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Superman punches the following characters like he punched Doomsday in the scan presented.

Who gets KOed and who doesn't

1.- Black Bolt
2.- Wonder Woman
3.- Silver Surfer
4.- Thor
5.- Captain Marvel (Billy)
6.- Hulk
7.- Black Adam
8.- Sentry
9.- Thanos

Which one of this guys can shrug off 4000 Superman punches?


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T1qiEZDHwk0/V5hhQ0Iu78I/AAAAAAACqbo/L572_8BMaV80bUPIc5CtUSJBi7G7RDOcwCLcB/s1600/01_05.jpg

1.- Black Bolt- DECIMATED
2.- Wonder Woman-FLATTENED
3.- Silver Surfer- DESTROYED
4.- Thor- ANNIHILATED..AGAIN!!!
5.- Captain Marvel (Billy)-KO'D
6.- Hulk- EVISCERATED!!!!
7.- Black Adam- BROKEN!!!!!
8.- SentryPULVERIZED
9.- Thanos- MURDERED..THE EMO EGGPLANT FINDS PEACE!!!!

^^^ Put the One Above All in this, and it would be the same.

Those are some weak-ass punches.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Those are some weak-ass punches.

Yep! So weak that they make Doomsday or Superman bleed

Superman clears the gauntlet

Originally posted by -Pr-
Those are some weak-ass punches. Yeah, but that's how they're portrayed most of the time in comics. Same thing happened when he speedblitzed Orion, he broke his mask, but his head was still on his shoulders.

Luckily, on the forum, there's no PIS, so 4000 punches would really be felt like 4000 punches from Superman using his superspeed. He shitstomps this thread.

1.- Black Bolt- hurt badly but is still standing
2.- Wonder Woman- hurt but is ready to fight
3.- Silver Surfer- hurt without a scratch but is ready to fight
4.- Thor- bloody nose but is ready to fight
5.- Captain Marvel (Billy)- hurt but is ready to fight
6.- Hulk- depends on his rage. Calm, same as Thor. Angry, he tanks it
7.- Black Adam- hurt but is ready to fight
8.- Sentry - depends on the version. None is koed
9.- Thanos - bloody nose but is ready to fight

Wouldn't those punches be closer to CIP than PIS if that is how they are always portrayed? It almost seems like when Superman flurries, the power of each punch is significantly reduced

...

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Wouldn't those punches be closer to CIP than PIS if that is how they are always portrayed? It almost seems like when Superman flurries, the power of each punch is significantly reduced

Orion smiled at his blitz flurry. I think you have a point.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3178145-8453695783-tz2cm.jpg

He said Thor only bloody nose

Originally posted by carver9
Orion smiled at his blitz flurry. I think you have a point.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120267/3178145-8453695783-tz2cm.jpg

Doomsday isn't fazed here and Equus doesn't even look groggy:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138490/3496058-superman+v+doomsday+superman+v2+%23175+004.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XEY46v7S6bI/VxZNnPGINwI/AAAAAAAB4sY/w7FULhBkOUEQIV2dhQFSgzbcbM7axnhcQCLcB/s1600/02_96.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YHUtQ1XtO34/VxZNnF2m0bI/AAAAAAAB4sc/qO1xhN4fr0gqzngyJPnE-jFaH6ONlme8QCLcB/s1600/02_97.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421774-7209318529-Adven.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421775-1034488714-Adven.jpg

ermm

Originally posted by -Pr-
I guess. I just really don't like the idea that anything could survive being punched 4000 times by Superman in quick succession.
That's why it's so rare. Most writers know that a dozen punches from Superman, let alone 4000, would kill most of the characters, so they don't show it. Because once shown, you can't have him kill the characters, so it gets jobbed.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Or maybe it just isnt effective...like as shown Originally posted by abhilegend
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421774-7209318529-Adven.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421775-1034488714-Adven.jpg

ermm
Don't listen to Marvel trolls.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/Superman/Supermanv2172pg13.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111290977/5776588-2712784-2374136_week01_2000_superman_v2_152_04.jpg

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113173/5387367-week01-2000-superman_v2-152-05.jpg

What I never understood about super speed punches other than the usually little to no damage is the actual physics of it. When punching with such speed and such numbers, why is the guy getting punched almost never shown to be forcefully being pushed?
I mean the first punch alone should have him flying or at least moved from the original spot significantly. But usually we see hundreds even thousands that do almost no displacement of the one on the receiving end. Is it because the force being applied isn't really that strong? Maybe it's akin to multiple jabs in succession where u start off quick per punch, but sort of pull back right before impact because ure setting up for the next one?
When u think about, if you were putting tremendous force on each punch, how can you actually punch them again properly when u just transferred the energy of a punch on them which should really displace them somewhat? Or... At least shift the target in such a way that consecutive blows would be harder to land because of all the angles you now have to deal with.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
What I never understood about super speed punches other than the usually little to no damage is the actual physics of it. When punching with such speed and such numbers, why is the guy getting punched almost never shown to be forcefully being pushed?
I mean the first punch alone should have him flying or at least moved from the original spot significantly. But usually we see hundreds even thousands that do almost no displacement of the one on the receiving end. Is it because the force being applied isn't really that strong? Maybe it's akin to multiple jabs in succession where u start off quick per punch, but sort of pull back right before impact because ure setting up for the next one?
When u think about, if you were putting tremendous force on each punch, how can you actually punch them again properly when u just transferred the energy of a punch on them which should really displace them somewhat? Or... At least shift the target in such a way that consecutive blows would be harder to land because of all the angles you now have to deal with.
Well in Supes's particular case, there's actually a logical reason for it. He's a solar battery. The harder he hits, the more energy he uses(and as was demonstrated in DOS, his reserves can be depleted). So if he were to throw 4,000 max power punches in a single second it'd prob send him into a kryptonian coma again since he'd be burning up a truckload of energy without taking in 4,000 times more solar energy per second.

Let's just take it as it is shown. No excuses. Those 4000 punches were not effective. There are other times superman has done this and it was the same results. People are starting to make excuses for Superman,but the scans show the truth😏

in a forum setting, without pis, super speed punches should be viewed differently i'd think. this is sort of an age-old issue in the forum. super speed ALWAYS causes problems of one kind or another. do the super speed punches seem less effective? in most cases, yes. so, why is that the case? is superman (in this case) hitting with only a fraction of the force that he normally hits with? it would certainly seem so. is that because he CAN'T punch at full force using super speed? that seems...dumb. i could throw a bunch of punches and each would be nearly as much as i could put into a shot. stupid to think superman couldn't. i def don't buy the idea that he'd run out of energy....

so what are the alternatives? mental block? straight pis? and it's not just superman. i recall spiderman's flurries doing little in some cases as well--a lot less then his bog haymakers do at least. most people who throw super speed punches seem to be less effective. i think it's pis, plain and simple. and in a non-pis setting, those punches should be considered....a LOT more effective. /shrug

Leo would have a point if in the Doomsday fight Superman didn't say moments before that he can't hold back against Doomsday.

superman claims to 'not hold back' a lot. saying it doesn't drop his mental blocks. but i'm curious--to what do you attribute the general ineffectiveness of super speed punches then?

Honestly don't think that writer was thinking about mental blocks when he was writing the Superman vs Doomsday fight. Honestly, I would take Superman or whomever super speed punches as what is shown in comics. I can't claim Hulk could thunder clap a planet to dust due to him having planetary strength if I don't have anything backing it up. The strength is there, it's the showings that he/Superman /Hulk doesn't have.

Originally posted by leonidas
in a forum setting, without pis, super speed punches should be viewed differently i'd think. this is sort of an age-old issue in the forum. super speed ALWAYS causes problems of one kind or another. do the super speed punches seem less effective? in most cases, yes. so, why is that the case? is superman (in this case) hitting with only a fraction of the force that he normally hits with? it would certainly seem so. is that because he CAN'T punch at full force using super speed? that seems...dumb. i could throw a bunch of punches and each would be nearly as much as i could put into a shot. stupid to think superman couldn't. i def don't buy the idea that he'd run out of energy....

so what are the alternatives? mental block? straight pis? and it's not just superman. i recall spiderman's flurries doing little in some cases as well--a lot less then his bog haymakers do at least. most people who throw super speed punches seem to be less effective. i think it's pis, plain and simple. and in a non-pis setting, those punches should be considered....a LOT more effective. /shrug

In boxing matches, each punch in a fast flurry is never nearly as hard as a single power punch thrown outside of a flurry. A shoe shine doesn't produce a punch as hard as a dug in single blow.

