leo's secret war!1!--digi v phil

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Digi wrote on Jul 31st, 2017 10:08 PM:
Digi's Writeup

My team:
- Jakita Wagner
- Aegis
- Storm

Remember that it's a full amalgamation, and full knowledge of power usage is assumed.

My amalgam name: Cersei Lannister

The Crux of It

Since drafts were randomly assigned, it's a small surprise to me that no one got totally hosed. That said, some certainly came out better than others. Like me.

The bulk of my strategy boils down to this:
1. Jakita >>> Wild Child, in ways that give me other advantages like dictating match pace and encounter style.
2. Aegis can tank anything Philo can do. Like, anything. With ease.
3. Storm > Crystal. And Thunder, for that matter. Granted, Crystal's power set is very similar, and she's no slouch. But even combining Crystal and Thunder's best feats, Storm's best sh*ts on them, and Jakita + Aegis perfectly compliment her and erase her usual weaknesses (see: durability).

And that's it. But that will be more than enough. Now let's get to the proving of it.


She might be my "low meta" draft, but she's the fastest, strongest, most durable and most skilled person in this fight. All by a fair margin. She can fall from the top of this skyscraper:
...and only be a bit sore:

She can leap tall buildings in a single bound! I know, that's someone else's line. But seriously:
That's also a sick speed feat. After leaping probably 100 feet up, she closes that gap before the dude can even pull the trigger.

And she's fast. Like, really fast:
In that last one, for reference, that streak along the left in the third panel is her, and the effect is in the last panel.

I have a couple more if needed. For only having ~30 issues to her name, she racked up a lot of good feats. And I'd actually refer to her a low-level speedster.

So think about this for a moment: if I close the space gap between my character and Phil's (which I will), he has to show that Jakita wouldn't beat him to death in seconds. Like, literally, I can just cave his face in. And that's before my other two.


Oh man, let me introduce you to this motherf---er. Aegis is worthless in a tourney...on his own. But in the right amalgam, he's amazing. Because he's a one-trick pony, but it's a REALLY good trick.

See, he has a breastplate created by Hephaestus of the Greek pantheon. It can create an impenetrable forcefield around the wearer, as well as a couple slightly more esoteric powers, all defensive in nature.

Let me just start off with this:

That scan doesn't lack context. It's not cropped to leave out something bad. Even the earlier punches from Herc that he says "sent him flying" didn't do any damage, and as soon as he figured out how to control it, Herc's punches were nothing. And he isn't, say, vulnerable to a different type of attack. It's just that good against everything. He no-sold Hercules, who is far beyond anyone's power level in this fight.

And this isn't an isolated feat. I actually have others that are better than this, but it's a useful starting point.

If Philo did his homework, he'll throw out a couple scans of Aegis getting hit. He was a dumb kid, and AoE attacks surprised him in his first few appearances before he figured out that he could, ya know, shield his entire person instead of just parts of it. I have ample evidence for this. And Jakita is also going to be the "one most in control" if there's a question of skill or battle-readiness, and this is a battle scenario where he's not going to go in half-cocked. Any time I have my shield up, which will be as often as possible minus attacks that require otherwise, it will be a full Herc-no-selling shield, which literally takes no more effort than any other shield Aegis has made.


We all know Storm. But depending on your X-knowledge, you may not know just how many stupid feats she's racked up. I'm not going to spam them all here, but a few representative ones are below. And I'm entirely confident I'll be able to go feat for feat with anything Phil posts without breaking a sweat. He'll need two of his drafts just to come close to one of mine, while my other drafts will turn Storm from a glass cannon into an impenetrable, unhurtable cannon.

So, feats. How would you like to die, Phil?
Suffocation? Seizure? Brain death? And yeah yeah, she's just talking there. But, for instance, she backs it up almost instantly in that issue:
She has feats for the others too. Freeze you from the inside, for example? Easy. That's the kind of thing you hope your opponent calls you out on, because you have feats just waiting for them.

But maybe you buy that Crystal's control can counteract Storm's. To an extent, sure, a bit. I'm not delusional. But I'm going to be the agressor here, and Storm's control is in fact better.

But if it comes to it, I can simply overpower her. With Jakita, Aegis, or Storm. Good thing I have all three. But this is Storm's section in the writeup. Here's some power/scope feats:

Winds that can hold up a building (and immobilize Johnny Storm):

Single massive strikes:
Or, ya know, this:
...which, yeah, lol, but hey, it happened.

And if things go to the air, I still dictate the battle with my flight speed:

Another "scope" feat, among dozens of others I could post:

Now, does Crystal have good feats? Of course. But the point is, "anything she can do, I can do better."

How I Do It

So the fight starts, shield is up in full, which will no-sell anything he does. Take that first speed feat I posted for Jakita, the one where she covers AT LEAST 0.5 kilometers before a dude can even stand up. So I close the 0.5 km gap between us with Jakita's speed in seconds (less?) and literally just unleash everything on him.

