Ben Kenobi vs. Darth Malgus

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carthage
*Ben is entering in the same way the protags entered

*Does Ben have the precog feats to avoid getting hit by lightning

Who wins

Ursumeles
Canon/Legends Ben?

carthage
Run 1: Canon
Run 2: Composite

MythLord
Canon dies due to speed difference. smile

Composite wins, unless Malgus successfully tires him about and given his rapid-fire fighting style that's possible.

thesithmaster
Canon absolutely wrecks him.
Legends prolly loses a slight majority due to Malgus being a very offensive fighter capable of tiring Ben.

nfactor1995
1. Canon Ben loses
2. I'm not sure how to rank composite Ben tbh

thesithmaster
Why are people saying Canon Ben loses? Canon is making it blatantly clear Ben is in his prime, meaning he's >ROTS Kenobi. That's better than anything Malgus has.

nfactor1995
What has canon ROTS Obi-Wan done that's so impressive?

MythLord
Canon RotS Obi, yeah. Who I wouldn't place on par or above Malgus, honestly.

And there's still the massive gaps in the portrayal of speed, strength and TK between the two verses.

thesithmaster
Even in Canon, TCW Kenobi has contended with Darth Maul who canon-wise has stomped three MagnaGuards and wrecked a version of Savage capable of dueling evenly with Ventress. He also managed to land physical hits on ROTS Anakin.
He also managed to kill one MagnaGuard while dueling General Grievous. And per-prime TCW Kenobi managed to beat Ventress in the CW movie. Even in Canon, ROTS Kenobi has impressive showings.

MythLord
Yeah, and that's saber skill. I'll need actual feats of TK and speed that are in any way, shape or form a match for Malgus.

thesithmaster
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and that's saber skill. I'll need actual feats of TK and speed that are in any way, shape or form a match for Malgus.

Before AOTC, Kenobi, in conjunction with Anakin, held a gigantic aircraft. Yeah, it was with Anakin but Anakin was a teenager and Kenobi was vastly pre-prime. ROTS Kenobi could at least come close to replicating the feat.
Pre-prime S1 Kenobi also stalemated Ventress in a TK contest, Ventress as of S1 capable of flooring Anakin with a Force Push. Kenobi also pushed S3 Ventress who managed to push Anakin and defend against a push from Anakin. He also stalemated Hindered Anakin in a TK contest- yeah, Anakin wasn't at his best but he's still very powerful. ROTS Kenobi's skill is better than Malgus' own even in Canon, and he has comparable TK given his TK stalemate with Hindered Anakin. Hindered Anakin's vastly inferior TCW versions have:
Snapped lots of heavy binders
Ragdolled Asajj Ventress
Which is quite impressive.
Speed-wise, Kenobi has moved in blurs (massively pre-prime) and performing a manuever that shows he can react at a respectable fraction of lightspeed. He did it in the novel but performed similar manuevers in the movie.
Even in canon, ROTS Kenobi is Malgus+ level. Ben>ROTS Kenobi.

MythLord
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Before AOTC, Kenobi, in conjunction with Anakin, held a gigantic aircraft. Yeah, it was with Anakin but Anakin was a teenager and Kenobi was vastly pre-prime. ROTS Kenobi could at least come close to replicating the feat.

A feat Malgus would replicate easily.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Pre-prime S1 Kenobi also stalemated Ventress in a TK contest, Ventress as of S1 capable of flooring Anakin with a Force Push.
Kenobi also pushed S3 Ventress who managed to push Anakin and defend against a push from Anakin.

Anakin at the time did nothing impressive.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
He also stalemated Hindered Anakin in a TK contest- yeah, Anakin wasn't at his best but he's still very powerful. ROTS Kenobi's skill is better than Malgus' own even in Canon, and he has comparable TK given his TK stalemate with Hindered Anakin. Hindered Anakin's vastly inferior TCW versions have:
Snapped lots of heavy binders
Ragdolled Asajj Ventress
Which is quite impressive.

What makes you say a hindered RotS Anakin is vastly superior to TCW Season 5 Anakin? I mean, he's already approaching levels where he's close to Dooku as of this time frame and then grows incredibly in the span of a few months. I'd say Mustafar Annie is rivalled by late-TCW Annie.
So yeah, none of this really places Obi-Wan on par with Malgus, who's more powerful than beings that destroy Hexx-Droids(that tank insane amounts of blaster fire), can blast away several tons of rubble, debris and stone despite being near death, overloading fuel cells of several ships by screaming, lurching a ship carrying him with a telekinetic wave and all before a significant power-growth.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Speed-wise, Kenobi has moved in blurs (massively pre-prime)

Everyone and their mothers can do that in Star Wars.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
and performing a manuever that shows he can react at a respectable fraction of lightspeed. He did it in the novel but performed similar manuevers in the movie.

The RotS novel is confirmed as not being part of Disney canon, so Obi has no lightspeed feats. And yeah he performed a manuever in the movie, but we have no idea how fast that manuever was since the novel doesn't apply to it in this continuity. Meanwhile, Malgus is outpacing someone who can move in miliseconds and seeing blaster bolts "with perfect clarity", i.e. relatively slowed down, indicating reflexes considerably above hypersonic.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Even in canon, ROTS Kenobi is Malgus+ level. Ben>ROTS Kenobi.

If this was Legends, you'd have a point, but lo it is not.

Kurk
Canon Ben wins but not sure for composite

YousufKhan1212
Canon Ben: I'm not even going to touch him.

Legends Ben: He probably loses.

