Triggered: Stories to make you mad.

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Surtur

vansonbee
#PooLivesMatter

I'm just glad racism can be link to poop in this generation.

cdtm
So a cavalier attitude about a serious health issue?

He has a ways to go to outdo Christie. thumb down

Emperordmb
Every time I lower the bar of what to expect from these ideologues they manage to keep hitting beneath it.

Nibedicus
I guess it's his way of saying civil-rights activists = poop?

jaden101
Bit suspect that there isn't any actual quotes from him.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Every time I lower the bar of what to expect from these ideologues they manage to keep hitting beneath it.
thumb up

laughing out loud

Welcome to the realm of "idiocracy."

Surtur
Originally posted by jaden101
Bit suspect that there isn't any actual quotes from him.

It's possible the Seattle Times just really has it out for him.

I truly hope this paper decided Larry needed a lesson taught to him and just made this up. Don't know why they are beefing or what lesson he needed to learn, but I'd prefer it over this idiocy.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Every time I lower the bar of what to expect from these ideologues they manage to keep hitting beneath it.

I'd say the city should decide not to use the hoses. Just get some rags, give them to Larry, point him to the sidewalks, and say "earn your next paycheck".

Just make sure the rags aren't white so he doesn't think it's a demonstration of white power.

Surtur

BackFire
If you really want to be cute, here, you could say that the councilman is racist because he's comparing civil rights activists to pieces of poo.

Surtur
Originally posted by BackFire
If you really want to be cute, here, you could say that the councilman is racist because he's comparing civil rights activists to pieces of poo.

This guy was at the March On Washington:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Mr_hankey_the_xmas_poo.jpg

You can wash away the poop, but you can never wash away the freedom.

Surtur
Is the insanity going to end anytime soon?

Entire police department may undergo trans sensitivity training after misgendering citizen

Emperordmb
Ooh nice is this the new SJW crazy bullshit thread?

Also that's a horrible waste of taxpayer money, and so is paying for police officers to be indoctrinated.

Sable
Its a little disturbing when cities like Seattle and more notably SF and interactive map that tracks human feces because these cities now allow public urination and dumping.

http://mochimachine.org/wasteland/

cdtm
Originally posted by Surtur
Is the insanity going to end anytime soon?

Entire police department may undergo trans sensitivity training after misgendering citizen

*Sigh*

Pretty much how our legal system works, unfortunately. Guy complains/sues, city overreacts to cover their asses.

Because if they don't, there could be a payout in the future. You ain't winning no money in a lawsuit from this city, I'm stealing that money for a new house.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ooh nice is this the new SJW crazy bullshit thread?

Also that's a horrible waste of taxpayer money, and so is paying for police officers to be indoctrinated. Lol, what are they being indoctrinated into here DMB? A basic respect and understanding for trans people? Sounds dystopian. sad

Surtur
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Ooh nice is this the new SJW crazy bullshit thread?

Also that's a horrible waste of taxpayer money, and so is paying for police officers to be indoctrinated.

Indeed, and why would we even train our police officers to indulge the mentally ill? Seems yet another task they have. They need to be: cops, psychiatrists, marriage counselors, utter experts of body language, masters of hand to hand combat, and telepathic. What else do cops need to be?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, and why would we even train our police officers to indulge the mentally ill?Oh DMB, look at the folk you've lumped yourself in with. laughing out loud

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, what are they being indoctrinated into here DMB? A basic respect and understanding for trans people? Sounds dystopian. sad
If that was all that training consisted of, I would be fine with that, aside from the fact that it can be adequately addressed in a conversation, perhaps a lengthy announcement from a superior, so the usage of taxpayer money for this training isn't the best use of money. But again if that was all I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Given how these training courses usually go, they're probably going to be indoctrinated into bullshit like "gender is completely disconnected from sex" "there's more than two genders and you can be agender, genderfluid, gender neutrois" and all that other made up bullshit as well as the use of fake pronouns like Xe, Zir, Zim, etc. this ideological horseshit should not be imposed on our society with taxpayer money.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh DMB, look at the folk you've lumped yourself in with. laughing out loud
Pretty pathetic that you think you can guilt me out of my position by implicating me in collective guilt for something not even said by me.

Bashar Teg
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/images/AAABecca/neonazirallyprotestmontana.jpg

yellow yankee cap guy was just there to protest high taxes. #CollectiveGuiltTactics

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
If that was all that training consisted of, I would be fine with that, aside from the fact that it can be adequately addressed in a conversation, perhaps a lengthy announcement from a superior, so the usage of taxpayer money for this training isn't the best use of money. But again if that was all I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Given how these training courses usually go, they're probably going to be indoctrinated into bullshit like "gender is completely disconnected from sex" "there's more than two genders and you can be agender, genderfluid, gender neutrois" and all that other made up bullshit as well as the use of fake pronouns like Xe, Zir, Zim, etc. this ideological horseshit should not be imposed on our society with taxpayer money.Yeah... did you read the article?
So they are accessing a pre-existing resource that consists of 13-minutes of footage. And look at this, the article even provided the video in question:
gfGPx4xJHvMNow watch that video and tell me what about it offends you, aside from the acting. sick

Lol. Not trying to guilt you out of anything bro, just acknowledging that old adage: birds of a feather, flock together. sad

Now, do you plan on correcting your pal or was he spot on?

MythLord
Do... do they think the poop represents black protestors? That's even more freaking racist!

Surtur
Originally posted by MythLord
Do... do they think the poop represents black protestors? That's even more freaking racist!

I think he feels people are going to see a hose and be so triggered they have flashbacks to when cops were using the hoses against black people.

The only question that remains is why this councilman thinks Seattle is full of crazy people. Only a crazy person would see shit getting cleaned off the sidewalk and somehow get offended at the "racism" of it all.

It boggles the mind...out of all the ways one could seek victimhood status this guy chose hoses that would be used to spray poop and pee off the side walk.

Surtur

Surtur

Surtur
Lol..

Minnesota Town Blocks Satanic Memorial in Veterans Park, Will Remove Christian Monuments Too

It was gonna be a "free speech zone" until they didn't like what was being put up.

socool8520
^ Well,, at least they are tearing down the other statues. Just to be fair. lol

Surtur
Originally posted by socool8520
^ Well,, at least they are tearing down the other statues. Just to be fair. lol

Yeah but it just seems like they put up this zone and had this other BS, but then a religion they do not like shows up and suddenly it is "yeah, this isn't a good idea".

People do not believe in free speech if they just want things they agree with around them.

socool8520
It's unfortunate but maybe one day everyone can be accepted.

Surtur

Bashar Teg
lol whats that got to do with the topic? poor surt needs a new circlejerk blog thread since the mods killed the others.

Robtard
Asking for a rename to: "Things Which #Trigger Surtur"

That way all these rants can be contained to a single thread.

Surtur
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
lol whats that got to do with the topic? poor surt needs a new circlejerk blog thread since the mods killed the others.

When you came into the Trump topic to whine I hadn't responded to the acid attacks topic...what did that have to do with the topic?

I can't wait for the "it's different" excuse.

EDIT: I'm out for the night, I look forward to reading your excuse tomorrow. Make it an entertaining one thumb up

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Asking for a rename to: "Things Which #Trigger Surtur"

That way all these rants can be contained to a single thread.

To be fair, "Stupid Bullshit Going down in America" would be a much more fitting title. Actually no. "Stupid Bullshit Going down in the world". Why limit it to America? The UK has definitely been getting in on this action, it would be rude to exclude them.

