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KotFE:
Immortal Emperor Valkorion

Galactic Empire Era:
DE Palpatine

New Jedi Order Era:
Grand Master Luke Skywalker

Clone Wars Era:
Grand Master Yoda

1vs1vs1vs1 battle.
Intent to kill even for Yoda and Luke (so they won't hold back if they have a chance to land the killing blow just because of rainsins)

Luke

Valkorion has a good chance - he is not only capable of defeating one of the opponents in a fight but he can continue to be a significant threat without a corporeal vessel and steal victory in this manner.

This may also turn into a EVIL side vs. GOOD side and one side best the other and then the survivors turn on each other. However, Valkorion can steal victory in all situations here due to his extraordinary capabilities.

What is Valkorion doing here? He's curbstomp fodder for GM Luke and Sidious.
Yoda can't last more than one minute against Sidious or Luke. It comes down to Sidious vs Luke, Luke wins in a brutal fight.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
What is Valkorion doing here? He's curbstomp fodder for GM Luke and Sidious.

Explain your nonsense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Explain your nonsense.


On topic, Luke.

Luke.

Darksiders team up and defeat the Jedi. Then, Sidious takes care of Valkorion.

Luke. most powerful, skilled, and versatile.

Luke.

Luke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Explain your nonsense.

Valk has no feats to suggest otherwise.
And he is canonically inferior to Plagueis, a guy whose feats also suggest he can't hold a candle to these guys.
Explain the nonsense that is Valk having any sort of chance of winning against Sidious.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
he is canonically inferior to Plagueis
are u ever going to stop peddling that shit

SithMaster for all the shit you're talking, why haven't you considered my Yoda V Valkorion CAU?

Luke wins.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke. most powerful, skilled, and versatile.

I haven't finished KotFE yet, so can sombody please tell me why yoda apparently can't hold a candle to valkorion?

What a lame thread.

Originally posted by deathslash
I haven't finished KotFE yet, so can sombody please tell me why yoda apparently can't hold a candle to valkorion?

Did you skip the destruction of ziost part, anyway he doesn't have any decent feats during the expansion, as If he did, it would lead to him growing in power, which he already is too high for the MC's to defeat.

Valkorion and Yoda die almost instantly and it turns into a match between Luke and Sidious - which the latter wins, I'd say.

Aside from the Valk and Yoda dying instantly part.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Did you skip the destruction of ziost part, anyway he doesn't have any decent feats during the expansion, as If he did, it would lead to him growing in power, which he already is too high for the MC's to defeat. I did skip that part (only became a subscriber the other day).

Sheev wormholes the other 3

Shit? Really? I'm peddling shit now? When the blurb is canon?
"Lucasfilm canon refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet."
Leland Chee
And the blurb happens to be produced by Lucas books, a Lucas company. It's canon.
Does it apply to Valk? I'm afraid it does.
"Valkorion is an ancient SITH entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings. A manipulative survivor, Valkorion pinpoints the weaknesses of both friends and enemies alike, twisting them to serve his purpose. He believes the entire galaxy is his to shape and will stop at nothing to reach his goals."
The Old Republic Codex: Valkorion
And "unburdened by archaic Sith teachings" doesn't mean he isn't Sith. It just means he doesn't want more archaic teachings in his life. And archaic teachings are not all teachings. You can be Sith and care not about the archaic- Darth Maul, Darth Vader being a few examples.
Valkorion is Sith and the blurb is canon. Thus making Plagueis better than him. And there are more things, such as Valkorion failing to achieve immortality in thousands of years and Plagueis doing so in decades. But I can elaborate on that later.

A fair interpretation. Granted, I feel Legend and Neph's interpretation that Valkorian is a SITH entity because his original species was a SITH is accurate as well.

Yeah, you really are. Especially since Chee's recent quote made blurbs but all but useless in debates.


.
Leeland Chee has been recently quoted as saying are licensed to be subjective specifically when asked about the Plagueis blurb, meaning no - they aren't infallible pieces of evidence and can be challenged since subjective comes down to opinions, not fact.




Yeah, Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity - because he was born a pure blood Sith, and he is now an entity, kinda how a human spirit is referred to as human in its moniker, even though it certainly is anything but a human.

So basically, you're saying a quote hailing Usain Bolt as the fastest human on Earth would apply to a human apparition, too?