And since Storm won't be taking damage, I can focus her considerable powers into any and all attacks I've posted here, and others I can pull out if needed. So...non-stop barrage of punches, some infused with lightning strong enough to vaporize Philo, some to disrupt mental patterns, some backed with gale-force wind to simply take his head off, some while I freeze his heart from the inside.

Then if he manages a counter-attack, my shields are up and Jakita will laugh off most attacks, and Storm's elemental immunities will blunt most of his power anyway.

Whatever he has planned won't matter. I'm faster, stronger, my elemental control is better, and Storm is straight-up immune to about half of what Thunder and Crystal can do. And that's before my Aegis shield. And let's say for the sake of argument he gets through that, then Jakita is still the buffest in the fight, so I'm still capable of going blow for blow.

Philo's Plan??

He requested mountains in the nearby terrain while we were planning this tourney, and I'm guessing he knows a feat war is going to favor me, so he's likely going to try to equalize the playing field by, say, dropping a mountain on my dome. Just a guess, really, but not entirely uninformed imo.

My counter is pretty simple. I'll be on top of him before he has a chance to do anything fancy, so his concentration and ability to dictate the encounter will be nil. Second, some combination of Storm's powers (for example, the earlier scan of her holding up a damn building with nothing but wind) and Aegis's shield is going to turn whatever massive attack he has planned into a metaphoric love tap.

B-b-but Crystal Controls Stuff Too

She and Storm actually fought for half a second. Phil will likely post it. It was a stalemate while Storm was caught off guard and groggy from a punch. But it's better than going against Storm's best feats.

Btw, I have another direct comparison between them that sh*ts on Crystal, but I'm nearing my 10K character limit here.

Dotting My I's

Here's a feat of Storm having global scale with her powers:
I have about six more like that if needed.

I think we established that a city environment is somewhere nearby, and as much as she's able with the rest of the battle happening, I'm having Storm reach out to it to pull some very specific things toward the battle. I don't have all the scans yet for this part, but want to put this here to establish it as "canon" to my strategy. If I get to it, cool. If not, I'm good with the above strategy.

Where's the Twist
This is a friggin' straightforward battle strategy by my standards. But I also need to see what Philo is doing with his elementals. Storm has multiple immunities and Aegis has additional options to turn their attacks against them. But I won't know for sure until I see them. So there's going to be more. But for now, Cersei just unleashes hell until Philo's amalgam is a bloody stump. The Rains will Fall...


Hello everybody,

The Amalgam: Wild Child, Thunder, Crystal
Let's get an overview of my characters, before we say "go go Power Rangers" and meld them into one.

Wild Child


Yes, it's a King Mungi character. So you already know he's full of hair and an Alpha Flight member.


He's part of the 'Wolverine-like' types -- and that basically should give you an overview of what he can do.

Superhuman strength, speed, healing, claws, enhanced senses, highly trained - the whole plate.

Only with one added bonus - he's faster than Wolverine, per the latter's own words, as he's getting savagely ravaged by him:


And his claws take down Sasquatch making him look like he's Chewbacca, and not a guy who's had more than his share of physical encounters with Hulk:




Think of her power as that of a young lady Juggernaut. She has the ability to alter her density, making her invulnerable and super-strong.

To exemplify, she tanks Brainiac's attacks unharmed:


Another example of her laughing off attacks:


Not even being bothered by Lightning :


Her stomp shatters the ground and sends cars flying:


Hitting the ground so hard they think it's an earthquake:

And again:


She can shatter tanks with a kick:


Or simply jump on them, leaving a crater:


She can go toe to toe with Martian Manhunter:


And she can physically wipe the floor with Grayen, the son of Darkseid]:


For reference, Grayven vs Kyle Rayner:

Suffice to say, she's by far the most physically formidable on the field.



With that said, let's get into overpowered territory.

Meet Crystal. She's an Inhuman with control over all elements.

You know those match-ups that pit a character who does one thing well, against another character that does that thing well too, but a shitload of other things as well?

Well, part of Crystal's powerset is Storm:


...but she'a also Geo-Force with Earth control capable of lifting entire cities without strain:


...but also Human Torch with the ability to generate and manipulate fire:


....and transmutation:


...and much more



Say hello to...umm...Wild Crystal? Thunder Child?


Let's call it Thrystal.



10 seconds?
I go maximum density - i.e. invulnerable, physically beating the crap out of Darkseid's son level.
I encase myself into an air shield, the likes of which can withstand High-Evolutionary killing blasts:

And also in this:

I make myself immune to electricity:

The battle:

As soon as I'm on the field, I go beast mode.

I take control of the entire battlefield:


Water Control has overpowered Vision and Thunderstrike:




In case Digi is hiding, I will scan the area. I can detect people by the air in their lungs, micro tremors, energy signature etc. If needed, I will provide scans.