Robtard
http://i65.tinypic.com/20sye06.gif

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, what are they being indoctrinated into here DMB? A basic respect and understanding for trans people? Sounds dystopian. sad It does sorta sound dystopian, to me. Then again, I am imagining a bunch of cops sitting in a room watching some slideshow that is explaining in detail the exact manner, tone and language (with pronouns being the main focal point) in which to deal with the 70 different genders of disease ridden prostitutes that they are likely to encounter while on patrol.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by MythLord
Do... do they think the poop represents black protestors? That's even more freaking racist! No, I think that the article was pretty clear that they just think high-pressure water hoses represent a very effective yet unseemly way to repel blacks.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
It does sorta sound dystopian, to me. Then again, I am imagining a bunch of cops sitting in a room watching some slideshow that is explaining in detail the exact manner, tone and language (with pronouns being the main focal point) in which to deal with the 70 different genders of disease ridden prostitutes that they are likely to encounter while on patrol. Well that's how it works isn't it? You dream up a narrative then act accordingly. sad

But yeah, trans folk are all disease ridden prostitutes, stay classy. thumb up

Afro Cheese
Well, I was kind of just trying to be funny. I don't mind the trans-folk for the most part, I just think jumping from 2 genders to 70 is a bit much. I think we should settle on 5 and call it a day.

Basically, I think that for the most part the male/female dichotomy accurately represents human beings. But of course you get males who feel female, females who feel male, etc. So that leaves you with 4 so far. M, F, MtF, and FtM. So where does the 5th one fit in, you might ask?

Well those are what I would call your wildcards. That's for the difficult types that refuse to fall into a coherent category. You know, the types like "non-binary masculine of center gender queer." Those are your wildcards. Their symbol, rather than a letter or series of letters, is simply *.

Surtur
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
No, I think that the article was pretty clear that they just think high-pressure water hoses represent a very effective yet unseemly way to repel blacks.

Indeed, but we are talking about using the hoses to clean up shit. A person is batshit crazy if they find it racist.

Yet, I'm guessing the guy remains on the council. In fact, I"m guessing he'd say it's racism if people tried to remove him over this.

Surtur
Lol...take the vagina challenge. Yep, it's a real thing Vagisil is doing, you video tape yourself shouting the word "vagina" at people. I'm serious.

http://vagisil.com/vagina-challenge/

laughing

Bashar Teg
how is this relevant to the topic of "Seattle Councilman objects to hosing off poop covered sidewalks due to racism"

Surtur
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
how is this relevant to the topic of "Seattle Councilman objects to hosing off poop covered sidewalks due to racism"

It's not relevant at all. Sorta like me responding to the acid attack thread wasn't a relevant thing to be brought up in the Trump thread.

I just didn't feel this deserved it's own topic. If it needs to be deleted by the mods I understand.

Bashar Teg
*neglects to pick up after his dog*

"if the city wants to clean that up, i understand."

Surtur
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
*neglects to pick up after his dog*

"if the city wants to clean that up, i understand."

Lol you realize you are complaining over something that you have done. Something I just showed yesterday that you did. I don't see the point.

Why not just comment on what was posted?

Bashar Teg
actually my comment was way more on-topic than yours. thumb up

Surtur
In other news Bill Nye has been nominated for an Emmy. Specifically, it's one episode that is nominated. And yes lol, it is the episode with this:

6m53lNTdyPg

Robtard
Just curious, have you always been anti Bill Nye or was it a specific event? If so, what was said event?

This reason I ask, you've attacked Bill Nye in the past.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Just curious, have you always been anti Bill Nye or was it a specific event? If so, what was said event?

This reason I ask, you've attacked Bill Nye in the past.

Because he's viewed as a credible scientist who spews bullshit. He was not always like this, back in the 90s he was better, but received less attention. Now he embraces all this stupid stuff. In the episode he literally talks about the "science of feelings".

But I less "attacked" him and more just laughed at the awful video he put out, and how it contradicts an episode about sex/biology from the 90s.

So I mean, if his goal was to make more money and stuff, yeah I can see why he is doing what he is doing. Embracing the nonsense we are dealing with now.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
*neglects to pick up after his dog*

"if the city wants to clean that up, i understand."
The city clearly doesn't want to though... that's kinda the point of this topic

Bashar Teg
one batshit councilman = "the city"? okay.

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
Because he's viewed as a credible scientist who spews bullshit. He was not always like this, back in the 90s he was better, but received less attention. Now he embraces all this stupid stuff. In the episode he literally talks about the "science of feelings".

But I less "attacked" him and more just laughed at the awful video he put out, and how it contradicts an episode about sex/biology from the 90s.

So I mean, if his goal was to make more money and stuff, yeah I can see why he is doing what he is doing. Embracing the nonsense we are dealing with now. Can you elaborate on "all the stupid stuff"?

I don't really watch Bil Nye, but I do imagine there is in fact a science behind feelings. Being our brains are bio-chemical and bio-electrical and our feelings (happiness, anger, sadness etc) originate there.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Can you elaborate on "all the stupid stuff"?

I don't really watch Bil Nye, but I do imagine there is in fact a science behind feelings. Being our brains are bio-chemical and bio-electrical and our feelings (happiness, anger, sadness etc) originate there.

The transgender stuff is what I mean. It contradicts episodes he did in the 90s about biology. And when he talked about the science of "feelings" he was not talking about it in the way you are saying lol. That would make sense. He could talk about chemicals like oxytocin and all that, but that was not what he meant. I watched the entire episode.

In the past he seemed more anti-bullshit, and now he isn't. He slapped down the idea of astrology in like 60 seconds. He debated religious people who didn't believe in evolution. But now he is...well, you saw the video lol. He also just...doesn't argue very well in favor of climate change. But then he's not actually a scientist IIRC.

Flyattractor
They should go get the GOLD Toilet of America out of that Museum and put it on this sidewalk.

Funny how Leftists always see Shit, piss and other nasty bodily fluids as "art".

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
The transgender stuff is what I mean. It contradicts episodes he did in the 90s about biology. And when he talked about the science of "feelings" he was not talking about it in the way you are saying lol. That would make sense. He could talk about chemicals like oxytocin and all that, but that was not what he meant. I watched the entire episode.

In the past he seemed more anti-bullshit, and now he isn't. He slapped down the idea of astrology in like 60 seconds. He debated religious people who didn't believe in evolution. But now he is...well, you saw the video lol. He also just...doesn't argue very well in favor of climate change. But then he's not actually a scientist IIRC.

Not seen it, but do you think it's possible that as new knowledge becomes available with time/research that someone's previously held belief can change? Especially with a topic like biology.

Flyattractor
That is what SCIENCE does... sadly all to often Real Science gets CLOUDED with Political Beliefs.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Not seen it, but do you think it's possible that as new knowledge becomes available with time/research that someone's previously held belief can change? Especially with a topic like biology.

Indeed it can change if actual scientific studies come out to show a previous theory was wrong. This has not happened.

Surtur

Surtur

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed it can change if actual scientific studies come out to show a previous theory was wrong. This has not happened.

Are you sure?

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Are you sure?

Yes.

Also think about it for a second, have you ever heard any bonafide scientific proof? That proof could shut down any transgender debate. It just doesn't exist. No peer reviewed scientifc study has said this shit is accurate. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

It's a mental illness. The suicide rates pre and post transition speak volumes. 40%. Now a so called scientist is peddling this and being nominated for an award for it, an award show millions of people will watch.