That, plus the fact Valkorion himself says he isn't a Sith anymore, and the Zakuul, an order he created, specifically not aligning with the dark nor light sides of the Force, makes it rather clear he isn't a Sith Lord anymore.





If Plagueis actually did achieve immortality, he wouldn't have died.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity - because he was born a pure blood Sith, and he is now an entity, kinda how a human spirit is referred to as a human in its moniker even though it certainly is anything but a human.

If Plagueis actually did achieve immortality, he wouldn't have died.

The argument is that once something becomes an entity their former species no longer matters. It's not an argument I agree with myself, but... *Shrug*

Tbf, I think he's referring to aging immortality.

You can say that, but unless I see something that makes it mutually exclusive, I'm gonna stick to the interpretation that makes more sense in the context of the character.





Even then, a low-level chump like Darth Scabrous was gonna become immortal in a far shorter time than Valkorion too, I guess he is > Valkorion as well?

The former lead writer of SWTOR also stated Valkorion isn't a sith.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
If Plagueis actually did achieve immortality, he wouldn't have died.

Plagueis is immortal as long as he gets dat oxygen bro.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke. most powerful, skilled, and versatile.



To put raw power into perspective:

1. Luke Skywalker / Darth Sidious
2. Luke Skywalker / Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion

It's really a duel between the former 3, which Luke probably takes.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Sheev wormholes the other 3

Glad to see you have finally bent the knee. Do you wish to fully convert to Sheevism?

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Sheev wormholes the other 3 luke and yoda create a wall of light around sheev and palpatine dies from his own power.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The former lead writer of SWTOR also stated Valkorion isn't a sith.

Noice. Got a quote?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Plagueis is immortal as long as he gets dat oxygen bro.

Funny that someone who bent "god" to his will, even needs oxygen from the get-go.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
What is Valkorion doing here? He's curbstomp fodder for GM Luke and Sidious.
good question.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You can say that, but unless I see something that makes it mutually exclusive, I'm gonna stick to the interpretation that makes more sense in the context of the character.





Even then, a low-level chump like Darth Scabrous was gonna become immortal in a far shorter time than Valkorion too, I guess he is > Valkorion as well?

As I mentioned, I don't hold those opinions myself. Just explaining the stances of the opposition.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity - because he was born a pure blood Sith, and he is now an entity, kinda how a human spirit is referred to as human in its moniker, even though it certainly is anything but a human.

That, plus the fact Valkorion himself says he isn't a Sith anymore, and the Zakuul, an order he created, specifically not aligning with the dark nor light sides of the Force, makes it rather clear he isn't a Sith Lord anymore.


Finally someone gets it lol

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Noice. Got a quote?

Those weren't the exact words, but here it is:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The former lead writer of SWTOR also stated Valkorion isn't a sith.
was he the lead writer when valkorian was a thing? then he might well be a non-sith.

Arguments like, oh it's referring to his species are utter shite though

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Those weren't the exact words, but here it is:
That's not saying what you think it's saying.
Valk was dissatisfied with the sith philosophy of his empire("archaic sith teachings", but as the codex entry makes rather clear, just because he's perusing a new philosophy doesn't annul him being a sith.

Yeah, he was lead writer until late 2015, which is when Valkorion came along. He's still their lead creative director, too. He prefaced his statements with this:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, he was lead writer until late 2015, which is when Valkorion came along. He's still their lead creative director, too. He prefaced his statements with this:
problem is he doesn't say valk isn't a sith, he says basically the same thing as that archainc sith teachings quote.

Boyd's statement, in unison with the quadrillions of quotes from kotfe/kotet stating that valkorion is not a sith lord, lead me to believe that valkorion is not a sith lord, as opposed to 1 codex quote, which have been straight up wrong multiple times.

the quadrillion quotes from kotfe are likely part of that ruse valk is pulling where he acts he isn't still a kind of force user that would be the outlander's mortal enemy to get the outlander to get more chummy with him and then proceeds to do exactly what a sith would do.

No. We also have statements from Satele and Marr, who aren't in league with Valkorion.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
As I mentioned, I don't hold those opinions myself. Just explaining the stances of the opposition.

Fair enough.

I have yet to see any decent rebuttal from the pro-Sith Valkorion side, however.

forcing a discussion on whether Valky is Sith or not is rather pathetic at this point. Not sure why people still cling to this Plagueis wank so desperately.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
No. We also have statements from Satele and Marr, who aren't in league with Valkorion. Valk wouldn't be deceiving those two?

