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The Sith. Yoda ain't as young as he once was.

Originally posted by ares834
The Sith. Yoda ain't as young as he once was. nor is Sheev.

Sidious and Vader.

I'm gonna give the Jedi a slight nod in this fight. Teamwork is gonna be key, and the Jedi have way more synergy than the sith.

Sith, definitely.

sith, esb yoda was literally only keeping himself alive with the force, and esb luke and qui gon are both weak links

Sith without that much difficulty.

Sith steamroll

The dark lord of the Sith.

Sith body

Jinn gets wrecked, Luke eats lightning then the Jedi lose hard.

Maul kills Qui-Gon, Sidious kills Yoda, Vader fends off Luke, Tyranus takes Obi-Wan...

fvck

The Sith may've bitten off more than they can chew.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Vader fends off Luke

0_o

Sry; thought it was RotJ Luke.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Sry; thought it was RotJ Luke.

0_o

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
0_o
Waluigi beats both

Windu can hold off Vader.
Qui-Gon and Luke can hold off Maul.
Old Ben can hold off Dooku.

However Yoda likely can't hold off Palpatine at this point, hence why the Sith win.

QGJ is the weak link, but Mace solos anyway

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Windu can hold off Vader.
Qui-Gon and Luke can hold off Maul.
Old Ben can hold off Dooku.

However Yoda likely can't hold off Palpatine at this point, hence why the Sith win. that's how you see it? I look at it more like this:

Luke holds off Vader for a few minutes
Old ben three shots young maul and then helps Luke beat vader
Qui gon and windu beat Dooku
Then they all team up to fight Sidious

Yoda kills Sidious
Ben beats Maul
Luke stalemates Vader
Qui-Gon and Mace beat or stalemate Dooku

Maul will fall first and fast, after which Ben can either help Luke or Qui-Gon and Mace. If Sidious is still alive at this point he falls.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yoda kills Sidious
Ben beats Maul
Luke stalemates Vader
Qui-Gon and Mace beat or stalemate Dooku

Maul will fall first and fast, after which Ben can either help Luke or Qui-Gon and Mace. If Sidious is still alive at this point he falls.



This is ESB Yoda. Sidious can effortlessly stomp him. Yoda's a super old hermit that's barely alive.

This is ESB Luke. A toying Vader kicked his ass. Full-out Vader will damn near if not stomp him.

Maul can surely put up a fight against Ben, and Qui-Gon can honestly be stomped by Dooku in the Force. He might not be a factor. Sidious vs Yoda and Luke vs Vader, with the given iterations, is a stomp. The Sith simply have the advantage.

Originally posted by thesithmaster


This is ESB Yoda. Sidious can effortlessly stomp him. Yoda's a super old hermit that's barely alive.

This is ESB Luke. A toying Vader kicked his ass. Full-out Vader will damn near if not stomp him.

Maul can surely put up a fight against Ben, and Qui-Gon can honestly be stomped by Dooku in the Force. He might not be a factor. Sidious vs Yoda and Luke vs Vader, with the given iterations, is a stomp. The Sith simply have the advantage.

Yoda became more powerful than Sidious could ever dream of, just because he didn't had a fight doesn't mean he was weak. Don't judge a Jedi by his age or body...

Ben already oneshot Maul pretty easily. This is a non fight.

ESB Luke hold his own for a while and this is all it needs.

Qui-Gon is on par with Mace in Saber and on par in the Force with Dooku and both together would keep Dooku, who indeed is superior to both individually but only at sabers, at bay. But nice of you to just take Mace out of your "equation" to make it work for the sith.

Seems you don't really understand much about the force it seems and those chars. But to each his own.

WTF?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
WTF?

Sorry, right, he is superior in the Force (light side) to Dooku and of course inferior in the Dark Side, which makes them pretty even.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yoda became more powerful than Sidious could ever dream of, just because he didn't had a fight doesn't mean he was weak. Don't judge a Jedi by his age or body...

Ben already oneshot Maul pretty easily. This is a non fight.

ESB Luke hold his own for a while and this is all it needs.