I think that the energy idea is very viable.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Soooo you want to take the logical interpretation and apply it on the forum instead of relying what is on panel? Even in the face of overwhelmingly disproportionate (I.e. the Flash's entire career) evidence. Yes, I'd rather apply logic, than what some writers think it's cool and didn't think through. That's why we have the PIS rule.

Increasing the speed of a punch doesn't decrease it's force - that's literally the opposite of what happens. I think that's taught in the lower grades even in your school, no?

Originally posted by leonidas
superman claims to 'not hold back' a lot. saying it doesn't drop his mental blocks. but i'm curious--to what do you attribute the general ineffectiveness of super speed punches then?
I honestly think we have to take them as they're portrayed most of the time. We accept humans taking punches from superhumans, we accept "humans" sized characters lifting cars/buildings without them crumbling, we accept characters moving faster than sound without sonic booms and faster than light without destroying the planet and this seems like the kind of quirk that falls along those lines. We're not talking about an individual character simply "forgetting" about an ability in a manner that falls under PIS, we're talking about a widespread that occurs across the entire medium frequently enough to be in indication of the inherent physics of their respectives universes.

And even if we decide to hold it to real world logic/standards, there's still a valid reason for the phenomenon. A class 100 throwing a supersonic punch at full power is going to knock the person it hits a GREAT distance away at the speed in which the punch was thrown. The only way one could land multiple punches would be to make each punch significantly faster than the last, and the subsequent punches would still be less powerful than normal because the target is still moving backwards rather than being planted in place. The only exceptions would be characters like the Flash who could theoretically speed steal from the target so they were suspended in space so that each punch was delivered with maximum impact. Thus, other characters would HAVE to throw the punches just hard enough to hurt without them being so hard that it sends the victim flying if they wanted to land more than 1.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
In boxing matches, each punch in a fast flurry is never nearly as hard as a single power punch thrown outside of a flurry. A shoe shine doesn't produce a punch as hard as a dug in single blow.

I think that the energy idea is very viable.
What????

If I use a full single power punch and then do the same but apply superhuman speed to it, the only difference is the amount of punches I've thrown.

What you're talking about is flurry jabs vs power punch. The difference here is, Superman uses multiple power punches ( in this case 400).

though, the art does suggest all he was doing was bitching slapping doomsday

Goob
Touched on wut I was thinking. If we apply real physics to it that is. At least logically that's how it would really be Imo.

Then again I'm no physics professor.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17

Goob
Touched on wut I was thinking. If we apply real physics to it that is. At least logically that's how it would really be Imo.

Then again I'm no physics professor.
Yeah, I mean it's one thing to push for a DBZ type blitz where the character's knocked away and then the attacker appears behind them and sends them flying in another direction, but punching that hard and fast should virtually never work to maximum efficiency with all the attacks coming from the same direction.

It's just an artistic tool.

Flashes are often fighting at lightspeed, and they still look like dug in power shots in most panels, but you have to realize that these are happening at the speed of light.

Look at Wally vs Zoom. Every time it stops the panel, they look like they're colliding like Superman vs Doomsday's final panels, but the battle took place in less than a second and circled the earth a bunch of times.

Flash and Zoom fighting at this speed, are still generating their mass, its just that the other guy also has an ever-reaching amount of mass equal to that.

Likewise, Flashes generated mass is the only reason the Flashes can even deliver/take shots from Superman level enemies.

Even when describing what became "IMP" in forum lore, he explicitly says he can do it to Zum a 1000 times before he can blink, but once should do it. It's just that back then, it was super rare for Wally to do combat feats at lightspeed. Since then, not so much.

There is no precedent that in these situations, moving and punching faster hurts less. In terms of the physics described by Flash over the years, it's moving SLOWER and swinging less is what causes them to hurt less.

Now everyone is as durable and tough as Doomsday or the Imperiex Probes

Even Orion's helmet that has survived some hard core attacks got destroyed by Superman's punches.

I like The Nile I am reading in here.

Could someone post a scan of the characters mentioned tanking 4,000 Superman level punches so they can back up their claim?

Orion got an unknown amount of punches and his helmet got destroyed.

Doomsday is none of the guys mentioned

Imperiex Probes is also none of the guys mentioned and also most probes got destroyed with a lot less than 4000 punches, specially because Superman is letting it go like he would do with Doomsday but not with Orion.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's just very curious how all of a sudden you're arguing for logical interpretation of what should happen instead of what does happen in regards to super-speed. Lots of things are portrayed in comics that wouldn't fly on the forum - because we're not dumb as shit . It's why nobody gives a shit if Flash is tagged in 99% of his comics by random stuff, while on the forum he wouldn't be tagged in 99% of the cases.

Sooo people are ignoring on panel evidence becuz......superman?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
In boxing matches, each punch in a fast flurry is never nearly as hard as a single power punch thrown outside of a flurry. A shoe shine doesn't produce a punch as hard as a dug in single blow.

I think that the energy idea is very viable.

yeah that makes no sense. if it takes me 3 seconds to throw 1 full powered punch, he could throw hundreds, conservatively, in that same time. not that the punches need to be full force anyway....

Originally posted by darthgoober
I honestly think we have to take them as they're portrayed most of the time. We accept humans taking punches from superhumans, we accept "humans" sized characters lifting cars/buildings without them crumbling, we accept characters moving faster than sound without sonic booms and faster than light without destroying the planet and this seems like the kind of quirk that falls along those lines. We're not talking about an individual character simply "forgetting" about an ability in a manner that falls under PIS, we're talking about a widespread that occurs across the entire medium frequently enough to be in indication of the inherent physics of their respectives universes..

hrm, i'd disagree. the reason buildings don't crumple and the planet doesn't blow up is because that would ruin a story. that is the definition of pis. i don't think we chock it up to...'physical' differences between the comic world and our world. we accept it because to NOT accept it wouldn't make sense. this issue is entirely different. it's the same issue we have any time we tackle a flash discussion.
we've seen zoom hit as hard or harder than superman. why? because he hits with super speed. what if he had superman's strength to begin? he'd what, hit with the same force non-superman zoom would hit with...? there is no 'inherent difference' that can make this make sense. zoom uses his superspeed to hit really hard, but superman uses his super speed to hit....with less force than his usual blows? the reason is far simpler--if superman hit 4000x at his full strength, the character would be dead in a comic book. but the forum isn't a comic book.



again, i disagree with this entirely. from a purely logical point it stands to reason, but ANY punch, no mater if it's superspeed or not, would send someone flying away. hulk weighs what, 1000lbs? if superman tapped him with a single finger flick, hulk should be sent flying for miles. and yet we see characters stand toe to toe pounding each for all they're worth all the time. if the logic doesn't hold true for non-super speed punches, i see no reason to assume it should hold true for super speed ones. /shrug

this just seems like a non-argument to me. super speed punches seem less effective for the same reasons flash doesn't end every battle with captain cold in the first pico second of the battle.

Originally posted by carver9
Honestly don't think that writer was thinking about mental blocks when he was writing the Superman vs Doomsday fight. Honestly, I would take Superman or whomever super speed punches as what is shown in comics. I can't claim Hulk could thunder clap a planet to dust due to him having planetary strength if I don't have anything backing it up. The strength is there, it's the showings that he/Superman /Hulk doesn't have.

but you dodged the question--you'd take the punches as shown, which is fine, but the question is why do super speed punches seem so much less effective than normal punches? i say it's clearly pis. what's your reasoning?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Sooo people are ignoring on panel evidence becuz......superman?

i don't think anyone is...ignoring anything. i think people are discussing the reasons for the seeming disparity between speed and damage output. if it is indeed pis, then yes, the evidence would and should be mostly ignored in the forum setting. for anyone with super speed....

Originally posted by xJLxKing
What????

If I use a full single power punch and then do the same but apply superhuman speed to it, the only difference is the amount of punches I've thrown.