Beniboybling
>there is no absolute proof on transgenderism
>makes an absolute claim about transgenderism

What a moron. sad

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
Yes.

Also think about it for a second, have you ever heard any bonafide scientific proof? That proof could shut down any transgender debate. It just doesn't exist. No peer reviewed scientifc study has said this shit is accurate. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

It's a mental illness. The suicide rates pre and post transition speak volumes. 40%. Now a so called scientist is peddling this and being nominated for an award for it, an award show millions of people will watch.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you know what your grip is other than having a negative view of transgender people and the transgender community because they're different.

Also, if "there's no proof", then in turn how you can say with absolute fact it's a "mental illness"? That sword cuts both ways. (edit: Beni beat me to the point there) But one could argue being seen as mental patient and largely looked down upon by society could/would affect a person's self-image to the point they consider suicide because they're different than what society calls normal. Do you think if society viewed you as a turd day in and day out, it wouldn't in time affect you mentally?

Just look at your attitude towards transgender people. Do you honestly think that is conducive to transgender people being happy? Now multiply that attitude by a factor of 'society wide'. See a possible problem?

Surtur
Except in society, being mean to a transgender will get you ridiculed. I don't think it's wrong to call a mental illness a mental illness.

You are literally imagining yourself to be something you are not. Rob, if I imagine I'm Superman, am I mentally ill? No wait, I can imagine whatever I want. But if I demand society recognize me as Superman, I'm crossing a line, yes?

If not, *you* conform to me, then. You treat me as I demand, yes?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Except in society, being mean to a transgender will get you ridiculed.

In large parts of the country, being cruel to transgender people gets you elected to public office.




Originally posted by Surtur
I don't think it's wrong to call a mental illness a mental illness.

Where did you earn you psychology degree? Did you get it at your own pace?

Surtur
Hey Adam by all means, show concrete scientific proof of the stuff. I'll then bow to your superior knowledge.

I'm not even joking. If there is valid proof I need to change my views.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Hey Adam by all means, show concrete scientific proof of the stuff. I'll then bow to your superior knowledge.

I'm not even joking. If there is valid proof I need to change my views.

Why do you not look up the official position of any of the organizations of professional psychiatrists?

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
Except in society, being mean to a transgender will get you ridiculed.

I don't think it's wrong to call a mental illness a mental illness.

You are literally imagining yourself to be something you are not. Rob, if I imagine I'm Superman, am I mentally ill? No wait, I can imagine whatever I want. But if I demand society recognize me as Superman, I'm crossing a line, yes?

If not, *you* conform to me, then. You treat me as I demand, yes?

Yet transgender people largely get shat on. eg You right now.

Agreed. What is your proof that transgender people are suffering form a real mental illness?

Faulty analogy. We know Superman is a fictional alien character, so imagining yourself to be Superman is silly, unless you're a child playing. Now the mind and how it works is both real and more complex than "I want to be Superman".

Surtur
Originally posted by Emperordmb
If that was all that training consisted of, I would be fine with that, aside from the fact that it can be adequately addressed in a conversation, perhaps a lengthy announcement from a superior, so the usage of taxpayer money for this training isn't the best use of money. But again if that was all I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Given how these training courses usually go, they're probably going to be indoctrinated into bullshit like "gender is completely disconnected from sex" "there's more than two genders and you can be agender, genderfluid, gender neutrois" and all that other made up bullshit as well as the use of fake pronouns like Xe, Zir, Zim, etc. this ideological horseshit should not be imposed on our society with taxpayer money.

Pretty pathetic that you think you can guilt me out of my position by implicating me in collective guilt for something not even said by me.

Do you disagree with the quote of me he posted? Just curious. I just think cops are expected to essentially be a jack of all trades. But that is not the training they get.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
Yet transgender people largely get shat on. eg You right now.

Agreed. What is your proof that transgender people are suffering form a real mental illness?

Faulty analogy. We know Superman is a fictional alien character, so imagining yourself to be Superman is silly, unless you're a child playing. Now the mind and how it works is both real and more complex than "I want to be Superman".

Do we not also know people born with dicks are men?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Do we not also know people born with dicks are men?

People who are born with penises can be male or intersex.

Most often, they are also men, but sometimes they are women, have a non-binary gender, or no gender at all.

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
Do we not also know people born with dicks are men?

How is this your proof of a mental illness?

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
How is this your proof of a mental illness?

I was going by the argument you presented. That we KNOW Superman isn't real. We also know if you have a dick you aren't female, no matter what your feelings tell you.

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
People who are born with penises can be male or intersex.

Most often, they are also men, but sometimes they are women, have a non-binary gender, or no gender at all.

Right, and Adam, are most transgender intersex?

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
I was going by the argument you presented. That we KNOW Superman isn't real. We also know if you have a dick you aren't female, no matter what your feelings tell you.

You're comparing the complexities of people and the human mind to a fictional alien character. Think about that for a moment.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Right, and Adam, are most transgender intersex?

Intersex people can have ambiguous genitals that are neither male or female, or they can have both male and female genitals.

Since they are not one sex or another, they often do not identify as one gender or another.

However, that is different than being transgender.

Transgender people identify as a gender that does not correspond to their sex at birth.

Intersex people do not have a specific sex for a gender to correspond to, so they cannot be transgender.

Beniboybling
Reposting in the right place:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
You're comparing the complexities of people and the human mind to a fictional alien character. Think about that for a moment.

If people are so complex, why can't they believe they are an alien?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
Do we not also know people born with dicks are men? Sex and gender aren't the same thing broski, people who are transgender are aware of what sex they are, but that doesn't mean they identify with the corresponding gender, which is a mental rather than physical construct.

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Intersex people can have ambiguous genitals that are neither male or female, or they can have both male and female genitals.

Since they are not one sex or another, they often do not identify as one gender or another.

However, that is different than being transgender.

Transgender people identify as a gender that does not correspond to their sex at birth.

Intersex people do not have a specific sex for a gender to correspond to, so they cannot be transgender.

Intersex people are super rare though, right? I mean an intersex person is the closest one can come to a legitimate question of what gender they are.

Surtur
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sex and gender aren't the same thing broski, people who are transgender are aware of what sex they are, but that doesn't mean they identify with the corresponding gender.

Is this not denying reality? You have a dick you're a man.

How can your thoughts transform your gender?

Can I identify as a different race, Beni? If not, why not?

Beniboybling
Did you read what I just said? Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex pertains to your physical anatomy, from the shape of your genitalia down to your the nature of your chromosomes. Gender refers to the masculine and feminine identities that pertain to each sex, the characteristics that define men and women beyond their bodies. One is physical, which your average trans person does not deny, the other is mental, and therefore by nature, intangible and ambiguous. Some people are more feminine than others, some people are more masculine than others, and these traits don't respect physical boundaries.

This is not hard to understand Surt, I'm sure you can grasp that what makes you man involves more than your little trunk. sad

Surtur
I do agree Beni, it is mental. smile

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Intersex people are super rare though, right? I mean an intersex person is the closest one can come to a legitimate question of what gender they are.

Intersex births are more common than people think: about 1 in 150,000. Intersex people have as strong a sense of their gender as other people do. The problem is that you are conflating sex with gender. Transgender people know what sex they are. They are not confused about their assigned gender, they reject it.

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Intersex births are more common than people think: about 1 in 150,000. Intersex people have as strong a sense of their gender as other people do. The problem is that you are conflating sex with gender. Transgender people know what sex they are. They are not confused about their assigned gender, they reject it.

