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Both characters at their peak. Fight takes place in the Eternal Throne Room.

The Outlander wins solidly.

Peak as in take their best showings, or peak as in their standard power in what's said to be their prime?

The latter.

I'd favor the Outlander.

ew

Vader kicks his ass

Originally posted by Sinious
The Outlander wins solidly.

Reasoning?

before being struck down*

Yes, Vader would ragdoll SoD Maul when he ragdolled ****ing Starkiller, who'd also ragdoll the HoT. On top that we have his extensive power growth after that and his canonical superiority to Dooku and arguably KF Vader, which put him in the ballpark of Yoda and RotS Palpatine, not to mention Lucas' statement about him outright possessing 80% of his Master's power.

Peak as in Knightfall?
Vader, gg.

Knightfall Vader demolishes him. RotJ Vader also wins, with some struggle I guess.

Originally posted by MythLord
with some struggle I guess.

Nah. RoTJ Vader >> Starkiller >> Shitlander.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd favor the Outlander.

Originally posted by Sinious
The Outlander wins solidly.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, Vader would ragdoll SoD Maul when he ragdolled ****ing Starkiller, who'd also ragdoll the HoT. On top that we have his extensive power growth after that and his canonical superiority to Dooku and arguably KF Vader, which put him in the ballpark of Yoda and RotS Palpatine, not to mention Lucas' statement about him outright possessing 80% of his Master's power.

Ignoring the fact that Starkiller had; fought off Imperial boarding forces, overcharged a cannon that split a Star Destroyer in half, shifted cruiser debris, guided the descent of a 300 meter ship while simultaneously shielding it from the heat of atmospheric reentry, blew apart 150 meters of ship and fought through the Kaminoan complex before facing Vader and that Vader's "ragdoll" amounted to little more then a momentary Force grip with the two still fighting evenly when Vader was "doing everything in his power to stop him."

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


https://media.tenor.com/images/65da12acb559199da0a02362e2295463/tenor.gif

reverse scaling isn't a thing. If SOD Maul is beyond the ragdoll range(though that's a laughable assertion given Vader's malachor showing) if a force user who's feats outclass Revan,t hat's just good for maul, it doesn't do squat for revan.

Disney canon has no importance when comparing PT characters to Legends characters from other eras.

SoD Maul level was a conclusion I conservatively reached for SoR/KOTFE HoTlander to make the point that even if he is only SoD Maul level, Vader being above prime Outlander becomes a ridiculous notion. What the HoT did in Act III against a more powerful Vitiate than the one that brought down a large portion of the Dark Temple (under extremely disadvantageous circumstances) and the assessment we can make for his dueling abilities from his raw power+battlemaster accolade is more than enough to compare him to the likes of Dooku, and perhaps even Vader himself.

Don't forget that this guy becomes the supreme leader of the galaxy in his twenties. His coming was prophesied 300 years before his birth. It's no surprise that he outshines Vader. Even the gigantic gap between him and Valkorion has decreased significantly.

Based on all of this, Arcann is EASILY Vader level, and the Outlander is significantly above that level. Get over yourself and realize how much more powerful the Outlander has become since early-KOTFE.

Arcann isn't even Galen level, let alone Vader. Outlander would get tooled by Dooku and impreganted by Vader.

Vader team stay taking l's, lmao.

Legends Vader's feats also outclass the outlander's as does his scaling from the likes of dooku, starkiller and Kenobi.

Reverse scaling still isn't a thing. You can't try and argue for the outlander based on the assertion that Maul's close to Vader(which itself is a laughable as fck assertion) unless you're willing to prove that the gap between Vader and maul is smaller than the one between maul and the outlander.

Just coz character A is only> charcter B does not change or affect how character A comapres to completely unrealted character C

That's....that's not what Sinious is saying.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader team stay taking l's, lmao.

Rich coming from the guy whose only comment here was to quote someone else.

----

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's....that's not what Sinious is saying.
That's exactly what he's saying:

Originally posted by Sinious
SoD Maul level was a conclusion I conservatively reached for SoR/KOTFE HoTlander to make the point that even if he is only SoD Maul level, Vader being above prime Outlander becomes a ridiculous notion.
You can't try to argue for the outlander against vader by using Maul or Dooku who aren't tied to the Outlander in anyway whatsoever.

