate was such an iniquitous anomaly in the Force, that the omnipresent energy field felt the need to spawn a prophesied champion of light, a thousands years in the making Plagueis and Sidious had much greater results and a significant more potent affect on the galaxy, but that was their goal they prepped for it, they sought it out and tried with all their might , and it was a shared feat that can't be just handed to one or the other.
Vitiate on the other hand greatly affected the Force by simply, and essentially, being him, and not trying to defy particularly.


All I'm saying is, given the circumstances, I don't know how, or why people see that as the definitive Plagueis > all but Sidious argument. Vitiate never tried to unbalance the Force, but he never wanted to - his ultimate goal was to absorb the entire galaxy and the Force with it.

The critical problem with your argument is that it's completely dishonest. It's disingenuous as hell to attribute those amplifiers to Vitiate's "presence," which was boosted significantly by rituals, the power of eight thousand Sith Lords, a planet's worth of life energy, and fourteen centuries of activity.

Comparing that to Plagueis/Sidious's ritual, which was conducted between exactly two Sith Lords and spanned a couple of months, isn't particularly flattering for Vitiate.

And that's assuming I generously grant you your very liberal appraisal of Vitiate/HOT in the first place. (Which Beni has already debunked: it's based on nothing more than Revan's opinion.)

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You worry too much, my experiment won't be in vain.

k mmm

WOW, tough crowd.

I feel like a member of the Aryan Nation at a BLM convention.

Don't make me kick you off the stage only to hold 5 minutes of silence for our dead comrade ( old DC ).

Originally posted by AncientPower
Somebody was intelligent enough to get it.

The blurb is canon, but not a statement of fact, it's subjective and absolutely not definitive.

But hey, I was wondering what kind of BS spin they'd try to pull this time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The critical problem with your argument is that it's completely dishonest. It's disingenuous as hell to attribute those amplifiers to Vitiate's "presence," which was boosted significantly by rituals, the power of eight thousand Sith Lords, a planet's worth of life energy, and fourteen centuries of activity.

Comparing that to Plagueis/Sidious's ritual, which was conducted between exactly two Sith Lords and spanned a couple of months, isn't particularly flattering for Vitiate.

And that's assuming I generously grant you your very liberal appraisal of Vitiate/HOT in the first place. (Which Beni has already debunked: it's based on nothing more than Revan's opinion.)



k mmm

Except that again, Vitiate's intent was not to actively 'nudge' the Force using yoga zen bullshit. It was the byproduct of other evil shit he was engaging in at the time.

He was accumulating personal power and making an empire, and effectively outstripped Sidious or Plag-e-ass in terms of achieving immortality and being a force of nature unto himself.

If you want to be really petty, Sids got benchpressed into a chasm and then shot in the back by a muggle, and Plags died in his sleep of Nyquil overdose. Their ability to do Dark Side tantric mode didn't do shit for them then.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2278565/Orlando5.gif

^ Lowball mode engage

Originally posted by Trocity
She's pinoy, they're the dumb asians lol.

>The driving force of south east asian educational excellence.
>A country that teaches three languages as basic elementary education.
>'dumb'

A country who has a quarter of their population living in poverty, man sign me up!

The country that is one of the top 3 growing economies in the world? Yep, that's the one, you racist baffoon.

Kind of hard NOT to be one of the top growing economies in the world if you're a shit tier nation experiencing even mild success.

So, like most of Europe and the United States then? But without the crippling multi-trillion dollar debt.

Please continue with your complete lack of knowledge about my country.

If this is the best you idiots can come up with in reaction to Chee nuking Plagueis wank, then just delete your accounts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The country that is one of the top 3 growing economies in the world? Yep, that's the one, you racist baffoon.

It's buffoon, you dumb pinoy rofl.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So, like most of Europe and the United States then? But without the crippling multi-trillion dollar debt.

Please continue with your complete lack of knowledge about my country.

If this is the best you idiots can come up with in reaction to Chee nuking Plagueis wank, then just delete your accounts.

> Thinks their third world country is in any way comparable with the most advanced/powerful nation that has ever existed.

> Rofl.

This topic is getting derailed. A few points in short.