Now, with that said, I assume Digi will rely a lot on the Aegis shield. As he should, it's pretty great if you're up against generic stuff. But it's irrelevant in this fight. I'm not attacking him with things he can defend against.

Digi would put wrap himself in a nice little gift to do as I please.

First of all, the potency of the shield is highly dependent on the user being aware of the attack:


Second of all, inside the shield, you have a limited supply of air:


Having to put the shield down to take air is literally how he died.


And third...my abilities are not a physical attack. The shield doesn't block telepathy/psionics...which is how I control the elements.

I psionically can change the composition of the air inside the shield:


I can pull the air out of his lungs:


You're in an oven. I can have the air combust:


Or, and this is very important judges - I can literally have HIM combust:


I'll have him burn inside out.

If mercy strikes and I don't boil him dead, once his shield is down for his own survival, I could simply have earth particles/water into his orifices (see the taking control of the battlefield part).

Or I could just cut him into pieces. Wild Child roflstomped Sasquatch WITHOUT having super strength/invulnerability/super density. I'm easily physically superior, too.

Defense? Crystal has already blocked Storm's lightning attacks:


And has also straight-up taken control of it:


All of this is without shields...and invulnerability.

I have a VAST area around me filled with elements I control, while my opponent does not.

I have attacking/defensive options from EVERYTHING around us, while all of my opponent's abilities are just a part of what I can do.

Part 1 - Well, this is awkward

After you've read digi's post & mine, you probably scratched your head at him comparing Storm with Thunder, and saying that Jakita is physically the best character on the field.

That's because digi's google skills failed, and he mistook Anissa Pierce for her sister Jennifer Pierce .

What he thinks he's arguing against:
What he's actually arguing against:

One has density control, while the other has the type of powers that digi was trying to address.

So, you know that tactic where he rushes me at the onset, wanting to physically beat the shit out of me? That spectacularly backfires, since I'm vastly above him and I'd massacre him.


Part 2 - Hyperbole

Digi's tactic on how to present his characters in this match:


Digi overselling Jakita like crazy is hilarious. She's a low-level metahuman , who couldn't get the upper hand on Batman in a straight up fight:


I'm laughing my ass off at calling her a speedster. It's like saying that dogs can fight wolves, and you bring a chihuahua to prove your point.

Case in point:

But hey, you gotta do what you gotta do?

Jakita wasn't able to move fast enough to cross a single mile going full speed while tens of seconds passed and people were executed:


Elijah also kept up with her - a physically normal guy.

I'm faster in my goddamn car.


Crystal, herself, is fast as hell. Here she blocks multiple bullets after they're fired right next to her:


It also gives you an idea of how INSTANTLY she can use her powers.

Wild Child has humiliated Wolverine, who couldn't contend with his speed. The same Wolverine who is the 'low level speedster!!' feat wise that Jakita is - at the very least:




To reiterate, Wild Child vs Wolverine:


Wild Child's claws have owned Sasquatch, he'd make breakfast out of Jakita.

Considering that he now ALSO has Thunder's level of strength AND invulnerability ?



Starting the fight by running for my position, hoping to physically overwhelm me is a dream tactic..for me.

I will go Sarlacc mode just split open the ground and engulf her in it.


Moving towards an elemental that has complete control over the Earth, can split it apart and can encase you in it? What could go wrong? I'd have done this anyway, but you were kind enough to make it easier.

Once there, she's in in a domain where I have 100% control. At that point, I'd just troll and catapult him miles downwards, up and down, until he's unconscious. Or crush him. Or go sadistical and wait until he runs out of air.

Part 3 - defenses


I make him spontanously internally combust with a thought.
I make the air inside his shield combust, at which point he has to put it down.
I take the moisture out of the air inside his shield, and drown him:
I take the air out of his lungs
I pull the goddamn water out of his body
THE SHIELD DOES NOT BLOCK ANY OF THIS. There is zero evidence to the contrary.

The Shield is ONLY good against conventional attacks that he is SPECIFICALLY braced against. I can have half a dozen attacks coming at him - including ones that he doesn't even percieve are coming from everywhere.

Digi himself has made it a point in the Hercules scan he posted that its defenses are dependent on the user, and being aware/bracing for the attack matters. You might also notice there that Hercules wasn't serious at all:

"Hercules seems to be enjoying himself. He's not attacking us out of anger...it's like a game, or a test"

Trey Rollins has NO SHOWING to say he can tank everything I throw around here, even excluding the psionics. He only face shit-tier attacks, and stopping a playful Hercules punch is not a true test.

The shield goes down - or he goes down inside of it. It makes zero difference.

Once the shield goes down? I blow open his skull with a seismic wave:

His only protection at this point is Jakita's durability so suffice to say, I could envelop/crush him with Earth. Suffocate him. Torch him. Physically stomp the piss out of him. etc.