What you're talking about is flurry jabs vs power punch. The difference here is, Superman uses multiple power punches ( in this case 400).

though, the art does suggest all he was doing was bitching slapping doomsday

Well I was specially replying to leonidas's reference to what he can do with his punches and I don't think that he has superspeed. Muhammad Ali punched faster than George Foreman yet not nearly as hard. Also, as the term suggests, a flurry of punches is like a snow flurry and describes the swirling motion that is achieved by throwing repeated fast hooks and uppercuts. The time needed to plant and put your body into a singe punch is not available in a flurry. Repeated jabs is not a flurry.

If we want to remain consistent with logic, then one must accept that if Thor and Surfer are able to dodge and maneuver while flying at light speed, then both would have superspeed reflexes. When this is asserted, Superman fans immediately cry that comics don't work that way. So on this forum where "PIS" is not allowed, can we use that to assert that Surfer and Thor have superspeed reflexes, therefore would be able to avoid being hit by Superman's superspeed punches?

Doesn't Hulk's have to throw a punch at superspeed in order to achieve enough velocity to shatter a mountain?

Originally posted by leonidas
but you dodged the question--you'd take the punches as shown, which is fine, but the question is why do super speed punches seem so much less effective than normal punches? i say it's clearly pis. what's your reasoning?

I can't answer that question tbh... I don't know the answer to it but I can't ignore what's shown either. It doesn't even matter since what he did wasn't even natural to him. Read his words "this is something I've learned from Flash...

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11129/111294215/5667651-doomsday+speed+feat.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
hrm, i'd disagree. the reason buildings don't crumple and the planet doesn't blow up is because that would ruin a story. that is the definition of pis. i don't think we chock it up to...'physical' differences between the comic world and our world. we accept it because to NOT accept it wouldn't make sense. this issue is entirely different. it's the same issue we have any time we tackle a flash discussion.
Yes but we still accept those standards of their reality here on the forum, story driven or not. We don't limit someone to sub light speed just because we know that according to physics it means the world ends so they won't go that fast anymore than they'll simply blow up the Earth to win. Given that precedent, we have to accept the way super speed punches are portrayed in comics.

Originally posted by leonidas
we've seen zoom hit as hard or harder than superman. why? because he hits with super speed. what if he had superman's strength to begin? he'd what, hit with the same force non-superman zoom would hit with...? there is no 'inherent difference' that can make this make sense. zoom uses his superspeed to hit really hard, but superman uses his super speed to hit....with less force than his usual blows? the reason is far simpler--if superman hit 4000x at his full strength, the character would be dead in a comic book. but the forum isn't a comic book.
Yeah we've seen Zoom hit with Superman level punches... but how many of those punches did he throw at a time? I seem to remember him hitting Powergirl like a million times and she just shrugged it off.

Think of it like this, we just had a thread where the discussion was talking about Captain America's physical attributes. Are you now saying that we should acknowledge that Cap isn't fighting in a comic on KMC thus logic should take priority over on panel showings when debating the character?

Originally posted by leonidas
again, i disagree with this entirely. from a purely logical point it stands to reason, but ANY punch, no mater if it's superspeed or not, would send someone flying away. hulk weighs what, 1000lbs? if superman tapped him with a single finger flick, hulk should be sent flying for miles. and yet we see characters stand toe to toe pounding each for all they're worth all the time. if the logic doesn't hold true for non-super speed punches, i see no reason to assume it should hold true for super speed ones. /shrug

this just seems like a non-argument to me. super speed punches seem less effective for the same reasons flash doesn't end every battle with captain cold in the first pico second of the battle.
I'm not trying to be accusing here, but the standard you seem to be proposing is that we should suspend disbelief to whatever degree necessary in regards to holding super strength to it's on panel effect while rejecting the on panel portrayal of super speed despite the fact that characters actually ARE knocked great distances far more frequently in comics than super speed punches are shown to be as effective as non super speed punches. I'm not saying that you're intentionally trying to push something that you know is a double standard, but it does seem that you're overlooking the double standard.

Originally posted by carver9
I can't answer that question tbh... I don't know the answer to it but I can't ignore what's shown either. It doesn't even matter since what he did wasn't even natural to him. Read his words "this is something I've learned from Flash...

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11129/111294215/5667651-doomsday+speed+feat.jpg

What relevance does that have?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Those are some weak-ass punches.

In the comic I agree with this..

Shouldn't superspeed augment the power behind the punch?

There is no way doomsday should have been able to take those punches because Superman bad done way more damage with a single punch.

So those 4000 punches Imo were weak.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but we still accept those standards of their reality here on the forum, story driven or not. We don't limit someone to sub light speed just because we know that according to physics it means the world ends so they won't go that fast anymore than they'll simply blow up the Earth to win. Given that precedent, we have to accept the way super speed punches are portrayed in comics.

well, it's fiction so obviously there has to be suspension of disbelief. and that is easy to do if there are no obvious contradictions in the world. across comics people catch planes, throw cars, hold buildings, travel at light speed. those things are consistently portrayed and so easily accounted for through suspension of disbelief. super speed isn't portrayed with anywhere near those consistencies. and it really can't be, or flash stories would end before they started and superman could end someone with a 1000 mountain busting punches. and that would be no good. for the plot.



yep, a perfect example of the lack of internal consistency that makes suspension of disbelief problematic and sets super speed apart from the other things you were equating it with. one time we see superman super speed punch lobo unconscious, the next we see his punches laughed off by orion. flash can throw a million imps if he chooses, but only one is enough. why not throw a million of them any other time he gets in trouble with an opponent? why doesn't zoom always hit harder than superman? plot.



not sure what that analogy has to do with anything. i'm not ruling out character as a possible explanation. in fact i said maybe it's superman's own mental blocks that prevent him from hitting harder when he uses his super speed to punch. that wouldn't be pis in that case. but then do ALL characters inherently hold back when they punch at super speed? cool, heroes don't wanna hurt someone too badly. i could almost buy it. but what about villains? there is no way to reconcile the issue, not completely, not when it's shown one way sometimes and a different way other times. but super speed punches sure look cool, so that's good. for the plot.



far more frequently? not sure about that, but it's irrelevant anyway, unless you're just trying to highlight yet another issue that lacks internal consistency....? and i'm not overlooking a double standard--there isn't one. again: some things are depicted with a great deal of internal consistency. super speed and its effects is not even close to one of them. there is no logical way to explain away the fact that superman, throwing punches at super speed, should hit LESS hard than if he hits with a much slower speed. that's like....the exact opposite of what should happen, and what has been shown--many many times--in comics. i mean a golfer with a slower club speed hits a ball FURTHER than someone who generates huge club speed? pretty sure that would be absurd in both the real and comic worlds...

i seriously don't see the issue here. super speed is a broken power and as such is subject to authorial license more than most abilities. how can it increase the power of one punch, and decrease the power of another? sometimes in the same character? hell, i even recall a time superman himself made use of the IMP theory, blatantly illustrating that the more his speed increases the greater the power he will generate. but that doesn't translate to his punches? that of course makes zero sense, and there is no making sense of it because the effects are purely dependent upon...? the plot.

@ carv--i can respect you saying you don't know. that's better than attempting to rationalize it away. and if you wanna stick to the panels, i can't blame you. there IS no way to rationalize the way the effects of speed are depicted. that's why i feel pis is the best answer to what we see. /shrug

Originally posted by -Pr-
What relevance does that have?

Can't believe you asked this.

Originally posted by carver9
Can't believe you asked this.

That's not an answer.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, it's fiction so obviously there has to be suspension of disbelief. and that is easy to do if there are no obvious contradictions in the world. across comics people catch planes, throw cars, hold buildings, travel at light speed. those things are consistently portrayed and so easily accounted for through suspension of disbelief. super speed isn't portrayed with anywhere near those consistencies. and it really can't be, or flash stories would end before they started and superman could end someone with a 1000 mountain busting punches. and that would be no good. for the plot.

It IS portrayed with consistency, in a flurry of super speed punches each punch seems less effective than a single powerful punch.

Originally posted by leonidas
yep, a perfect example of the lack of internal consistency that makes suspension of disbelief problematic and sets super speed apart from the other things you were equating it with. one time we see superman super speed punch lobo unconscious, the next we see his punches laughed off by orion. flash can throw a million imps if he chooses, but only one is enough. why not throw a million of them any other time he gets in trouble with an opponent? why doesn't zoom always hit harder than superman? plot.

