MJJ v.s. Legion v.s. Franklin

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DeadpoolXXX
universe-616 Mad jim jaspers-
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/5469/135328-152574-mad-jim-jaspers.jpeg

True legion-
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52185/2537427-legion21.jpg

adult Franklin richards-
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/57845/2243166-float007.jpg


so this doesnt turn into a fight of "potentials"- the characters are all limited to universal.

who outwarps the other!? big grin

Galan007
Even though he is ridiculously powerful, Franklin is still the weakest here in terms of raw power output, imo. However, he does have the tools to *potentially* take-out MJJ, via dumping him into void-space and instantly shutting down his brain... Similar to what he pulled on Nathaniel Richards here:
http://i.imgur.com/qxiwUpJ.jpg

And unlike MJJ, Franklin is able to create anything he can imagine ex nihilo(which is why the above might be possible for him):
http://i.imgur.com/AUqNsHU.jpg

But again: that would only have the potential to work IF Franklin got the jump on Jaspers(while he was fighting Legion, perhaps.) In a pure 'warp-off', however, Franklin isn't beating either of these guys.


Where Jaspers vs. Legion are concerned: toss a coin. If I *had* to pick, I would probably side with Jaspers -- but I'm honestly not sure. mmm

DeadpoolXXX
Originally posted by Galan007
Even though he is ridiculously powerful, Franklin is still the weakest here in terms of raw power output, imo. However, he does have the tools to *potentially* take-out MJJ, via dumping him into void-space and instantly shutting down his brain... Similar to what he pulled on Nathaniel Richards here:
http://i.imgur.com/qxiwUpJ.jpg

And unlike MJJ, Franklin is able to create anything he can imagine ex nihilo(which is why the above might be possible for him):
http://i.imgur.com/AUqNsHU.jpg

But again: that would only have the potential to work IF Franklin got the jump on Jaspers(while he was fighting Legion, perhaps.) In a pure 'warp-off', however, Franklin isn't beating either of these guys.


Where Jaspers vs. Legion are concerned: toss a coin. If I *had* to pick, I would probably side with Jaspers -- but I'm honestly not sure. mmm i dont understand. how would that beat mjj?

Galan007
Because that's how the Fury killed MJJ the first time..? confused


Jaspers is a Mutant, whose mind/brain can warp reality to his whim -- that's how he does what he does:
http://i.imgur.com/s5EeEfW.jpg

The Fury eventually beat/killed Jaspers after a long battle by taking him to un-space -- a place completely devoid of any matter/reality for Jaspers to manipulate(this 'un-space' was in fact universe-238 post-nullification, but that's neither here nor there)... Fury then destroyed MJJ's brain, which subsequently perma-killed him:
http://i.imgur.com/C2OVlrb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RVZgiv9.jpg

Point being: without 'clay' to 'mold', Jaspers is effectively powerless -- he cannot create ex nihilo. That's his only real weakness.


*And to reiterate: I am not saying that Franklin *could* beat MJJ in a similar fashion -- just that it might be *possible* if the circumstances were right.

DeadpoolXXX
fair enough.

WHere does legion stand in all of this?

Glorificus
Mad Jim Jaspers.

Close toss up between Legion and Franklin for No. 2 though.

operator616
Legion > MJJ > Franklin.

backup
True Legion was universal or multiversal?

Galan007
Multiversal.

But that doesn't matter here, as the combatants are confined to universal. It's all about whose warp is more potent.

backup
I see, thanks Galan. I think that MJJ's warp is more potent.

operator616
Legion could just stand outside the multiverse (where Jaspers is powerless) and manipulate it from there like he did at the end of X-Men Legacy. He could go on to destroy every reality in the multiverse until nothing is left except the void rendering MJJ's powers useless.

Galan007
I just can't see Legion affecting MJJ within his own warp; and I certainly can't see him destroying said warp from the outside. If Legion is going to win, he's got to remove MJJ from the inside out -- like Fury did. Imo.

operator616
Why can't he destroy it from the outside?

Galan007
Merlyn's comment heavily alluded to such, imo:
http://i.imgur.com/cSWHPp0.jpg
"His counterpart could at least be halted, even if it meant destroy his entire continuum... This one is not so easily containable."

*He's comparing 238 MJJ to 616 MJJ there.

operator616
It just means that 616 MJJ could survive universal nullification, but once he's inside the void he's screwed.