No.

What he's saying is this:


Chapter 8 KOTFE Outlander is at least SoD Maul level.
Arcann is capable of ragdolling Chapter 8 KOTFE Outlander, who is at least SOD Maul level.
Arcann is therefore Vader level.
Outlander defeats Arcann in a close fight at the end of KOTFE, before receiving pretty immense improvement in KOTET.
Conclusion: Peak KOTET Outlander > Vader.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
No.

What he's saying is this:


Chapter 8 KOTFE Outlander is at least SoD Maul level.
Arcann is capable of ragdolling Chapter 8 KOTFE Outlander, who is at least SOD Maul level.
Arcann is therefore Vader level.
Outlander defeats Arcann in a close fight at the end of KOTFE, before receiving pretty immense improvement in KOTET.
Conclusion: Peak KOTET Outlander > Vader.

In other words, he's trying to use his head canon for how Maul compares to the outlander to make an argument for how the outlander compares to Vader. In other words; reverse scaling.

If his argument for outlander's place compared to Vader hinges on where he thinks the outlander stands in comparison to Vader's inferior, he doesn't have an argument.

All of those are flawed.

Shitlander isn't Maul level.
Arcann didn't ragdoll the Shitlander and he was weakened anyway.
Arcann isn't Vader level.
Shitlander only beat Arcann because of 2 specific amps, which he doesn't retain post Valkorion's death.
The conclusion is retarded.

I'll let Sinious respond to you guys before I bother.

I like how you approved of Syn's post saying Starkiller was exhausted when Vader ragdolled him yet wank the shit out of Arcann's force pull. I expect more from your ToR wanking Skillz.

Oh, I wasn't agreeing with the exhausted part. I like to keep people guessing.

I'm guessing whether you are serious or you got lobotomized like DC.

I'm not that prone to opening myself to getting lobotomized.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
All of those are flawed.

Shitlander isn't Maul level.
Arcann didn't ragdoll the Shitlander and he was weakened anyway.
Arcann isn't Vader level.
Shitlander only beat Arcann because of 2 specific amps, which he doesn't retain post Valkorion's death.
The conclusion is retarded.

The Outlander beats Arcann again in KOTET...and beats unchained Vaylin who is Arcann's decisive superior...

Originally posted by nfactor1995
The Outlander beats Arcann again in KOTET...and beats unchained Vaylin who is Arcann's decisive superior...

Presuming post sodomized, lightsided Arcann is in any way comparable to KotFE Arcann. Get back to me when you can prove that.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
The Outlander beats Arcann again in KOTET...and beats unchained Vaylin who is Arcann's decisive superior...
The outlander never beat Vaylin 1 v 1. You can use him performing better than arcann to suggest he's arcann, but the outlander gets jack from Vaylin who consequently happens to be the only other character in the rest of stwor you can argue to have any degree of near parity with Valkorian.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Rich coming from the guy whose only comment here was to quote someone else.


Just a frank observation.


Sinous is doing a good enough job by his lonesome backing HoTLander. But really my nig, your try-hard edginess was played out 2 years ago, get some new actually witty material already.

Ironic since it was longer than that the last time you were a relevant debater yet you still pretend you matter

Outlander

I hoped people on KMC could at least comprehend the simplest concepts. Apparently, wishful thinking got the best of me.Originally posted by Rockydonovang
In other words, he's trying to use his head canon for how Maul compares to the outlander to make an argument for how the outlander compares to Vader. In other words; reverse scaling.

If his argument for outlander's place compared to Vader hinges on where he thinks the outlander stands in comparison to Vader's inferior, he doesn't have an argument. Cut the irrelevant shit and explain to me why Vader can ragdoll SoR HoT? The comparisons made between him and Vader's inferiors were to make the nonsense in Vader > Prime Outlander more explicit. However, we can easily compare SoR Outlander to Vader. My scaling from that point on makes it so that unless you give examples of feats from Vader that very significantly outclass SoR/early-KOTFE HoT, you can't even argue that Vader is Arcann's equal, let alone claim that he is above Outlander, who in return is significantly above Arcann.