So they reject reality. Why can't I? Can't I be Asian if I want? Or a billionaire? If my feelings truly feel it?

Explain why gender gets a pass, but the other stuff wouldn't. Why can't a person be a different race? Or just a completely different person all together.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
I do agree Beni, it is mental. smile Yes, and whatever doesn't fit your chosen standards is a de facto disorder. smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
So they reject reality. Why can't I? Can't I be Asian if I want? Or a billionaire? If my feelings truly feel it?

Explain why gender gets a pass, but the other stuff wouldn't. Why can't a person be a different race? Or just a completely different person all together. because gender is made up of your fee fees you clown. sad

Surtur
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, and whatever doesn't fit your chosen standards is a de facto disorder. smile

You are right, a 40% suicide rate isn't a mental disorder. Just blame society, it's easier and fits your narrative better smile

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
So they reject reality. Why can't I? Can't I be Asian if I want? Or a billionaire? If my feelings truly feel it?

Explain why gender gets a pass, but the other stuff wouldn't. Why can't a person be a different race? Or just a completely different person all together.

Is your experience of your gender a reality? Can you prove it? What makes your experience of your gender legitimate and the experience of another person of their gender illegitimate?

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Is your experience of your gender a reality? Can you prove it? What makes your experience of your gender legitimate and the experience of another person of their gender illegitimate?

So again, if I feel I'm experiencing a different race than I am...? Affirmative action will then apply to me, if I can prove I truly feel that way?

It's an all or nothing thing, see. If you can imagine yourself as a different gender, you can imagine a different race, class, etc. There is no limit and no, you don't get to say there is. If we go with feelings over reality it's an all out thing.

Tell me you agree that it's an all out thing. You do, right? Don't spin bullshit to excuse why it's not.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
You are right, a 40% suicide rate isn't a mental disorder. Just blame society, it's easier and fits your narrative better smile Or I could just explain the facts, as I did, and watch you flounder about in an attempt to ignore them. sad

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
So again, if I feel I'm experiencing a different race than I am...? Affirmative action will then apply to me, if I can prove I truly feel that way?

It's an all or nothing thing, see. If you can imagine yourself as a different gender, you can imagine a different race, class, etc. There is no limit and no, you don't get to say there is. If we go with feelings over reality it's an all out thing.

What benefits do you think transgender people receive that you do not?

Surtur
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Or I could just explain the facts, as I did, and watch you flounder about in an attempt to ignore them. sad

Where did you explain facts? Blaming society ain't a fact.

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
What benefits do you think transgender people receive that you do not?

Well Adam, Robtard said it's rude to answer a question with questions.

Did you just contradict him? Or will you hurt me and say you're being rude sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
Where did you explain facts? Blaming society ain't a fact. Yeah sure, I guess I'll just keep spamming my response until you acknowledge it. sick

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself. Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you read what I just said? Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex pertains to your physical anatomy, from the shape of your genitalia down to your the nature of your chromosomes. Gender refers to the masculine and feminine identities that pertain to each sex, the characteristics that define men and women beyond their bodies. One is physical, which your average trans person does not deny, the other is mental, and therefore by nature, intangible and ambiguous. Some people are more feminine than others, some people are more masculine than others, and these traits don't respect physical boundaries.

This is not hard to understand Surt, I'm sure you can grasp that what makes you man involves more than your little trunk. sad Now spin.

Surtur
I searched for an explanation of the high suicide rate in the shit you just posted. Hey Beni, do you wanna guess what I found?

Like, post which parts of your post you think convinced me of that, if you had to guess.

Robtard
Originally posted by Surtur
If people are so complex, why can't they believe they are an alien?

I sincerely hope you're just ****ing around because you realize you have no real rational argument to justify your transgender bigotry.

Surtur
Originally posted by Robtard
I sincerely hope you're just ****ing around because you realize you have no real rational argument to justify your transgender bigotry.

So people are so complex they can ignore one reality, but another reality is totes crazy?

Hey, who decides which reality gets to be ignored? Serious question, who?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Robtard
I sincerely hope you're just ****ing around because you realize you have no real rational argument to justify your transgender bigotry. thumb up

Poor baby will just keep clinging to his suicide stat and his false equivalencies. sad

Surtur
Clinging to my stat lol, I asked you to explain it, you failed. What a joke you are.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
I searched for an explanation of the high suicide rate in the shit you just posted. Hey Beni, do you wanna guess what I found?

Like, post which parts of your post you think convinced me of that, if you had to guess. No I don't, now try a real rebuttal and I'll consider displaying an interest.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
Clinging to my stat lol, I asked you to explain it, you failed. What a joke you are. Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself. confused

Which part are you struggling with?

Surtur
You can post an explanation for the high suicide rate anytime Beni, nobody is stopping you. I'm still waiting lol.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Well Adam, Robtard said it's rude to answer a question with questions.

Did you just contradict him? Or will you hurt me and say you're being rude sad

I am not the one attempting to draw a false analogy between relevantly dissimilar things, and feigning victimhood when it is pointed out to me.

Surtur
Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
You can post an explanation for the high suicide rate anytime Beni, nobody is stopping you. I'm still waiting lol. Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself. The answer is there friend, the suicide rates are a product of gender dysphoria, not transgenderism.

Now again, which parts are you struggling with?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not the one attempting to draw a false analogy between relevantly dissimilar things, and feigning victimhood when it is pointed out to me. Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it. sick

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it.

It is entirely different, because when you respond to a question with a question, it is an attempt to deflect from your ability to answer that question.

When I did it a moment ago, it was to illustrate the flaw in your premise. You asked why transgender people are allowed to reject reality and you are not. I effectively asked what makes your experience of your gender any more "real" than anyone else's, and how you could demonstrate that.

Then, to deflect from your inability to answer that question, you changed the subject to race. So do you want to qualify your question now, by demonstrating that your experience of your gender is real, and that the experience of others of their gender is not?

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Intersex births are more common than people think: about 1 in 150,000. Intersex people have as strong a sense of their gender as other people do. The problem is that you are conflating sex with gender. Transgender people know what sex they are. They are not confused about their assigned gender, they reject it. I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.

Flyattractor
The more IMPORTANCE that is put on things like TRANSGENDER the more actual Gender and Sex seems to get Cheapened.

Surtur
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is entirely different, because when you respond to a question with a question, it is an attempt to deflect from your ability to answer that question.

When I did it a moment ago, it was to illustrate the flaw in your premise. You asked why transgender people are allowed to reject reality and you are not. I effectively asked what makes your experience of your gender any more "real" than anyone else's, and how you could demonstrate that.

Then, to deflect from your inability to answer that question, you changed the subject to race. So do you want to qualify your question now, by demonstrating that your experience of your gender is real, and that the experience of others of their gender is not?

I know I get it, you have a laundry list of reasons why it's different. Good stuff.

Surtur
So anyways:

NhxUGzMuKlE

Yep, at the end the feminist shoots herself in the foot by admitting "it's not about the women". Cue Tucker laughing. The most popular comment on the video says it all lol:

Liberal cannibalism is so beautiful.

Surtur
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.

The 40% suicide rate says it all. I reject the notion that society causes it. These people are not Jews living in Nazi occupied Germany for christs sake. You will not walk down the street and see signs in the windows of stores that say "No transgendered people allowed".

The biggest issue we have seen in this country with trans people is which bathroom they get to piss in.