Even a million punches a second isn't close to 99% lightspeed/IMP. Light speed is fast... like really REALLY fast. Let's say a character's arm is 3 feet long and he pulls his fist all the way back to his shoulder his fists would travel 3 million feet per second... after a million punches his fists would have traveled 568.181818 miles in that second. Meanwhile light would have traveled over 186,000 miles in that second.

Originally posted by leonidas
not sure what that analogy has to do with anything. i'm not ruling out character as a possible explanation. in fact i said maybe it's superman's own mental blocks that prevent him from hitting harder when he uses his super speed to punch. that wouldn't be pis in that case. but then do ALL characters inherently hold back when they punch at super speed? cool, heroes don't wanna hurt someone too badly. i could almost buy it. but what about villains? there is no way to reconcile the issue, not completely, not when it's shown one way sometimes and a different way other times. but super speed punches sure look cool, so that's good. for the plot.
That's the point, since villians and such are ALSO subject to the lessened power of the punches it supports the notion that there's SOMETHING inherent in the universe that reduces the power of a flurry of punches. It's a near omnipresent quirk of comic book physics that shouldn't be ignored.

Originally posted by leonidas
far more frequently? not sure about that, but it's irrelevant anyway, unless you're just trying to highlight yet another issue that lacks internal consistency....? and i'm not overlooking a double standard--there isn't one. again: some things are depicted with a great deal of internal consistency. super speed and its effects is not even close to one of them. there is no logical way to explain away the fact that superman, throwing punches at super speed, should hit LESS hard than if he hits with a much slower speed. that's like....the exact opposite of what should happen, and what has been shown--many many times--in comics. i mean a golfer with a slower club speed hits a ball FURTHER than someone who generates huge club speed? pretty sure that would be absurd in both the real and comic worlds...

Yes far more frequently. MOST fights between characters with true super strength feature at least 1(and usually more) instance(s) of one of them getting knocked pretty far away. There aren't nearly that many showings where each of a flurry of super speed punches seeming as effective as single powerful punch. Now if you're going to liken those things together as things that lack internal consistency, does it mean that on the forum we ignore on panel showings where super strong characters take super strong punches without moving and assume that every punch thrown will send an appropriate distance away... or do we take things as they're shown in the comics.

What's more, there IS a logical reason for characters to intentionally hit less hard when throwing a flurry that I already brought up... because 100+ punch being thrown at super speed will send the opponent out of the area. So even if there's not something inherent in the universe that makes a flurry less powerful, it makes sense for a character to hold back their full power in each punch of the flurry so they can keep their opponent in range to stack up rapid fire damage. And if we do as you seem to want and ignore "issues that lacks internal consistency" like super speed flurries and opponents standing their ground against super strong punches that's exactly what we have to consider to be the effect in forum fights... a single punch gets thrown and the opponent flies off so another punch can't be thrown without the attacker chasing him down. So no true "flurries" EVER without the opponent being grounded and a large hole forming as each punch lands(possibly destroying the planet if the character is anywhere close to a planet buster throwing IMPs).

Originally posted by leonidas
i seriously don't see the issue here. super speed is a broken power and as such is subject to authorial license more than most abilities. how can it increase the power of one punch, and decrease the power of another? sometimes in the same character? hell, i even recall a time superman himself made use of the IMP theory, blatantly illustrating that the more his speed increases the greater the power he will generate. but that doesn't translate to his punches? that of course makes zero sense, and there is no making sense of it because the effects are purely dependent upon...? the plot.


Hey you can always make a case in a thread about "authorial licenses" in a thread involving a character with super speed, but just remember that whoever you're debating against has just as much right to site "authorial licenses" in regards to why hitting super hard and super fast wouldn't work because of the opponent getting sent flying. After all, there's just no logical way that shouldn't happen...

...OR we could save ourselves a lot of time and wasted effort and just debate according to the physics demonstrated on panel whether they make sense or not.

Originally posted by Diesldude
In the comic I agree with this..

Shouldn't superspeed augment the power behind the punch?

There is no way doomsday should have been able to take those punches because Superman bad done way more damage with a single punch.

So those 4000 punches Imo were weak.

The one thing that springs to mind is Donnie Yen's machine-gun punches. Every single one of those look like they hurt.

Originally posted by carver9
Can't believe you asked this.

Literally this:

Originally posted by cdtm
That's not an answer.

So, Carver, what is the answer?

I wonder what will happen if Sugar Ray Leonard were allowed to punch tyson or Ali 4,000 times in the face with a fast flurry of punches if he had the stamina to do it. Hell he could even kill a Gorila with that many punches in a rapid succession of punches to the face.

They will end all up with their skulls caved in, with out a nose.

Now I wonder what will some say if this were 4,000 fast mallet strikes or 4,000 fast Hulk punches. Yes that is how you can see the bias and the lack of logic on some.

Everyone gets their skulls smashed or at least KOed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The one thing that springs to mind is Donnie Yen's machine-gun punches. Every single one of those look like they hurt.



Literally this:



So, Carver, what is the answer?

He was trained on how to throw super speed flurries which means that I'm not giving him the benefit of knowing how to throw those same punches with the accuracy and power we are saying here, especially since this is something that was used by Flash (his teacher) and has been next to unimpressive when he use it

It's a punch. Go and throw a punch as hard as you can at something, then throw one at 50%power.

Which fist travelled faster?

We have comic book physics talking about how one's striking power increases the faster you travel (Barry/Wally are human level, the Zoom's are human level as well). Hell, the Zoom's create sonic booms just from snapping their fingers.

So comic book physics dictate the faster your speed,the more kinetic energy you pack into a punch.

The only way a flurry of punches WOULDN'T hurt as much, would be if you pull your fist back before it fully connects (try it). Cocking your fist back for the next blow.

But we see blood being drawn with Doomsday. Punches don't stack up; if you drum your fingers really quickly on your forearm, all those little taps don't suddenly add up to a single punch. So the punches being thrown were strong enough to make the participants bleed.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I wonder what will happen if Sugar Ray Leonard were allowed to punch tyson or Ali 4,000 times in the face with a fast flurry of punches if he had the stamina to do it. Hell he could even kill a Gorila with that many punches in a rapid succession of punches to the face.

They will end all up with their skulls caved in, with out a nose.

But the reality of Sugar Ray Leonard's stamina would mean that the power of each punch in that flurry would quickly reduce to the point of him not doing much more than simply touching them with his gloves. Hence the energy drain theory.



That would depend on how those 4,000 rapid mallet or punch strikes are consistently portrayed in the comics.

All kidding aside, of course 4,000 super punch's in a nanosecond is > 1 super punch.

Superman would beat anybody, just like he beat an amped up Cyborg Superman in Trial of Superman. Hulk, Captain Marvel, Goku and Beerus and Zeno. Anybody.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's a punch. Go and throw a punch as hard as you can at something, then throw one at 50%power.

Which fist travelled faster?]

A jab is easily 50% less powerful than a right cross, yet a right cross travels no faster than a jab.



In real life, punches in flurries are not as hard as single punches because the objective of instantaneous follow up punches prevents a fighter from fully committing to each punch. The actual velocity of a single power punch is no less than the velocity each flurry punch or any single less powerful punch. The difference in power is due to the amount of the rest of your body that is thrown into the punch.

Fast punches are fast, not because they travel faster but because they are thrown faster. Hard punches generally require the fighter to cock more, thus taking more time to get the punch off.



