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i noticed there were no black people in the movies..could it be that they simply didnt exist in middle earth or it is just what i'm thinking?

no, you're exagerating. Didn't even think about it before.I'm sure it's not of racial reasons
urm..the orcs were black

well it's not the makers in the film anyways, it is after all the book that describes how the creatures look. Things were different when Tolkien wrote the book, I doubt he did it willingly, more unconciously, cause of how society was back then.

Yes, Tolkien was a product of his time. Remember he was creating a specifically ENGLISH mythology and so therefore all the central heroes had to be fine, upstanding white people, as did their culture. Heck, the Rohirrim are positively Aryan! To make things worse, Asians and black people DO exist in Middle-Earth and are all bad guys- the Asians are the evil slanty-eyed Easterlings and the blacks are the primitive and savage Southrons.

Myself and my friends make Nazi jokes about Tolkien all the time but it is just jest. He was not being conciously racist and like I say, he reflected the times that he wrote in. In Tolkien's defence he was a FIERCE critic of anti-semitism and in a time it was taking strong hold in English universities he took time to demolish such views as best he could in debating societies.

Yeah, as Ush says, it was the way of the times. You read any other book from |Tolkiens time, the only coloured people featured are baddies...

Well you have to look at Geography not race when looking at Middle earth. I think Tolkien was ahead of his time in respects to race. remember when Faramir (or was it Sam, the movie has me all mixed up)was looking at the dead southerner wondering what kind of person he was, was he really evil or just mislead or threatened. what i mean by geography was that Sauron held sway over the east and the south. the west was the only place he was really threatened from and they happened to be white. now that probably wasnt chance that the west was white since as Ush said he was creating a mythology for England, but i dont think he meant for the easterlings and southerners to be evil, just under Saurons influence.

I don't think Tolkien was racist. He used other races too, like elves and dwarves. In the beginning they don't see eye to eye but in TTT you see Legolas defend Gimli when they first meet the Rohirrim. It shows that different races can work together. If there are beings superior than humans it would be elves, they make people feel insignificant.

What if an African author wrote a book using only coloured characters, would we feel discriminated? I guess not. As mentioned before, Lotr is an epic before our time, things were different then

Good point! Could be Tolkien was trying to illustrate how races forget their differences and unite, to face the real evil

great analyses guys, very matured and straight forward. i suppose it's all about the races coming together to end the troubles, a remedy we need for todays world. wonder why we all can't live in harmony, no matter our race or color..and i got interested in this 'cause i'm black, and i thought we'd fit in a great mythologycal story. luv y'all!

I think we do ok! not perfect but def better. I mean fro exemple , when i see black guy i dont assume is bad! i dont think that happens anymore, atleast not here. when i 'look around' i see all kinds of people and it's all good! lol

a generation who doesn't see colour

there has been stuff said about tolkien and his evil guys,
they live in their BLACK towers and have the BLACK ringwraiths and their BLACK seeing stones with thier DARK lord, but i think it's more to do with evilness being accossiated with darkness rather than skin colour......if u get what i'm saying.

yeh

absolutley. when authors and directors want to play on peoples fears the obviously use things that people are affraid of. it isnt skin color people are affraid of but darkness. like who wasnt affraid of the dark when they were little, so what better to have a dark wringraith creeping out of the shadows. it wouldnt be quit as scary if they were robbed in white or flourescent colors and had absolutley no association with that fear of the dark every one once had.

I have nightmares about those ringwraiths! no s**t

I think the race question has been well answered by most above, and I agree. Like someone said, the books were written as an intentional mythology for England where by simply fact, the original inhabitants were undoubtedly white in skin colour. On a similar vain, if Nordic myths (where Tolkien gathered his main influences) like the Vinland sagas (for example) were to be told in film, then obviously the actors would need to be white also.

if I may (well I,m going to anyway) to quote terry pratchets disc world novels
the denizens of middle earth where so consurned with speciesism
that mere racsism didn,t get a look in.
i don,t see a rasist problem here at all.but if you look at anything hard you will see what you are looking for. even if it,s not there, because it,s inside the person looking about which i feel sad
I live in manchester and rasism is not an issue with me or anyone i know if it was i would not want to know them...
i like LOTR,s for what it is, a very good book, please don,t spoil things by implying it is anything else,

the above means i am smoking as always but am sad.........

No no... :P

The books clearly state there are black people in the world, Tolkein was not a racist, he just simply had the black people be from the south...