Rockydonovang
Canon Ben destroys. He's a equal(there's actually no indication he's iniferior that I know of) of someone in Vader who's demonstrated more power than Malgus and he's authoritatively(whether rebels recon is canon isn't so clear anymore) superior as a swordsman to his ROTS self.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and that's saber skill. I'll need actual feats of TK and speed that are in any way, shape or form a match for Malgus.
Vader's lords of the sith speed feats should do, and wolf Kenobi is a direct peer of Vader who's tk's also better. Unless you're actually going try and argue Vader decided not to use his force abilities even though he regularly abuses them in canon

darthbane77
Malgus wins

MythLord
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader's lords of the sith speed feats should do, and wolf Kenobi is a direct peer of Vader who's tk's also better. Unless you're actually going try and argue Vader decided not to use his force abilities even though he regularly abuses them in canon

Vader's speed feats in Lords of the Sith also aren't up to stack with the stuff Malgus has up his sleeve, and neither is his TK.

And Kenobi isn't his peer in the Force, no. You have to account the source where they fight, in which case Vader did not use his telekinesis in that fight despite his regular abusal of it in newer material, unless you'd like to argue ESB Luke and Korbin(lol) are Vader's peers. erm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

carthage
Korbin Dallassss

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Vader's speed feats in Lords of the Sith also aren't up to stack with the stuff Malgus has up his sleeve, and neither is his TK.

And Kenobi isn't his peer in the Force, no. You have to account the source where they fight, in which case Vader did not use his telekinesis in that fight despite his regular abusal of it in newer material, unless you'd like to argue ESB Luke and Korbin(lol) are Vader's peers. erm
1. So casually and accurately deflecting the blasterfire of dozens of blaster bolts back at their shooters, turning the air red, and dodging lightning fast strikes from lileks isn't sufficient? What are Malgus's speed feats?

2. Vader's malachor showing is > any of Malgus's

3. Terrible examples. Vader was holding back vs ESB Luke and toying with him. Vader actually did abuse tk vs corbin and unlike ben, vader didn't consider corbin worthy of his time.

You can't use out of universe excuses for what happens in universe. The idea that Ben isn't a peer for Vader is asinine when he's shown as Vader's equal(or near equal)

Deronn_solo
Malgus should have this in a bag.

MythLord
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. So casually and accurately deflecting the blasterfire of dozens of blaster bolts back at their shooters, turning the air red, and dodging lightning fast strikes from lileks isn't sufficient? What are Malgus's speed feats?

Yeah, none of that is on Malgus' level. The blaster bolts in canon are considerably slower than in Legends. Turning the air red basically means summoning afterimages, which everyone and their mothers should be capable of doing in Star Wars.

Malgus' speed feats of dancing with someone who can move in mili/microseconds, combatants that speedblitz elite Sith Warriors and percieving blaster bolts in slow motion(or something similar to that, anyways) is easily better.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Vader's malachor showing is > any of Malgus's

You wank that feat too much. Let's clear up some stuff:
Firstly, the feat happened on a Dark Side nexus apparently, so Vader was amped when he performed it.
Secondly, you're ignoring area of effect. Vader didn't shield himself from the entire explosion, but rather the shockwaves that were going to engulf his body which makes the feat significantly less impressive when Gantoris or Zannah can perform similar feats as children.
Thirdly, Vader was still heavily injured from the explosion and limping. And finally, we don't know how much of the survival should be attributed to his Force Barrier and how much to his suit given his suit is also built to be insanely durable.

So there's too many variables to actually consider this that impressive a feat, and there's no indication Ben can come close to replicating it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Terrible examples. Vader was holding back vs ESB Luke and toying with him. Vader actually did abuse tk vs corbin and unlike ben, vader didn't consider corbin worthy of his time.

Vader was also angered at one point during his duel with ESB Luke, but opted to keep driving him back in a saber contest instead of doing the sensible thing of TKing him in place.
Yeah, he used one single Force Push against Karbin, which is hardly indicative of anything. It's not really lavishly abusing the Force, at all. lol

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You can't use out of universe excuses for what happens in universe. The idea that Ben isn't a peer for Vader is asinine when he's shown as Vader's equal(or near equal)

Yes, you can, lol. PIS, WIS or CIS are very much things that apply to any fictional franchise. Just because you don't like it is your problem; a variability in sources is something that should be considered in order to reconcile inconsistencies.

And no, nothing notes Ben is Vader's near-equal in the Force. They just dueled.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, none of that is on Malgus' level. The blaster bolts in canon are considerably slower than in Legends.

Has it been noted anywhere? Or just because there's no comparison yet?

MythLord
I think it's been noted that a blaster bolt moves roughly 300-500 km/h, which is significantly less than hypersonic.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
I think it's been noted that a blaster bolt moves roughly 300-500 km/h, which is significantly less than hypersonic.

Yeesh, that's a real downgrade..that's not even close to the Kentucky long rifle..

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by MythLord
I think it's been noted that a blaster bolt moves roughly 300-500 km/h, which is significantly less than hypersonic.

Can I get the source for that? It'll be useful for my debating on other forums.

MythLord
I think it was the new RotJ novelisation. I'll have to ask AmethystG.

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, none of that is on Malgus' level. The blaster bolts in canon are considerably slower than in Legends. Turning the air red basically means summoning afterimages, which everyone and their mothers should be capable of doing in Star Wars


Malgus' speed feats of dancing with someone who can move in mili/microseconds, combatants that speedblitz elite Sith Warriors and percieving blaster bolts in slow motion(or something similar to that, anyways) is easily better.