Until then, there is no debate here. Originally posted by cs_zoltan
All of those are flawed.

Shitlander isn't Maul level.
Arcann didn't ragdoll the Shitlander and he was weakened anyway.
Arcann isn't Vader level.
Shitlander only beat Arcann because of 2 specific amps, which he doesn't retain post Valkorion's death.
The conclusion is retarded. I love how there are so many people here who think that their words have some value, without anything to support them.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Ironic since it was longer than that the last time you were a relevant debater yet you still pretend you matter

Better to have it, and lost it, then to never ever have it at all. Hint - I'm the former bby, you're the latter.

Started off as unpolished a turd, and still you're shitty as ever.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Better to have it, and lost it, then to never ever have it at all. Hint - I'm the former bby, you're the latter.

Started off as unpolished a turd, and still you're shitty as ever.

Only because I wasn't a CV fegit doesn't mean I was a shit debater. But you missed the point, as usual. I don't parade myself like some kind of debating god, unlike yourself. So the irony is only on you.

You should both debate more often. It'd be fun.

I agree that what Zoltan's doing right now cannot be considered as debating.

You don't have to be on CV to obtain greatness - Nai, nor Temp either rarely, or never, frequent CV and they are prolly in my top 3.



I was a debating God, yeah. I got praise from the G.O.A.T.s - to the lowly peasants . I barely, if ever, really engage into any sort of debates these days like I used to back in the G, when I was churning out WoT for shits and giggles, and duking it out with Nova and Silver.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You don't have to be on CV to obtain greatness - Nai, nor Temp either rarely, or never, frequent CV and they are prolly in my top 3.

I came to KMC, like everyone else, to die. I only debated seriously on swtor.com where I beat Beni in a tournament. Someone who is twice the debater you are currently

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I was a debating God, yeah. I got praise from the G.O.A.T.s - to the lowly peasants . I barely, if ever, really engage into any sort of debates these days like I used to back in the G, when I was churning out WoT for shits and giggles, and duking it out with Nova and Silver.

I was praised by Silver too, big f-ucking deal. As a matter of fact he named me one of two person who has any business arguing for Mace in a Mace vs Anakin thread over at CV.

Originally posted by Sinious
I agree that what Zoltan's doing right now cannot be considered as debating.

No argument there, this pace is dying, why should I care? That doesn't make your arguments any less retarded.

Stop with the hero worship, pls

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No argument there, this pace is dying, why should I care? That doesn't make your arguments any less retarded. Again, the question is not why you should care. If you don't, then stop spamming misinformed opinions here. It doesn't make sense for you to post here at all if that's what you think and don't care enough to even slightly back your arguments. I'm sure you can see how that's retarded.

And you (someone who calls people out for being stupidly ironic and retarded), calling my arguments retarded in a post that you're acting this stupid, is actually mad ironic.

I backed my argument, you just flat out ignored it. Don't worry, I don't mind. It's KMC standard anyway.

1. SWTOR was trash, lmao.
2. Ben is my emphatic inferior.

Your arguments are irrelevant.



Only used Silver as an example to illustrate the point I was articulating- everyone and their mom has vouched for my greatness. You, not so much, lal.

Originally posted by Sinious
. Cut the irrelevant shit
Such as your opinion on how you think the outlander compares to Maul? Will do
Originally posted by Sinious and explain to me why Vader can ragdoll SoR HoT?
Because his feats and scaling far outclass the scaling and feats the outlander in his prime receives?

The comparisons made between him and Vader's inferiors were to make the nonsense in Vader > Prime Outlander more explicit.

Nah, they were just irrelevant assertions.

However, we can easily compare SoR Outlander to Vader. My scaling from that point on makes it so that unless you give examples of feats from Vader that very significantly outclass SoR/early-KOTFE HoT, you can't even argue that Vader is Arcann's equal, let alone claim that he is above Outlander, who in return is significantly above Arcann.