His attacks are the exact same ones I prepped for and have defenses against.

I have two shields, on top of invulnerability.

I have total molecular control over my body and the elements around me. I've already shown a scan where she is SPECIFICALLY immune to having shocks to her nervous system.

I have total control over the internal temperature :


I've shown her specifically matching Storm's weather control and taking control of her lightning. To further emphasize, here she redirects Mjolnir's lightning:


NOTHING he does will stop me.

As I've said at the beginning - I'm everything he is and MORE.

Part 4 - Overview

Digi has got his entire tactical setup wrong, trying to use Jakita's unimpressive superspeed to bullrush me, hoping she can physically beat me down.
He tries to engage me with attacks I explicitly prepared for and/or have a plethora of options against.
He's trying to hide behind a shield that is irrelevant to what I'm doing, and quite the contrary backfires when he's cooked inside of it, drowned or suffocated.
Without the shield, I have dozens of way of taking him down, from seismic waves, physically, using the elements that he has zero control over or slashing him into pieces.


KMC is being dumb and not letting me quote Phil. So I'm going to have to refer to scans and quotes rather than literally quoting them. Apologies. Blame Raz.

Digi Post #1

Let's bury the lead, shall we? I have a large misconception to correct first.

Yes, I Am a Tank

Phil picked an interesting counter for Aegis. I can't breathe in it. THAT'S his counter.

First, it's silly. Even my OP states it'll be down for brief moments as I unleash attacks that require it to be down. And you don't think Jakita can hold her breath for a normal amount of time? Lol.

Second, it's wrong. That guy in the scan was magically controlling the Aegis breastplate. Aegis had never needed air in the forcefield before. Don't believe me?
So yeah, I can go for hours without tiring.

Also, let's refer to an official bio:
That's the fight Phil posted. The enchantment of the breastplate was turned off. THAT'S what killed him, not what Phil claimed. He's just canonically wrong, and grasping at straws. Which leads me to this:

Bait & Switch

I love having layers to my strategy. I was even a bit droll by saying I didn't have a twist in my writeup. But you don't win these matches without having one. At least I've never seen it; not past the opening rounds of watered-down tourneys, and certainly not against someone as clever as Philo.

Phil's right. I ignored Thunder. I did make passing reference to her abilities - I thought he'd try to leverage it with the surrounding mountains and utilize her shockwaves - but I only had so much time in my writeup. But I know who Thunder is. I can do a Google search, even though my week hasn't allowed me to do extensive counter-research. So I had to make do with what my own characters can do. And I needed to ensure a slugfest. Baiting him into it seemed the easier option, rather than leading with why I wanted one. Jakita's a beast. I meant all that. But my slugfest strategy doesn't depend entirely on her. So, bring it...

Aegis Again

Remember the Herc no-sell, and how I said it wasn't even Aegis's best feat? Pay close attention to the words here:
Its enchantment turned the kinetic force of your blow back upon you

Tell me, can Thunder produce an attack equal to an enraged Hercules, with an adamantium weapon, going for the kill? I actually hope so. Because whatever Phil has posted is terms of attacking force, that's the attack he just leveled against himself.

For the record, that's not its best feat either.

Also, it handles energy attacks too:

It shields against anything. Phil tried to pretend like his non-punchy attacks would do something. They won't. I'm going to ignore anything he dishes out at me. And, even better, I'm going to turn it back against Phil's amalgam.

Those in Crystal Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones

I'm actually quite confident nothing Phil posted for Crystal even scratches my Storm scans. But he tried to pass off a couple single-panel scans that told us nothing as evidence that Crystal has some advantage over Storm. I can't abide that. So beyond the already-superior feats I've shown, let's go for a more direct comparison:

Can Crystal - with help - dispel the cloud?
Nah, she needs Storm to help.

Now, can Storm, with no help, dispel the same cloud?

Shortest Distance Between Two Points

Also. No, wait, f---ing ALSO. What defense does Crystal have against what Storm did to Sinister? Because let's be real, judges - usually smartly - try to imagine a full battle sequence with a majority of things that combatants have posted. We want to reward participants for their effort. But what if someone wins with a stupid, simple tactic in the opening seconds? It's anti-climactic, so arguments to this affect usually have little sway. But I didn't just post that scan in my writeup for the fun of it. Storm will be doing it. As well as freezing Crystal's heart moments later.

So. What defense does Crystal have against an induced seizure that has her foaming at the mouth? I can't waste time on it after this, but I don't want it to be ignored. Because right now it's a quick, painless win. Well, painless for me.

In Closing

I wasn't being coy about Jakita's speed feats though. They speak for themselves, and even the scan Phil posted shows her at an enhanced speed. I'm faster, period. And have massively better high-end feats with Aegis and Storm.

A Lion Still Has Claws

This was the realest thing Phil posted:


Goddamn I'm beautiful, aren't I? And a lion image when I named my amalgam Cersei Lannister?! Even though we're enemies, you and I, I can understand the fury that drives you...