Fair enough then, composite physicals prolly needed
Originally posted by MythLord
You wank that feat too much. Let's clear up some stuff:
Firstly, the feat happened on a Dark Side nexus apparently, so Vader was amped when he performed it.
Secondly, you're ignoring area of effect. Vader didn't shield himself from the entire explosion, but rather the shockwaves that were going to engulf his body which makes the feat significantly less impressive when Gantoris or Zannah can perform similar feats as children.
Thirdly, Vader was still heavily injured from the explosion and limping. And finally, we don't know how much of the survival should be attributed to his Force Barrier and how much to his suit given his suit is also built to be insanely durable.

So there's too many variables to actually consider this that impressive a feat, and there's no indication Ben can come close to replicating it.


1. True, however the amp is obviously minor given how Ahsoka was able to fight evenly for more than a minute despite Vader authoritatively being at least >/= and holistically superior. It's certainly not enough to bridge the gap between what Vader did and anything Malgus has done

2. Given the explosion was potent enough to atomize ships, the feat's still far above what Malgus has ever accomplished

3., That Vader's cape isn't damaged makes clear he fully tanked the blast with his barrier. His limping can be attributed to he effort it prolly took, a moot point considering Malgus was drenched in sweat after his best feat.

4. Even considering the variables, there's no way getting around that what Vader did is>>>what we've seen Malgus do. And that Ben can replicate or near replicate this showing power is clear using common sense, though that seems to have momentarily alluded you smile

Originally posted by MythLord
Vader was also angered at one point during his duel with ESB Luke, but opted to keep driving him back in a saber contest instead of doing the sensible thing of TKing him in place.
Yeah, he used one single Force Push against Karbin, which is hardly indicative of anything. It's not really lavishly abusing the Force, at all. lol


1. Vader was enraged in canon?

2.LMAO. How "lavishly abused" Karbin was isn't remotely relevant here. Vader used the force to defeat Karbin who was displayed as a clear inferior to him. Logic dictates that when facing Ben, Vader would absolutely use the force to win if he could, given he's done so in almost every other fight.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, you can, lol. PIS, WIS or CIS are very much things that apply to any fictional franchise. Just because you don't like it is your problem; a variability in sources is something that should be considered in order to reconcile inconsistencies.

Sorry, but just because you don't like something doesn't serve as sufficient excuse to cry pis. It's obvious Vader would use tk on Kenobi if he thought it would do anything of note. The obvious explanation is that Vader isn't powerful enough to tk Kenobi significantly. Rather logical given they're combatively shown as near equals. You'll need more than an appeal to ignorance to refute that.

MythLord
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. True, however the amp is obviously minor given how Ahsoka was able to fight evenly for more than a minute despite Vader authoritatively being at least >/= and holistically superior.

Ahsoka was being driven back decisively, however. I mean, I agree the amp prolly wasn't worth too much, but it is something I should note.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Given the explosion was potent enough to atomize ships, the feat's still far above what Malgus has ever accomplished

It didn't atomize a ship, it disintegrated it. And like I said, shielding your person only would technically be an area-of-effect sort of thing. So Vader didn't tank the full explosion, which also failed to fully destroy a single temple even. Once again, feats even kids have performed on instinct in the EU.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3.That Vader's cape isn't damaged makes clear he fully tanked the blast with his barrier. His limping can be attributed to he effort it prolly took, a moot point considering Malgus was drenched in sweat after his best feat.

You're using Vader's cape as an argument? His cape was fine after a lightsaber strike to the back even though it injured him.

Since when are people injured and limping by errecting barriers? Lmao

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. Even considering the variables, there's no way getting around that what Vader did is>>>what we've seen Malgus do. And that Ben can replicate or near replicate this showing power is clear using common sense, though that seems to have momentarily alluded you smile

It really isn't a lot better than any of Malgus' feats, if it's even better to begin with. And so far, there's no common sense to your claim.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Vader was enraged in canon?

2.LMAO. How "lavishly abused" Karbin was isn't remotely relevant here. Vader used the force to defeat Karbin who was displayed as a clear inferior to him. Logic dictates that when facing Ben, Vader would absolutely use the force to win if he could, given he's done so in almost every other fight.

1. Apparently, yes.

2. That doesn't mean jack-sh!t, given he only used a Force Push or two after a lengthy duel. I can just as easily argue that maybe he didn't use it on Kenobi because the battle was relatively short and if it raged any longer he would have.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sorry, but just because you don't like something doesn't serve as sufficient excuse to cry pis. It's obvious Vader would use tk on Kenobi if he thought it would do anything of note. The obvious explanation is that Vader isn't powerful enough to tk Kenobi significantly. Rather logical given they're combatively shown as near equals. You'll need more than an appeal to ignorance to refute that.

This isn't me not liking -- I'm a Kenobi wanker, remember? -- this is me finding your argument retarded because you fail to take into account the variability of the sources in question. The Original Trilogy, heck even the Prequel Trilogy, doesn't show a lot of Force abuse. Nothing done directly, anyways.
We know the likes of Yoda and Sidious are considerably more powerful than the likes of Dooku and Mace in the Force yet they never chained in any Force attacks mid-fight. We know Maul is more powerful than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan but he only chained in a Force Push once when going solo against Kenobi. At best, you'll get a push or two but that's it.