- Blurbs are very fallible (obviously)
- A force wide unbalancing wasn't the goal of Vitiate
- The goal of immortality was desired by Plagueis
- Vitiate achieved it in a sense
- Plagueis is probably less powerful than Nhillus or Vitiate
- He's potentially weaker than Murr or Kun in a combat sense

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
WOW, tough crowd.

I feel like a member of the Aryan Nation at a BLM convention. Why can't that be the truth

Originally posted by AncientPower
>The driving force of south east asian educational excellence.
>A country that teaches three languages as basic elementary education.
>'dumb'



And despite all that you're still an imbecile. Honestly, you're just digging yourself into a much deeper hole right now.

Originally posted by Kjam
's potentially weaker than Murr

Murr... ****ING MUUR!?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except that again, Vitiate's intent was not to actively 'nudge' the Force using yoga zen bullshit. It was the byproduct of other evil shit he was engaging in at the time.

The problem is that there's no evidence that the Force was 'nudged' at all.



Not really: the ritual on Nathema prolonged his life, but did not confer upon him immortality per sources like the SWTOR Encyclopedia and Codex.



I see you've been triggered.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, it did take a boatload of shit to make Vitiate the factual most powerful and dominating Force sensitive to eve live up to his time.

However, Vitiate was never, as far as I know, actively trying to imbalance the Force. The ritual - the 8,000 Sith Lords - so on and so fourth, was all to make Vitiate more powerful on personal level and grant quasi immortality. He was never actively trying to participate in a tug-of-war with the Force, or it's agents. The effect Vitiate had on the Force's balance, or anything related to it, and what not, was strictly a by-product of his powers and insidious deeds, not the crux.

My point is: Vitiate was such an iniquitous anomaly in the Force, that the omnipresent energy field felt the need to spawn a prophesied champion of light, a thousands years in the making Plagueis and Sidious had much greater results and a significant more potent affect on the galaxy, but that was their goal they prepped for it, they sought it out and tried with all their might , and it was a shared feat that can't be just handed to one or the other.
Vitiate on the other hand greatly affected the Force by simply, and essentially, being him, and not trying to defy particularly.


All I'm saying is, given the circumstances, I don't know how, or why people see that as the definitive Plagueis > all but Sidious argument. Vitiate never tried to unbalance the Force, but he never wanted to - his ultimate goal was to absorb the entire galaxy and the Force with it.

Umm...



Someone who declares himself the Master of the Force would probably want to dominate it or defy it, especially given said person's end goal he just there described.

Too bad Vitiate never even came close, despite living for almost 1500 in total. Plagueis came far closer in just a few decades, and with Sidious' help, yes, but what you may not have taken into account is that Sidious was considerably weaker than Plagueis when they performed the feat and thus the majority of the work was Plagueis' doing, and that Plagueis grew in power significantly after that point. I'd wager prime Plagueis could replicate the feat solo, although perhaps not to such extreme results.

And I still don't understand why people even cling to that - or the blurb - as the primary source of Plagueis' supremacy. ILS explained it perfectly a few months ago, and so far no one has successfully debunked it. Basically, what dictates your ability to use the Force is your baseline willpower; this can be seen all over SW, in all eras, but to cite a few examples:

Darth Sion and Revan - keep their bodies together through sheer willpower, attaining immortality and thus circumventing the need to study.

Bane vs Zannah - Bane resists Zannah's highly complex Spells of Madness through sheer willpower, thus circumventing the need for extensive study.

Maul vs Obi-Wan - TPM Padawan Obi-Wan resists Maul's Force Suppression, one of the most rare and advanced Force abilities (in the opinion of Darth Bane, a highly knowledgeable Sith Lord) through sheer willpower despite never having heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.

Darth Wyyrlok vs Darth Andeddu - Wyyrlok resists Andeddu's mental attack and turns it back on him, killing the latter, through sheer willpower despite never having heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.

Cade Skywalker vs Darth Maladi - Cade resists Maladi's mental attack and turns it back on her through sheer willpower despite having never heard of the technique, thus circumventing the need for study.