Galan007
He's definitely weakened significantly in a void(as I've pointed out), but you have to get him there first... Which is potentially problematic.

But even if Legion were able to take this fight to a void, he still has to incapacitate MJJ faster than MJJ incapacitates him(remember, even though MJJ wouldn't have reality surrounding him to manipulate, warping Legion himself is still an option.)

So I guess this is essentially a quick-draw scenario in the end... Unless you're of the opinion that Legion is immune to MJJ's warp..? srug

operator616
How would MJJ be able to warp Legion in the void? He seemed pretty helpless against the fury there after all, who also fried his brain with casual slowness to boot.

Galan007
^ Because Fury had adapted and became hyper-resistant to MJJ's warp. This was mentioned a few different times:
http://i.imgur.com/5vSPvRK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/L0h5g9S.jpg

operator616
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Because Fury had adapted and became hyper-resistant to MJJ's warp. This was mentioned a few different times:
http://i.imgur.com/5vSPvRK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/L0h5g9S.jpg

It's been a while since i read the story, and i dont have access to it right now, but from what i remember the fury was adapting to MJJ throughout their entire fight until it transported MJJ to unspace where it was able to easily fry his brain. That to me implies that his reality warping powers simply do not work in the void.

Galan007
I just reread the battle, and the heavy implication is that Fury had become all but immune to MJJ's warping abilities -- that's why Jaspers resorted to physical attacks and such during their battle, I'd wager. So when Fury 'ported them to un-space, Jaspers was left with no other material to readily warp(and he was clearly surprised by this tactic -- certainly didn't expect it, and logically may not have even know he had such a weakness in the first place)... Then he gets his brain fried.

Bios support the notion that Fury was immune to MJJ's warp:
http://i.imgur.com/YCm7dKs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J7ocGRT.jpg

operator616
The bios are referring to Fury's adaption powers. However the point is, was there any proof that Fury was completely immune to Jaspers' powers at the end of their fight (when they were in the void)? Because that's the deciding factor here. We know that the fury was able to adapt to MJJ but did it reach the point where it was completely immune (which enabled it to kill MJJ) or was it the fact that Jaspers' powers do not work in the void? (i recall the handbook actually mentioning that he is powerless in the void but i have to recheck). I personally interpreted it as the latter.

Galan007
I am confident that Fury was immune to his warp, yes. The battle itself is indicative of such, and the bios support it. That's why MJJ stopped trying to directly warp Fury, and resorted to physically brawling with it instead -- hyper-adaption was Fury's thing. thumb up

operator616
If MJJ's powers did indeed work in the void, Fury wouldn't have resorted to bfring MJJ into the void, it would have dealt with MJJ inside the reality they were battling in. And the reason it was able to kill him is literally attributed to MJJ unable to use his powers there. To me the implication was quite clear that MJJ's powers are useless in the void even against the opponent.

Galan007
The answer is simple: Fury knew it was immune to MJJ's warp, and also knew MJJ could not create ex nihilo. Thus it deduced that Jaspers would be entirely powerless in un-space(which, again, was merely the void left over from the nullification of universe-238.) That's why Jaspers was powerless in un-space: no clay to mold whatsoever... Not even Fury was susceptible to his influence at that point.

Now, had someone been present that wasn't immune to his warp(which is pretty much ANYONE not named "Fury"wink, Jaspers obviously could have manipulated him/her without issue... But that clearly was not the case.

It's not as though un-space emits some sort of 'dampening field' that renders MJJ powerless or w/e. It just represents a place where his powers simply cannot work, because it's just that: a blank slate with no reality to manipulate. Nothing special about it at all.

"Id"
Originally posted by Galan007
Multiversal.

But that doesn't matter here, as the combatants are confined to universal. It's all about whose warp is more potent.
What do you mean the combatants are confined to universal?

Galan007
Per OP stips, the scope of the combatants is restricted to universe-level.

"Id"

Galan007
Interesting.

So you think Franklin is a better all-around reality manipulator than MJJ? And is there any particular reason you have Legion above them in that regard?

"Id"
Originally posted by Galan007
Interesting.

So you think Franklin is a better all-around reality manipulator than MJJ? And is there any particular reason you have Legion above them in that regard?

MJJ can manipulate matter, and is all powerful within his warp.

Same with Franklin with the added bonus of being all powerful onto himself and creating something from nothing.

Legion can do what Franklin and Jaspers does, on top of being able to manipulate probability and merge timelines to create a new outcome.

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