And even not taking into account the variability of sources, you have to consider the length of the duel. When Vader TKed Karbin or Ahsoka, it was after a prolongued fight. He faced Obi for like thirty seconds before Kenobi willingly let Vader strike him down. We know Ben is comparable to Vader as a swordsman, though that Vader is superior. There's no conclusion about Force powers to be made, however.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up thumb up thumb up

thesithmaster
Vader not using TK =/= his opponent being near equal to him in the Force. If he doesn't opt to use the Force, then he doesn't. Doesn't mean Ben is near equal to him, given how Vader never opted to use the Force.

UCanShootMyNova
It seemed to be Lucas's indication that Ben was near Vader in Force strength give his early concepts for WHY Vader didn't attempt to use the Force on him.

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays.

thesithmaster
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It seemed to be Lucas's indication that Ben was near Vader in Force strength give his early concepts for WHY Vader didn't attempt to use the Force on him.

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays.

That implies Ben is considerably above Vader. When was this said? Because if it was in the 70's or 80's, they had no feats outside ANH/ESB/ROTJ. Vader's feats are considerably better now.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Ahsoka was being driven back decisively, however. I mean, I agree the amp prolly wasn't worth too much, but it is something I should note.

She was driven back, after more than a minute of fighting better or roughly evenly(50 seconds off screen where Ahsoka had barely been driven outside the gate).

Originally posted by MythLord
It didn't atomize a ship, it disintegrated it. And like I said, shielding your person only would technically be an area-of-effect sort of thing. So Vader didn't tank the full explosion, which also failed to fully destroy a single temple even. Once again, feats even kids have performed on instinct in the EU.

The parts of the temple it hit were completely destroyed. Regardless, I'm not considering it better than anything Malgus has done due to the size of the explosion, but the potency.

Originally posted by MythLord
You're using Vader's cape as an argument? His cape was fine after a lightsaber strike to the back even though it injured him.

Mind giving me a scan of the unaffected cape? Given the lightsaber reached vader's back, I find the assertion of yours dubious
Originally posted by MythLord
Since when are people injured and limping by errecting barriers? Lmao

Vader expended his energy

Mind showing a scan of the unripped cape. Because if the cape actually tanked the attack, that the lightsaber reached Vader's back is suspicious indeed.

Originally posted by MythLord
It really isn't a lot better than any of Malgus' feats, if it's even better to begin with. And so far, there's no common sense to your claim.

How is what Malgus is doing remotely comparable?
Originally posted by MythLord
1. Apparently, yes.

Scan/quote?
Originally posted by MythLord
2. That doesn't mean jack-sh!t, given he only used a Force Push or two after a lengthy duel. I can just as easily argue that maybe he didn't use it on Kenobi because the battle was relatively short and if it raged any longer he would have.

First off, Vader didn't just push him, Vader pushed Karbin into the air and then proceeded to slam him into the ground.

Secondly there was no lengthy duel, the fight lasted three panels with Karbin pressing an offense and Vader dismissing him with the force

Thirdly the fight vs Kenobi took longer than the amount of time it took Vader to use the force on Karbin. In general, Vader's makes use of the force very quickly into his canon fights


Originally posted by MythLord
This isn't me not liking -- I'm a Kenobi wanker, remember? -- this is me finding your argument retarded because you fail to take into account the variability of the sources in question. The Original Trilogy, heck even the Prequel Trilogy, doesn't show a lot of Force abuse. Nothing done directly, anyways.

You're not really a Ben Kenobi wanker at all tbh but that wasn't what I was getting at. The "inconsistency" you're trying to reconcile is that Ben doesn't have feats as opposed to Vader, no? Absence of Evidence=/Evidence of absence.

Yes their is a variety of sources, but unless you can give sources of the fight in canon that put Vader above Ben force wise, the point is moot. And holistically the claim that Ben wouldn't be a Vader level force user is nonsensical. Ben is very clearly potrayed as being a rival for Vader, why are Vader's force abilities exempt from this?

Originally posted by MythLord
We know the likes of Yoda and Sidious are considerably more powerful than the likes of Dooku and Mace in the Force yet they never chained in any Force attacks mid-fight. We know Maul is more powerful than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan but he only chained in a Force Push once when going solo against Kenobi. At best, you'll get a push or two but that's it.

Mace is considerably less powerful than Sidious in canon? And this is all fine, but if you have canonical shizz that makes it clear said character is>> another character, then this doesn't apply to vader vs ben where there's no indication of this.

Originally posted by MythLord
And even not taking into account the variability of sources, you have to consider the length of the duel. When Vader TKed Karbin or Ahsoka, it was after a prolongued fight. He faced Obi for like thirty seconds before Kenobi willingly let Vader strike him down. We know Ben is comparable to Vader as a swordsman, though that Vader is superior. There's no conclusion about Force powers to be made, however.
1. Already addressed
2. Vader only tk's Ahsoka when her defenses down, likely because Ahsoka, unlike Karbin is shown as a near equal for Vader
note: if we actually want to go out of universe, the explanation given for vader not tking ben is ben's too powerful

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by thesithmaster
That implies Ben is considerably above Vader. When was this said? Because if it was in the 70's or 80's, they had no feats outside ANH/ESB/ROTJ. Vader's feats are considerably better now.

And that's fine. I'm just saying it seems to indicate that Ben is at least approaching Vader in power.

Tondemonai
Deceived Malgus takes it regardless of canon or composite

MythLord
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
She was driven back, after more than a minute of fighting better or roughly evenly(50 seconds off screen where Ahsoka had barely been driven outside the gate).

