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He could wander "the Multiverse" a few seconds !

Is he fastest ever ?

At one point he does go so fast that the Spectre himself had to step in and stop him. But then again, in the same comic Supergirl goes the same speed I think.

Though Wally West at his most crazy is up there as well when it comes to the fastest beings in comics.

No.

Originally posted by Surtur
At one point he does go so fast that the Spectre himself had to step in and stop him. But then again, in the same comic Supergirl goes the same speed I think.


Supergirl arguably went even faster.

She was travelling at Superman's barrier-breaking speed AFTER hitting Warworld and being rendered unconscious. Or possibly ... worse.


The episode you're referring to is an early 1980s story where the Supercousins are taking on Mongul and Warworld. It's featured in a "DC Comics Presents" issue. I don't remember the specific number; Googling with the information given here should yield that.

It's not clear pure speed is what's involved here.

The final barrier Superman intends to cross in his rush to save Kara ...
is the barrier separating life from death.


The attempt on Warworld, though successful, killed Supergirl.

Superman's chase, rebuffing, fight with Spectre, encounter with The Presence, and pleading on Kara's behalf are ultimately a bid to resurrect her.


On the other hand, we're talking about a company that has literally personified Death as a speedster called Black Racer. A villain that the Speedforce-possessing post-Crisis-On-Infinite-Earths Flash has managed to survive by outrunning.

Speed force Flash would probably be your all-time fastest, Photon.

But the pre-Crisis SuperCousins DO make him work for it.

I disagree.

Supergirl was not going faster.

Superman was CATCHING up to her, therefore Superman was going faster. It is nonsense to think that she was going faster or at equal speed when Superman was catching up to her. And Superman was even gaining more and more speed, that is why the spectre interfere IIRC Superman almost reached her when the spectre showed up.

And I believe she wasn't going under her own speed, but was blasted by the force of the missile.

In terms of raw speed feats, it's hard to argue against flying to a long dead universe between a sneeze. That's kind of hard to top.

Originally posted by cdtm


In terms of raw speed feats, it's hard to argue against flying to a long dead universe between a sneeze. That's kind of hard to top.

Doubtless, though I don't recall that happening in this particular story.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I disagree.

Supergirl was not going faster.

Superman was CATCHING up to her, therefore Superman was going faster. It is nonsense to think that she was going faster or at equal speed when Superman was catching up to her. And Superman was even gaining more and more speed, that is why the spectre interfere IIRC Superman almost reached her when the spectre showed up.

This is one case where you cannot ignore what I said, how I said it, and the overall context of the argument and think you're actually responding to it. Supergirl was unconscious or worse at every point in time after her head-on collision with WarWorld. So she had no ability on her own to maintain her speed or increase it. Even comic book physics tells us she should gradually slow down if, like Superman, she is breaking barrier after barrier.

The chart would look something like:

Supergirl before impacting Warworld >= Supergirl after impacting Warworld
Supergirl after impacting WarWorld >= Supergirl after Post-WarWorld (PW) Barrier #1
Supergirl after PW Barrier #1 >= Supergirl after PW Barrier #2 (PWB2)
Supergirl after PWB2 >= Supergirl after PWB3
Supergirl PWB3 >= Supergirl PWB4 ...

And so on.

Eventually, though, Supergirl "breaks the bonds of infinity itself".
We know this because it is only when Superman does the same thing that he can finally directly SEE his cousin (up to this point Superman has been using his best triangulation/tracking ability and PRAYING he was going in the right direction).

At this point it is heavily implied Superman is no longer in the dimension of normal Space/Time. The bloggers who originally introduced me to this story took note:

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/35786473_image.jpg

Originally posted by Surtur
Spectre himself had to step in and stop him.
But then again, in the same comic Supergirl goes the same speed I think.



What Surtur defensibly is recalling here actually took place in TWO subsequent issues, not one comic.