->Vader decades pre-prime while nearly dead has collapsed a cathedral

->Vader was >= Starkiller before growing "far more formidable" who can disintergrate a 200 m ship

-> Vader before growing "far more formidable" was more powerful than Ben Kenobi who himself was much more powerful than his ROTS counterpart who could crack, hold upright and wreck rows of 500 m megaliths

-> Vader's inferior in Dooku per being loosely comparable to AOTC Yoda shares a degree of parity or near parity with TPM Sids who happens to canonically above the Outlander's superior in Valk
-> Vader has tanked lightning while severely weakened from the most powerful sith lord of all time who is canonically vastly above the outlander for several seconds.

The outlander even of his prime has nothing that touches Vader's best feats or his best lines of scaling and hence gets destroyed. Even his superior in Vaylin is missing feats or scaling to place herself on par with Vader(her feats are sub-Starkiller frankly).

Accordingly, Vader destroys

That the Outlander is>>>>his pre-prime incarnation is meaningless until you show me what any version of the outlander has that place shim on Vader's level.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You should both debate more often. It'd be fun.

Only if a few other old debaters come back.

These newer debaters are ass.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. SWTOR was trash, lmao.
2. Ben is my emphatic inferior.

Your arguments are irrelevant.

1. Yeah, that swtor trash been humiliating you since they left the site
2. Nah, he's been rated way higher than your ancient ass the last year or so.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Only used Silver as an example to illustrate the point I was articulating- everyone and their mom has vouched for my greatness. You, not so much, lal.

Weird that every time this argument comes up you miss the point so f-ucking spectacularly. With your recent IQ lvl no wonder you are a ToR wanker.

Yes you were a way better debater than me...like 20 years ago. Nobody gives a shit, currently even f-ucking Urs and Kbro could manhandle your ass because at least they can put two post together unlike you.

1. Only someone who belongs on small bus say such a thing - oops, forgot who I was talkin to for a sec, tho.

2. The same way a J.Cole would be ranked above Rakim as of now. We all know who the real God is overall, however.

<-----





Dude, I can be a half-dead stillborn retarded monkey, with Revanchist level grammar and I would still debate circles around you, lal.

What the **** is this thread.

Anyway, Sinny makes the more convincing arguments, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Dude, I can be a half-dead stillborn retarded monkey, with Revanchist level grammar and I would still debate circles around you, lal.

Yeah, just how you debated circles around Az...oh wait.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
everyone and their mom has vouched for my greatness.

You're mediocre.

LOL. Deronn keeps taking Ls.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
What the **** is this thread.

Anyway, Sinny makes the more convincing arguments, tbh. Sinny hasn't even made an argument yet urs

Roflmao what tripe.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah, just how you debated circles around Az...oh wait.
I recall me shooting down his argument our latest dust up, yeah.

Yeah, and you also went full retard per your own admission. When rarely you do win you always take an L in the process

Gotta love that damage control, Az.

Anyway, I'm back, full-time so I plan demolishes some more in these up-and-coming days.

Great! You can start by responding to this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=639946&from=thread&pagenumber=1#post16117901

DC, beat his ass.

Lmao he's clearly struggling with effort to break a single stalagmite.

Meanwhile Vader can use telepathy to send ships into stars, survive the explosion of entire bases with barrier, crumple AT-ATS, collapse cathedrals, and lift freighters.

Its not close Vader's beaten duelists like Kenobi who stomped Maul in 3 moves, and fought multiple Jedi at once, beaten Galen/SK, Ahsoka Tano, and was considered by Sidious to be greater than Maul or Dooku in the Vader comic.

No way he loses to a scrub like Outlander who only even beat Arcann due to the ship destabilizing his footwork.

Why the f-uck do you have to turn every Vader thread into Starkiller vs Vader?

DC has announced his return. Where u at zoltan?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why the f-uck do you have to turn every Vader thread into Starkiller vs Vader?

If people tell lies I must call them out.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DC has announced his return. Where u at zoltan?