Qui-Gon is on par with Mace in Saber and on par in the Force with Dooku and both together would keep Dooku, who indeed is superior to both individually but only at sabers, at bay. But nice of you to just take Mace out of your "equation" to make it work for the sith.

Seems you don't really understand much about the force it seems and those chars. But to each his own.

Yoda never became more powerful than Sidious could dream of as of ESB. He hadn't died. Yoda is clearly struggling to keep himself alive, Sidious is still a powerhouse. Sidious can stomp ESB Yoda.

Ben three-shotted Maul when amped to degree where he was nigh-unbeatable, when Maul had chunks of his legs falling, was exhausted and thirsty from wandering the desert for weeks, and was a mental wreck, whereas Kenobi was in the perfect mental state- which is important given the fight was labeled a psychological fight. The scene was also a tribute to Seven Samurai where the final duel lasted two blows. It's pretty clear you favor the Jedi over the Sith but at least acknowledge context.

ESB Luke cannot hold his own against a serious Vader. Vader can just Force Choke him and crush his windpipe, or blow him away with a Force Push.

Qui-Gon isn't on par with Mace saber-wise, LMAO. Explain then why Mace's canonical inferior in TPM Maul casually stalemated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together.

Qui-Gon superior to Dooku in the Force? Qui-Gon is the definition of featless in the Force, while Dooku has some of the most impressive feats in the mythos. Dooku can ragdoll him, even with Mace around. Then it becomes Mace vs Dooku, which could honestly go both ways- Mace is more skilled and stronger but Dooku is considerably more powerful.

I didn't take Mace out. It's just that Qui-Gon is such a non-factor Dooku can blow him away. You paired the combatants like this:
Yoda vs Sidious
Ben vs Maul
Luke vs Vader
Qui-Gon and Mace vs Dooku
If you pair them up like this, this is how the fights are going to go:
Yoda vs Sidious- Sidious stomps
Ben vs Maul- Ben, but no stomp
Luke vs Vader- Vader stomps
Team vs Dooku- Either way

Which means Sidious and Vader will be available right at the beginning. Vader can help Dooku against the team, which makes it a slaughterhouse in favor of the Sith, Sidious can one-shot Ben with the flick of his wrist, then all Sith gang up on Jinn and Windu. Or Vader can help Maul against Ben, and Sidious can help Dooku by blitzing Jinn and killing Mace in two blows.

With this set of matchups (or any set of matchups, really) the Sith win. That's really all there is to it.

^Soooo much wrong.

Yoda died at an age of around 900, he was around 878 when he fought Sidious. That's more or less 22 years, for a Human like Sidious who was already old, it's a problem but for someone who lived for hundreds of years not so much, compared to a human it would be like 2 years apart. He was not in a worse shape during RotJ, he just wanted to become one with the force, like Qui-Gon and Ben. So he can most likely amp himself to his RotS levels and on top of this his power in the force was growing...

You favour sith, "thesithmaster" so you have to accuse others of bias to cover your own. Maul was so far below Old Ben, that it was laughable. Deal with it. Some people grow in power, others don't. Maul stayed on his previous levels, Ben advanced. He is in another ballpart, force and Saber wise. On par with the best.

ESB Luke hold his own for a prolonged time. Watch the movie, you might dislike it but he impressed Vader.

Rock, scizor, paper. Mace has a good technique against Dark Side users but is inferior to the likes of Yoda in pure skill and Sabre Fight, where he cannot amp himself from them. Qui gon sparred with him to a draw in the books.

TPM Maul was hard pressed and retreating till Qui-Gon and Ben were seperated and Qui-Gon was in a room that was hindering his technique, nothing was casual "lol at the bias". After this Ben as a Padawan still defeated Maul, solo.

Not in the Dark Side but the light side for sure. He became one with the force, something only a selected few achieved. His knowledge and understanding, his connection to the force suprassed his old master in the end. Dooku turned to the dark side. Dooku is more skilled than Mace and more powerful in the Force but anyway it's a 2 v 1 and he can't win.

Sorry but I don't engage biased trolls in circular discussion. So I stay with my stance, stay with yours, don't really care about the BS you wrote.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Soooo much wrong.