Actually, it wasn't "barely driven outside", it was consistently and considerably pressed back. What fight are you watching?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The parts of the temple it hit were completely destroyed. Regardless, I'm not considering it better than anything Malgus has done due to the size of the explosion, but the potency.

Not really... And like I keep saying, this feat is at best a multi-city-block level explosion in potency and Vader only shielded his person from it which is absolutely nothing impressive, especially since it clearly didn't succeed fully as he's injured and a good deal of the damage soak would come from his suit.

You've yet to counter kids in the EU performing the exact same feats.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mind giving me a scan of the unaffected cape? Given the lightsaber reached vader's back, I find the assertion of yours dubious
Mind showing a scan of the unripped cape. Because if the cape actually tanked the attack, that the lightsaber reached Vader's back is suspicious indeed.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ETh9mVqu9DQ/WYQ36Ei8CDI/AAAAAAAAE_A/nHkGZa1jl0sMZ-kBpotnFiCnecd_5DrdACL0BGAYYCw/h1465/2017-08-04.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7svd7qRsTSg/WYQ3656hMxI/AAAAAAAAE_A/MT61om4oBAAUGYxrs7wDmjJ1Npz4SVftwCL0BGAYYCw/h301/2017-08-04.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ue1mb4tZNB0/WYQ3-X4hqII/AAAAAAAAE_A/AGy5GZggmWcEFf92wKoPEnmlU6TaZ08QACL0BGAYYCw/h787/2017-08-04.png

Cape seems fine to me. It could just be, *gasps*, that artists and creators don't really give a damn about stupid little details like a cape being scratched or torn?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader expended his energy

That doesn't mean he'd be limping, with smoke coming off of him. That's not how the Force works. Unless the barrier took absolutely everything iota of energy out of him in which case it's not a combatively applicable feat.

He's either injured by the explosion or errecting a barrier that strong leaves him an invalid. Both make Vader look equally pathetic, so choose. thumb up

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
How is what Malgus is doing remotely comparable?

Because Malgus' feats are actually better? And he gets scaling from characters who have performed similar feats? Shrugging off explosions is nothing new in the EU.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
First off, Vader didn't just push him, Vader pushed Karbin into the air and then proceeded to slam him into the ground.

What fight are you reading? Vader just pushed him:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IRwDQa3PyMk/WYQ4GEv_pDI/AAAAAAAAE_A/e8mZUt45g3E4_evZjGyb4fwC-HnnGJmGgCL0BGAYYCw/h1502/2017-08-04.png

And nothing more.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Secondly there was no lengthy duel, the fight lasted three panels with Karbin pressing an offense and Vader dismissing him with the force

I assume you just looked up the small portion of the fight from Darth Vader #15. The fight takes place across two comics and most of it is actually off-screen. And by timing it we realize it's actually a considerably longer duel than the one he had with Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Thirdly the fight vs Kenobi took longer than the amount of time it took Vader to use the force on Karbin. In general, Vader's makes use of the force very quickly into his canon fights

Nah, even in-canon he waits until he's pressed significantly in a duel before he actually starts abusing the Force. So what I'm getting at from this is... Ben didn't even press him that much ins aber combat.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're not really a Ben Kenobi wanker at all tbh but that wasn't what I was getting at. The "inconsistency" you're trying to reconcile is that Ben doesn't have feats as opposed to Vader, no? Absence of Evidence=/Evidence of absence.

No, it's not lacking feats, it's lacking any form of coherent proof besides your gut instinct and a short-length duel to suggest Kenobi's in any way comparable to Vader in the Force.
We're taking about the same guy who hurt his back from fighting Tusken Raiders, needed concentration to lift and throw a human, needed to be in a state of meditation to lift rocks and bones, has noted he's out of practice, had trouble with a Bounty Hunter C3PO managed to hurt at one point(lol), etc.

Pardon me for thinking this isn't a Vader-level Force user just because he clashed blades with Vader for a while.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yes their is a variety of sources, but unless you can give sources of the fight in canon that put Vader above Ben force wise, the point is moot. And holistically the claim that Ben wouldn't be a Vader level force user is nonsensical. Ben is very clearly potrayed as being a rival for Vader, why are Vader's force abilities exempt from this?

He's not portayed as a rival at all. No source notes this. They only fought briefly and then Ben let Vader kill him. Like I said: If this was Legends, you'd have a point. But this is Canon where nothing notes Ben is ~ Vader besides a 30 second long duel and that's insanely stretching it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace is considerably less powerful than Sidious in canon? And this is all fine, but if you have canonical shizz that makes it clear said character is>> another character, then this doesn't apply to vader vs ben where there's no indication of this.

There's also no indication of Ben being ~ Vader. It's ultimately an appeal to incredulity. Neither of us have proof of our claims because no proof exists for you to use and for me to counter. Thus we should drop the point altogether as Ben clearly isn't a Vader level Force user.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vader only tk's Ahsoka when her defenses down, likely because Ahsoka, unlike Karbin is shown as a near equal for Vader
note: if we actually want to go out of universe, the explanation given for vader not tking ben is ben's too powerful

How were Ahsoka's defenses down? Also, yeah, near equal to Vader in the Force yet got incapped by a leeway Force Push. -_-

|King Joker|
https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/18/86/74/45/50084110.jpg

MythLord
Forgot about that. But it's not direct Force usage, it's manipulating the environment.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, it wasn't "barely driven outside", it was consistently and considerably pressed back. What fight are you watching?



Not really... And like I keep saying, this feat is at best a multi-city-block level explosion in potency and Vader only shielded his person from it which is absolutely nothing impressive, especially since it clearly didn't succeed fully as he's injured and a good deal of the damage soak would come from his suit.