I still don't care enough to do serious debating. A few paragraphs / thread will do. Besides DC said he returns several times now, but never actually did.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
->Vader decades pre-prime while nearly dead has collapsed a cathedral

->Vader was >= Starkiller before growing "far more formidable" who can disintergrate a 200 m ship

-> Vader before growing "far more formidable" was more powerful than Ben Kenobi who himself was much more powerful than his ROTS counterpart who could crack, hold upright and wreck rows of 500 m megaliths

-> Vader's inferior in Dooku per being loosely comparable to AOTC Yoda shares a degree of parity or near parity with TPM Sids who happens to canonically above the Outlander's superior in Valk
-> Vader has tanked lightning while severely weakened from the most powerful sith lord of all time who is canonically vastly above the outlander for several seconds. 1) Cathedral feat doesn't prove that he can ragdoll SoR Revan, despite being pre-prime and under harsh circumstances (not unlike HoT's feat).

2) Didn't Ant prove that this feat is much less impressive than how it's wanked? In any case, this feat by itself at best proves that Vader can also ragdoll SoR/-early-kotfe Outlander, which is Arcann level. Not peak Outlander level.

3) Don't mention this to me until you respond to Skillz. This feat is being seriously questioned right now.

4) Yooku scaling is complete BS. Sidious and his more or less equal Yoda are both tiers above Dooku. Sidious' performance agaist the Zabrak brothers and Dooku's performance against Talzin makes this even more obvious. I consider this topic a waste of time at this point.

5) This is a terrible argument. The entire manner of Sidious' death in ROTJ makes little sense as a whole, but to claim that Vader can tank his lightning because of this scene where Vader is going full sacrifice mode, when we have countless angles to establish a gigantic gap between Vader and Sidious (and Vader's particular vulnerability against Sidious' lightning) is simply not gonna convince anyone.

Actually, I'm waiting for you to show me actual >>Arcann level showings from Vader. Keep in mind that Yoda and Luke struggled with (a most likely less potent) DK's nexus and Kyle Katarn barely sensed his connection to the Force because of it. The Hero solo'd through the capital and then defeated Vitiate's most elite guards, exhausting himself in result and giving enough time to Vitiate to gather more power in contrast. Since he is bringing down a huge portion of the temple down and is at least considerably more powerful than that during the fight, HoT's victory against him way before his prime becomes an extremely impressive showing.

can someone please address the argument that sk was exhausted? I'm not really sure why that wouldn't invalidate vader's ragdoll.

Vader held back anyway and Sam confirmed that Vader can shit stomp Starkiller.

Originally posted by Azronger
Great! You can start by responding to this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=639946&from=thread&pagenumber=1#post16117901

Someone wants to die young.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Someone wants to die young.
Az can't die soon enough, tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader held back anyway and Sam confirmed that Vader can shit stomp Starkiller.

Haden confirmed it too.

Originally posted by slayne
Az can't die soon enough, tbh.

What did I ever do to you?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Someone wants to die young.

It's not that I want to but I wouldn't mind it. Now will you do it?

1. Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.

And it really doesn't address that Starkiller was exhausted

2. Post quote please?

I'll also add this was a vader far from his prime, so whether or not he can outright ragdoll starkiller as of tfu doesn't change vader is much more powerful than starkiller is

Originally posted by Azronger
What did I ever do to you?
You're a filthy Sheevite

Originally posted by Ursumeles

So this thread is Arcann vs Maul?

I've already explained my reason for bringing Maul into this, as he served as a mere example. One I have abandoned a couple pages ago. Keep up.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's not that I want to but I wouldn't mind it. Now will you do it?

My interest in the debate is pretty much dead honesty, but if you want it bad enough - lets do this.

^ @Azronger

Can't edit my other post, ffs.

His relationship and control over HoTlander is not comparable to Vaylin*

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader held back anyway

Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
and Sam confirmed that Vader can shit stomp Starkiller.

Not a canonical source.

Originally posted by Azronger
Haden confirmed it too.

So I guess Kun > DE Sidious now.

And Novel Vitiate > Sidious.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.

And it really doesn't address that Starkiller was exhausted

2. Post quote please?

I'll also add this was a vader far from his prime, so whether or not he can outright ragdoll starkiller as of tfu doesn't change vader is much more powerful than starkiller is

1. As pointed out in the response to DC he's canonically confirmed to be going all out.

Going to need evidence from you for why prime Vader is equal to Starkiller let alone greater.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And Novel Vitiate > Sidious.