An eight year old can cause your lip to bleed from a punch. Without the bloody mouth, Doomsday would appear to be tanking those blows and borderline no-selling them.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It IS portrayed with consistency, in a flurry of super speed punches each punch seems less effective than a single powerful punch.

sometimes it is. speed effects are FAR less consistent than the other things you brought up though.





thanks....? you simply pointed out--again--the illogical nature of a super speed punch doing less damage than a regular punch...



it's also omnipresent that speedsters like flash or zoom or even ss don't end fights in the first picosecond. it's also omnipresent that superman-style bricks like superman, hyperion or gladiator don't dodge every punch a normal brick throws or use their speed to fight in the space of nanoseconds or blitz at light speed. those have nothing at all to do with 'quirks' in the universe and everything to do with PIS. super speed is a unique issue. everyone knows this.
you can't say flash NOT using his speed IS pis, but super speed punches doing LESS damage isn't. that....doesn't even make sense. super speed causes loads of problems. we don't need to resort to made up 'quirks' that make no sense. that's why we have the pis rule in place.



i disagree, again. tons of fights have guys standing for prolonged periods going toe-to-toe and smashing each other. but super strength portrayals are shown with far more internal consistency than speed is. not sure you're getting this because you keep drawing false analogies. the contradiction with speed punches is more like watching hulk fight thor and seeing hulk punch thor across a street into a car, then watching spiderman fight thor and punching him across the street, over the car and over the building behind the car into the next state. the weaker guy hits harder?? wut? the guy that throws punches faster hits with less force?? wut? why does it happen? pis.



going in circles as i addressed this point already. and it wasn't me who brought up opponents 'standing their ground'. i've tried to stay focused on the effects of super speed because that's what we're talking about.

a final time: there are things we accept as readers--we see thor and hulk stand toe to toe slugging it out over and over. we see planes and bridges and buildings lifted without breaking. those things stay vastly consistent throughout comics. when someone doesn't go flying, we don't care or even notice half the time. why--because those things are consistently portrayed across comics. and its pretty obvious no one cares by the lack of all the "why aren't characters sent flying in fights??1!?" discussions on the forum.

contrast that with the effects of super speed. in nearly every thread where a character has speed and a different character doesn't speed is brought up and argued. speed is such an issue that forum rules have been built and established around the idea of its use. some characters use speed CONSISTENTLY to hit harder (speedsters) yet others use it and hit...less hard? makes no sense. and speedsters don't always send people 'flying'. if hulk hitting someone doesn't send them flying every time, why would i expect a bunch of super speed punches to do so? in fact, in light of all the time super strong characters DON'T send someone flying, or only move them a small disatnce, if they did, THAT could be viewed as inconsistency. that's why your analogy is false and, more than that, is a strawman. you're comparing something that is consistent to something that isn't. the proof is the lack of concern people have over one, and the, sometimes extreme, concern people demonstrate over the other. to carry it even further--even with the lessened force of the speed punches, given superman's strength he should STILL send an opponent flying for maybe miles with the very first blow. but no one cries PIS about that. why? because of the way fights are commonly portrayed we don't even NOTICE that he doesn't send an opponent flying with the first punch. yet this is an idea you want to use as a 'logical' argument? ultimately logic fails. it's a comic. we draw the line at things that are most consistently shown, or should, imo.



sure, they could. and if you wanna go ahead and call it PIS that someone isn't sent flying by every single super punch, and advocate for it to be ruled as such, i wish you the best of luck. you do seem to have an issue with it. to be clear, it IS obviously PIS (imagine how stupid fights would look if they hit each other miles at a time, the damage they would do to surroundings), but it's of such a consistently depicted nature that we as readers easily suspend disbelief when someone isn't sent flying. we don't feel the need to fish for reasons or 'quirks' to explain it away. there are characters who have made their careers in similar manners--batman, logan. the effects of super speed though are very different. as this discussion blatantly illustrates.



and i'd have no problem with that if the physics was consistently shown across the board and across characters. we've blatantly, on panel, seen the relationship between force and acceleration holds in comics. speedsters have shown it time and time again. but when superman does it suddenly the greater the acceleration, the LESS the force output? physics breaks down because he's superman? but only sometimes. that's not a 'quirk'. that's pis, plain and simple. or cis, which i'm inclined to accept. but in a typical forum fight, where the dome is unbreakable, if he were to get someone up against it, and throw 4000 super speed punches without any pis or cis? well, that would be messy for most.

we'll not be seeing eye to eye on this issue and we've already started making circles so you're free to have the last word.

tbh i don't care enough about the issue to ask for a mod ruling regarding super speed punches, but if it continues to be such an issue i would be happy to make a case for it being PIS to pr or bada.

People!

One of Flash's rogues took an infinite mass punch. Forget which one, but it was specificially stated as an infinite mass punch. And it didn't take his head off or send him into the atmosphere.

Is anybody going to argue an imp won't do any more damage to humans then to white martians?

He did it to Professor Zoom (or Zoom, one of them),who has his own Negative Speed Force to protect him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He did it to Professor Zoom (or Zoom, one of them),who has his own Negative Speed Force to protect him.

Probably, but the one I'm thinking of happened to (I believe) a rogue, pre Nu52.

Captain Boomerang, Cold, Mirror Master.. One of them...

It definately wasn't another speedster.

Def wasn't this?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111124216/4581622-2756617154-32036.jpg

Colour me intrigued.

Yeah, wasn't that. I remember being surprised/shocked he used it, seemed like overkill.

For the life of me, I can't remember issue or storyline.. But it was Wally, for certain, because we're talking well well before the Nu52 era..

Then I would def like to see it before passing comment!

But then, I would chalk it up to the same way Batman doesn't get liquefied in fights against stronger opponents.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's a punch. Go and throw a punch as hard as you can at something, then throw one at 50%power.

Which fist travelled faster?

We have comic book physics talking about how one's striking power increases the faster you travel (Barry/Wally are human level, the Zoom's are human level as well). Hell, the Zoom's create sonic booms just from snapping their fingers.

So comic book physics dictate the faster your speed,the more kinetic energy you pack into a punch.

The only way a flurry of punches WOULDN'T hurt as much, would be if you pull your fist back before it fully connects (try it). Cocking your fist back for the next blow.

But we see blood being drawn with Doomsday. Punches don't stack up; if you drum your fingers really quickly on your forearm, all those little taps don't suddenly add up to a single punch. So the punches being thrown were strong enough to make the participants bleed.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a flurry of punches are simply taps. Just not putting their full weight behind it. Powerful enough to hurt/do damage, but not powerful enough to knock down.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
A jab is easily 50% less powerful than a right cross, yet a right cross travels no faster than a jab.



In real life, punches in flurries are not as hard as single punches because the objective of instantaneous follow up punches prevents a fighter from fully committing to each punch. The actual velocity of a single power punch is no less than the velocity each flurry punch or any single less powerful punch. The difference in power is due to the amount of the rest of your body that is thrown into the punch.

Fast punches are fast, not because they travel faster but because they are thrown faster. Hard punches generally require the fighter to cock more, thus taking more time to get the punch off.



An eight year old can cause your lip to bleed from a punch. Without the bloody mouth, Doomsday would appear to be tanking those blows and borderline no-selling them.

Except this all falls over at the speeds comic speedsters fight at.

4000 punches in a couple of seconds? That sounds really fast, but remember these are guys who are reacting at light speeds, which is so much faster than that.

IOW, 4,000 punches a second, or even in half a second, is a veritable millennium to them. So every punch can be agonised over, debated, weighed up, cocked, then fired off.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But the reality of Sugar Ray Leonard's stamina would mean that the power of each punch in that flurry would quickly reduce to the point of him not doing much more than simply touching them with his gloves. Hence the energy drain theory.



That would depend on how those 4,000 rapid mallet or punch strikes are consistently portrayed in the comics.

I am talking about sugar ray leonard having Superhuman stamina. If he were to have superhuman stamina (like in this case) he will kill tyson, Ali and. Gorilla with 4000 punches in the face. You get the concept right?


Also He is making Doomsday bleed! For crying out loud.

I've seen Thor, Sentry and Hulk have a bloody face with much less than 4000 Superman punches.

Also I would like to present this new theory to the boxing association that people does not get KO with a fast flurry of 4000 punches to the face

Originally posted by leonidas
sometimes it is. speed effects are FAR less consistent than the other things you brought up though.

It's really not. How many instances where each of a flurry of punches seeming as effective as a single hard punch can you think of. I'll give you the Supes/Lobo one even though it's not an actual "flurry", so that's one. How many others can you come up with?



Originally posted by leonidas


thanks....? you simply pointed out--again--the illogical nature of a super speed punch doing less damage than a regular punch...
Hey if you want to say that it's PIS for him to use the flurry for him to use the IMP that's a totally valid point.