You've yet to counter kids in the EU performing the exact same feats.



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ETh9mVqu9DQ/WYQ36Ei8CDI/AAAAAAAAE_A/nHkGZa1jl0sMZ-kBpotnFiCnecd_5DrdACL0BGAYYCw/h1465/2017-08-04.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7svd7qRsTSg/WYQ3656hMxI/AAAAAAAAE_A/MT61om4oBAAUGYxrs7wDmjJ1Npz4SVftwCL0BGAYYCw/h301/2017-08-04.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ue1mb4tZNB0/WYQ3-X4hqII/AAAAAAAAE_A/AGy5GZggmWcEFf92wKoPEnmlU6TaZ08QACL0BGAYYCw/h787/2017-08-04.png

Cape seems fine to me. It could just be, *gasps*, that artists and creators don't really give a damn about stupid little details like a cape being scratched or torn?



That doesn't mean he'd be limping, with smoke coming off of him. That's not how the Force works. Unless the barrier took absolutely everything iota of energy out of him in which case it's not a combatively applicable feat.

He's either injured by the explosion or errecting a barrier that strong leaves him an invalid. Both make Vader look equally pathetic, so choose. thumb up



Because Malgus' feats are actually better? And he gets scaling from characters who have performed similar feats? Shrugging off explosions is nothing new in the EU.



What fight are you reading? Vader just pushed him:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IRwDQa3PyMk/WYQ4GEv_pDI/AAAAAAAAE_A/e8mZUt45g3E4_evZjGyb4fwC-HnnGJmGgCL0BGAYYCw/h1502/2017-08-04.png

And nothing more.



I assume you just looked up the small portion of the fight from Darth Vader #15. The fight takes place across two comics and most of it is actually off-screen. And by timing it we realize it's actually a considerably longer duel than the one he had with Obi-Wan.



Nah, even in-canon he waits until he's pressed significantly in a duel before he actually starts abusing the Force. So what I'm getting at from this is... Ben didn't even press him that much ins aber combat.



No, it's not lacking feats, it's lacking any form of coherent proof besides your gut instinct and a short-length duel to suggest Kenobi's in any way comparable to Vader in the Force.
We're taking about the same guy who hurt his back from fighting Tusken Raiders, needed concentration to lift and throw a human, needed to be in a state of meditation to lift rocks and bones, has noted he's out of practice, had trouble with a Bounty Hunter C3PO managed to hurt at one point(lol), etc.

Pardon me for thinking this isn't a Vader-level Force user just because he clashed blades with Vader for a while.



He's not portayed as a rival at all. No source notes this. They only fought briefly and then Ben let Vader kill him. Like I said: If this was Legends, you'd have a point. But this is Canon where nothing notes Ben is ~ Vader besides a 30 second long duel and that's insanely stretching it.



There's also no indication of Ben being ~ Vader. It's ultimately an appeal to incredulity. Neither of us have proof of our claims because no proof exists for you to use and for me to counter. Thus we should drop the point altogether as Ben clearly isn't a Vader level Force user.



How were Ahsoka's defenses down? Also, yeah, near equal to Vader in the Force yet got incapped by a leeway Force Push. -_-

1. I assume you're referring to when the episode cuts back to Ahsoka vs Vader after they've been fighting for 50 seconds off screen? Note, before the cutaway Vader is fighting Ahsoka right before the temple entrance, 50 seconds later, they're still fighting at the gate with Ahsoka stonewalling him. Obviously Vader wasn't steadily driving Ahsoka back t that point which means they were fighting with rough parity for about 50 seconds in addition to the 30 seconds or so where Ahsoka demonstated an edge against Vader. That Vader steadily drove Ahsoka back for the last leg of the fight hardly indicates significant superiority of any kind overall.

This also brings up another point that Vader's performance vs Ahsoka isn't far off Maul's. Maul off course is Kenobi's inferior. Given that Kenobi has superiority to someone himself performing similarily to Vader, it stands to reason Kenobi would be close to if not outright equal to Vader.

So even if you don't find evenly fighting for 30 seconds as an indication of anything, Kenobi's superiority to Maul is sufficient for Kenobi to be placed as Vader level.

2. What? How are you equating the size of an explosion to it's potency? Destroying a city block isn't at all as potent as doing this to ships with the least potent parts of an explosion:
https://youtu.be/UCo7wpCnwL0?t=39s
Note, Vader was smack dab in the middle of said explosion(he was a step or so away from being in arms length of the explosion's source meaning what Vader tanked is far more potent than what we see above.

Not to mention what said kid did was an unwilling tapping of her potential rather than what she's actually capable of. The feat's not al all comparable and is totally bunk to bring up.

3. Malgus exerting all his power and failing to hold a freighter in place isn't comparable to Vader presumable expending near all his energy in successfully tanking a explosion potent enough to disintergrate ships.

I hope this scaling isn't based off the kids who's ability to destroy a city block is supposedly comparable to a far larger and more potent explosion Vader dealt with?

4. So is it bad animation that absolutely none of Vader's suit shows any visible damage? (smokw isn't coming out of it, it's coming from the environment around him) That there was a contradiction in another source doesn't change what this source indicates, Vader fully tanked that shizz with a barrier.

That Vader exerted near all his effort is pointless to bring up when you remember that Malgus exerted even more effort with his best tk feat.

5. And later brought down a statue on him. clear abuse of tk unless you think Vader has a moral quarrel with directly tk'ing force users. Frankly that Vader made use of tk is sufficient.