Yeah. I mean, if an author/creator has more authority then C canon third person statements SWTOR Vitiate > Kun > DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Sinious
I've already explained my reason for bringing Maul into this, as he served as a mere example. One I have abandoned a couple pages ago. Keep up.
Hey, I need some way to procrastinate on replying to you

Regardless, as one argument a day keeps KMC awake, I'll address your argument now
Originally posted by Sinious

1) Cathedral feat doesn't prove that he can ragdoll SoR Revan, despite being pre-prime and under harsh circumstances (not unlike HoT's feat).

1. The outlander doesn't get scaling from SOR Revan, so I'm assuming you meant to say a version of the Outlander. I'll repeat, what has the Outlander done that's remotely comparable?

2. The Hot strained to pull a single part of the ceiling, Vader brought down a cathedral, the feats aren't comparable.

Originally posted by Sinious
2) Didn't Ant prove that this feat is much less impressive than how it's wanked? In any case, this feat by itself at best proves that Vader can also ragdoll SoR/-early-kotfe Outlander, which is Arcann level. Not peak Outlander level.

Want ant did was make 2 baseless assertions never stated or implied anywhere:

1. Vader caught Starkiller off guard(in actuality, Starkiller attacked Vader)
2. Starkiller broke out of Vader's grip(in actuality Vader threw him away, like a ragdoll)

3. The only actual context that can agued to apply here is that Starkiller was exhausted. Luckily I never said anywhere that TFU Vader could outright ragdoll Starkiller. Per authorial intent and Starkiller's own admission, Vader is better which is sufficient given this Vader had yet to grow "far more formidable".

4. Regardless, given that even peak Outlander has done nothing rivalling Starkiller's best showings, I'd love for you to back up this assertion.

5.
Originally posted by Sinious
3) Don't mention this to me until you respond to Skillz. This feat is being seriously questioned right now.

I've addressed most of Skills argument regarding the feat with my counter to nfactor, if you have a problem with this scaling, you're welcome to bring it up on the Revan vs Mace thread and wait in line for a response.
Originally posted by Sinious
4) Yooku scaling is complete BS. Sidious and his more or less equal Yoda are both tiers above Dooku. Sidious' performance agaist the Zabrak brothers and Dooku's performance against Talzin makes this even more obvious. I consider this topic a waste of time at this point.

1. I didn't mention rots sids, I mentioned TPM Sids

2. The Zabrak brothers aren't relevant here. They get nothing from scaling to Dooku in anyway and hence render your point moot.
3. Talzin possessing Dooku over a substantial period of time hwen he is defenseless proves nothing, your point is moot.

4. Dooku and Yoda being in separate tiers doesn't make sidious a tier above Dooku

5. I hope you have a better counter here than an appeal to incredulity based on irrelevant observations.
Originally posted by Sinious
5) This is a terrible argument. The entire manner of Sidious' death in ROTJ makes little sense as a whole, but to claim that Vader can tank his lightning because of this scene where Vader is going full sacrifice mode, when we have countless angles to establish a gigantic gap between Vader and Sidious (and Vader's particular vulnerability against Sidious' lightning) is simply not gonna convince anyone.


1. Prove Vader was amped and I'll drop the point. I'm heard multiple times mentions of a quote indicating Vader had oneness, but I've yet to see the actual quote.
Originally posted by Sinious
Actually, I'm waiting for you to show me actual >>Arcann level showings from Vader.

Originally posted by Sinious
Posted them, You've yet to post anything comparable for Arcann
Keep in mind that Yoda and Luke struggled with (a most likely less potent) DK's nexus and Kyle Katarn barely sensed his connection to the Force because of it. The Hero solo'd through the capital and then defeated Vitiate's most elite guards, exhausting himself in result and giving enough time to Vitiate to gather more power in contrast. Since he is bringing down a huge portion of the temple down and is at least considerably more powerful than that during the fight, HoT's victory against him way before his prime becomes an extremely impressive showing.