Yoda died at an age of around 900, he was around 878 when he fought Sidious. That's more or less 22 years, for a Human like Sidious who was already old, it's a problem but for someone who lived for hundreds of years not so much, compared to a human it would be like 2 years apart. He was not in a worse shape during RotJ, he just wanted to become one with the force, like Qui-Gon and Ben. So he can most likely amp himself to his RotS levels and on top of this his power in the force was growing...

You favour sith, "thesithmaster" so you have to accuse others of bias to cover your own. Maul was so far below Old Ben, that it was laughable. Deal with it. Some people grow in power, others don't. Maul stayed on his previous levels, Ben advanced. He is in another ballpart, force and Saber wise. On par with the best.

ESB Luke hold his own for a prolonged time. Watch the movie, you might dislike it but he impressed Vader.

Rock, scizor, paper. Mace has a good technique against Dark Side users but is inferior to the likes of Yoda in pure skill and Sabre Fight, where he cannot amp himself from them. Qui gon sparred with him to a draw in the books.

TPM Maul was hard pressed and retreating till Qui-Gon and Ben were seperated and Qui-Gon was in a room that was hindering his technique, nothing was casual "lol at the bias". After this Ben as a Padawan still defeated Maul, solo.

Not in the Dark Side but the light side for sure. He became one with the force, something only a selected few achieved. His knowledge and understanding, his connection to the force suprassed his old master in the end. Dooku turned to the dark side. Dooku is more skilled than Mace and more powerful in the Force but anyway it's a 2 v 1 and he can't win.

Sorry but I don't engage biased trolls in circular discussion. So I stay with my stance, stay with yours, don't really care about the BS you wrote. Nice argument! Bold!

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Some people grow in power, others don't. Maul stayed on his previous levels, Ben advanced.



This is true.


Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

He is in another ballpart, force and Saber wise. On par with the best.


Given Maul was a match for Ashoka, and Ben still a little below Vader, by all logic the power gap between Ben and Maul has to be a lot smaller than they made out.

I (personally) just think it was the wrong fight for Maul given:

1) Filoni describes Kenobi as being very "zen" and Maul as being "over primed" for that fight.
2) Witwer describes how Ben suckered Maul by shifting to Qui-Gon's stance, which Maul responded by using the same move against Ben that he used to kill Qui-Gon, which Ben was of course ready for.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Soooo much wrong.

Yoda died at an age of around 900, he was around 878 when he fought Sidious. That's more or less 22 years, for a Human like Sidious who was already old, it's a problem but for someone who lived for hundreds of years not so much, compared to a human it would be like 2 years apart. He was not in a worse shape during RotJ, he just wanted to become one with the force, like Qui-Gon and Ben. So he can most likely amp himself to his RotS levels and on top of this his power in the force was growing...

You favour sith, "thesithmaster" so you have to accuse others of bias to cover your own. Maul was so far below Old Ben, that it was laughable. Deal with it. Some people grow in power, others don't. Maul stayed on his previous levels, Ben advanced. He is in another ballpart, force and Saber wise. On par with the best.

ESB Luke hold his own for a prolonged time. Watch the movie, you might dislike it but he impressed Vader.

Rock, scizor, paper. Mace has a good technique against Dark Side users but is inferior to the likes of Yoda in pure skill and Sabre Fight, where he cannot amp himself from them. Qui gon sparred with him to a draw in the books.

TPM Maul was hard pressed and retreating till Qui-Gon and Ben were seperated and Qui-Gon was in a room that was hindering his technique, nothing was casual "lol at the bias". After this Ben as a Padawan still defeated Maul, solo.

Not in the Dark Side but the light side for sure. He became one with the force, something only a selected few achieved. His knowledge and understanding, his connection to the force suprassed his old master in the end. Dooku turned to the dark side. Dooku is more skilled than Mace and more powerful in the Force but anyway it's a 2 v 1 and he can't win.

Sorry but I don't engage biased trolls in circular discussion. So I stay with my stance, stay with yours, don't really care about the BS you wrote.