Also keep in mind that this has poisoned the minds of some people. There are transgender 4 years old now, because their batshit insane parents drank this kool aid. I do not mean to say the 4 yr. olds had operations or hormones, but there are transgender kids. Kids still pissing the bed being allowed to make life altering decisions.

Beniboybling
Sometimes Surt your stupidity beggars belief. Trans people have been stabbed, shot and set on fire. Yes they are facing larger issues that which bathroom they get to piss in.

And there are transgender 4 year olds because some four year olds are transgender, not because their "minds" have been poisoned by "batshit insane parents", that's baseless nonsense, they are guilty of nothing but supporting their child's condition.

Get a f*cking grip.

Surtur
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sometimes Surt your stupidity beggars belief. Trans people have been stabbed, shot and set on fire. Yes they are facing larger issues that which bathroom they get to piss in.

And there are transgender 4 year olds because some four year olds are transgender, not because their "minds" have been poisoned by "batshit insane parents", that's baseless nonsense, they are guilty of nothing but supporting their child's condition.

Get a f*cking grip.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying there haven't been hate crimes against trans or anything, but the biggest trans issue in the country we see is the bathroom. If a trans issue is being discussed in our society it usually tends to be about where they can go to the bathroom.

We DO NOT see the suicide issue being pushed anywhere near as much, for example. Why is that? I think I know, because they do not want to suggest this is a mental illness.

Beniboybling
Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.Well that's just it. Sex and gender don't correlate perfectly, hence why they aren't treated as synonymous.

No one ever said sex is irrelevant to gender, the fact that trans people seek to transition is indeed proof to the contrary. But that doesn't change the fact that sex doesn't necessarily determine gender in any kind of rigid way, and in this respect they are distinct.

That's not true, recent studies point to SRS having a significant positive impact on trans mental health and quality of life. Some examples:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24344788/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9551-1
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5

On the other hand, attempting to force behavioural changes on a person in regards to something inherent to their identity seems little different from current practices of conversion therapy, which do not work.

Surtur
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?

My point is that we focus on non-issues to avoid the more serious consequences of being transgender, because people are afraid to approach a conversation that would even remotely suggest mental illness.

Actually wait, Beni...you made me realize something. You *can* blame society for this, in a way. Blame them for shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears to this issue. Ignoring it, while focusing on who pee's where.

It's an easier discussion to have, isn't it? Bathrooms, at least compared to a 40% suicide rate.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Surtur
shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their earsYeah you do this a lot, wait are we talking about you?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Surtur
Do you disagree with the quote of me he posted? Just curious.
Honestly I'm not really sure. On one hand being in a less than 1% minority of people that feels disturbed by the fact that their body is completely mismatched from how they feel on the inside with a 40% suicide rate doesn't exactly scream "mentally healthy" to me, yet at the same time I haven't really looked into the specifics of what constitutes a mental illness, and either way it doesn't effect my political positions or treatment of transgendered people.

I do however agree that your position that it is a mental illness shouldn't be conflated with a hatred or bigotry towards transgendered people. Most people don't think people with mental illnesses should be disparaged so it's not like you're trying to justify hatred or harassment of them with that statement, just that you don't accept the premise of gender identity differing from sex.

As far as my personal stance goes, transgenderism is not desirable, and that isn't to say transgendered people are lesser human beings, but that I would not wish transgenderism upon a human being given the intense identity struggle, search for social acceptance, and high suicide rate involved, meaning I still think it's at least a disorder. Based on this position, if a way to prevent transgenderism from developing say during a pregnancy or whenever it happens is determined, I would support it's use, or if a child has gender dysphoria I don't think it's a good thing to push them towards the opposite gender identity or give them hormones or surgery or anything that ****s with their biological development since they'll statistically settle into their birth sex most of the time.

When it comes to pronouns and socially accepting gender identity, if a transgendered person approaches me and asks me to accept them as the opposite sex I'd be perfectly willing to do that and use the other set of pronouns. Where I draw the line is I will not use made-up pronouns that don't exist (such as xe zir zhe zimself, zeguaelabkah), and I will not accept a made-up identity that isn't culturally or biologically grounded at all (so no genderfluid, femmequeer, agender, gender neutrois, attack helicopter gender bullshit). I'm not sure how I feel about the classification of gender identity as something separate from sex if we don't do the same for other biological attributes, such as having personality trait based racial identities or hair color identities or height identities or whatever that can vary from the biological trait based on personality. With a binary transgendered person regardless of whether or not I think the concept of gender identity is one that should exist, a binary transgendered person is still basing their identity on the archetypal male or female which is grounded in our culture and asking only that preexisting pronouns be used for them, whereas I reject the non-Binary bullshit of trying to impose a nonexistent identity and nonexistent language upon society.

It should be noted that while I'm willing to accept a binary transgendered person and use the male or female pronouns they choose, I do not think social acceptance of transgendered people or the use of specific language should be mandated by law since I consider the government threatening to steal your property or imprison you if you say the wrong thing to be a greater evil than using words in a way that offends people.

As far as the bathroom shit goes, I actually got into an interesting conversation with a few of my friends over why we segregate bathrooms to begin with, and that actually lead me to thinking about that since people argue it prevents sexual misconduct (rape, stall sex, child molestation), however the existence of homosexuality means that this isn't really fixed by gender segregated bathrooms, so what's the point of segregating them? The only thing I could really think of was different accommodations for different genitals. Then I realized that if bathrooms are segregated, it makes more sense to do so on the basis of biological sex than gender identity since the bathroom is not a social setting where personality traits and internal psychology are particularly relevant, and in a bathroom genitals are far more important to the task bathrooms were meant for. So basically if they are segregated, they should be segregated by biological sex rather than gender identity, and if people can use whatever bathroom they want based on how they subjectively identify themselves then what's the point of segregated bathrooms to begin with.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?
The point he's making is that the only comparable suicide rate to transgendered people is that of Jews in Nazi Germany, so the idea that the suicide rate isn't endemic to transgenderism but rather motivated by society's treatment of transgendered people is one he rejects since transgendered people are demonstrably not nearly as oppressed as people undergoing a literal genocide.

Beniboybling
Yes he's said that a number of times, as he doesn't really have any other argument, and I've addressed it already. What I was referring to was his insinuation that the biggest problem trans people faced was the bathroom they could piss in.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.
Yeah I honestly feel similarly about the notion of gender identity. I don't think it's necessarily wise to construct an identity corresponding to a biological characteristic based on personality traits associated with certain biological characteristics. We sometimes do something similar with other biological traits, but often only to the point of stereotypes (such as racial stereotypes) but not to the point of a fully blown identity that is linguistically and litigiously recognized. Much the same way that we don't do the same thing for other differences in psychology and personality traits, since we don't use separate sets of words for people with differing personality types or segregate them based on those differences in personality types or have it legislated into law. And I can see why we don't do that for other personality types or psychologies associated with biological characteristics because such a thing is much more difficult to objectively measure and quantify.

I mean hell, even two people in this thread ardently arguing in favor of the difference between the two completely acknowledge that gender identity is more subjective and is a lot more difficult to quantify:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you read what I just said? Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex pertains to your physical anatomy, from the shape of your genitalia down to your the nature of your chromosomes. Gender refers to the masculine and feminine identities that pertain to each sex, the characteristics that define men and women beyond their bodies. One is physical, which your average trans person does not deny, the other is mental, and therefore by nature, intangible and ambiguous. Some people are more feminine than others, some people are more masculine than others, and these traits don't respect physical boundaries.