Originally posted by leonidas
it's also omnipresent that speedsters like flash or zoom or even ss don't end fights in the first picosecond. it's also omnipresent that superman-style bricks like superman, hyperion or gladiator don't dodge every punch a normal brick throws or use their speed to fight in the space of nanoseconds or blitz at light speed. those have nothing at all to do with 'quirks' in the universe and everything to do with PIS. super speed is a unique issue. everyone knows this.
you can't say flash NOT using his speed IS pis, but super speed punches doing LESS damage isn't. that....doesn't even make sense. super speed causes loads of problems. we don't need to resort to made up 'quirks' that make no sense. that's why we have the pis rule in place.

No it's not. Flash DOES end fights right off a lot against cannon fodder and such. There are times when characters like Supes decides to use speed to dodge hits like against DD Rex. But actual super speed flurries where each punch seems like the character is putting all of their weight/power behind it are virtually non existent.

And when you things like "super speed is a unique issue", that IS demonstrating a double standard. One standard for super speed, another standard for everything else.


Originally posted by leonidas

i disagree, again. tons of fights have guys standing for prolonged periods going toe-to-toe and smashing each other. but super strength portrayals are shown with far more internal consistency than speed is. not sure you're getting this because you keep drawing false analogies. the contradiction with speed punches is more like watching hulk fight thor and seeing hulk punch thor across a street into a car, then watching spiderman fight thor and punching him across the street, over the car and over the building behind the car into the next state. the weaker guy hits harder?? wut? the guy that throws punches faster hits with less force?? wut? why does it happen? pis.

It's not PIS, it's logical. If a full power punch from Character A is enough to send Character B flying or even just knock him down, it would be logical for Character A to use less than full force so he can actually land a flurry of punches in rapid succession.



Originally posted by leonidas
going in circles as i addressed this point already. and it wasn't me who brought up opponents 'standing their ground'. i've tried to stay focused on the effects of super speed because that's what we're talking about.

a final time: there are things we accept as readers--we see thor and hulk stand toe to toe slugging it out over and over. we see planes and bridges and buildings lifted without breaking. those things stay vastly consistent throughout comics. when someone doesn't go flying, we don't care or even notice half the time. why--because those things are consistently portrayed across comics. and its pretty obvious no one cares by the lack of all the "why aren't characters sent flying in fights??1!?" discussions on the forum.

contrast that with the effects of super speed. in nearly every thread where a character has speed and a different character doesn't speed is brought up and argued. speed is such an issue that forum rules have been built and established around the idea of its use. some characters use speed CONSISTENTLY to hit harder (speedsters) yet others use it and hit...less hard? makes no sense. and speedsters don't always send people 'flying'. if hulk hitting someone doesn't send them flying every time, why would i expect a bunch of super speed punches to do so? in fact, in light of all the time super strong characters DON'T send someone flying, or only move them a small disatnce, if they did, THAT could be viewed as inconsistency. that's why your analogy is false and, more than that, is a strawman. you're comparing something that is consistent to something that isn't. the proof is the lack of concern people have over one, and the, sometimes extreme, concern people demonstrate over the other. to carry it even further--even with the lessened force of the speed punches, given superman's strength he should STILL send an opponent flying for maybe miles with the very first blow. but no one cries PIS about that. why? because of the way fights are commonly portrayed we don't even NOTICE that he doesn't send an opponent flying with the first punch. yet this is an idea you want to use as a 'logical' argument? ultimately logic fails. it's a comic. we draw the line at things that are most consistently shown, or should, imo.

We also see things like opponents actually go flying and stuff crumbling when a character is trying to support it. You can say that characters doing stuff that doesn't make sense to the suspension of disbelief, but by the same token flurries at seemingly less power can ALSO fall under that heading because that's the way they're portrayed 99% of the time.


Originally posted by leonidas
sure, they could. and if you wanna go ahead and call it PIS that someone isn't sent flying by every single super punch, and advocate for it to be ruled as such, i wish you the best of luck. you do seem to have an issue with it. to be clear, it IS obviously PIS (imagine how stupid fights would look if they hit each other miles at a time, the damage they would do to surroundings), but it's of such a consistently depicted nature that we as readers easily suspend disbelief when someone isn't sent flying. we don't feel the need to fish for reasons or 'quirks' to explain it away. there are characters who have made their careers in similar manners--batman, logan. the effects of super speed though are very different. as this discussion blatantly illustrates.

You're absolutely right in saying that super speed can impart power, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that punches thrown in a flurry seeming less effective is VERY consistent.



Originally posted by leonidas
and i'd have no problem with that if the physics was consistently shown across the board and across characters. we've blatantly, on panel, seen the relationship between force and acceleration holds in comics. speedsters have shown it time and time again. but when superman does it suddenly the greater the acceleration, the LESS the force output? physics breaks down because he's superman? but only sometimes. that's not a 'quirk'. that's pis, plain and simple. or cis, which i'm inclined to accept. but in a typical forum fight, where the dome is unbreakable, if he were to get someone up against it, and throw 4000 super speed punches without any pis or cis? well, that would be messy for most.

Unless I'm mistaken, the dome is also supposed to have spectators so as to encourage super heroes to fight like super heroes and not just unleash max power area attacks when they're able to. Also, I've heard nothing about the stadium being indestructible. That's the battlefield for most tourney fights, but I've never heard talk of it in a generic forum fight. That being the case they could absolutely get knocked out of the stadium and it be considered BFR unless they can get back in a timely fashion, but the opponent couldn't pursue him to follow up on the attack because that would be voluntarily leaving the battlefield(which isn't allowed).



Originally posted by leonidas
we'll not be seeing eye to eye on this issue and we've already started making circles so you're free to have the last word.

tbh i don't care enough about the issue to ask for a mod ruling regarding super speed punches, but if it continues to be such an issue i would be happy to make a case for it being PIS to pr or bada.

Ok that's cool. Always fun debating with you leo

Also, please don't interpret my short responses to your point as me being dismissive. I just didn't go into a lot of detail dissecting because you were ready to put an end to the convo so I just kinda summed up.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I am talking about sugar ray leonard having Superhuman stamina. If he were to have superhuman stamina (like in this case) he will kill tyson, Ali and. Gorilla with 4000 punches in the face. You get the concept right?

But we are talking about extremely rapid fire punches right? I mean, If Sugar Ray is able to take 4 whole days to continually punch them with full power, then yes. But if it's a case of him throwing 10 punches per second for more than 11 hours, then those punches are going to be pitty pat punches because that is the only way that he can throw punches that fast. As I said before, it takes more time to throw a power punch due to the time it takes to plant, utilize your body and follow through. The suggestion here is that Superman gives up power in favor punch volume in this instance.

And Superman doesn't have infinite stamina. You are giving superhuman stamina to a non-superhuman, but Superman's stamina is comparable to his strength and durability. So it's not unreasonable to surmise that combining mountain or planet shattering punches with superspeed would consume to much of Superman's energy, so he either does one or the other. In this case, he gives up power in favor of punch volume. This is supported by what has been consistently shown in the comics.



If Thor, Sentry and Hulk have been similarly bloodied far less punches that this, doesn't that support the weakness of Superman's punches in this instance?



I don't think that boxing commissions are concerned with that which is not realistic. A single flurry may have at most 5 or six punches.

Someone remind me of this argument when Surfer is supposed to use weakness exploitation on Superman.

Oh right, Darth will vehemently support it even if Surfer has never done it.

On matter of blitzing taking out characters.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When superman isn't using his speed? Flash gets tagged all the time by Rogues, does it means suddenly his speed is human level and all his feats are PIS? Great logic, Goku couldn't lift 40 tons and got a bloody forehead by his wife smacking him with a frying pan. All his feats are PIS now.
How many you want? Bizarro?

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16482344_BSWWTrinity-003-55.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16482350_BSWWTrinity-003-56.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16479874_BSWWTrinity-003-57.jpg

Ultraman?

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_trinity13p06zw7.jpg

Cyborg Superman?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/ManOfSteel052j.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/ManOfSteel052k.jpg

Lobo?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual04a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/AdventuresOfAnnual04b.jpg

Captain Marvel?

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_34-21.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_34-2223.jpg

Need more or is this enough to shut you up?

Lobo, Ultraman, Captain Marvel, Cyborg Superman and Bizarro are all so weak!!!