Uhh, Valk never talked to them...

You also seem to be under this notion that Valk was deceiving the Outlander in regards to not being a sith, which isn't supported by the evidence I'm afraid.

I mean Valk got the outladner to train with them. Besides it seems marr and satele drew their conclusions from sesnsing valk in the outlander and/or the empire of zakuul's force philosophy.

I'll elaborate on the latter. The supposedly expanded philosophy of zakuul which allows them to wield the force differently is that they draw power from their loyalty to Valkorian. In other words, looking at the events of the game as a whole, Valk basically created this philosophy based around servitude to himself and then took advantage of the enslaved civilization in a convoluted plot to take control of the entire galaxy. While the philosophy of the fckers he duped may be different, Valk's actions work perfectly in line with the philosophy of the sith/darkside.

2. it's oerfectly plausible they're falling valk's bs here when you consider that they're also molding the outlander exactly into what valk wants him to be as he plots for galactic control, an objective which is as sith as anything.

it is, because valk's factually a sith, and no objective statements actually contradict that, not to mention valk's ending objective is exactly the same as your typical sith lord.

All I see is baseless rambling and conjecture, lel. The quote itself isn't even concrete, as I offered a yet to be debunked argument on why already.

Valkorion isn't a Sith Lord, end of conversation - get over it and cry somewhere else.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
All I see is baseless rambling and conjecture, lel. The quote itself isn't even concrete, as I offered a yet to be debunked argument on why already.

Unfortunately valk not being a sith is wholly based on assumption contradicting objective evidence.
Since I've given a plausible alternative to said contradictory assumtions, there's no reason to assume that what is objectively stated is false.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion isn't a Sith Lord, end of conversation - get over it and cry somewhere else.
Nah, saying end of conversation is never going to work when your claim is factually false

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
All I see is baseless rambling and conjecture, lel. The quote itself isn't even concrete, as I offered a yet to be debunked argument on why already.

Valkorion isn't a Sith Lord, end of conversation - get over it and cry somewhere else.

We know for a fact that Arcann's unique application of the Force makes it really hard for Sith/Jedi to fight him. For some reason, Arcann being against Valk and Sith having trouble fighting it tells me that Valk's new philosophy isn't as shallow as fooling everyone into serving him and faking being Sith. I guess I'm just weird like that.

Did you even read my argument to TheSithMaster on the last page? Debunk my Sith Entity argument before wasting my time further.

Originally posted by Sinious


We know for a fact that Arcann's unique application of the Force makes it really hard for Sith/Jedi to fight him. For some reason, Arcann being against Valk and Sith having trouble fighting it tells me that Valk's new philosophy isn't as shallow as fooling everyone into serving him and faking being Sith. I guess I'm just weird like that.

What unique application? TOR did terrible in trying this new Force then...when there's nothing really new about it. It's still The Force, it's still TK, it's still Lighting, it's still everything that the Force always was.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Did you even read my argument to TheSithMaster on the last page? Debunk my Sith Entity argument before wasting my time further.
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)

I'd hate to waste your time though

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I mean Valk got the outladner to train with them. Besides it seems marr and satele drew their conclusions from sesnsing valk in the outlander and/or the empire of zakuul's force philosophy.

Valk actually never directly mentions Satele and Marr to the Outlander, nor does he lead the Outlander to them. Satele and Marr are speaking of this new force philosophy based on their experiences fighting the Knights of Zakuul. Satele and Marr also explain how their jedi and sith philosophies/techniques/perspectives were insufficient to defeat Arcann and his Knights. Not only that, but they have the Outlander create a weapon specifically tailored to fight against Arcann and his application of the force. It's painfully clear that this new force philosophy is more than just some ruse by Valkorion.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll elaborate on the latter. The supposedly expanded philosophy of zakuul which allows them to wield the force differently is that they draw power from their loyalty to Valkorian. In other words, looking at the events of the game as a whole, Valk basically created this philosophy based around servitude to himself and then took advantage of the enslaved civilization in a convoluted plot to take control of the entire galaxy. While the philosophy of the fckers he duped may be different, Valk's actions work perfectly in line with the philosophy of the sith/darkside.