This is not hard to understand Surt, I'm sure you can grasp that what makes you man involves more than your little trunk. sad
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Is your experience of your gender a reality? Can you prove it? What makes your experience of your gender legitimate and the experience of another person of their gender illegitimate?
And this really begs the question; if gender identity is so subjective, intangible, ambiguous, hard to prove, and difficult to quantify, then why should we give so much linguistic and litigious weight to this form of identity?

I mean would it not make more practical sense for us as a society to keep linguistic categories of pronouns in relation to biological sex, as well as keep legal documentation in relation to biological sex, and legislation regarding bathrooms in relation to biological sex (again, IMO bathrooms should either be segregated on the basis of biological sex since genitals and not psychology are relevant to taking a piss/shit, or they shouldn't be segregated to begin with), while still recognizing the differences in psychology and personality between varying human beings and accepting people dressing or behaving in ways more or less masculine/feminine than one of their sex traditionally does, and allowing them to get whatever cosmetic surgery or hormonal treatment they choose?

I simply don't see why "gender identity" needs to be instantiated into pronoun usage, bathroom usage, or legislative documentation for the difference in personality and psychology between individuals to be respected, particularly since it is way more practical to have language and legal documents based on something more tangible and objectively observable.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.

That is just it, sex and gender are not coupled. It is only because your sex and gender are in alignment, that you see it that way.

Not all transitions involve medical interventions. Some transgender people do not desire to change their sex. Rather, they seek to live as a gender that is different than the one that was assigned to them on the basis of their birth sex.

Think of it this way: you identify as a man, and the people who see and interact with you on a day-to-day basis do not know whether you are male, but they accept that you are a man, because that is how you identify, and that is how you present yourself. It is the exact same thing for transgender people. The only difference is that the gender they identify with does not correspond to their birth sex.

Gender dysphoria is a difficult condition to live with. Not only do people with this condition face political oppression, religious persecution, and social stigmatization from society-at-large, and often their own friends and families, they have to live with an irresolvable incongruity between their sex and gender. Some think that medical interventions will close the gap enough between that incongruity that they will be happy, and are depressed to learn that it does not solve all of their problems. That is not a failure of the intervention, that is a failure of expectation.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Surtur
I know I get it, you have a laundry list of reasons why it's different. Good stuff.

In other words, you are unwilling or unable to answer the question. Deflect away!

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
And this really begs the question; if gender identity is so subjective, intangible, ambiguous, hard to prove, and difficult to quantify, then why should we give so much linguistic and litigious weight to this form of identity?Why indeed, but unfortunately, that's how society has operated for thousands of years. sad

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why indeed, but unfortunately, that's how society has operated for thousands of years. sad
Up until recently we didn't make the distinction between gender identity and biological sex. We're making a grave mistake in trying to instantiate the less objectively measurable of the two into our language and legal documentation.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Up until recently we didn't make the distinction between gender identity and biological sex. We're making a grave mistake in trying to instantiate the less objectively measurable of the two into our language and legal documentation. Right exactly. Gender identity is so hardwired into our society and social interactions that it's considered practically synonymous with sex, even though they are in fact distinct constructs.

In that respect, pronouns, bathroom access, legal denotations etc. refer as much to a person's sex as to a person's gender. In should not be hard to work out why a trans person with identifies as female would be uncomfortable being referred to as "he", because it implies they have a masculine identity, when they don't, and a whole body of social behavior and character assumptions becomes shaped around that. The same goes with which bathroom you're allowed to use (which is largely a result of assumed male and female characteristics, not the shape of their privates) and arguably how you're legally identified.

If we lived in a society where these things referred to biological sex and nothing else, that would be great, but we don't.

Flyattractor
What do you mean by REFERRING to Biological Sex?

As if people don't already THINK with their Private Parts enough now as it is...

Surtur
[email protected] Democrats new Papa Johns slogan. Too funny.

Flyattractor
Wrong Thread Surt?

Surtur

Flyattractor
I would rather look at the Hottest First Lady ever instead.


Cause lets face up to it... Mizz T Way Hotter then then ANY other Mizz Prez...Damn Straight.

Surtur
Jackie Kennedy was bangable.

Flyattractor
True, but that was Damn Long Time Ago.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Surtur
The 40% suicide rate says it all. I reject the notion that society causes it. These people are not Jews living in Nazi occupied Germany for christs sake. You will not walk down the street and see signs in the windows of stores that say "No transgendered people allowed".

The biggest issue we have seen in this country with trans people is which bathroom they get to piss in.

Also keep in mind that this has poisoned the minds of some people. There are transgender 4 years old now, because their batshit insane parents drank this kool aid. I do not mean to say the 4 yr. olds had operations or hormones, but there are transgender kids. Kids still pissing the bed being allowed to make life altering decisions. I don't necessarily reject that society causes transgender people to be depressed or suicidal. But I do think the fact that post-op have a higher suicide rate that pre-op, and that the vast majority of trans women never actually make that final transition, indicates that there is something about that sugery that has negative consequences which are not necessarily just due to "trans-phobia." I say this because I feel that surely pre-op trans people are just as susceptible to trans-phobia as post-op people.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is just it, sex and gender are not coupled. It is only because your sex and gender are in alignment, that you see it that way.

Not all transitions involve medical interventions. Some transgender people do not desire to change their sex. Rather, they seek to live as a gender that is different than the one that was assigned to them on the basis of their birth sex.

Think of it this way: you identify as a man, and the people who see and interact with you on a day-to-day basis do not know whether you are male, but they accept that you are a man, because that is how you identify, and that is how you present yourself. It is the exact same thing for transgender people. The only difference is that the gender they identify with does not correspond to their birth sex.

Gender dysphoria is a difficult condition to live with. Not only do people with this condition face political oppression, religious persecution, and social stigmatization from society-at-large, and often their own friends and families, they have to live with an irresolvable incongruity between their sex and gender. Some think that medical interventions will close the gap enough between that incongruity that they will be happy, and are depressed to learn that it does not solve all of their problems. That is not a failure of the intervention, that is a failure of expectation. By "coupled" I don't mean synonymous. I simply mean that gender exists because human sexual dimorphism exists. So we have an archetype for "masculinity" that aligns roughly with what it would mean in the context of a hunter gatherer tribe for a man to be a good hunter, warrior, provider. And the archetype for "femininity" is largely based on what it means to be a good mother, nurturer, and wife. I don't see these as arbitrary social constructs, but as deeply rooted in human biology and evolution.

And so I don't necessarily "not understand" because I'm a non-trans male. I understand that some men want to become women. I don't completely understand their mind-state, but I can at least make sense of the fact that their sex doesn't satisfy them and they want to be something different.

What I don't understand, or to me what seems inherently incoherent, are the 70 something genders that are supposed to exist now. I don't understand the people who say they are neither male nor female, or that they are both simultaneously. I don't understand the people who say they identify with other animals or species.

And it seems like the left/social justice side of politics is basically inviting these kinds of incoherent claims by making them somewhat trendy and then shaming or shouting down anyone who openly questions them as simply being (best case) privileged and naive or (worst case) bigoted and malicious.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I don't necessarily reject that society causes transgender people to be depressed or suicidal. But I do think the fact that post-op have a higher suicide rate that pre-op, and that the vast majority of trans women never actually make that final transition, indicates that there is something about that sugery that has negative consequences which are not necessarily just due to "trans-phobia." I say this because I feel that surely pre-op trans people are just as susceptible to trans-phobia as post-op people.