Noticing a pattern here? No matter how long-lived, knowledgeable, studied or versatile of a Force user Vitiate may be, it is all irrelevant in the face of sheer willpower. Plagueis, of course, has more willpower than any other SW character aside from the later incarnations of Palpatine and Luke, and possibly Yoda. This can be seen in his midi-chlorian manipulation ability, which perfectly embodies the kind of dominance he achieved over the Force; the kind that Vitiate never did. Midi-chlorians are the organnells that the Force uses to exert its will over the physical world; they are the basis of all life and allow living beings to touch the Force, so manipulating them would be the equivalent of manipualting the will of the Force, life itself, and the Force on its most fundamental level.

And that is exactly what Plagueis did, and the results were nothing short of mind-numbing. Plagueis mastered life an death, allowing him live forever by simply willing it, or kill someone by simply willing it, or bring someone back from the death through the same method. He could erase existing midi-clorians or create new ones from scratch, essentially making himself - or anyone - weaker or stronger just by thinking about it. He could grant himself any Force ability he desired, again, simply by willing it, once more showing how he could defy the Force's will and dominate it.

Valkorion never came close to stratching the surface. As a result of possessing inferior willpower, Valkorion's ability to use the Force is also inferior, and thus, he is a less powerful Force user than Darth Plagueis. In the end, it could be said that midi-chlorians weren't executing the Force's will; they were executing Plagueis' will. If the Force is a god, then Plagueis is also one. Plagueis is not just the penultimate Banite Sith, he is the penultimate Sith Lord, period. And Valkorion pales in comparison.

I've also made the case here, if anyone wants a read:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-plagueis-vs-valkorion-1758978/?page=1#js-message-18807629

You can ignore the stuff about the blurbs, that's not even the crux of the argument.

His way of "defying it", was absorbing the very thing that it bounded together - the galaxy, which is a bit above simply imbalancing it, until his plans were thwarted by HoT and crew.

Far as I know, he has never made an attempt to actually imbalance it, because he simply had bigger ambitions.

About balance of the Force:-

http://i68.tinypic.com/rm19bq.png
http://i64.tinypic.com/24p0275.png

Originally posted by Kjam
Plagueis is probably less powerful than Nhillus or Vitiate
He's potentially weaker than Murr or Kun in a combat sense

???

Basis for either of these?

If we correlated willpower to actual Force power, then Revan would be far above Vitiate; as evidenced by him having greater willpower than Vitiate in their mental war (contending with him + his near-equal in the Dread Masters.)

The book literally says that Plagueis and Sidious encountered no resistance from the Force; with Plagueis recognizing the fact that the Force could, at any moment, stop their hearts from beating.

The context of the quote was in reference to the ritual they used to assert their 'sovereignty' over the Force, and as such, we can conclude that the Force didn't even try to fight back against them. Plagueis recognized that it was well within its capabilities to do so, as shown below:


Plagueis never had any dominance over the will of the Force; he defied it, and got Anakin sicced on him as a result. If he truly did have dominance over it, he could've prevented such a thing from happening.

This is contradicted directly by Plagueis himself.


Plagueis outright admits that the only way he could truly override the will of the Force was by creating a Forceful being. Yet the Force refuted these attempts to override its will by killing them off and creating Anakin to end their creator once and for all, adding further evidence that Plagueis did no such thing.

He remained convinced that he was going to succeed though, and in the end, he did; though he didn't create it - the Force did as a result of his defiance of its will, not his dominance over it.

Contradicted. See above.

Huh, nice post slayne
That being said, since when are the Dreadmasters "near equals" of Vitiate?

Arguing with Plagueis fans is like arguing with new feminists.

Hego's Fanbridge : butt.. buttt.. Plagueis fought a battle of wills against the Force, and won!

No, the Force allowed itself to be tipped. Possibly joning in the process itself. Just like men allowed women suffragettes to have the vote.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Huh, nice post slayne
That being said, since when are the Dreadmasters "near equals" of Vitiate?
Thanks

Sorry, I meant near-equal in telepathy due to their Oricon feat.