That the hot struggled to pull down a single part of said celing would lead me to believe that HOT's victory didn't come vy virtue of power. Regardless, the feat doesn't compare to Starkiller disintegrating a ship

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Starkiller broke out of Vader's grip(in actuality Vader threw him away, like a ragdoll)
3. The only actual context that can agued to apply here is that Starkiller was exhausted. Luckily I never said anywhere that TFU Vader could outright ragdoll Starkiller. Per authorial intent and Starkiller's own admission, Vader is better which is sufficient given this Vader had yet to grow "far more formidable".


2. Kbro. You yourself note that Vader would have been doing all in his power to incapacitate Starkiller with TK.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader holding back is fine, but that doesn't mean he was refraining himself when he was trying to ragdoll him If Vader's goal is to capture, not kill, he'd logically put as much power as possible in incapping with tk which is much less risky than trying to incap someone with a lightsaber.

If that's your stance then it indicates that Vader is incapable of maintaining a Force grip on Starkiller long enough to incapacitate him before he would've escaped.

3. Can you explain to me why authorial intent trumps a third person canonical statement? And then, once you've done that, why you still hold DE Sidious above Exar Kun despite statements by the author of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi.

@ Rocky
I'll reply to that terrible response of yours later (no offense), but I want to address your comments on Yooku scaling now.

1) Yoda is on par with ROTS Sidious, not TPM Sidious, lmfao.

2) Zabraks are relevant because Savage and Ventress fought Dooku and Dooku had trouble overwhelming them. It was far from a stomp, and Sidious (Yoda's equal) on the other hand completely humiliates the Zabraks, who are a superior duo. Evidently, Sidious and Yoda are above Dooku's level.

3) A weakened Talzin managed to take over Dooku instantly. He wasn't defenseless. What are you even talking about here? LOL

4) As I've explained, this is wrong.

5) Ain't that ironic?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
2. Kbro. You yourself note that Vader would have been doing all in his power to incapacitate Starkiller with TK.



If that's your stance then it indicates that Vader is incapable of maintaining a Force grip on Starkiller long enough to incapacitate him before he would've escaped.

3. Can you explain to me why authorial intent trumps a third person canonical statement? And then, once you've done that, why you still hold DE Sidious above Exar Kun despite statements by the author of both Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi.
1. Vader throwing Starkiller away doesn't at all mean Starkiller was about to break his grip which is again, baseless speculation. As it is, force users commonly incapacitate opponents by choking them and then throwing them. Unfortunately for Vader, Starkiller stuck a landing.

The wii version renders any speculation you have about the matter moot.
2. Post this c anon statement? And whether or not Vader was holding back doesn't change that Vader was superior, unless there's some c canon statement you have saying otherwise.

3.
A. Because one is just an opinion, the other is an explanation for what happened in what happened in what they have authority over

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader throwing Starkiller away doesn't at all mean Starkiller was about to break his grip which is again, baseless speculation. As it is, force users commonly incapacitate opponents by choking them and then throwing them. Unfortunately for Vader, Starkiller stuck a landing.

The wii version renders any speculation you have about the matter moot.
2. Post this c anon statement? And whether or not Vader was holding back doesn't change that Vader was superior, unless there's some c canon statement you have saying otherwise.

3.
A. Because one is just an opinion, the other is an explanation for what happened in what happened in what they have authority over

1. Then why would Vader have thrown him away if, as you mentioned, his goal was to incapacitate Starkiller? Why wouldn't he have choked him out till he was incapacitated or smashed him against the floor until he went unconscious rather then release his grip on him?

What speculation of mine does the Wii version render moot?

2. "Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked." - The Force Unleashed II.

He was superior to a weakened version in the Force and inferior as a lightsaber combatant.

3. Not when it contradicts objective C canon quotes. Unless you have something indicating otherwise.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Then why would Vader have thrown him away if, as you mentioned, his goal was to incapacitate Starkiller? Why wouldn't he have choked him out till he was incapacitated or smashed him against the floor until he went unconscious rather then release his grip on him?

What speculation of mine does the Wii version render moot?

2. "Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked." - The Force Unleashed II.

He was superior to a weakened version in the Force and inferior as a lightsaber combatant.