He might not be much older than he was during ROTS and AOTC and TPM but we clearly see Yoda struggle with lifting an X-Wing in ESB, whereas before ROTS we see Yoda holding back a mountain without much more difficulty. It's clear he decreased, and by a lot. We also see how he is old and decrepit and how he died just one year later.

Maul is below Ben by a big margin, yes, but not enough for him to stomp. There were circumstances involved, but you keep ignoring them. Acknowledge the circumstances. I know it's hard to admit that the Jedi aren't the best, but Ben can't stomp Maul. In a legitimate fight at least.

ESB Luke only 'held his own' because Vader allowed it. With one hand, Vader floored a two-handed Luke, and when Luke actually tried to attack Vader, he was disarmed in six blows. Vader was screwing around with Luke, and could have killed him any time he wanted to.

I have never seen this source before. And anyway, that is Legends. This thread is Canon only as per the OP.

That's Legends, not Canon. This thread only looks at Canon. Even in Legends, that was when Qui-Gon had gained new strength during the circumstancial pause for meditation and caught Maul off guard with it.

"He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied."

"He was gathering himself for a final assault, bringing himself in tune with the Force."

Both from the TPM novel. Qui-Gon managed to press Maul for a few seconds after he had a circumstancial pause which allowed him to gain strength and surprise Maul. Before that, it was all a ruse to lure Qui-Gon, which is confirmed in Wrath of Darth Maul.

"Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you."

When Maul wasn't luring Qui-Gon, he was casually wrecking Qui-Gon and Kenobi. I've explained this so many times on Comic Vine, so if you want to see the explanation go over there. I'm tired of educating people about this fight, and how Maul was superior to his opposition. Anyway, this is Legends, so not relevant to this thread. Just felt like teaching you a lesson or two.

Yes, Ben defeated Maul solo when Maul was caught off guard. Maul tossed Kenobi away in the actual fight. In Legends, it was outright confirmed to be luck in the novel. Apart from that, he only managed to briefly drive Maul back with a rage boost that massively amplified his powers- which worked even more given it caught Maul off guard. After Maul gained his composure, Kenobi was tossed away (or physically owned, as depicted in the novel). Maul was far more formidable than both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace, let alone against either Jedi individually.

That's all beautiful, but how does that translate into combative power? Becoming a Force Ghost means zero in combat. Dooku lifted multiple stones in the several ton range and collapsed a cave, Qui-Gon did nothing. In Canon, there's really nothing that stops Dooku from ragdolling Jinn. The same applies to Legends.

Mace is more skilled than Dooku, given he's eight bordering on nine whereas Dooku is just eight- and being eight doesn't make him equal to Windu, because Nick Gillard noted there can be huge differences within the tiers.

It's a 2 v 1, sure, but that doesn't make Jinn imune to a ragdoll. If you have top tier and fodder vs top tier, then that fodder is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yoda became more powerful than Sidious could ever dream of, just because he didn't had a fight doesn't mean he was weak. Don't judge a Jedi by his age or body...

You realize ESB Yoda was literally having to use the force to not die?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You realize ESB Yoda was literally having to use the force to not die?
RotS sheev was amazed he could still run without using the force in the novel. Both are old and decrepit. Plus wouldn't it go against Yoda's belief to hold-on unnaturally?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This is true.




Given Maul was a match for Ashoka, and Ben still a little below Vader, by all logic the power gap between Ben and Maul has to be a lot smaller than they made out.

I (personally) just think it was the wrong fight for Maul given:

1) Filoni describes Kenobi as being very "zen" and Maul as being "over primed" for that fight.
2) Witwer describes how Ben suckered Maul by shifting to Qui-Gon's stance, which Maul responded by using the same move against Ben that he used to kill Qui-Gon, which Ben was of course ready for. ^
I have to disagree there. When it comes to skill my logic is:

On top: Yoda, Dooku and Luke (Legends)
I think that Yoda was the epitome of the Force and Saber fight. A notch above Sidious, as we see in their fight in RotS, where Sidious lost his Saber off screen, logic implies that Yoda most likely disarmed him. Even at the Force Battle Yoda tanked and pushed, to Sidious suprise, the lightning back at him. The backlash affected both.
Luke because of Legends.
Count Dooku. In pure Saber, his skill were shown to be on par with Yodas. Sidious is more powerful in the Dark Side and in an all out fight he would beat him, that's true but pure skill Dooku was perfection. An before any smartass says that Anakin beat him. Yes, but Anakin also lost even with help against Dooku before, multiple times. One gets lucky and if feeded by the Dark Side it's possible. The skywalkers are a special breed.