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a flurry of punches are simply taps. Just not putting their full weight behind it. Powerful enough to hurt/do damage, but not powerful enough to knock down.
Explain this.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421774-7209318529-Adven.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421775-1034488714-Adven.jpg

ermm

And remind me to ask for scans of Silver Surfer using kryptonite and red sun in a comic next time you start that bullshit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except this all falls over at the speeds comic speedsters fight at.

4000 punches in a couple of seconds? That sounds really fast, but remember these are guys who are reacting at light speeds, which is so much faster than that.

IOW, 4,000 punches a second, or even in half a second, is a veritable millennium to them. So every punch can be agonised over, debated, weighed up, cocked, then fired off.

But we consistently see the lesser power of each of those punches portrayed in the comics. Such consistent portrayal does not support each punch being weighed up, cocked and fired off. Superman appears to be hitting DD with a bunch of arm punches and Superman has affected DD more with a single punch in the past.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we consistently see the lesser power of each of those punches portrayed in the comics. Such consistent portrayal does not support each punch being weighed up, cocked and fired off. Superman appears to be hitting DD with a bunch of arm punches and Superman has affected DD more with a single punch in the past.

Hence, PIS.

Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.

As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.

If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence, PIS.

Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.

As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.

If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well.... Superman has never in his life fought or hit anything at light speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence, PIS.

Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.

As for the Stamina? He's benched the Earth weights for five days straight without rest, and without sunlight. Even for humans, try benching 10kg (let alone 50 lol) for five days without rest or food/water.

If people are worried that it's a DC thing, imagine this dialogue, but with Marvel telepaths. Does Prof X mind whammy and tell everyone to sleep as soon as the thread starts? Is that a yes? Well....
I've been told Surfer would analyze Superman in a nanosecond and use weakness exploitation to beat him.

All in a nanosecond.

@JBL: That's not what I said in that post, but ok!

If we want to hand wave it all away and say, well, that's comics...

Enter: Batman. Who takes sucker punches from pissed off, non holding back gods of war, whilst sick, and half naked.

All in a canon, mainstream comic.

Wait! It's PIS, because DC can't have Batsy smeared across the pavement! We gotta have a nice little fight scene, where both sides get some hits in!

Originally posted by JBL
Superman has never in his life fought or hit anything at light speed.
FTL ship says hi.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/4945859-jla63extrasaturatedlightspeedblitz1.jpg-original.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/4945860-jlaextrasaturatedlightspeedblitz2.jpg-original.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
FTL ship says hi.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/4945859-jla63extrasaturatedlightspeedblitz1.jpg-original.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/4945860-jlaextrasaturatedlightspeedblitz2.jpg-original.jpg

You know meant that Superman has never thrown lightspeed punches, kicks, etc.

But he disabled the ship (which was traveling at lightspeed plus or whatever) by punching things out....as it was at FTL, within the space of a few metres (few hundred meters at most).

I mean, he was deliberately aiming and targeting things, which were at FTL.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence, PIS.

Because we KNOW he can and has reacted to someone like Flash before when he's travelling far faster. So 4,000 punches in half a second is still laughably slow to someone who can fly from Pluto to Earth in the time it takes to teleport there.

So every character who flighs a light speed plus should be able to react to Superman's blows absent PIS right?



After doing that, Superman has a bead of sweat and states that he can't recall sweating before. Yet that same Superman works up a sweat speed punching Orion (to little effect):

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114723/3234094-2013-05-22+07-53-01+-+superman+%282011-%29+020-007.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GFqZcSMEwJM/UZ9Iy3vsd9I/AAAAAAAAYes/-9phUVH7-78/s1600/sm+20-01.jpg

And pre-Flashpoint Superman works up a sweat catching Flash:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103184/1920570-fastest_man_alive1.jpg

And has to catch his second wind against Konvikt:

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1c2acc4afe33c316b701a2c67da8461b-c



There is far greater PIS with Surfer, yet Superman fans tend to not acknowledge that.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
But we are talking about extremely rapid fire punches right? I mean, If Sugar Ray is able to take 4 whole days to continually punch them with full power, then yes. But if it's a case of him throwing 10 punches per second for more than 11 hours, then those punches are going to be pitty pat punches because that is the only way that he can throw punches that fast. As I said before, it takes more time to throw a power punch due to the time it takes to plant, utilize your body and follow through. The suggestion here is that Superman gives up power in favor punch volume in this instance.

And Superman doesn't have infinite stamina. You are giving superhuman stamina to a non-superhuman, but Superman's stamina is comparable to his strength and durability. So it's not unreasonable to surmise that combining mountain or planet shattering punches with superspeed would consume to much of Superman's energy, so he either does one or the other. In this case, he gives up power in favor of punch volume. This is supported by what has been consistently shown in the comics.



If Thor, Sentry and Hulk have been similarly bloodied far less punches that this, doesn't that support the weakness of Superman's punches in this instance?



I don't think that boxing commissions are concerned with that which is not realistic. A single flurry may have at most 5 or six punches.

Since you apparently has so much faith in your theory, I propose the following experiment.

1.-Take a picture of yourself.

2.-Go outside and find someone with your same physical attributes or maybe less.

3.- Tell that person to punch you in the face as fast and as hard as he can for as long as he can punch, until he gets tired. Tell him to have no regrets to punch you as long as he punches you as fast and hard, until he gets tired.

4.- Send another picture of your face after you got punched if you are still awake after he finishes with you.

5.- After you wake up from that coma I will accept your concession. If you don't get into a coma or if your face is almost near perfect after someone punched you like a 100 times in the face then I will accept your theory. 8)

Originally posted by TheHulkster
So every character who flighs a light speed plus should be able to react to Superman's blows absent PIS right?



After doing that, Superman has a bead of sweat and states that he can't recall sweating before. Yet that same Superman works up a sweat speed punching Orion (to little effect):

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114723/3234094-2013-05-22+07-53-01+-+superman+%282011-%29+020-007.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GFqZcSMEwJM/UZ9Iy3vsd9I/AAAAAAAAYes/-9phUVH7-78/s1600/sm+20-01.jpg

And pre-Flashpoint Superman works up a sweat catching Flash:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103184/1920570-fastest_man_alive1.jpg

And has to catch his second wind against Konvikt:

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1c2acc4afe33c316b701a2c67da8461b-c



There is far greater PIS with Surfer, yet Superman fans tend to not acknowledge that.

That's....not the point I was making.

I was replying to your point about his lack of stamina. When he's actually had one of the best displays of stamina we have seen in recent years.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he disabled the ship (which was traveling at lightspeed plus or whatever) by punching things out....as it was at FTL, within the space of a few metres (few hundred meters at most).

I mean, he was deliberately aiming and targeting things, which were at FTL.

Thor catches up to and engages the defenses of Scuttlebutt while it travels several times the speed of light. Can we declare Thor as being able to fight as light speed?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Since you apparently has so much faith in your theory, I propose the following experiment.

1.-Take a picture of yourself.

2.-Go outside and find someone with your same physical attributes or maybe less.

3.- Tell that person to punch you in the face as fast and as hard as he can for as long as he can punch, until he gets tired. Tell him to have no regrets to punch you as long as he punches you as fast and hard, until he gets tired.

4.- Send another picture of your face after you got punched if you are still awake after he finishes with you.

5.- After you wake up from that coma I will accept your concession. If you don't get into a coma or if your face is almost near perfect after someone punched you like a 100 times in the face then I will accept your theory. 8)

Ok, well lets do this. Find a friend who is you equal in strength. Try to rip them in half using your strength. If you fail in doing so, will you concede that Superman ripping Doomsday in half is PIS?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Ok, well lets do this. Find a friend who is you equal in strength. Try to rip them in half using your strength. If you fail in doing so, will you concede that Superman ripping Doomsday in half is PIS?

That argument is on that thread -------------------------->>>>>

Here we are talking about Superman KOing someone after they get punched 4000 times in the face, lets keep on point, please.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
You know meant that Superman has never thrown lightspeed punches, kicks, etc.
He disabled the ship's engines without throwing anything?

Originally posted by abhilegend
He disabled the ship's engines without throwing anything?

He disables a ship that is traveling at light speed. What does this have to do with combat speed? He's not shown throwing anything. Only you throwing a fit.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
You know meant that Superman has never thrown lightspeed punches, kicks, etc.