This is completely irrelevant. When there's a billion statements stating that Valk isn't a sith, a force philosophy created by Valkorion that is completely different than that of the jedi and sith, and a training montage for the Outlander to shed his past limitations as a jedi, (or sith) in order to combat Arcann, you know that Valkorion isn't a sith. A codex that's validity is questionable doesn't take precedence over what actually occurs in the source material. That Valkorion wanted to rule the galaxy (under his new force philosophy and vision, mind you) is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. it's oerfectly plausible they're falling valk's bs here when you consider that they're also molding the outlander exactly into what valk wants him to be as he plots for galactic control, an objective which is as sith as anything.

This is completely false. Marr states that even Valkorion's force philosophy is not the ultimate perspective on the force, proving that Marr is not molding the Outlander into what Valkorion wants him to be.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
it is, because valk's factually a sith, and no objective statements actually contradict that, not to mention valk's ending objective is exactly the same as your typical sith lord.

Lmao.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)

I'd hate to waste your time though

Kbro, the context from playing the game made it clear, as his whole empire's philosophy is not revolved around Sith Philosophy in which any Sith does. The writer makes it clear that he, left that philosophy, which is backed by several quotes. Valkorian himself then states he is not sith. meaning the context backs the notion that Valkorian has left the title Sith, in pursuit of something else. Revan uses the darkside of the force and does not describe himself as sith, why can't Valkorian.

Quite frankly you are grasping at straws, which doesn't fit the narrative that is being portrayed.

What is Valkorion's force philosphy?

He believes that the force is some sort of transaction. It's pretty damn vague.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.

No, that's not my assertion at all. Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore because he rejected their dogma and created a Force sect individual to those of the Jedi/Sith as a hold, plus he, and other characters actually involved in the story, says he isn't a Sith anymore either.

That's what lead me to come to the conclusion that the quote is referring to, what Valkorion was a species since he was born a pure blood Sith, and is now a Force entity, hence, him being a Sith entity. Just like a human spirit/ghost/apparition was born a human, and later become a non-corporeal being, yet still keeping the "human" tagged attached to their name, despite not being a human by any stretch.

How is this any different from Valkorion's case?


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)

What? Not getting your point here at all. Change the quote around to....

"Aundrae is an ancient human apparition with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the world."

That would be absolutely the same thing, no difference whatsoever, doesn't make me a human, tho.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
What unique application? TOR did terrible in trying this new Force then...when there's nothing really new about it. It's still The Force, it's still TK, it's still Lighting, it's still everything that the Force always was. I agree with you that it is utter shit and makes no sense. However, Rokcy's claims remain untrue. Between learning this new thing and getting amped by Valk, Outlander manages to defeat Arcann, when he was getting ragdolled by him. We have no way of knowing how much of this difference is caused by the new philosophy. However, Satele says Arcann's unique application is the reason why they couldn't defeat him. So, I'm guessing it's not irrelevant at all, and since it is factually difficult for Sith to fight people who uses Valk's new way of the Force, it is retarded to claim Valk is still a Sith based on a sketchy codex entry that was most likely talking about his origins. Not to mention the sketchiness of the blurb itself.

I think, Vitiate got jealous and stole Revans Idea, but could never replicate it the same.

It's also important to note that Zakuul, the heart of the Eternal Throne and Valkorion's nest, is perfectly balanced between light and dark, which imo perfectly respresents how Valkorion is no longer a sith lord.

Originally posted by Sinious
I agree with you that it is utter shit and makes no sense. However, Rokcy's claims remain untrue. Between learning this new thing and getting amped by Valk, Outlander manages to defeat Arcann, when he was getting ragdolled by him. We have no way of knowing how much of this difference is caused by the new philosophy. However, Satele says Arcann's unique application is the reason why they couldn't defeat him. So, I'm guessing it's not irrelevant at all, and since it is factually difficult for Sith to fight people who uses Valk's new way of the Force, it is retarded to claim Valk is still a Sith based on a sketchy codex entry that was most likely talking about his origins. Not to mention the sketchiness of the blurb itself.

Satele saying anything about it is pointless because there's nothing different, he could have just been more powerful. A new philosophy doesn't mean anything if nothing different is shown, there are various Force groups that see the Force as something different, but it's still the Force. That and as I recall we see later Jedi and Sith fighting more evenly against Users using this new philosophy. Which is just the Force....it's nothing new other than belief in where it comes from.

Zen should stop trying to rationalize shit writing and accept it for what it is.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Zen should stop trying to rationalize shut writing and accept it for what it is.