A notch below: Sidious, Vader and Ben
Sidious because he is the avatar of the Dark Side. I still see him as the power user not the pure duellist. Though he is near the top, no doubt.
Vader because this is what he did best and he has a lot of practice.
Ben beat him before and their last fight, which ended in Bens death, was not a win for Vader, on the contrary. We can't say for sure who would have won. Ben threw the fight but imho he was up to the challange.

A notch more below: Mace, Qui-Gon
As said, rock paper scizor describes it best. A less skilled opponent might win against a superior one with the right tools. It's like an Axe against an Spear, or a Spear against an Axe, or a Sword against an Spear. You get the point.
Mace is skilled no doubt, one of the best but his technique works best against DS user. Someone who is both like Dooku would outskill him.
Qui-Gon lost because of circumstances, even so I would say that some forms of the Dark Side are better suited against his style.

Still a notch below: Luke ESB
Luke advanced faster than he should, he gave Vader a challange in ESB (he lost but was impressive) and after 3 years he surprassed his father in Sabers, which is retarded but this is what it means to be a Skywalker.

And a little below that: Maul
Maul was very skilled, a trained Jedi Assasine. His technique and his training were just there to fight Jedi, he performed once very good and is extremely skilled but if faced with someone at Sidious, Vader or above levels he just can't compete.

One thing to add. Why I rate Qui-Gon so high. It's a simple Logic. Yoda was Dookus master, and both are the epitome of Saber duelling skills (pure skill that is). Dooku was Qui-Gons Master and he trained him well, to assume otherwise would be foolish. Qui-Gon trained Ben who is kind of OP. It's near impossible for Jinn to be as bad as the people want him to be.

You do know Lucas has already created a ranking system for the combat skills of the film characters?

And that it doesn't come close to yours?

BTW, the time gap between ESB and ROTJ was one year, not three years.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^
I have to disagree there. When it comes to skill my logic is:

On top: Yoda, Dooku and Luke (Legends)
I think that Yoda was the epitome of the Force and Saber fight. A notch above Sidious, as we see in their fight in RotS, where Sidious lost his Saber off screen, logic implies that Yoda most likely disarmed him. Even at the Force Battle Yoda tanked and pushed, to Sidious suprise, the lightning back at him. The backlash affected both.
Luke because of Legends.
Count Dooku. In pure Saber, his skill were shown to be on par with Yodas. Sidious is more powerful in the Dark Side and in an all out fight he would beat him, that's true but pure skill Dooku was perfection. An before any smartass says that Anakin beat him. Yes, but Anakin also lost even with help against Dooku before, multiple times. One gets lucky and if feeded by the Dark Side it's possible. The skywalkers are a special breed.

A notch below: Sidious, Vader and Ben
Sidious because he is the avatar of the Dark Side. I still see him as the power user not the pure duellist. Though he is near the top, no doubt.
Vader because this is what he did best and he has a lot of practice.
Ben beat him before and their last fight, which ended in Bens death, was not a win for Vader, on the contrary. We can't say for sure who would have won. Ben threw the fight but imho he was up to the challange.

A notch more below: Mace, Qui-Gon
As said, rock paper scizor describes it best. A less skilled opponent might win against a superior one with the right tools. It's like an Axe against an Spear, or a Spear against an Axe, or a Sword against an Spear. You get the point.
Mace is skilled no doubt, one of the best but his technique works best against DS user. Someone who is both like Dooku would outskill him.
Qui-Gon lost because of circumstances, even so I would say that some forms of the Dark Side are better suited against his style.