(Courtesy alert: Spoilers ahead, if you're following the show)

Part 1 - That moment when digi runs out of counters, so he hopes the judges are forgetting scans

I. Aegis

Imagine him being so confident that judges forget scans posted, that he twists "I can do this for hours" into meaning the shield doesn't have a limited oxygen supply

...while at the same time acknowledging that the shields can go up and down, and making it a basis for his argument...

...and the scan he posts to back up his mis-representation is from the SAME ISSUE where it's made blatantly clear that the shield is air-tight and you'd choke if inside of it for too long:



..a scan that he ignored from my opening post.

I should be frustrated, but I'm legit impressed at the balls he has to flat-out hope 4 people will just gloss over this.


He then goes on to say that Trey died because the enchantment was deactivated.

Well, yeah. HE was the one who deactivated it, because he was suffocating inside .

You also noticed how throughout the discussion, a large point was raised on how the Aegis' formidability depends on the user's attention/proficiency.

So what does he do? He posts a completely different character using the Aegis , against Herc...

...when we have Trey going up against a PLAYFUL (!) Hercules, with the same armor, and never having the proficiency to turn the kinetic energy back on him

In fact, he was so bad at it, that he couldn't even properly block his attack the first time, eventough the shield was covering his entire body:


It took SEVERAL attacks to finally be able to brace himself.

As for Digi's scans? It's amusing - machine guns and random shit-tier blasts? These are the 'feats' to show the shield as wielded by Trey can no-sell my amalgam. no expression

In Digi's OWN scans, Trey was struggling to absorb some excess electricity, and was barely able to contain it:


He now argues that he is some sort of defense absorbtion/reflection god.

And this is his ONLY defence...


Trey is so bad at weilding Aegis, that he even got nearly drowned and had to be saved:


Digi got dealt a random Green Lantern, but he's pretending he's Hal Jordan.

Rembemer that cat/lion picture? Yeah, that's is a recurring theme.

Furthermore, Digi continues digging himself HOLE after HOLE.

He spares me the time to point this out, and he does it himself:

This is an instant win for me. I have control of all the Earth/Water in the area. I instantly fill his entire body with earth particles/drown him/suffocate him. I can cut his throat with the claws. I can snap his neck with my vastly superior strength. etc.

I laughed out loud at "Jakita would hold her breath". I pull the air out of her lungs KOint her instantly. I set her lungs on fire. I drown her from the moisture in the air. I transmutate the molecules inside him into anything I want - I'll do it in a GoT T-shirt saying Team Stark.

There's also a gross mis-conception sneakily trying to be promoted by Digi that the shield blocks my attacks in any way, or that it's necessary for me to get rid of it.

Not at all.

As I've already said - the shield doesn't stop me from psionically affecting everything inside of it. I can make him internally combust, drain the water out of his body etc. and he still has ZERO defenses.

The shields are only good for momentarily - and based on ACTUAL feats, not long - stopping physical attacks. And when he gets physical, and puts it down, he's done.

But we'll never get there because...

Part 2 - Feign ignorance

I giggled at him trying to pretend as if he didn't confuse the characters, and having to backtrack from his initial boasting:


He thought she was Lightning, her sister. Thus the comparisons with Storm. Thus why he thought Jakita would be able to physically beat me in seconds.

He also says random stuff like:

As if it means something. After I dismantled her speed. After I posted AT LEAST comparable feats from characters who are explicitly inferior to my amalgam.

He should have owed up to it. I'm fine either way. But..

Notice how Digi basically ignored his entire battle tactic, because he knows he messed up?

This is literally the end of the fight, Judges. I crack the ground, engulf her in it, drag her miles down, and it's done.

Or I let her get close , and do whatever I want with her. Getting up-close against Thunder with Wildchild's density enhanced claws and Crystal, who would make sure to take down and/or overpower the shield is the dream scenario .

I know, boring, but the fact that his starting move gets him one-shotted is quite relevant

Part 3 - Mis-direction

Seeing as how Digi has messed up his entire approach to the match, what's left?

Portraying the match as something it's not.

The match isn't a cloud-control contest between Storm and Crystal. This isn't Dragon Ball Z, where we Kamehameha our power and see who comes out on top.

It's a battle of tactics and specific defensive/offensive counters.

I'm not fighting her in a tug of war over the clouds, in her specific area of expertise - I'm using attacks and elements that she has ZERO control over.

Don't let yourselves be dragged into "Storm is better in this specific area, let's ignore everything else and say she wins" fog-posts.

But to address that specific area - no she is not. He's comparing apples and oranges based on scans he stumbled upon. That's why actually reading the comics matters.

Storm only had to redirect the cloud, not take complete control over it, it was barely starting to get into town and she had ample time to do it:


Crystal was out of time, and had to take control of the entire cloud and forcibly move it:


It's the difference between lifting this boulder:


...and rolling it around to whichever direction you want.