I'm just going to post this irrelevant link because I might be high (no it isn't on weed, I don't even know where to find weed):

https://youtu.be/l1ivcVgQ7pk?t=645

Slayne is correct, Plagueis did not defeat the Force in a battle of wills, which did not attempt to thwart their efforts to influence it. Obviously the idea that any being could be strong enough to overpower the Force itself is absurd, and would make Shitiate appear a protozoa in comparison. However he forgets that despite that, Plagueis and his apprentice were nonetheless successful in suffusing the entire galaxy with the dark side through use of their own faculties, and disrupted the Jedi's ability to use the Force in the process:Which, considering the immensity of cosmic energy they'd had to have influenced to perform such a feat, would have required an equally immense amount of will, regardless of whether the Force itself tried to intervene. Moreso when you consider that the Jedi had erected a galaxy spanning Force bubble to prevent against this kind of influence:FYI, this bubble was, conceivably by their actions, utterly destroyed:And yes, as a result, Plagueis achieved a god-like scope of abilities, including the ability to stretch his presence across the breadth of the galaxy to announce himself to every living thing in local existence:And achieved unprecedented mastery over life and death besides, which yes, caused the Force to spawn a practical demi-god in retaliation.

Naturally, ninnies like Jackie-boy consistently fail to register this (along with spouting baseless silliness that the Force actually assisted them in their efforts), but that's the Turks for you.

Finally, Azronger is also correct in stating that will directly correlates with the ability to use the Force. Palpatine years later, detailing how through a technique combining will with anger, he could unlock immense hidden energies within himself:

http://i.imgur.com/Adv2sgI.png

Plagueis reaching a similar breakthrough regarding the use of will, through which he was confident anything was achievable:We only needing imagine what a galactonic level of willpower - the driving catalyst behind Palpatine's dark side storms - could achieve if applied to use of the Force, and it > Valkorion.

Guys let's not resort to racial insults, that's mean. Yeah this is KMC and I've got no authority or control over here, but this is going too far.

It's a joke, my man.

Yeah, but some jokes can be hurtful, but then again, 2 Ethiopians and a Somolian have had beef with me for 2 weeks because I broke their hot dog in half when I was bored and annoyed at the fact that they want to be friends with me.

They challenged me to a race as a way to settle the beef, but I cheated by running in the opposite direction, 'cause bum unneccassry movement.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Yeah, but some jokes can be hurtfulIf Jackie was hurt by my comments, mission accomplished.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We only needing imagine what a galactonic level of willpower - the driving catalyst behind Palpatine's dark side storms - could achieve if applied to use of the Force, and it > Valkorion.
And every other character in Star Wars.

You're learning.

Originally posted by Kjam
Arguing with Plagueis fans is like arguing with new feminists.

Hego's Fanbridge : butt.. buttt.. Plagueis fought a battle of wills against the Force, and won!

No, the Force allowed itself to be tipped. Possibly joning in the process itself. Just like men allowed women suffragettes to have the vote.

lmao shut the f*ck up, male.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Yeah, but some jokes can be hurtful, but then again, 2 Ethiopians and a Somolian have had beef with me for 2 weeks because I broke their hot dog in half when I was bored and annoyed at the fact that they want to be friends with me.

They challenged me to a race as a way to settle the beef, but I cheated by running in the opposite direction, 'cause bum unneccassry movement.

WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANY PERTAINING TO THE THREAD!?

The 2 Ethiopians > Valkorion

Originally posted by AncientPower
>The driving force of south east asian educational excellence.
>A country that teaches three languages as basic elementary education.
>'dumb'


Look at #117.

I can teach you three languages, young man! You will not disreshpect me!

Originally posted by MythLord
WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANY PERTAINING TO THE THREAD!?

Idk, I think I might have offended them without even saying the N word.

Dude, that wasn't the question.

You Muslims are the reason nobody takes Asia srsly.
It's why my fellow Pinoy and Pinay and Pinheads are so underestimated.

How the arguments have devolved.

Okay okay, perhaps novel blurbs written by publishers are subjective

Okay, perhaps Plagueis wasn't having a tug of war with the Force and winning

BUT HE BELIEVES HE HAS THE WILLPOWER TO DO ANYTHING HE WANTS. IT'S WRITTEN RIGHT HERE IN BLACK & WHITE, FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE.

It would be more believable if he didn't die.

Concession accepted my man.

Originally posted by MythLord
You Muslims are the reason nobody takes Asia srsly.
It's why my fellow Pinoy and Pinay and Pinheads are so underestimated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z34ao_JW-Mk&feature=youtu.be&t=1357

Originally posted by Kjam
How the arguments have devolved.