6. Fair enough there.

7. As noted, there's Maul. And no idea why you're trying to use feats from Kenobi shortly after ROTS as a way to place Kenobi as of ANH.

8. Kenobi's superiority over maul is a solid indication of Kenobi Vader that Kenobi's brief demonstrated parity with Vader lends credence to.

9. Vader only pushes Ahsoka when she's off balance and in no position to defend herself. And LMAO at how you're trying to pass of a bfr as a legit ko with the force here.

Darth Thor
I do actually think they're portraying Ben Kenobi as a near equal to Vader. Not sure about the TK aspect though. I'm sure Vader will still be superior in that department, but probably has to find the opportune moment to ragdoll Ben.

Still I don't think it's been addressed at all, given the lack of TK usage in ANH, but also due to there being Zero display of TK in his fight against Maul.

MythLord
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. I assume you're referring to when the episode cuts back to Ahsoka vs Vader after they've been fighting for 50 seconds off screen? Note, before the cutaway Vader is fighting Ahsoka right before the temple entrance, 50 seconds later, they're still fighting at the gate with Ahsoka stonewalling him. Obviously Vader wasn't steadily driving Ahsoka back t that point which means they were fighting with rough parity for about 50 seconds in addition to the 30 seconds or so where Ahsoka demonstated an edge against Vader. That Vader steadily drove Ahsoka back for the last leg of the fight hardly indicates significant superiority of any kind overall.

Let's analyse the fight for a bit, shall we?

Point 1: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=129

The first seven seconds of the duel seems fairly even. They clash blades, Ahsoka evades a few strikes from Vader and she even manages to TK Vader.

Point 2: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=138

Here, we see Vader recomposses and he already begins to drive Ahsoka back and rapidly at that. Tano's saving grace is her speed and agility which allows her to dodge Vader's strikes. But other than that, she's clearly being driven back considerably and consistently. After only a few bladeclashes, she's already swiftly giving ground.

Point 3: https://youtu.be/0UVJSJOiLk4?t=153

There's obviously a considerable gap between where they were fighting before the cut-away and where they are now. I actually looked closely where they were in comparison to Ezra before they went outside the gate and the distance is approximately:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y_Bljvg5WX0/WYhG2gib3aI/AAAAAAAAFBg/3sxmg8qfB_ofS93EyB0fpAzn8-twS0cYgCL0BGAYYCw/h316/2017-08-07.png

As you can see, fairly considerable. There's at least 20-30 meters and it shows Ahsoka was getting consistently driven back. We see this still holds true as the fight progresses and Tano becomes more and more desperate. So before the cutaway Vader's rapidly driving her back, when we cut back to their duel the distance they crossed is considerable and then a closer look at the fight shows Ahsoka's clearly on the losing side.

She's in no way his near equal.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This also brings up another point that Vader's performance vs Ahsoka isn't far off Maul's. Maul off course is Kenobi's inferior. Given that Kenobi has superiority to someone himself performing similarily to Vader, it stands to reason Kenobi would be close to if not outright equal to Vader.

So even if you don't find evenly fighting for 30 seconds as an indication of anything, Kenobi's superiority to Maul is sufficient for Kenobi to be placed as Vader level.

What? Maul's performance against Ahsoka is in no way similar to Vader's. Vader's is considerably better since Tano stonewalled most of what Maul was bringing to the table whereas most of Vader's attacks drove her on her backfoot.

Your scaling is bunk.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. What? How are you equating the size of an explosion to it's potency? Destroying a city block isn't at all as potent as doing this to ships with the least potent parts of an explosion:
https://youtu.be/UCo7wpCnwL0?t=39s
Note, Vader was smack dab in the middle of said explosion(he was a step or so away from being in arms length of the explosion's source meaning what Vader tanked is far more potent than what we see above.

That's all well and good, but you're still ignoring all the circumstances I've mentioned in my first post to you. Actually counter my points, or don't waste my time.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention what said kid did was an unwilling tapping of her potential rather than what she's actually capable of. The feat's not al all comparable and is totally bunk to bring up.

But she was still a kid who, despite having a nice bit of potential, shouldn't be capable of licking the heel of Malgus' or Vader's boots.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Malgus exerting all his power and failing to hold a freighter in place isn't comparable to Vader presumable expending near all his energy in successfully tanking a explosion potent enough to disintergrate ships.

A considerably pre-prime Malgus, yeah. He had several power-boosts throughout Decieved and then another noticeable one by the time he was a False Emperor. So this argument's also bunk.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. So is it bad animation that absolutely none of Vader's suit shows any visible damage? (smokw isn't coming out of it, it's coming from the environment around him) That there was a contradiction in another source doesn't change what this source indicates, Vader fully tanked that shizz with a barrier.

The animation shows off Vader limping and charred, I think that's enough. And this isn't the first time the cape wasn't damaged from sh!t it should have been. Nobody cares about what some RockyDanavong kunt on KMC will nitpick at. thumb up

He's limping. That doesn't happen from using all of your Force power, that happens because of injury. You can't be this dense.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Vader exerted near all his effort is pointless to bring up when you remember that Malgus exerted even more effort with his best tk feat.

I mean, if he was limping then he apparently was either injured or he wasted literally all of his Force reserves. Malgus clearly didn't use all of his power to keep the freighter there since right after this feat he proceeds to fight Aryn Leneer and win. Vader, on the other hand, looks like he couldn't fight Zett Jukassa and win after that explosion.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
5. And later brought down a statue on him. clear abuse of tk unless you think Vader has a moral quarrel with directly tk'ing force users. Frankly that Vader made use of tk is sufficient.