Still a notch below: Luke ESB
Luke advanced faster than he should, he gave Vader a challange in ESB (he lost but was impressive) and after 3 years he surprassed his father in Sabers, which is retarded but this is what it means to be a Skywalker.

And a little below that: Maul
Maul was very skilled, a trained Jedi Assasine. His technique and his training were just there to fight Jedi, he performed once very good and is extremely skilled but if faced with someone at Sidious, Vader or above levels he just can't compete.

Again, this is just...

Sidious was rated as a tier nine in lightsaber combat. Dooku was labeled eight. It's a "huge jump from one level to another" so I'm not sure how Dooku can be one notch above Sidious.

Also, how is ESB Luke above Maul? Luke got his ass kicked by a toying Vader. Maul at least stalemated Qui-Gon+TPM Kenobi and was a tier 8 before he hit his peak. When he hit his peak, he beat TCW Kenobi pretty decisively, murked a version of Savage capable of beating the likes of Ventress, easily tossed General Grievous away (even in Canon, Grievous has stalemated TCW Kenobi) and lolstomped four late CW MagnaGuards.

The question is not whether Luke is or not better than Maul, it's whether Maul can or cannot stomp ESB Luke who is featless apart from getting murked by a toying Vader.

There's at least one source saying that ESB!Luke was a legitimate challenge for Vader.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
There's at least one source saying that ESB!Luke was a legitimate challenge for Vader.

Post them please.

There is a source saying otherwise (Fact Files) and the movie says otherwise- in the movie, a one-handed Vader floored a two-handed Luke, Vader disarmed Luke in six blows when Luke attacked more boldly. Once Luke landed a lucky scratch on Vader, Vader deemed the fight over and Luke had lost his hand four blows after- which means that a serious Vader ended the fight in a few blows. ESB Luke is only a challenge, at best, for a toying Vader- serious Vader can end the fight in a few blows, or seize Luke with the Force and throw him around.

Vader stopped toying with Luke when he flew off the balcony after Vader was throwing shit at him, I imagine.

Anyone want to spice up the thread an upgrade Luke to RotJ, Yoda to RotS?

Originally posted by Kurk
Anyone want to spice up the thread an upgrade Luke to RotJ, Yoda to RotS? Are you asking or outright saying that you're upgrading them? It is your thread after all....

Originally posted by deathslash
Are you asking or outright saying that you're upgrading them? It is your thread after all.... Sure why the fu*k not since it is pretty one-sided.

Originally posted by Kurk
Sure why the fu*k not since it is pretty one-sided. team one definitely loses now.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You do know Lucas has already created a ranking system for the combat skills of the film characters?

And that it doesn't come close to yours?

BTW, the time gap between ESB and ROTJ was one year, not three years.

Oh did he? Never saw a source, so please go ahead and post it ^^

team 2

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

As said, rock paper scizor describes it best. A less skilled opponent might win against a superior one with the right tools. It's like an Axe against an Spear, or a Spear against an Axe, or a Sword against an Spear.


Ironically this is exactly why you have to take Ben "stomping" Maul with a grain of salt.

Maul was too desperate to kill Ben, and never got over TPM fight, whereas Ben was a complete defensive fighter now just waiting calmly for Maul to attack him in a frenzy, and use his own attack against him (see Rebels S3 behind the scenes for Twin Suns).

Similarly Dooku always had Obi-Wan's number, which is why Kenobi never did well against him, yet was able to defeat the guy who trounced Dooku.

And Dooku himself never did too well against physical attacks (See Anakin and Savage in TCW), or unorthodox and unpredictable attacks (see Vos in Dark Disciple), hence why Maul would likely be a nightmare for Dooku.

since youre going by this pic isn't Yoda RotS version anyways as he has his lightsaber? also Mace Windu isn't in the original pic at all; I love the original, very artistic

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Oh did he? Never saw a source, so please go ahead and post it ^^
So no one has the interview where GL himself ranks them?

Though so.