I know it's bad.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Your assertion that what valk "is" isn't relevant as he's now an entity but what he "was" holds relevance is baseless.
Your example falls flat because while a human apparition isn't a human, it also isn't a sith(species)

I'd hate to waste your time though

@DC: Told you.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, that's not my assertion at all. Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore because he rejected their dogma and created a Force sect individual to those of the Jedi/Sith as a hold, plus he, and other characters actually involved in the story, says he isn't a Sith anymore either.

The thing is, none of said characters have any idea what Valk's real intentions are and it's revealed Valk was fcking with everyone at the end which renders said statements unreliable.

The supposed difference between the mentioned force sect and jedi/sith is that they draw their power from subservience to valkorian, which fits nicely with Valkorian using them as a means to obtain galactic control. For all his bluster about being a new kind of force user, he's still doing the exact same thing he was trying to do as a sith and is exploiting a force sect he's started for said purpose. Given that the force sect is founded on subservience/loyalty while Valkorian's philosophy is based on his own supremacy and loyalty to none, it stands to reason that the philosophy of said sect of force users has nothing to do with Valkorian's personal philosophy.

Rejecting the dogma or archaic teachings of the empire or old sith isn't the same as not being a sith.

Given that Valk is factually stated to be a sith, and it's revealed his end goal, galactic conquest and a powerful physical host, two fundamentally sith-esque objectives his sith version chased after despite Valk supposedly having grown beyond this, it's obvious Valk is lying here.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That's what lead me to come to the conclusion that the quote is referring to, what Valkorion was a species since he was born a pure blood Sith, and is now a Force entity, hence, him being a Sith entity. Just like a human spirit/ghost/apparition was born a human, and later become a non-corporeal being, yet still keeping the "human" tagged attached to their name, despite not being a human by any stretch.


Valk isn't a sith(species) by any stretch either. In fact given Valk was last physically a human, why should we assume a title for valk rather than vitiate would refer to what he was as his vitiate incarnation? Valk being an ancient human or sith entity works just fine as regardless of whether his human or sith state is referred to, Valk remains ancient. There's absolutely no reason for this quote to specifically be referring to Valk as the species sith and frankly given this is a description for Valkorian instead of vitiate it would make more sense that his physical form as Valkorian would be referenced here.

Why should we grasp at straws to twist this quote when I've provided a perfectly logical explanation which reconciles all the material on the matter? You're creating a contradiction where there isn't one.





Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What? Not getting your point here at all. Change the quote around to....

"Aundrae is an ancient human apparition with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the world."

That would be absolutely the same thing, no difference whatsoever, doesn't make me a human, tho.
Right and Valk being a (species sith) entity wouldn't make him a (species sith)

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
@DC: Told you.

It's almost like talking to a brick wall, lel.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Satele saying anything about it is pointless because there's nothing different, he could have just been more powerful. A new philosophy doesn't mean anything if nothing different is shown, there are various Force groups that see the Force as something different, but it's still the Force. That and as I recall we see later Jedi and Sith fighting more evenly against Users using this new philosophy. Which is just the Force....it's nothing new other than belief in where it comes from. I don't see why Satele would manipulate the Outlander or make shit up to look cool.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It's almost like talking to a brick wall, lel.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see why Satele would manipulate the Outlander or make shit up to look cool.

Bad writing?...I mean look what TOR did to the OR era...they tried to make it close to how the movies have it aesthetic wise and that just....completely takes away what was before.

Or just not understanding the philosophy which would make sense. Either way, there's nothing new, the only thing different is those guys believing that their power came from believing in Valk or...whatever.

Satele and Marr aren't sided with Valkorion, jesus christ. Marr explicitly states that even Valkorion doesn't fully understand the force.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't see why Satele would manipulate the Outlander or make shit up to look cool.
clearly you didn't read what the fck I said. Satele is misinformed because she's basing her crap of a sect Valk created to sever his ends

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Satele and Marr aren't sided with Valkorion, jesus christ. Marr explicitly states that even Valkorion doesn't fully understand the force.
Doesn't matter whether they sided with him or not, they, like the outlander have no idea about his endgame

His endgame has absolutely nothing to do with being a sith.

He actually wants to enforce his new philosophy on the galaxy. A philosophy that is neither jedi or sith, as has been explained numerous times.

Saying that Satele was trying to act cool and made shit up to stay relevant and this is all just bad writing is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen. No offense.