That's not directly TKing someone, though. He might've shoved objects at Obi's general direction had any been around, but none were.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
7. As noted, there's Maul. And no idea why you're trying to use feats from Kenobi shortly after ROTS as a way to place Kenobi as of ANH.

Those feats were closer to ANH than RotS, as Obi at this point considers himself a relic. And there's nothing to note he's grown in any appreciable way.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
9. Vader only pushes Ahsoka when she's off balance and in no position to defend herself. And LMAO at how you're trying to pass of a bfr as a legit ko with the force here.

She was off-balance? How? Also, she was knocked unconscious only to regain consciousness a minute or so later.

Rockydonovang
Aight wollf, forgive me for mah formatting coz mobile be k.

1. They weren't at all fighting evenly, indeed Ahsoka has the clear edge. She lands the only physical hit of the fight and then exploits a flaw in Vader' offense(as Vader did with Ahsoka' defense) to tk him while dancing around him. If Vader's strength based advantage means something so does Ahsoka's at the start here.

2. You've managed to note Vader driving her back with her strength but seem to have failed to note her dancing around him with his speed, and just as the screen cuts off, we see Ahsoka start to circle around him again. In no way does that imply Vader was clearly superior

3. Most importantly your arrow is off, at 2:25, before the 50 seconds off screen, they're already under the gate. Which would mean that after 50 seconds of fighting they've moved from under the gate to right outside the gate. They've clearly been giving very little ground to each other implying parity. Add the start of the fight where Ahsoka had an edge and that translates to more than a minuite of Ahsoka beating\matching Vader, not to mention when we cut back we see Ahsoka stonewalling Vader . Vader finally prevailing(and ending with he fight prematurely via bfr) hardly translates to a significant edge. And I haven't even noted the nexus(as well as Vader training her which cancels out her being trained for big opponents). There's no way to spin this fight as being significantly one-sided. Vader won a close and contentious affair rendering them near equals.

4. Given that both maul and Ahsoka fought her for about a minuite roughly evenly(Vader gains an advantage afterwards) their performances are very similar.
My scaling works just fine.

5. All have been addressed.
You've conceded the nexus would be minimal, I didn't mention the area of effect here. I'll get to the success and energy expended for the barrier.

6. It's good then the feat isn't remotely comparable to Vader's. Not sure why you keep she was repeating that she was a kid when this had nothing to with the feat. It's not a showing of actualized power, it's a showing of potential which she can't consistently replicate. Not only is the showing outclassed by Vader's, it's not even a legitimate one.

7. So I'm assuming you have something for Malthus' prime which is comparable? Or are you going to spitball that said vague amounts of growth are enough to compensate for the vastly inferior showing.

8. Wollf, Malgus fsiked to perform the feat despite drenchng in sweat, there's no way vader expended more energy with a feat he succeeded. And check the video. There's smoke around Vader covering the environment, not from him. There's no sign of damage anywhere on his body. All we have is Vader limping due to expending nearly all his energy which is better than giving it your all and then reaching your limit making you fail to keep up the feat.

9. Let me get this straight, Vader is willing to slam a statue on someone, but his morals stop him from choking someone? Is Vader a Jedi?

10. Was this not 5 years post rots? Anyhow Kenobi hadn't started his who-gin training yet which is noted in rebels recon to have deepened his connection to the force. Using pre-prime versions of characters isn't a great way to gauge them.

11. Vader pushed her after pushing her off balance with his strength.

That she was ko'd is pointless to bring up unless there's a ledge here. All Vader did was push her a bit in the air with her defenses down. Hardly an indication of great superiority

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. You've managed to note Vader driving her back with her strength but seem to have failed to note her dancing around him with his speed, and just as the screen cuts off, we see Ahsoka start to circle around him again. In no way does that imply Vader was clearly superior

I don't want to interfere in your back and forth with Wolff but, just because Ahsoka's style relies on speed, it doesn't mean she's faster than Vader at all. If she could really "run circles" around Vader why didn't she simply rotated her position to avoid being pressed to edge of the plataform? Or, more dramatically, why she didn't even score a glance on his armor by striking him from the sides/behind?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I don't want to interfere in your back and forth with Wolff but, just because Ahsoka's style relies on speed, it doesn't mean she's faster than Vader at all. If she could really "run circles" around Vader why didn't she simply rotated her position to avoid being pressed to edge of the plataform? Or, more dramatically, why she didn't even score a glance on his armor by striking him from the sides/behind?
Just because Vader's style relies on strength, it doesn't mean he's stronger.

No what makes Ahsoka faster is that she was able to land a hit on Vader with her first move and then via dancing around him caused him to overextend giving her an opening to tk him. Just like what makes Vader stronger is his ability to drive Ahsoka back.

Given Ahsoka landed a hit and forced a mistake at the start, she definitely had the advantage at the start.

The point I was making with what you replied to is that at that moment, you can't give Vader credit for forcing Ahsoka back because she is able to spin and rotate around him which means she isn't being forced back.

As for your other points, Ahsoka couldn't rotate around Vader at the edge because of the narrow space and limited room to maneuver which Incould use to argue she had an unfavorable enviroment but I don't really feel the inclination to at the moment.

Ahsoka was unable to land saber hits, just like Vader, but she actually managed to land the only physical strike of the entire fight. So I guess by your logic, that means Ahsoka won?

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