I already addressed this. Many transgender people do not desire to change their bodies. Those that do, often encounter financial and legal obstacles that prevent them from completing medical transitions.

One needs a referral from two different psychologists in order to qualify for surgery, which means attending therapy for two years with two different therapists. Since sex reassignment is considered cosmetic, it is often not covered by insurance, and can cost up to $50,000. States often have their own requirements, including changing birth documents, and even reproductive sterilization.

In order to surmount all of these obstacles, some people begin to focus on getting the surgery as goal unto itself, instead of a means to an end. They become so focused on how to get to the destination, that they do not think about what will happen once they actually get there.

Many think they will get the surgery, and then they will be happy. But what they do not consider is that all of the troubles they had before surgery will still be there after surgery. They just get to face them in a body they feel more comfortable in. Many cosmetic and reconstructive surgery patients experience exactly the same thing. It is not unique to transgender people, nor is it a failure of the surgery.




Originally posted by Afro Cheese
By "coupled" I don't mean synonymous. I simply mean that gender exists because human sexual dimorphism exists. So we have an archetype for "masculinity" that aligns roughly with what it would mean in the context of a hunter gatherer tribe for a man to be a good hunter, warrior, provider. And the archetype for "femininity" is largely based on what it means to be a good mother, nurturer, and wife. I don't see these as arbitrary social constructs, but as deeply rooted in human biology and evolution.

And so I don't necessarily "not understand" because I'm a non-trans male. I understand that some men want to become women. I don't completely understand their mind-state, but I can at least make sense of the fact that their sex doesn't satisfy them and they want to be something different.

What I don't understand, or to me what seems inherently incoherent, are the 70 something genders that are supposed to exist now. I don't understand the people who say they are neither male nor female, or that they are both simultaneously. I don't understand the people who say they identify with other animals or species.

And it seems like the left/social justice side of politics is basically inviting these kinds of incoherent claims by making them somewhat trendy and then shaming or shouting down anyone who openly questions them as simply being (best case) privileged and naive or (worst case) bigoted and malicious.

If concepts of gender had a basis in biology, they would be uniform across time and culture, and that is simply not the case. Many cultures have more than two genders, and roles assigned to men in one culture may be assigned to women in another.

It is evident that you do not understand, because you described a transwoman as a "man who wants to be a woman." A transwoman is not a man, a transwoman is male. And she does not want to be a woman, she identifies as a woman. You are framing it as a male wanting to be something he is not, when it is someone asserting that both of those identities are true.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I already addressed this. Many transgender people do not desire to change their bodies. Those that do, often encounter financial and legal obstacles that prevent them from completing medical transitions.

One needs a referral from two different psychologists in order to qualify for surgery, which means attending therapy for two years with two different therapists. Since sex reassignment is considered cosmetic, it is often not covered by insurance, and can cost up to $50,000. States often have their own requirements, including changing birth documents, and even reproductive sterilization.

In order to surmount all of these obstacles, some people begin to focus on getting the surgery as goal unto itself, instead of a means to an end. They become so focused on how to get to the destination, that they do not think about what will happen once they actually get there.

Many think they will get the surgery, and then they will be happy. But what they do not consider is that all of the troubles they had before surgery will still be there after surgery. They just get to face them in a body they feel more comfortable in. Many cosmetic and reconstructive surgery patients experience exactly the same thing. It is not unique to transgender people, nor is it a failure of the surgery.I don't really disagree with any of what you just said. But that only adds to my gut feeling that ultimately the trans thing is a sort of delusion that we are encouraging people to engage in.

Because of course if they really believe they are a female trapped in a male's body, they will want to have a female body and they will see this as the solution to their problem. I think that is a sort of natural assumption for one to make if they are in that sort of situation.

Your statement that many don't want to alter their bodies just sounds to me like some of the more inane and trendy modern manifestations of people on tumblr who want to vaguely identify as something other than "cis" but do not want to go so far as making hormonal or surgical modifications to their bodies because they probably intuitively recognize the potential hazards of doing so. I think most of these people are playing word games and are just men or women who feel some level of disillusion with the gender roles they are expected to take on.

But it would seem to me the majority of trans people are usually born male and generally trying to present themselves as women. And beyond that, most of them do make modifications to their body. They just stop short of cutting their dicks off, because that is an intrinsically very radical thing to do.

But the use of hormones and cosmetic surgery to better approximate the body of a human female once again stands out to me as a subconscious recognition that in fact biology does matter. That being a woman only makes sense in the context of human biology, and that these people are doing their best to cosmetically and hormonally approximate that condition.






I see no reason why they would be uniform. Evolution is incredibly complex. What might make the ideal father in tribe A is not necessarily going to be the same in tribe B, especially if tribe A and B exist in radically different environments.

On top of that, in any tribe there is always going to be a dominance heirarchy, and you would expect as a result of that that different men and women will fall into place at different locations across the spectrum. So not all males are going to be genetically fit to be warlords, but they will find their place in the tribe according to whatever characteristics they do offer.


You're quibbling over my use of language to say that I don't understand. Let me say this... I might not be completely on top of how the trans/feminist community wants us to speak. But I feel that they are using these word games to preach their ideology, so I see little reason to grant them the authority to dictate how I speak since I don't particularly care for their ideology.

Let me ask you this... what is it about gender that makes it the sort of thing that you get to choose where as you dismiss the idea that people could do the same with race? Because the only arguments I've ever seen are that well some people are born with brains that more closely resemble a female brain or something along those lines. But doesn't that just back up the idea that gender is manifestation of sexual dimorphism? That it actually is closely linked to biology? And if so, wouldn't that undermine the idea that so and so can just declare themselves "masculine of center gender queer" or whatever tedious category they come up with that has absolutely no basis in their own biology?

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I don't really disagree with any of what you just said. But that only adds to my gut feeling that ultimately the trans thing is a sort of delusion that we are encouraging people to engage in.

Because of course if they really believe they are a female trapped in a male's body, they will want to have a female body and they will see this as the solution to their problem. I think that is a sort of natural assumption for one to make if they are in that sort of situation.

Your statement that many don't want to alter their bodies just sounds to me like some of the more inane and trendy modern manifestations of people on tumblr who want to vaguely identify as something other than "cis" but do not want to go so far as making hormonal or surgical modifications to their bodies because they probably intuitively recognize the potential hazards of doing so. I think most of these people are playing word games and are just men or women who feel some level of disillusion with the gender roles they are expected to take on.

But it would seem to me the majority of trans people are usually born male and generally trying to present themselves as women. And beyond that, most of them do make modifications to their body. They just stop short of cutting their dicks off, because that is an intrinsically very radical thing to do.

But the use of hormones and cosmetic surgery to better approximate the body of a human female once again stands out to me as a subconscious recognition that in fact biology does matter. That being a woman only makes sense in the context of human biology, and that these people are doing their best to cosmetically and hormonally approximate that condition.

For someone who is so insistent that he understands the issue, every time you post, you demonstrate that you do not.

A transwoman is not "a woman trapped in a man's body." She is a woman with a male body.

Transgender people do not seek medical interventions, because they "believe gender has a basis in biology." They do so to ease gender dysphoria, or to be better accepted as the gender with which they identify.

Imagine if you were short, or slight of frame, or had delicate features, and people constantly perceived you as a woman. Since you identify as a man, it is important to you that people see you as a man. So you might wear lifts in your shoes, or lift weights, or grow a beard, or get plastic surgery.