In any case, the fact that there is no revelations about such a major plot twist/deceit that is heavily relevant to the story+Satele's own experiences, virtuous character, knowledge of the Force++the fact that Arcann and co or the rest of zakuul never noticed anything different after Valk died/they betrayed him, which didn't draw any attention >>>>>>>>>>> your baseless opinions

Originally posted by Sinious
Saying that Satele was trying to act cool and made shit up to stay relevant and this is all just bad writing is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen. No offense.

In any case, the fact that there is no revelations about such a major plot twist/deceit that is heavily relevant to the story+Satele's own experiences, virtuous character, knowledge of the Force++the fact that Arcann and co or the rest of zakuul never noticed anything different after Valk died/they betrayed him, which didn't draw any attention >>>>>>>>>>> your baseless opinions

That's what I was saying, the 'new' philosophy didn't amount to anything.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His endgame has absolutely nothing to do with being a sith.

He actually wants to enforce his new philosophy on the galaxy. A philosophy that is neither jedi or sith, as has been explained numerous times.

We need agree/disagree/like buttons, on the posts.

No, it didnt amount to the shallow assumption of "Valk is faking his new philosophy to get servants and appear as non-Sith".

You still did not explain why Satele decided to betray everything she lived for, lied to everyone and manipulated the Outlander and wasted his time, just like you did not explain why Arcan and co didn't notice that his Father's philosophy is BS.

Also, I'm curious what you think about Zakuul being a balance between light and dark.

Originally posted by Sinious
No, it didnt amount to the shallow assumption of "Valk is faking his new philosophy to get servants and appear as non-Sith".

You still did not explain why Satele decided to betray everything she lived for, lied to everyone and manipulated the Outlander and wasted his time, just like you did not explain why Arcan and co didn't notice that his Father's philosophy is BS.

Also, I'm curious what you think about Zakuul being a balance between light and dark.

I'm not explaining, because that's not what I'm saying at all.

All I was pointing out, was that Valk's philosophy wasn't some new avenue with how to use The Force.

It doesn't have to be outright superior. The fact that it is different and new (so unknown) making it harder for Sith/Jedi to fight them makes sense, and Satele's experience/observations/knowledge on this is much more reliable than your opinion, especially when her opinion fits in with the entire story much better.

The important point here is that it is DIFFERENT.

Originally posted by Sinious
It doesn't have to be outright superior. The fact that it is different and new (so unknown) making it harder for Sith/Jedi to fight them makes sense, and Satele's experience/observations/knowledge on this is much more reliable than your opinion, especially when her opinion fits in with the entire story much better.

The important point here is that it is DIFFERENT.

How is it hard to fight against them or any different, when it was still just TK, Lighting and the like...the same powers that the Jedi and Sith use? What would be so different, that it'd be difficult to fight them? Even then, this difficulty apparently didn't last.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
How is it hard to fight against them or any different, when it was still just TK, Lighting and the like...the same powers that the Jedi and Sith use?

We dunno. It supposedly has something about it that makes it different, some new philosophy, but we do not see that philosophy, we do not see the idea, we do not see the difference in approach, how exactly this boring overdone "balance" works, we do not see any difference in their training, in their skills... nothing, lol. There definitely IS something like this, everything supports that (Satele on top, the story itself too)... but it is nowhere demonstrated. We're just supposed to believe there is a difference, lmao.

Just terrible writing to the boot.

Not sure why it is so hard to understand this.

Ok Sin I think we got crossed somewhere, because I was agreeing with that.

You got crossed where you said this:



The point is that it definitely is a new avenue with which how to use the force, but like bart said, that's not truly expressed in any way, shape, or form.

Didn't sidious tell Anakin they studied both the light and the darkside, didn't plagueis have something like that too?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His endgame has absolutely nothing to do with being a sith.

He actually wants to enforce his new philosophy on the galaxy. A philosophy that is neither jedi or sith, as has been explained numerous times.

I guess I fail to see why it can't fit with Sith. Bane had a different philosophy on the force from the Sith yet he was still a Sith. I fail to see how this is different.

Simply having a different view on the force does not necessarily make one not a Sith.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Didn't sidious tell Anakin they studied both the light and the darkside, didn't plagueis have something like that too?

They did, but never integrated it into their sith philosophy, in anyway.

@Ares

Did you read through a single post in this thread?

Originally posted by ares834
I guess I fail to see why it can't fit with Sith. Bane had a different philosophy on the force from the Sith yet he was still a Sith. I fail to see how this is different.