These people so happend to be scared into fighting for Sauron (the southrons), now they WERE black, many people I talk to disagree for some reason then I have to whip out the book and show that the Southrons were dark skinned folk...

I think if anything, the movie makers could NOT show this...after all in the movie the southrons were white with dark eye-liner and black face masks...

This is of course because what would people think if the only black people in the movie are fighting for evil and getting their butts kicked by a bunch of white guys?

People just aren't smart enough to handle that...it wasn't a product of the times but location.

It was supposed to be European myth (england specifically), and so geographically the south was where the blacks were...and the south consequently was in control of Sauron.

ok sorry if what i say has been sed b4 but i didnt bother to read previous posts. anyway heres my take on it:

1=tolkien wrote a mythology for england. that means everything in his worlds is an ancient europe of sorts, and u wouldnt expect it to b full of africans asians native americans etc. duh!

2= tolkien did include blacks (the haradrim who rode the elephants in rotk) and what seemed like tribal asians (ghan buri ghan) in the books, as people from far away lands with minor roles in the war of the ring. ghan buri ghan was left out cus he seemed out of place, and i personally think he sucked as a character and in his unneeded role (tolkien cuda easily left im out). the haradrim havent appeared yet, true, but they may in the rotk battles.

3= the makers of the film tried to be racially diverse by hiring many maori (native new zealanders) for the parts that wouldnt have faces shown up close. (i.e. the uruk hai with their helmets and some of the elves in the back battle lines). they werent being racist, cus it woulda looked weird to have a tanned person with slightly asian features in a european "myth" story.

p.s. the word isnt racial. its racist.

i like what both geldorn and ush said up there, i think that they both have really good points, i definetly don't think that tolkien was a racsist, for their reasons, they say it better than i would

I think that this accusation is stupid, there probably were black ppl in the movie but ,most ppl were in costume anyway, and does it matter? jrr tolkien focused on the fellowship not background people walking aroun Bree inn or something

hmmmmmm.....i think that its unfair to call tolkien racist to much
He was from a different time and people weren't so much into racial and gender correctness.

And yeah LOTR and middle earth was based on English mythology
The reference to the black riders, dark lord and black gates have nothing to with race( as a coloured person i can sence negative racial undertones)

Mythology across the world has always put black and dark shades with gloom, fear and mystery. It had nothing to do with race, that i believe
people who say otherwise may be tooooooo sensitive.

Peter Jackson merely went with the book for the movie cast......eg Rohan and Gondor peoples were close to nordic races, so there was no way that a coloured person could have been used as one of the actors. Things like that people should consider before they open their mouths and start kicking a fuss.

hi all,
i think i've read the most intelligent reviews in this forum about the racist stuff and i must commend everyone who has put in a thing or two. yeah i started this thread, all because i wanted to know what people's views are about the subject, not that i'm accusing tolkien of being a racist.
yeah your guess is right, i'm black but not bothered that there are no black people in the movie..i have overheard people bring up the subject around me which iu had fought vehemently, and so i wanted to know the view of others about it. lotr is a great movie and i really enjoyed your views about the issue..it shows how mature people in this forum are and thats really intersting. feel free to add any more in this thread...i always lok forward to your replies...

mature? dude i aint mature and u were just screwin wit peeps testin us like that. dont do that shit. and its racist not racial.

There are even black people living in Gondor;
they just didnt show them yet in the movie.

nice to know you're not mature pink..it's pretty obvious and thanks for the correction.....but really i had to draw attention to those who thought tolkien was a racist by reading these reviews..i wasnt messing with you guys......

Tolkein wasn't racist at all, you need only dig up the stuff he said about such subject matters...as hitler, since the book the hobbit did seem to poke fun at Jews, requested that such a racial view be implimented in a German print, and Tolkein came down on him so well, it gives hope that there is indeed decency in the world.

Remember too that Tolkien believed that light shined the brightest when it is at its darkest hour. Black is just the representation of evil not race.. look at all 4 Darths from Star Wars.

its also sexist but thats just because thats how the world was when it was written

yeah good oint though..

I think that tolkien was neither racist nor sexist, this is because of the many points exa has shown and everyone else about racism and he couldn't have been sexist because he made the most powerful elves women and eowyn was happy to fight.

a lot of people here REALLY need to READ all the posts before posting....you just end up making yourselves look bad.. just a heads up.

this is not directed at any one person....just please read before posting...

y-e-a-h you do that

lol i learn't to do that a long time ago..............but when there is over 40 posts it gets kinda tiring

yeah i mean its hard to read them all and it just means were either agreeing to what theve said or letting people in on our thoughts

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