Since we're giving it discussion level treatment, and I took the time and trouble to re-Google it, I'm including links to reviews of the story that first introduced me to it. The material in question is DC Comics Presents #s 28 and 29:


http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.com/2011/11/review-dc-comics-presents-28.html?m=1

http://dcbloodlines.blogspot.com/2011/11/review-dc-comics-presents-29.html?m=1

Ahhh!
Pre crisis era, where even by comics standards, **+% didn't make sense

Superman is not the fastest. Still goes to flash as he is able to steal kinetic speed of others. It would need to be Flash or Zoom

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is one case where you cannot ignore what I said, how I said it, and the overall context of the argument and think you're actually responding to it. Supergirl was unconscious or worse at every point in time after her head-on collision with WarWorld. So she had no ability on her own to maintain her speed or increase it. Even comic book physics tells us she should gradually slow down if, like Superman, she is breaking barrier after barrier.

The chart would look something like:

Supergirl before impacting Warworld >= Supergirl after impacting Warworld
Supergirl after impacting WarWorld >= Supergirl after Post-WarWorld (PW) Barrier #1
Supergirl after PW Barrier #1 >= Supergirl after PW Barrier #2 (PWB2)
Supergirl after PWB2 >= Supergirl after PWB3
Supergirl PWB3 >= Supergirl PWB4 ...

And so on.

Eventually, though, Supergirl "breaks the bonds of infinity itself".
We know this because it is only when Superman does the same thing that he can finally directly SEE his cousin (up to this point Superman has been using his best triangulation/tracking ability and PRAYING he was going in the right direction).

At this point it is heavily implied Superman is no longer in the dimension of normal Space/Time. The bloggers who originally introduced me to this story took note:

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/35786473_image.jpg

I don't know if I am following you, but you said " arguably she was going faster than him"

How is that "arguably she was going faster than him" if he is catching up to her? Doesn't that mean that he has to actually go faster in order for him to catch up to her?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I don't know if I am following you, but you said " arguably she was going faster than him"

How is that "arguably she was going faster than him" if he is catching up to her? Doesn't that mean that he has to actually go faster in order for him to catch up to her?

If Kara were going at a constant speed or even increasing her speed, yes, it would make sense to say that Superman flew faster than Kara.

What makes it arguable is this:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35789107_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35789108_image.jpg

Superman, following the same path as Kara, runs into winds blowing against him and must break a series of barriers.
Superman is actively speeding and accelerating, consciously fighting to reach his cousin.
Supergirl, having to have overcome the same resistance, and break those same barriers was not. For she was either knocked out or dead throughout the entire ordeal, following her plunge through WarWorld. Her body was going only on leftover momentum from her previous thrust. It reasonably would have slown down from what we're shown in the 2 panels above, for even those "ethereal winds" blowing past Superman's face were enough to bring tears to his eyes and make him wonder how much more he could endure, and he STILL needed to produce "a surge of speed that would reduce a lesser being to paste" before he could break the barrier the unconscious DE-accelerating Kara had already broken -- the bonds of infinity itself. Only after this, only after penetrating this particular barrier, does he FINALLY see still unconscious (possibly dead) Kara ahead of him.

Superman caught up to someone who was slowing down.
And only after landing in a realm where time and space appear to act differently.
At least differently enough that Superman was aware he was in a place where things seemed very askew.

What ever makes you sleep. Does not make any bit of sense.

Barriers were getting broken as kara broke a barrier so does Superman, is not like Kara broke the barrier and then Superman get a free pass because Kara already broke the barrier. He also has to brake the barrier.

Hey but look I know you are a big Superman detractor and a hardcore feminist so for me to spent valuable time in debating you on such a trivial thing from science fiction it does not make so much sense.

So you are welcome to think what ever mental gymnastics you can come up with. I don't agree with you.

Don't take me wrong, a small argument here and there does not take a lot of time , but to actually have to research to prove a point , that I won't do it at this time, my friend. But thanks for the input.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
What ever makes you sleep.