Simply having a different view on the force does not necessarily make one not a Sith.

It was different with Bane because he was attempting to perpetuate the Sith order, just in a different way. It's stated by Boyd that Vitiate found Sith philosophy in general to be a "dead end" and that's what led him to seek out Zakuul, where he fell in love with their philosophy.

Originally posted by Sinious
@Ares

Did you read through a single post in this thread?

Chill

I like ares

Originally posted by Sinious
@Ares

Did you read through a single post in this thread?

I read it all. And it's absolute nonsense. The philosophy argument is self defeating. At it's most basic level, the way Sith view the force is ridiculously open ended. Sure, various characters may say Valkorion is not a Sith or does not follow their philosophy. But we see this happen with various other characters like Bane and Krayt. Guess what, they are still Sith.


So sure, perhaps Valkorion's view is different from the Sith's current philosophy. But that does not mean it is incompatible from the basic one (IE the rule of the strong etc...) that we see in various other Sith Orders.

"The Knights are united under their zealous devotion to their Eternal Emperor and their equally dogmatic adherence to their sense of justice. Believing that the force should only be used to enforce the law, the Knights of Zakuul explore all avenues of the Force. Encouraged to find balance while simultaneously exploring their limits, the Knights' relationship with the Force prevents them from viewing the enigmatic power as either light or dark.

The Knights are encouraged to share their findings with all of their pupils. This allows the order to act as a fluid cohesive whole, constantly testing their seemingly limitless prowess with the Force. However, regardless of their ability, Knights acted to honor the Immortal Emperor. They were expected, and often gladly did, sacrifice materials or life simply to reinforce their commitment to the throne."

Yeah, that doesn't mix with Sith Ideology.

Seems fairly similar to Krayt's One Sith.

Edit: And regardless, Valkorion certainly does not act like one of the Knights.

Originally posted by ares834
Seems fairly similar to Krayt's One Sith.

Edit: And regardless, Valkorion certainly does not act like one of the Knights.

Similar apart from the whole, strive for Balance, and the whole no light or dark view.
Which is a big no for Sith ideology.

Edit: doesn't change the fact that he has opened himself to the lightside view, and integrated it.

The light and dark thing is irrelevant to Sith.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It was different with Bane because he was attempting to perpetuate the Sith order, just in a different way. It's stated by Boyd that Vitiate found Sith philosophy in general to be a "dead end" and that's what led him to seek out Zakuul, where he fell in love with their philosophy.

I'm done trying to explain the simplest thing over and over again.

I guess I fail to see much of a difference. Bane also found Sith Philosophy to be a dead end and created his own. The point being, why Valkorion's philosophy may be incompatible with the current Sith. There is nothing to prove it contradicts the basic Sith tenets.

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm done trying to explain the simplest thing over and over again.



That's because you haven't. Sure, Marr and others say Valkorion is not a Sith as he doesn't follow their philosophy. Guess what, Bane says the same thing about Krayt.

Originally posted by ares834
I guess I fail to see much of a difference. Bane also found Sith Philosophy to be a dead end and created his own. The point being, why Valkorion's philosophy may be incompatible with the current Sith. There is nothing to prove it contradicts the basic Sith tenets.

It is incompatible with the ancient sith as well, can you find any Sith that have integrated the Lights philosophy into their teachings. And it is relevant to the sith. Just read there code.

Originally posted by ares834


That's because you haven't. Sure, Marr and others say Valkorion is not a Sith as he doesn't follow their philosophy. Guess what, Bane says the same thing about Krayt. You comparing One SITH and SITH'ari to the guy who competely disowns the Sith and creates an entirely new non-Sith Empire and Force Order.

Gravid?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
It is incompatible with the ancient sith as well, can you find any Sith that have integrated the Lights philosophy into their teachings. And it is relevant to the sith. Just read there code.

Except that's not what is said in your quote at all... It says they don't view the force as dark or light, that doesn't mean they embrace the philosophy of both the Jedi and Sith.

Well I think the distinction is this:

Bane found the sith philosophy of his time dead because the order had become a bunch of simpering masters. The example he looked toward for true Sith were people like Revan, Sadow, and Exar Kun, and that's how he wanted his SITH line to be run.