3. Not when it contradicts objective C canon quotes. Unless you have something indicating otherwise.

1, Because then there wouldn't be a fight. Plot's a thing.

2. That Vader couldn't have maintained his grip for a long time.

3. Hmm, was this when Starkiller was enraged?

4. Was Starkiller not rage amped for part of the fight?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1, Because then there wouldn't be a fight. Plot's a thing.

2. That Vader couldn't have maintained his grip for a long time.

3. Hmm, was this when Starkiller was enraged?

4. Was Starkiller not rage amped for part of the fight?

1. Plot isn't a valid excuse for a character doing something illogical.

2. I'm not arguing that Vader couldn't/didn't do that in the Wii version. I'm arguing that trying to make that argument off the PS3 Xbox version is not viable.

3. Nope.

4. Not as far as I'm aware.

Originally posted by Sinious

1) Yoda is on par with ROTS Sidious, not TPM Sidious, lmfao.

2) Zabraks are relevant because Savage and Ventress fought Dooku and Dooku had trouble overwhelming them. It was far from a stomp, and Sidious (Yoda's equal) on the other hand completely humiliates the Zabraks, who are a superior duo. Evidently, Sidious and Yoda are above Dooku's level.

3) A weakened Talzin managed to take over Dooku instantly. He wasn't defenseless. What are you even talking about here? LOL

4) As I've explained, this is wrong.

5) Ain't that ironic?

1) ROTS Yoda. Not AOTC Yoda who between AOTC and ROTS, overcame a massive confrontation in YR letting go of his attachment to Dooku and then in season 6 perfected his spirit.

2) In that arc where Ventress managed to ragdoll Anakin+Obi(both who've beaten her 1 v 1) while weakened and where Oppress managed to simultaneously drive back both despite Kenobi alone outclassing the fck out of Oppress on florrum?

I take that with a grain of salt, especially considering how Dooku had the advantage vs a vastly superior duo in Season 6 Kenobi+Anakin

3) Ah, my bad, I thought you were referencing Sod. Yes, Talzin was able to take over dooku, with the help of a ritual with the aid of an object Revan doesn't have here. The point's still moot. Talzin has never legitimately dominated Dooku in any legitimate way.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Plot isn't a valid excuse for a character doing something illogical.

2. I'm not arguing that Vader couldn't/didn't do that in the Wii version. I'm arguing that trying to make that argument off the PS3 Xbox version is not viable.

3. Nope.

4. Not as far as I'm aware.
1. I don't need an excuse when the wii version outright confirms that Vader could. I do hope you're willing to apply this to other fights as well.
2. Good thing there's two version's then
3. Hmm? I wanna hear what AZ has to say
4. AZ argued that, some text for what he's referring to would be nice. I mean, it would make sense given that sk thought Vader had just killed Juno. He certainly seemed angry about her death from the cutscenes for what it's worth

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I don't need an excuse when the wii version outright confirms that Vader could. I do hope you're willing to apply this to other fights as well.
2. Good thing there's two version's then
3. Hmm? I wanna hear what AZ has to say
4. AZ argued that, some text for what he's referring to would be nice. I mean, it would make sense given that sk thought Vader had just killed Juno. He certainly seemed angry about her death from the cutscenes for what it's worth

1. I'm not arguing with the events that occur in the Wii version. Just your logic for why that would be the case in the other versions.

2. Same as above. ^

3. Sounds fine to me.

4. He knew she was still alive per the novel.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. I'm not arguing with the events that occur in the Wii version. Just your logic for why that would be the case in the other versions.

2. Same as above. ^

3. Sounds fine to me.

4. He knew she was still alive per the novel.
Yea alright, good discussion, I'll leave you to AZ's wrath

time to start my response to extreme4skillz I suppose

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not a canonical source.

I'm sure your retarded interpretations of the fight is more legit than the word of the lead writer of the game itself

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
time to start my response to extreme4skillz I suppose

Stop disrespecting my name

Peak Vader (Knightfall) wins.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Stop disrespecting my name extreme4supreme?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm sure your retarded interpretations of the fight is more legit than the word of the lead writer of the game itself

Nah. But the third person canonical source that contradicts his statement is.