In actual direct, same application of power, Storm and Crystal are explicitly even in an extended confrontation:


Digi will try to overload you with unrelated scans that haven't even been part of his tactic, but that doesn't change their direct confrontation, or the fact that Crystal is a melding of Storm and much, much more

Part 3 - Deja-Vu

Digi's just glossing over whay I say.

It's weird.

I have no other explanation for why he repeats the same things, as if they haven't been already counted.

I showed Crystal total control over her own molecules/immune to having her nervous system affected/total control over internal temperature and yet...he says the same thing. Twice.

Lack of ideas?


On the other hand, I've shown half a dozen insta one-shots that his shields have zero defenses for. And it gets even worse once his shields are down.

He hasn't prepare in any way against them - while I've dedicated my prep to specifically predicting and protecting against his.

And it wouldn't EVEN GET THERE considering his initial tactic makes him swallowed by the Earth and killed underground.

Cersei? Pfft.

He's Lysa Arryn at best

Say goodnight




End post

I offer special thanks to leo for organizing this tournament and inviting us in. The debate, as well as the process of randomly picking the character and making them work was both challenging and hilarious.

Thanks to Digi for taking part in the discussion, hope we do this again soon.

Hope it was worth it for all of those reading both matches.

With that said..

Debating fallacies

Let's start with the obvious one


Digi doesn't have any feats showing that the Aegis shield can stop psionic control - which is how Crystal's powers operate.

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/35778665/Crystal28.jpg.html as just one example of it being directly stated]

What does he do in a situation such as this? He does a false equivalence - if another shield has stopped her power, it means his shield does, too.

That's not how argumentation works. Shields aren't interchangeable - just because a specific type of shield can stop a specific type of attack, doesn't mean it transfers to ALL shields.

The burden of proof was on him to prove that his shield is capable of stopping psionics - and he failed. By this same logic, his shields can now stop telepathy, telekinesis etc. That's what psionics are.

We don't do no limits fallacy.

Not that it matters, but to introduce a little context..

The showing he posted was against a villain who had studied Inhumans extensively and was specifically prepared for their arrival.

Crystal was there specifically not to create a diplomatic nightmare, since she didn't want to destabylize the whole country, so she wasn't on the offensive at all.

You might also notice that the scan cuts abrubtly when the gas is let loose - that's because we don't know what happens afterwards, there's a time jump. What we DO know is that the inhuman inside that was saved.

It's akin to me using this scan where random Shield agents have weapons that can punch through to Aegis shield:


...and say that if those can, then Crystal surely can, too. But I don't. That's...not how argumentation works.

There's zero proof that HIS shields can stop PSIONICS.

You know the best part? If psionics can't move past it - then Digi can't use his own powers. And in order to do so, he'd have to take it down - at which point, I one shot him with seismic blasts, filling his lungs with Earth particles etc. None of which he has control or defenses against.

Feat transferrence

It's already been thoroughly shown that the shield is user-dependent and that Trey which is the character's ability digi is using in the amalgam] is not proficient with it to matter. Even digi himself acknowledged it, and inadvertedly posted scans supporting my point, where he is struggling to absorb and redirect residual electricity.

Digi's tactic? Ignore Trey's shortcomings and limitations, and post feats of a literal God-level character wielding it, even if it's in absolute direct contradiction with what Trey has been shown himself as capable of.

Trey struggles with low-level electrical attacks? Show the GOD absorbing and redirecting Zeus lightning casually.
Trey struggles with a playful Hercules? Show the GOD absorbing all-out Hercules + mace's kinetic energy and redirecting it easily.
Trey needs his full attention and to see the attack in order for it to work? Show time and time again, both against random characters as well as Hercules? Ignored.

We don't do feat/proficiency transference - otherwise all Green Lanterns would be Hal Jordan-level.

Digi kept getting back to how Trey died, and presenting it incorrectly. Nobobody was controlling the enchantment - The Huntsman doesn't have that power.

What he does have, is the ability to instill fear. Through the Aegis. Making him think that he is choking, forcing him to put down his shield and kill himself.

Fear against Hercules:
Fear against Aegis, working through his shield:
So much for the shield offering protection against non-physical attacks.


Digi has gotten so lost in his Storm vs Crystal debate, that he forgot this is an amalgam match. I'm a "Super Skrull". I'm a WHOLE new being with their powers/memories.

I don't have the polution weakness. Wild Child and Thunder make sure of that. The reason Crystal had it was because she was used to the Inhuman atmosphere and then came to the polluted Earth .

It's not a coincidence that the only example he could find is from 1960s.
She adapted and that weakness disappeared completely, and she was soon back on Earth, living and being part of the Avengers , Inhumans, FF etc. There was NO MENTION OF IT anywhere else, in the 50 years history. It was there momentarily, as she just got to Earth's atmosphere.