"Never trust the Internet"
- Sokrates

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Oh did he? Never saw a source, so please go ahead and post it ^^
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard

It regards, to the full list, which has been gathered from emails, interviews, starwars.com, etc., I made the following to show where he (roughly) ranks everyone:

http://i.imgur.com/BCbiJgY.png

So, Sidious, RotS Anakin, and Yoda are 9s. Mace is bordering on 9. Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Maul are 8s. AotC Anakin, Fisto, and Qui-Gon (presumably) are 7s.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
So no one has the interview where GL himself ranks them?

Though so.

"Never trust the Internet"
- Sokrates

https://media.tenor.com/images/ab297913a8def775baf015ac599f0e20/tenor.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard

It regards, to the full list, which has been gathered from emails, interviews, starwars.com, etc., I made the following to show where he (roughly) ranks everyone:

http://i.imgur.com/BCbiJgY.png

So, Sidious, RotS Anakin, and Yoda are 9s. Mace is bordering on 9. Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Maul are 8s. AotC Anakin, Fisto, and Qui-Gon (presumably) are 7s.

So no Georg Lucas interview, no direct quote from the Man who created this, just the opinion of an stuntman? Nothing, really, that's all? Oh, why did I even bother to ask.

Juicy.

The quote explicitly states Lucas worked on the leveling system - Gillard has, over the years, remarked what the leveling system consisted up.

Thus, Gillard is merely telling, via interviews, emails, starwars.com, etc. what Lucas himself invented.

And lmfao @ "just the opinion of an stuntman." Gillard wrote all the fights and created the PT-era lightsaber combat style.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Juicy.

The quote explicitly states Lucas worked on the leveling system - Gillard has, over the years, remarked what the leveling system consisted up.

Thus, Gillard is merely telling, via interviews, emails, starwars.com, etc. what Lucas himself invented.

And lmfao @ "just the opinion of an stuntman." Gillard wrote all the fights and created the PT-era lightsaber combat style.

Ok, Georg Lucas was working on something and since there is nothing official from him, he never bothered to finish it. Sounds logical.
Now, this huge fan of the franchise wants to have some influence and makes stuff up that Lucas most likely forgot or never said.

He worked for Lucas and did his job, nothing more, he is not the authority on the canon, this is still Lucas and as long as we don't have anything official from him your point is moot.

Gillard has this and that but not Lucas, not hard to grasp me thinks.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Now, this huge fan of the franchise wants to have some influence and makes stuff up that Lucas most likely forgot or never said.
LMFAO WHAT

This sentence here has to be the funniest thing said on KMC in 2017.

Prof. T.C. McAbe has quite a history of this sort of stuff, IIRC.

Is he like Board Walker, or that blindly idiotic?

IIRC, the latter. Though isn't Board Walker the latter as well?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
IIRC, the latter. Though isn't Board Walker the latter as well? Board Walker is like LOB. Not actually retarded, just so committed to the joke that they never get out of character.

Interdasking.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO WHAT

This sentence here has to be the funniest thing said on KMC in 2017.

Amusing. Since I used the internet before it became a thing I noticed this.

Fans are often retards who try to enforce their opinion upon others by outright lying to others and arguing with the weakest argument of all "he said, she said" to make it a fact.

I see that you put some work into it but my question is a really simple one, simple enough for even people like you to grasp it. You say that Georg Lucas made such a ranking system because someone else said it. Fine. Georg Lucas is alive and participated in interviews, documentations, film books etc. It should hence be easy to find the right source where he directly references it. This is all I am asking. If there is nothing official, then there simply isn't.

And NG opinion or what he believes is not an official or canon source and never will be.

Funny enough I can't even find the ranking system on the wikis.

Take no offense because I call you out on your lies and your agenda. You can change my opinion by linking me the interview to GL referencing this system or the official book, film where it is referrenced. As said, this was all I asked for. I never asked for the opinion of actors, stuntman etc.

On a fun note. I read some SW books who were "officially approved" by GL and later he contradicted most of it's story because he didn't give a phuck and has his own vision of those things. So I take it with a huge grain of salt when people like NG who are labelled by wiki as "He also claims to be able to speak (and understand) Droidspeak and is still offering Jedi Training lessons similar to the ones he used to train the Prequel cast as shown on his official site." hardcore fans pretend to know something that GL never personally approved.