Okay okay, perhaps novel blurbs written by publishers are subjective

Okay, perhaps Plagueis wasn't having a tug of war with the Force and winning

BUT HE BELIEVES HE HAS THE WILLPOWER TO DO ANYTHING HE WANTS. IT'S WRITTEN RIGHT HERE IN BLACK & WHITE, FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE.

It would be more believable if he didn't die.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


You ruined it.

I like how the PT brigade is so monumentally butthurt that they have to resort to massed personal attacks because their head canon got obliterated in one thread.

Even Temp should be proud.

Nothing's changed, my Anti-Matter Universe counterpart.

Don't worry, you won't need to reply to me soon. Not that you'll have a choice.

What? This was known 2 years ago lmao

Originally posted by Kjam
You ruined it.
But I was on the right path....

Seems the opposition can only troll and shit post in response, sad.

Lmao, as if Darth Plagueis's power was only judged by that novel blurb and not actual showings and accolades.

Makes practically no difference, tbh.

It makes an enormous difference actually, most if not all arguments were predicated on Plagueis > Valkorion scaling via that quote, but now that's all down the drain. Now the argument has to be made via feats, which would be most humorous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It makes an enormous difference actually, most if not all arguments were predicated on Plagueis > Valkorion scaling via that quote, but now that's all down the drain. Now the argument has to be made via feats, which would be most humorous.

Though now we have apparently that Vitiate had all the power he had as Valk all the way back in the Revan novel....and Revan was a legitimate threat to him?

It's claimed that he's a threat, but in actual practice he was being dominated by Vitiate in a Force exchange and required having his life saved twice.

But no, Vitiate was constantly growing in power, draining hundreds of powerful beings-Revan included-, before he even had the Ziost power growth, which is by all means a more powerful source than Nathema was.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's claimed that he's a threat, but in actual practice he was being dominated by Vitiate in a Force exchange and required having his life saved twice.

But no, Vitiate was constantly growing in power, draining hundreds of powerful beings-Revan included-, before he even had the Ziost power growth, which is by all means a more powerful source than Nathema was.

Yet it's noted, that even as of the novel he was as powerful as he was when the whole Ziost incident came around.

"The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again."

"For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. "

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9347029#edit9347029

Unless I'm not really getting it, he was doing this whole Zakuul thing even before the game or novel even takes place.

Neither of which say Novel!Vitiate is as powerful as Valkorion. Boyd says Shadow of Revan's events replenished the power he had lost upon dying at the hands of the Wrath and then the Hero of Tython.

Further more, he states Revan is the only other person who ever stood up to him at nearly the degree that the Hotlander did on Ziost. I.E the only other person he couldn't just swat.

You're reading into it too much.

Originally posted by Petrus
Lmao, as if Darth Plagueis's power was only judged by that novel blurb and not actual showings and accolades.

Makes practically no difference, tbh. Everyone graspin what AP don't.

A great way of saying you have nothing to say.

Oh noes! Plagueis has epic dark side will!

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're reading into it too much.

Nah, Boyd used the phrase "legitimate threat." Zen's right.

Revan is a legitimate threat to novel! Vitiate, we knew that in the book.

That is not the point.

Sure it is. Because this:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Further more, he states Revan is the only other person who ever stood up to him at nearly the degree that the Hotlander did on Ziost. I.E the only other person he couldn't just swat.

Is disingenuous. Boyd describes them both as legitimate threats, not the minor obstacles you'd like them to be considered.

I never said they were minor nor am I even arguing so, re-read the thread. You're making a false equivalence.

In July's installment of AP's Word or Phrase of the Month, we have "legitimate threat," which is defined thusly:

Originally posted by AncientPower
I.E the only other person he couldn't just swat.

Lmao.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It makes an enormous difference actually, most if not all arguments were predicated on Plagueis > Valkorion scaling via that quote, but now that's all down the drain. Now the argument has to be made via feats, which would be most humorous.

It can also be made via scaling in terms of RoT. Although I'm not a huge fan of the assumption that every RoT member is more powerful than the previous one, there are specific cases in which this cannot be refuted, and this particular one regarding Plagueis is one of them. Knowing that as of TPM Sidious and Plagueis are roughly equal, you can say with certainty Plagueis is indeed in Valkorion's ballpark.