With Valkorion, it's stated that the philosophies of Kun/Sadow/Ragnos (the phiosophies he was raised on, with the most basic of Sith ideologies) he found to be a complete dead end, and sought out another philosophy entirely in that of Zakuul (which is completely untouched by Sith or Jedi,) and he quickly fell in love with it. I honestly find this to be no different than someone like, say, Revan, changing from being a Jedi to being a Sith, and from being a Sith to being a Jedi. Hell, I think this is a perfect comparison, because even Jedi Revan had at one point "wielded tremendous dark side power," but you wouldnt exactly call him a Sith.

This, in unison with the litany of quotes about how Valkorion isn't a Sith, about how he ended the Great Galactic War because he wanted to care for his children, how he wanted to experience real love on Zakuul, etc, prove to me that he's not a Sith, even if he's still a dick.

Originally posted by slayne
Gravid?

And went insane in the process, Sabotaging the sith putting the rule of 2 order back centuries. yeah they don't mix well.

Originally posted by Sinious
You comparing One SITH and SITH'ari to the guy who competely disowns the Sith and creates an entirely new non-Sith Empire and Force Order.

Well, yes. Because it's a similar case. The point being, simply because someone calls you a heretic or says you aren't a Sith doesn't mean you aren't. And that is what the entire "philosophy argument" hinges on.

Now let's be clear, I'm not arguing Valkorion is a Sith. There are plenty of other cases that can and have been made. I am arguing agaisnt this argument however because frankly, I think it sucks.

It's based on the entirety of the story, lmfao.

What? I've got no clue what you are trying to say.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It was different with Bane because he was attempting to perpetuate the Sith order, just in a different way. It's stated by Boyd that Vitiate found Sith philosophy in general to be a "dead end" and that's what led him to seek out Zakuul, where he fell in love with their philosophy.

@Ares

Does it mean that the Zakuulian empire was already Sith, or did it become Sith when Valkorian(Vitiate) took power, and changed nothing.

It would of had to been already or this statement quoted above doesn't make sense.

It doesn't have to mean anything for the Eternal Empire. They can still remain non-Sith just under the control of a Sith Lord who embraced some of their teachings.

Originally posted by ares834
It doesn't have to mean anything for the Eternal Empire. They can still remain non-Sith just under the control of a Sith Lord who embraced some of their teachings.

He clearly abandoned his sith philosophy's over this one.

Uh, no he certainly did not. Based on your quote the Knights embraced Justice and self-sacrifice something Valkorion did not do.

Ares, respond to my post, tbh.

Well there isn't much to disagree on. Like I said, I'm not arguing that Valkorion isn't a Sith and you've moved past the philosophy argument to something else.

Fair enough.

It is a unique application of the Force, which is foreign to Jedi and Sith. We're not obliged to explain how this new way works. It is extreme nonsense anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a thing in Legends continuity now.

Satele Shan outright claims they couldn't defeat Arcann because of this appliaction of the Force. I see no reason to think she is lying or doesn't know what she is talking about. This added to the fact the entire story shows how Zakuul is so different and Valk constantly spamming non-Sith stuff makes it more solid.

Foreign to the current Sith. Anyway, perhaps I've should have made it clearer, but one the biggest things about the Sith is that they don't restrict themselves, at least not intentionally. So if the Zakuul's view does provide more power, it wouldn't be against the Sith way to embrace it.

Embracing a different approach on Sith is not the same as explicitly disowning the Sith entirely and then creating a new Empire with a unique application of the Force that makes it harder for Sith/Jedi to fight against.

What are you all on about? You could argue that Tenebrae was never really attached to the Sith to begin with, but the entire point was he didn't change--ever. At all. Under his various masks, he's still the same paranoid, murderous psychopath he was as a child. It's literally his defining character trait.

Originally posted by Sinious
Embracing a different approach on Sith is not the same as explicitly disowning the Sith entirely and then creating a new Empire with a unique application of the Force that makes it harder for Sith/Jedi to fight against.

And like I said, that's not against the Sith way.

I never said what he did isn't similar to what a Sith would do. Doesn't change the fact that he isn't a Sith anymore.

But that's literally what we have been arguing about...

So? My point is (assuming you're referring to my first sentence), if you can't reach the conclusion of Valk being a Sith with your line of thought (which you can't), this line of thought becomes irrelevant to the topic at hand.

facepalm

I have not once said Valk is a Sith in this thread nor have I argued that he is. Good lord. And no, it is not irrelevant when I argue against a case certain people have made.