How does she handle pollution later?

As I said, it not only does no longer exist, but I'm not Crystal - I'm a composite being who has no such problems with Earth atmosphere.

Digi doesn't understand Thunder's powers

Thunder isn't ON or OFF. She has density control, and she adjusts it based on who she's fighting.

She can go from weighting 6 tons:

To weightning enough to cause Earthquakes by hitting the ground :

To weightning as much as a mountain, when her density is full blast:

Her physical strength goes according to her density, to the point where she can one shot tanks by hitting them:

Or hitting the ground so hard she sends cars flying as a side-effect:

...or restrainig Grayven, or going physical with J'onn.

I'm magnitudes physically superior to her amalgam.

Digi posting scans of her using low-level density is useless, I'm not starting at base/meager levels. I'm starting at 'can go physical with guys he can't even dream about' level.
Being caught at a lower density and hurt isn't a problem, since I specifically said in my opening post that I start the fight at max.


I want to put an emphasis on a few things:


Digi messed up. There's no ifs or buts. Out of all the things he could have done, he started the fight using Jakita's running speed in an attempt to bullrush me:

He vastly overrated her. Take a look at the feat in question, there's tens of seconds passing by the time she can run 1 mile.
I crack the ground/engulf her in it, and take her underground. There's zero things she can do.
I'm seemingly beating a dead horse here, but I want to make it very clear just how much he f*cked up. The fight is literally over here.


Digi's counting on Aegis for all his defense . That's it. AND he takes it down when attacking. Once I get a shot, he's done. He has low-meta durability.
- Thunder's high-end invulnerability
- TWO shields that I didn't even need
- Wild Child's healing factor
- Total atomic control over my own body/insides. Prep-immunity against the attack he's counting on
I'm the one who has total molecular control inside my own body, not her.


All of his offense is a copy of a PART of mine. I said I pulled the air out of his lungs? "Storm does it, too!"
Winds? Against somebody who is SPECIFICALLY Storm's equal in that area? Lightning? Against somebody who SPECIFICALLY took control of Storm's lightning? And Mjolnir's?
And this is not even counting the defenses I posted above, against which he has NOTHING.
Me? Besides ALL he can do?
I internally combust him with a thought.
I psionically transmutate the elements in her body.
I engulf her in Earth.
I pull the water out of his body.
I cut his head off with Wildchild's claws enhanced by Thunder's strength/density control as soon as he drops the shield to attack.
I send atomic particles into all her orifices as soon as she drops her shield to attack.
I shatter his skull with a seismic wave.

I'm physically VASTLY superior with one-shot weapons , explicitly equal in her own area, in control of elements that she has no defense against that I've taken control AT THE START OF THE FIGHT, in an environment where I can use EVERYTHING and he used the most awful tactic imaginable.



zopzop wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 08:32 AM:
Before I begin stating my opinion on who won the BZ, I want to mention a few things. One, I've never done this before. Two, I hope I don't phug it up because Digi and Philo put a lot of time and effort into this. Lastly, I've never heard of 3 out of the 6 characters used in this BZ : Thunder, Aegis, and Jakita; I've heard of Wild Child but know nothing of his showings; Storm and Crystal I know a lot about. So I'm assuming all the showings presented here are in context. I also didn't do any outside research to influence my opinion. I'm strictly going by what was presented in the BZ by Digi and Philo.

And now for my opinion on who won and why. IMHO, Philo won the BZ. The key factor isn't even Crystal (who is very powerful and versatile), it's Thunder. Everything Storm dishes out weather wise, Crystal can counter and vise versa. We saw that they were evenly matched on panel. Yes Storm was groggy from being punched by Quicksilver, but Crystal was put on her @$$ by Banshee and got right back into the fight and was still on even footing with Storm. Digi or Phil using weather (wind, rain, sleet, etc..) or electrical based attacks on each other are doomed to failure.

So it comes down to the other 4 : Jakita/Aegis and Thunder/Wild Child. I agree with Philo that Thunder is BY FAR the most powerful character here physically and her invulnerability isn't hampered by the odd stipulations Aegis has : must see the attack in order to stop it, must lower his shield to attack (because nothing gets in or out while it's up right?), etc.. The instant Digi lowers his shield to mount any sort of offense, the fight is over. Wild Child's reaction time and claws backed by maximum density Thunder's (Philo said he's starting max density) physical might ends the fight right there and then. Jakita's durability (which Digi would be relying on since Aegis' shield would be down) will not withstand more than one swipe from Wild Child/Thunder's claw strike.

Just one more thing, Philo is right to mention that Crystal isn't limited to weather based elemental attacks and can use earth or fire to gain the advantage. I discounted this because I believe Philo would be too busy countering Digi Storm's elemental attacks (just like Digi would be) hence why this is going to go physical and at that point it's all over.