It is the exact same thing for transgender people, particularly because other people interact with their gender far more than with their genitals.




Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I see no reason why they would be uniform. Evolution is incredibly complex. What might make the ideal father in tribe A is not necessarily going to be the same in tribe B, especially if tribe A and B exist in radically different environments.

On top of that, in any tribe there is always going to be a dominance heirarchy, and you would expect as a result of that that different men and women will fall into place at different locations across the spectrum. So not all males are going to be genetically fit to be warlords, but they will find their place in the tribe according to whatever characteristics they do offer.

If gender had a basis in biology, how would it not be uniform? Aside from intersex persons who have a congenital birth defect, there are no human beings who are not sexually dimorphic, so where would variations in gender come from? There is not enough genetic variation among human beings for there to be actual, separate races, yet somehow you believe that there is enough to account for variations in gender? And that it is somehow just a coincidence that concepts of gender change over time and across cultures?




Originally posted by Afro Cheese
You're quibbling over my use of language to say that I don't understand. Let me say this... I might not be completely on top of how the trans/feminist community wants us to speak. But I feel that they are using these word games to preach their ideology, so I see little reason to grant them the authority to dictate how I speak since I don't particularly care for their ideology.

There is an entire branch of Philosophy dedicated to Semantics, and how language shapes thought. Conversely, the language you use, inadvertently reveals your thoughts to others. So when you use imprecise language, not only are you not effectively communicating your thoughts to other people, but you are also revealing to them what you do and do not know.




Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Let me ask you this... what is it about gender that makes it the sort of thing that you get to choose where as you dismiss the idea that people could do the same with race? Because the only arguments I've ever seen are that well some people are born with brains that more closely resemble a female brain or something along those lines. But doesn't that just back up the idea that gender is manifestation of sexual dimorphism? That it actually is closely linked to biology? And if so, wouldn't that undermine the idea that so and so can just declare themselves "masculine of center gender queer" or whatever tedious category they come up with that has absolutely no basis in their own biology?

What makes you think gender is chosen?

This is precisely what I mentioned above. You insist you understand the issue, then you post, and remove any doubt that you do.

That is the logical equivalent of saying a homosexual prefers members of the same sex, when he is in fact exclusively attracted to members of the same sex.

You are operating from the presumption that transgender people are choosing another gender, rather than experiencing the gender they have.

Flyattractor
You talk to much.

Surtur
This video is a few months old, but it's still kinda funny. Antifa, one of them a female, attacks a guy, get punched back. Then another male Antifa member is arrested for "defending" her from the guy who punched her.

Lol, they keep going on and on about how it was like the guy just ran up and randomly punched her, when she took the first swing and it's on video.

ziN0sw6gPfc

[email protected] the Antifa cuck getting arrested for defending some Antifa chick that didn't deserve to be defended because she was the aggressor.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Transgender people do not seek medical interventions, because they "believe gender has a basis in biology." They do so to ease gender dysphoria, or to be better accepted as the gender with which they identify.

Imagine if you were short, or slight of frame, or had delicate features, and people constantly perceived you as a woman. Since you identify as a man, it is important to you that people see you as a man. So you might wear lifts in your shoes, or lift weights, or grow a beard, or get plastic surgery.

It is the exact same thing for transgender people, particularly because other people interact with their gender far more than with their genitals.Are you sure that it's one or the other? That no trans women change their bodies because they prefer the female form over the male form?

And yes, society will treat them differently largely because we are instinctively used to (for the most part) being able to tell a woman from a man just by looking at them. As a sexually dimorphic species, this seems like a rather important manifestation of human pattern recognition, especially (but not limited to) when seeking out prospective mates.



When you speak of gender not being uniform, I assume you are largely speaking of the spectrum that exists with regard to masculinity and femininity, and the fact that some men are less masculine than others etc.

So, to answer your question, this doesn't seem at all at odds with the idea that these categories still ultimately arise from sexual dimorphism and human sexuality and mating strategies. Traits that are selected for sexually can very easily vary. This is similar to asking why a troop of baboons is going to have more and less dominant males.

As far as I know, the vast majorty of human societies have some version of these basic concepts. This is because female selection of male mates is an important part of human mating strategies. So the question you should ask yourself is if it's just an arbitrary social construct and particular to cultural expectations, why do so many widely different and isolated cultures share some form of this basic dynamic?

And to my eye, the easiest explanation for that is that biologically we can only mate between males and females, and in the tribal context especially we required rather specialized traits to develope in each of the sexes in order for the successful rearing of children to be feasible.

You need both female nurturers and mothers as well as male hunters, warriors and providers in order to be successful in that context. Keeping in mind that not all males will contribute to the gene pool where as roughly (most) women will.


Maybe "choice" isn't the right word, but my basic point is that the criteria for determining one's gender ultimately come down to self-identification, in the modern feminist model.

You might have some science that shows that some males have some sort of biological quirk which makes their brains more closely resemble that of a female, but that is ultimately irrelevant since the only criteria by which a male is categorized as a man or a woman is by self identification and not by any biological standard.

So to my eye, the advocates for this sort of thing often will appeal to biology and science to back up their claims when it is convenient to do so, but then simultaneously will claim that biology is utterly irrelevant to gender. As such, they seem (to me) more beholden to ideology than to intellectual honesty.

Emperordmb
Could somebody explain what's wrong with this societal approach?
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I mean would it not make more practical sense for us as a society to keep linguistic categories of pronouns in relation to biological sex, as well as keep legal documentation in relation to biological sex, and legislation regarding bathrooms in relation to biological sex (again, IMO bathrooms should either be segregated on the basis of biological sex since genitals and not psychology are relevant to taking a piss/shit, or they shouldn't be segregated to begin with), while still recognizing the differences in psychology and personality between varying human beings and accepting people dressing or behaving in ways more or less masculine/feminine than one of their sex traditionally does, and allowing them to get whatever cosmetic surgery or hormonal treatment they choose?

I simply don't see why "gender identity" needs to be instantiated into pronoun usage, bathroom usage, or legislative documentation for the difference in personality and psychology between individuals to be respected, particularly since it is way more practical to have language and legal documents based on something more tangible and objectively observable.

Afro Cheese
The thing with the whole bathroom issue is it seems very impractical to actually enforce it based strictly on biological sex. A convincing trans woman is going to have very few problems using the vast majority of public ladies rooms because who is going to even know that she is biologically male? Where as the old character "Pat" from SNL is likely to get strange looks regardless of which bathroom he/she chooses. That's why that bathroom legislation seemed not just discriminatory but also an absurd waste of time and effort.

Here'es a video of me and my mom debating the bathroom situation when I was over at her house. You can't see our faces because she didn't realize I was recording it.

smzsWsJO_VU

Surtur
Lol...

Surtur
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Could somebody explain what's wrong with this societal approach?

It is at least a better approach compared to what we have now. My question is, how is a person not mentally ill if they truly get upset they can't tinkle in a bathroom that has the word "woman" on it?

Speaking of trans people, you ever wonder...do Caitlyn Jenners kids call her mom?

Surtur
Feminist Critic Trashes New Doctor Who For Not Being Black And Transgender

At this point I feel nothing else even needs to be said.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Could somebody explain what's wrong with this societal approach? I did already? Why don't you listen to me DMB. sad

Surtur

ArtificialGlory
Yeah, it's not about inviting people based on their political stance, it's about disinviting them based on their political stance.

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