Unless of course you rank TPM Sidious considerably lower than most people here do or if you don't consider him at the very least more powerful than Vitiate. Which would be ridiculous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh noes! Plagueis has epic dark side will! Originally posted by AncientPower
A great way of saying you have nothing to say.Quite.

Originally posted by Petrus
Lmao, as if Darth Plagueis's power was only judged by that novel blurb and not actual showings and accolades.

Makes practically no difference, tbh.

It does and it doesn't. Is Hego still the second most powerful sith? Arguably yes. It's just not a definitive yes.

Originally posted by Petrus
Although I'm not a huge fan of the assumption that every RoT member is more powerful than the previous one

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. One supported since, what, 1999? Right up to 2015, as well.

if we're taking legitimate threat to be combative, wouldn't the quote also put the outlander above revan?

No, since they obviously aren't, since the Outlander isn't canonically a Jedi / Sith like we assume.

Originally posted by Petrus
It can also be made via scaling in terms of RoT. Although I'm not a huge fan of the assumption that every RoT member is more powerful than the previous one, there are specific cases in which this cannot be refuted, and this particular one regarding Plagueis is one of them. Knowing that as of TPM Sidious and Plagueis are roughly equal, you can say with certainty Plagueis is indeed in Valkorion's ballpark.

Unless of course you rank TPM Sidious considerably lower than most people here do or if you don't consider him at the very least more powerful than Vitiate. Which would be ridiculous.
No, your assumption is ridiculous.

Darth Plagueis is not close to Vitiate (SWTOR) in strength, let alone Valkorion.

I would rank Darth Plagueis on the level of Vitiate (Novel) in strength at maximum.

top lel

Originally posted by Beniboybling
top lel
Better and more realistic than your ridiculous rankings and placements.

Between Revan (Reborn) and Yoda is the right position for Darth Plagueis and I consider these 3 to be very close.

Right, Yoda > Plagueis > Valk >> Revan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. One supported since, what, 1999? Right up to 2015, as well.

But there are exceptions. And it's not a fact in canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, your assumption is ridiculous.

Darth Plagueis is not close to Vitiate (SWTOR) in strength, let alone Valkorion.

I would rank Darth Plagueis on the level of Vitiate (Novel) in strength at maximum.

You're basically saying TPM Sidious is not close to Vitiate in strength, which makes your argument ridiculous.

At maximum? Lol, because Novel Vitiate has showed a shitload of combative power and abilities. Plagueis > Novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by Petrus
But there are exceptions.https://media.tenor.com/images/8e1ca004043b8c59421e0da43bbc43fc/tenor.gif

Vitiate absorbs his home planet using the Force, killing everyone, before his first beard sets in.

TPM Sidious has no on-screen feats, and thirteen years later got dominated by Yoda and Mace, neither of which used Force powers to offensively KO him, and each disarmed him with relative ease.

Vitiate takes former Sith Lord and Force prodigy Revan and turns him inside out.

TPM Sidious >> Vitiate.

What. The. Actual. ****.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
TPM Sidious has no on-screen feats

Neither does Vitiate, what does that have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vitiate absorbs his home planet using the Force, killing everyone, before his first beard sets in.

TPM Sidious has no on-screen feats, and thirteen years later got dominated by Yoda and Mace, neither of which used Force powers to offensively KO him, and each disarmed him with relative ease.

Vitiate takes former Sith Lord and Force prodigy Revan and turns him inside out.

TPM Sidious >> Vitiate.

What. The. Actual. ****.

Holy shit lol.

Mace and Yoda would each blitz Vitiate and ragdoll Revan with their pinky, so it hardly matters.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vitiate absorbs his home planet using the Force, killing everyone, before his first beard sets in.

TPM Sidious has no on-screen feats, and thirteen years later got dominated by Yoda and Mace, neither of which used Force powers to offensively KO him, and each disarmed him with relative ease.

Vitiate takes former Sith Lord and Force prodigy Revan and turns him inside out.

TPM Sidious >> Vitiate.

What. The. Actual. ****. Lol, what a fossil.

He's good for a chuckle though.