It doesn't exist. Nothing close to it.

superman doesn't have to move light speed to hit.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275309/5409983-flashkick.jpg

half of light speed=a MASSIVE amount of force. i'm curious--those arguing against the idea of pis: what if we replaced flash with superman in that scene? what would that kick be capable of doing?

Originally posted by leonidas
what would that kick be capable of doing?

Maybe it'd stop a speeding car. At best.

Of course it is PIS. Superman should able to punch with all his strengh million times in a second. He have many feats that proves he can move, react and think at those speeds.

huh, maybe. it does seem some would make the case that it would do LESS damage than if he took his time and kicked more slowly. mmm

also that scene of superman and flash speaking in the diner speaks directly to how fast superman can speak, act and perceive things if he actively CHOOSES to focus on them. here is the scene again for those who don't remember it:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/90583/can-the-flash-and-superman-converse-at-supersonic-speed

interesting, though obviously inadmissible, are the author's thoughts at the bottom. for reference light would travel about the length of 3 hydrogen ATOMS in an attosecond.

Originally posted by carver9
He was trained on how to throw super speed flurries which means that I'm not giving him the benefit of knowing how to throw those same punches with the accuracy and power we are saying here, especially since this is something that was used by Flash (his teacher) and has been next to unimpressive when he use it

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make.

It is just a matter of heavy bias because Superman.

Honestly. I don't think Superman would be awake after a flurry of 4000 Mjolnir strikes. But in this case is Superman vs some Marvel characters and the bias against Superman is showing.

Superman would clear it shit stomp this gauntlet and all of the recipients of the punches will be KOed at least, if not flat out dead or in a coma.

With that amount of punches from Superman coming in quick succession, the only possible one that would have a slim chance of even surviving is Thanos or maybe an extremely enraged Hulk but that's about it.....and yeah like i said, slim chance.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421774-7209318529-Adven.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421775-1034488714-Adven.jpg

ermm


I think the difference here is,
Against doomsday, it's more like punching a speed bag and here its like he's punching a heavy bag and using more power and speed while with doomsday he was just using speed like quick jabs.

I have no doubt that he would have knocked out doomsday if he used the same type of punches he used on Lobo.

The first scan, he's facing doomsday just like you would face a speed bag instead of slightly turned to the side which will help with punching power.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
He disables a ship that is traveling at light speed. What does this have to do with combat speed? He's not shown throwing anything. Only you throwing a fit.
Extra saturated light speed and he is scanning the ship and disabling its engine one by one.

Lulzworthy retort as always.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
He disables a ship that is traveling at light speed. What does this have to do with combat speed? He's not shown throwing anything. Only you throwing a fit.

By specifically targeting anything that looked like an engine.

That's like being handed a book, and highlighting anything that looks like a verb. You can't just blindly highlight everything.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh, maybe. it does seem some would make the case that it would do LESS damage than if he took his time and kicked more slowly. mmm

also that scene of superman and flash speaking in the diner speaks directly to how fast superman can speak, act and perceive things if he actively CHOOSES to focus on them. here is the scene again for those who don't remember it:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/90583/can-the-flash-and-superman-converse-at-supersonic-speed

interesting, though obviously inadmissible, are the author's thoughts at the bottom. for reference light would travel about the length of 3 hydrogen ATOMS in an attosecond. That's the part that "people" seem to miss. Superman doesn't just randomly flail around his arms at superspeed. His brain/perceptions can be switched, so that he can experience time on a nanosecond-to-nanosecond basis, for example. And while from his view every punch seem like a normal one, in 'our' normal time view, he delivers thousands in a fraction of time. Basically, other characters are statues whose synapses haven't even fired, while he lives in 'frozen time' and delivers punches as he likes.

yeah, there's really no way around the fact that the whole punching thing is anything but pis. /shrug

and the thing is, imo, this has nothing to do with the fact that it's superman we're talking about. this issue pertains to any character capable of reaching these levels of speed. i don't think many would contest the fact that wonder woman has light speed reflexes--ie is capable of moving her arms and hands at light speed. relativistic effects should apply to her as well.

i think it could be extended to marvel too, for those couple guys capable of light speed movement. but i honestly can't think of a time off-hand where the relative effects of speed were brought up in marvel. there must have been times, and i'm just not remembering them right now. no reason it wouldn't work the same. /shrug

Yeah, Surfer should blitz Hulk and Thor in the arena.

Val armorr is an interesting case.. He doesn't really appear to have super speed, yet he's been established literally since day one of being able to react and counter super speed, so I'm not sure you should write that off as pis..

Originally posted by leonidas

i think it could be extended to marvel too, for those couple guys capable of light speed movement. but i honestly can't think of a time off-hand where the relative effects of speed were brought up in marvel. there must have been times, and i'm just not remembering them right now. no reason it wouldn't work the same. /shrug
Makkari a couple of times and it's been happening to Monica quite often.

Only ones that I can recall.

the effects wouldn't necessarily apply to monica in the sense we're talking about with the super speed bricks. she's energy so she's not throwing punches, but you're right--we've at least seen the impact on her senses and perceptions.

not sure i know what happened with mak. i recall when he was in hyperspeed, and i think i recall a time when this slowed down for him. is he currently a light speed guy? if so, he should benefit from these effects too. and given his natural strength level his blows could have some crazy levels of impact....

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, there's really no way around the fact that the whole punching thing is anything but pis. /shrug

and the thing is, imo, this has nothing to do with the fact that it's superman we're talking about. this issue pertains to any character capable of reaching these levels of speed. i don't think many would contest the fact that wonder woman has light speed reflexes--ie is capable of moving her arms and hands at light speed. relativistic effects should apply to her as well.

i think it could be extended to marvel too, for those couple guys capable of light speed movement. but i honestly can't think of a time off-hand where the relative effects of speed were brought up in marvel. there must have been times, and i'm just not remembering them right now. no reason it wouldn't work the same. /shrug It's literally Quicksilver's entire existence.

http://i.imgur.com/smVQJGl.png
"I feel that because of the velocity"

He's used his speed punches to hurt Iron Man, High Evolutionary, etc.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11114/111147613/4147462-2.jpg

--

http://i.imgur.com/gHz5uCc.png

And so on.

This shouldn't even be in discussion, increasing the speed of your punches doesn't make your punches weaker. That's quite retarded and I can't believe people even entertain that thought, instead of saying it's PIS.

Quicksilver did what a pissed off Rogue with Wonder Man inside her (tee-hee) couldn't, in that very same comic.

lol my friend phil the wordsmith.

anyway, i know that speed explains the reason for qs's punches--what i meant was i don't recall any scenes in marvel akin to the flash scenes, where speed and its effects are broken down and explained via relativity. you know some character saying "i'm moving at near light speed. at this speed the force of my blow due to my increased mass...."

not that exactly, of course. lol but you know what i'm trying to say. i hope.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol my friend phil the wordsmith.

anyway, i know that speed explains the reason for qs's punches--what i meant was i don't recall any scenes in marvel akin to the flash scenes, where speed and its effects are broken down and explained via relativity. you know some character saying "i'm moving at near light speed. at this speed the force of my blow due to my increased mass...."

not that exactly, of course. lol but you know what i'm trying to say. i hope. Makkari started experiencing red/blue shift while moving :

http://i.imgur.com/rW4eyFz.png

Nothing about mass, but then again he was up against armed mooks.

Originally posted by leonidas
the effects wouldn't necessarily apply to monica in the sense we're talking about with the super speed bricks. she's energy so she's not throwing punches, but you're right--we've at least seen the impact on her senses and perceptions.

not sure i know what happened with mak. i recall when he was in hyperspeed, and i think i recall a time when this slowed down for him. is he currently a light speed guy? if so, he should benefit from these effects too. and given his natural strength level his blows could have some crazy levels of impact....
If Monica does it on panel I wouldn't be surprised. Punching physically at multiple times at super speed that is. She's been bumped up so much to the point where she's pulling moves out her ass like having a hard light form.

The other time with Mak is when he was amnesiac and rediscovering his power.

Also..

Superman:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111289255/5913630-infinite+mass+punch.jpg

Supergirl:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/0/7604/786977-moonbust.jpg

Flash:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291005/5277882-188ab910e3d26d431623ff71c58fa76c0f385d83_hq.jpg

And again, eyes of almost infinite mass:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11119/111198060/4400096-wally+west+is+fast+2.jpg