The English form is "whatever HELPS you sleep".
And this actually cuts into that time.
But on certain nights the loss is negligible.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Barriers were getting broken as kara broke a barrier so does Superman, is not like Kara broke the barrier and then Superman get a free pass because Kara already broke the barrier. He also has to brake the barrier.



Is there something in my previous messages that makes you think im arguing against that?

Prob the painkillers

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I know you are a big Superman detractor and a hardcore feminist so for me to spent valuable time in debating you on such a trivial thing from science fiction it does not make so much sense.


I can understand the first charge, somewhat.
You are very nearly in the class of Superman worshipper, think he is the first and best hero in nearly always, and think stories should always be structured to present him in that light, yes?

I feel no compulsion to say that of him when I see little evidence of that being true. Perhaps at one point some number of years ago it was, but once is not now. Time brings about a change, though; maybe DC has a "renaissance" planned for him.

The 2nd charge leaves me mystified, unless you are still shocked that I actually liked the way CWs Supergirl versus Superman fight went down.
Simply put, I've seen too many real-life cases of women proving themselves physically formidable, yes, sometimes even stronger than larger guys, to think portraying that rare reality something shaming and to be avoided depicting in various media.


In fact, I'll admit I'd like to see a world where enough women believed in themselves to make feats like the following nearly commonplace...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQRoc4XjuCn/?hl=en

Wally's feat of beating instantainious trabel trumps the best Superman has so NOOOooooooo

I think going back in time through speed alone is more uber than stopping time or beating instant teleportation but maybe that's just me.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I can understand the first charge, somewhat.
You are very nearly in the class of Superman worshipper, think he is the first and best hero in nearly always, and think stories should always be structured to present him in that light, yes?

I feel no compulsion to say that of him when I see little evidence of that being true. Perhaps at one point some number of years ago it was, but once is not now. Time brings about a change, though; maybe DC has a "renaissance" planned for him.

The 2nd charge leaves me mystified, unless you are still shocked that I actually liked the way CWs Supergirl versus Superman fight went down.
Simply put, I've seen too many real-life cases of women proving themselves physically formidable, yes, sometimes even stronger than larger guys, to think portraying that rare reality something shaming and to be avoided depicting in various media.


In fact, I'll admit I'd like to see a world where enough women believed in themselves to make feats like the following nearly commonplace...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQRoc4XjuCn/?hl=en

1 .- I am not a superman worshiper it just happens that I have read more superman comics than you and I know of instances that you might be unaware of.

I grow up with the idea of being inspired by Superman to try to reach your best self, like Goku or Captain America, characters I like too btw.

Some people get inspired by Logans being a bad boy, hulks rage, batman's darkness. I like that of Superman when I was growing up. Not sure if I see that now a days to be honest.

You might have changed your mind about him but it doesn't really show as I have never seen you make a pro superman argument, your arguments are always against.

As for the second part about being a hardcore feminist.

It is just the impression I get from the posts I read from you.

I am not against equality i am up for it but in my opinion you are not as the impresion I get from your post is that you are more pro woman than pro man, not really neutral, usually you give the kudos to the female, specially if is a female vs superman.

Now, You might be a completely diferent person IRL but the impression I get from your posts is that you are a Superman detractor and a harcore feminist. Maybe you are not, but that is what your posts make me believe.

Originally posted by beatboks
Wally's feat of beating instantainious trabel trumps the best Superman has so NOOOooooooo

Didn't that involved amping?

When it comes to speed I don't think I have seen a feat like this one, except like the one you mentioned of the Flaah but that IIRC had wally amping or tapping on extra power..

Don't know if the OP meant speed under own power and if amps were allowed

Superman has no real speed to speak of, regardless of the version.

His speed is generated by residual energy of you white knighting Carver everyday.

F*ck.

Then he exceeds Speed Force levels...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
F*ck.

Then he exceeds Speed Force levels...

exactly

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe


I think going back in time through speed alone is more uber than stopping time or beating instant teleportation but maybe that's just me.



mmm


To be fair, the way I've seen such maneuvers handled may have left me with a lack of appreciation for Superman's technique ...