And there you have it. I hope I did this right. Thanks to both Digi and Philo for an interesting BZ. I got to learn about some interesting characters I otherwise would be oblivious to.

bentley's vote

Phil vs Digi vote
Sorry for the delay, I forgot to write the message yesterday but I already gathered my thoughts on how this would go. Good game both of you!


Digi had a very straight combination of powersets, Jakita for physical stats, Storm for versatility and energy powers and Aegis for defense. While the utility of each powerset dictates itself, Digi decided to include them into his opening strategy and pull through the physical advantage that speed and invulnerability goes, despite having Storm as his big gun.

Phil's plan featured more of Crystal than his other powersets, but he was always explaining how the other powers could work as a back up. I believe pushing more for them when they were rendered moot by Aegis's forcefield would've made little sense, so I can't hold it against Phil to exploit less of what Wild Child and Thunder had to provide.

1 Digi - 1 Phil.


Digi's opening attack shows he'd rather debate with his speed/invulnerability than to produce endless scans of Storm vs Crystal controls feats that would end up being up in the air and subjective, as the characters haven't had a definitive showdown in the past. Jakita has no flying superspeed so we assume that at least from the get to go she'll be running, later Digi admits the battle will probably end up going into the air. So I get that Jakita's abilities are being ambiguously using on his end: Crystal's earth control limits the versatility of his initial assault, turning the close combat battle into a Storm-flying-speed vs WildChild reflexes Thunder heavy-hitting amalgam. Sure, Aegis could shield Digi from Thunder's superstrenght, but he doesn't have a clear advantage in the match up.

Phil's strategy focused in shooting down Aegis's shield as a viable defensive strategy so Digi had to rely in Storm's powerset for everything. He decided not to move for the kill with his perceived physical advantage and showered the debates with arguments about the many things that we have never seen Aegis block and that to assume that any kind of assault could be blocked would be fallacious. But he did not relent in providing different venues for victory and showing up every limit Aegis could have, essentially putting himself at the helm of the discussion without letting Digi sit and gather momentum. Forcing Digi into defending his shield is ultimately how the pace of the debate was dictated and proved a good strategy to place the arguments where Phil wanted them.

Digi 1 - Phil 2


At the beginning Digi started in a better shape for me, his ideal of not pitting Storm vs Crystal in a straight feat war showed focus while Phil literaly crashed into an energy barrier giving limited claims of how he'd get through the shield and then win -despite we knowing Storm could have all the defenses she needed to block Crystal out-. But when Phil finally jumped into the argumentation that would shoot down Digi's original offense -showing Jakita's limitations and Thunder's formidability backed with Wild Child status-, Digi did not show the means to regain the hand of the debate and allowed Phil to take the initiative.

Phil's aggresiveness did point out the limitations of several arguments Digi provided: transfering feats from a different character, insisting in the actual battle-strategies called in the opening attacks (using Digi's decison of not relaying in Storm against him), attacking the pollution argument with an scan and he amalgam. I actually don't buy everything he's selling (for most part I believe Digi's defenses are more than adequate to the match), but he certainly made the most of going out swinging, it just wasn't aggressive without substance: he made good points off his debate. Ultimately, Digi probably suffered from his limited reply time, as it felt a bit more rushed than his usual. His initial tactics didn't exactly amounted to much for me in the end, giving Phil a much needed breathing room he claimed to an opening of hostilities.

Digi 1 - Phil 3


Thanks to you both for this debate with rather uncommon characters and sorry again for the last minute delay I had because I organized myself like shit XD . I'm giving Phil the edge in this discussion because of how the debate and tactics went mostly, as my usual judgement is to consider the arguments made the most instead of the end result -which often comes from a judge's bias, something I like to avoid-. Good luck both of you and thanks again for keeping the Battlezone forum alive!

congrats to phil on the win, and a MASSIVE thanks to bentley for stepping in to help out with the judging issue. rao, i know you were helping out too, but this had gone on long enough and with 2 votes in his favor already the 3rd didn't matter to the match.

well done to both and phil, see ya in the finals. thumb up

Rao Kal El
I just finished reading. But as it stands it does not matter who I voted for.

Pretty interesting reading both arguments and congrats to the winer.

oh and zop--way to not 'plug things up'. laughing out loud nice job and thanks for taking part. thumb up

Congrats Phil! Now go stick it to Leo in the finals; he could definitely stand to be brought down a peg.


Originally posted by leonidas
congrats to phil on the win, and a MASSIVE thanks to bentley for stepping in to help out with the judging issue. rao, i know you were helping out too, but this had gone on long enough and with 2 votes in his favor already the 3rd didn't matter to the match.

well done to both and phil, see ya in the finals. thumb up thumb up

Thanks to everybody.

Originally posted by Digi
Congrats Phil! Now go stick it to Leo in the finals; he could definitely stand to be brought down a peg.


thumb up

Me bringing down leo:


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