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


I have never seen you make a pro superman argument, your arguments are always against.


"Always" is easy to disprove. Simply google "bluewaterrider Superman".
The very 2nd hit will be "Abomination versus Superman" where I argue for Superman winning. So there's no such thing as "always".


I'll grant that I OFTEN argue against Superman, though.
Moreover, I generally don't bother acknowledging things that I think will be obvious to the average person and focus instead on trying to understand what the person I'm conversing with might have in their mind.

For instance, I think Superman versus Ironman would be a win for Superman.
I, like you, consider that result practically a foregone conclusion. So I myself wouldn't bother posting a thread like that. And if the poster of such a thread made it clear they were talking about standard comic book Iron Man versus Superman, I wouldn't bother posting in such a thread, either.
Why would I waste the time?
Who DOESN'T know who would win the generic form of that battle?

However, if I'm reasonably certain the poster has special circumstances in mind that he either doesn't KNOW make the circumstance he's thinking of special, and/or doesn't know how to express himself and has an idea that I think is viable and reasonably arguable, then I don't mind helping the poster present and develop their argument, curious as to whose case is actually stronger.

Accordingly, if you search "Iron Man versus Superman" you will see me wondering aloud if the original poster (OP) of that thread might have in mind "Extremis" Iron Man, which possessed nanotechnology visually similar to the kind we saw DEFEAT DCnU Superman in the early issues of the 2011-era reboot.
You'll also see me presenting some of Stark's "Buster" armor specials, which have enabled him to take on heavy hitters all the way up to World War Hulk and King Thor, or his remarkable showing against Magneto.

Then, too this ignores the portrayals in other media of the character (though I don't think the Avengers movie had yet been released, which shows Iron Man giving a reasonably good account of himself against Thor, a character consistently ranked as a Superman peer).

None of that is detraction from Superman, but it's easy to see how fans of the character can misconstrue that as such. You are far less "neutral" than you believe, Salsa.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Always" is easy to disprove. Simply google "bluewaterrider Superman".
The very 2nd hit will be "Abomination versus Superman" where I argue for Superman winning. So there's no such thing as "always".


I'll grant that I OFTEN argue against Superman, though.
Moreover, I generally don't bother acknowledging things that I think will be obvious to the average person and focus instead on trying to understand what the person I'm conversing with might have in their mind.

For instance, I think Superman versus Ironman would be a win for Superman.
I, like you, consider that result practically a foregone conclusion. So I myself wouldn't bother posting a thread like that. And if the poster of such a thread made it clear they were talking about standard comic book Iron Man versus Superman, I wouldn't bother posting in such a thread, either.
Why would I waste the time?
Who DOESN'T know who would win the generic form of that battle?

However, if I'm reasonably certain the poster has special circumstances in mind that he either doesn't KNOW make the circumstance he's thinking of special, and/or doesn't know how to express himself and has an idea that I think is viable and reasonably arguable, then I don't mind helping the poster present and develop their argument, curious as to whose case is actually stronger.

Accordingly, if you search "Iron Man versus Superman" you will see me wondering aloud if the original poster (OP) of that thread might have in mind "Extremis" Iron Man, which possessed nanotechnology visually similar to the kind we saw DEFEAT DCnU Superman in the early issues of the 2011-era reboot.
You'll also see me presenting some of Stark's "Buster" armor specials, which have enabled him to take on heavy hitters all the way up to World War Hulk and King Thor, or his remarkable showing against Magneto.

Then, too this ignores the portrayals in other media of the character (though I don't think the Avengers movie had yet been released, which shows Iron Man giving a reasonably good account of himself against Thor, a character consistently ranked as a Superman peer).

None of that is detraction from Superman, but it's easy to see how fans of the character can misconstrue that as such. You are far less "neutral" than you believe, Salsa.

Yes. I am probably bias because I happen to have read more Superman comics than you and know things about superman you don't, like Delta, Abhi, Philo or Juntai. And I am stating this as a fact IIRC accepted by you. As we read most of Superman's books.

So pardon us for our bias of showing you evidence that We didn't write.

And Often you are against Superman maybe not all the time but I hardly recall any post from you that is not like that.

Often and almost always has little or no difference
Let me give an example:

I often drink and I am am alcaholic

I almost always drink an I am an alcaholic

See? Just replace the word alcaholic with Superman antogonist, hater or detractor.

Also we should be back on topic instead of me explaining the obvious over and over again.

So consider this matter over.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El



As for the second part about being a hardcore feminist.

It is just the impression I get from the posts I read from you.

I am not against equality i am up for it but in my opinion you are not as the impression I get from your post is that you are more pro woman than pro man, not really neutral, usually you give the kudos to the female, specially if is a female vs superman.




mmm

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35798877_image.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35798877_image.jpg

That kind of implies women can't compete with men on a level playing field, though..

Yeah, Trish Stratus "could" beat HHH, if The Game doesn't get to use his arms and legs (Actually, he still might win even with those handicaps.. )

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Yes. I am probably bias because I happen to have read more Superman comics than you and know things about superman you don't, like Delta, Abhi, Philo or Juntai. And I am stating this as a fact IIRC accepted by you. As we read most of Superman's books.

So pardon us for our bias of showing you evidence that We didn't write.

And Often you are against Superman maybe not all the time but I hardly recall any post from you that is not like that.



Progress. Already we've moved from you speaking in absolutes to making qualified statements.

As for bias, it's NOT just related to amount of reading in the group you're talking about, including yourself. Delta's is so well known that you yourself sought to dissuade him from being a judge in a battlezone, explaining he would be perceived as biased owing to his reputation. I don't recall any interaction with this "Juntai" of yours, he's probably not a frequent poster. Not even gonna bother mentioning one of the names on your list, but as for "Philo" (aka Philosophia), even HE recognizes the decided lack of objectivity in your group, to say little of the rest of KMC ...




Originally posted by Cogito


So Philo has his own arguments and the judges stacked against him This is...interesting.,

Even if you win, you lose, but I'll be hella proud ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640823&pagenumber=8

Edit: Forget whatever you saw here.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Also we should be back on topic instead of me explaining the obvious over and over again.

So consider this matter over.

See if you can get it now.

Or besides bias you are also slow?

No right?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
See if you can get it now.

Or besides bias you are also slow?

No right?



The uncharacteristic way you're responding tells me you're not as you usually are and I'm genuinely sorry to see that.

At any rate, there WAS something I'd been meaning to address, pertaining to a much earlier comment:

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Ahhh!
Pre crisis era ...
where even by comics standards, **+% didn't make sense ...


It might be worth it to point out that Silver Age (SA) Superman and pre-crisis Superman are not necessarily the same.

What we've actually been discussing after Surtur's input, for instance, has been the BRONZE Age version of Superman. It might be interesting to see how the actual late 1950s/1960s era Superman, the "proper" and "true" Silver Age version of the character, performed in terms of speed.

It would seem to lend further support to the idea that he is less speedy than the specialist that post-crisis SpeedForce Flash is:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35799196_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35799197_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35799198_image.jpg

Source: Lois Lane #28
Editor: Mort Weisinger
Penciller: John Forte
Date: October 1961

I won't debate into the speed stuff as I said i dont have the time or the mood to debate.

The other stuff about my bias or your bias is not really part of the topic and I think we already spent too many posts on it an we were derailing the thread.

Im glad you are back on topic though

Originally posted by cdtm
Edit: Forget whatever you saw here.

I can't! Now I know somebody somewhere is a fan of Iron Fist and Sabretooth!
My world has been shattered!




Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35798877_image.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm


kind of implies women can't compete with men on a level playing field ...



Depends on the field.

General point is that to get equality of outcome, you need differing levels of input. What most people consider "fair" is often far from it.