So, let's get this straight here for the record:

1.) George Lucas hires Nick Gillard to create a fighting style for the prequel trilogy and to write and choreograph the fight scenes.

2.) Nick Gillard states that George Lucas and himself worked on a leveling system for the characters.

3.) Nick Gillard reveals the leveling system to promotional interviews for the films, the official Star Wars website, etc.

Now, the logical assumption is that Nick Gillard is, well, telling people what Lucas and him did.

Your assumption, on the other hand, is that Nick Gillard is lying.

You are sitting here trying to tell us that Gillard, even though he co-created the leveling system, has no clue what it's actually about.

And then, jealous that Lucas never told him, he decided to make up his own system to tell to everyone?

Holy ****. That is... that is hands down the worst argument ever made on the history of KMC, and I have read the following:

> Arguments on why Darth Bane beats Darth Sidious.
> Arguments on why Obi-Wan Kenobi beats Exar Kun.
> Arguments on why Jensaari1 is a genius in disguise.
> Every terrible Azronger, Kbro, and Nephthys post ever.

And yet you, somehow, manage to trump that. I'm in actual shock here.

But then, then, you decide to accuse me of being a liar? ****ing rofl.

I have no clue your standing on other parts on KMC, but I assure you, in this Star Wars section, you have absolutely none.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, let's get this straight here for the record:

1.) George Lucas hires Nick Gillard to create a fighting style for the prequel trilogy and to write and choreograph the fight scenes.

2.) Nick Gillard states that George Lucas and himself worked on a leveling system for the characters.

3.) Nick Gillard reveals the leveling system to promotional interviews for the films, the official Star Wars website, etc.

Now, the logical assumption is that Nick Gillard is, well, telling people what Lucas and him did.

Your assumption, on the other hand, is that Nick Gillard is lying.

You are sitting here trying to tell us that Gillard, even though he co-created the leveling system, has no clue what it's actually about.

And then, jealous that Lucas never told him, he decided to make up his own system to tell to everyone?

Holy ****. That is... that is hands down the worst argument ever made on the history of KMC, and I have read the following:

> Arguments on why Darth Bane beats Darth Sidious.
> Arguments on why Obi-Wan Kenobi beats Exar Kun.
> Arguments on why Jensaari1 is a genius in disguise.
> Every terrible Azronger, Kbro, and Nephthys post ever.

And yet you, somehow, manage to trump that. I'm in actual shock here.

But then, then, you decide to accuse me of being a lying? ****ing rofl.

I have no clue your standing on other parts on KMC, but I assure you, in this Star Wars section, you have absolutely none.

You lack some reading skills and the necessary comprehension of what you read.

I say you are lying, not NG. GL might wanted to create a skill tier system, yet he never finished it or we would have it by now, officially. NG took it upon himself to create or finish it but it never became official. That's all. GL is alive and had plenty of time, he is not dead like Tolkien.

I saw this multiple times, in DB and Dark Sun. The letter ended with an official Champion count of 15 even though the creators had only 13.

I don't accuse you, I expose you and your agenda. It's funny how fans like you are the only source available and that there is nothing official on this matter.

Come back when you can show me an canon source, there are so many these days.

And lulz at the e-go, I don't even know who you are tbh.

I know that you are a huge fan and want your opinion to be canon so you do all this little "detective" work to help us get "your" facts straight. But I simply prefer the original source or at the very least something canon.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
You lack some reading skills and the necessary comprehension of what you read.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/THISGONBGUD.gif



You, 6 hours ago: Now, this huge fan of the franchise wants to have some influence and makes stuff up that Lucas most likely forgot or never said.



Looks like you're the one who's lying! This is never stated anywhere.

The fact Lucas never mentions something by himself does not mean he didn't create it.



The idea of Lucas abandoning the project and Gillard continuing it is not supported anywhere.

Seems like you're... well... lying.



You're sitting here telling us that Lucas' right-hand man is lying because you, presumably, don't like his findings.

We have no reason whatsoever to believe any of your claims, they are all entirely unsupported, especially that Nick Gillard is lying.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Amusing. Since I used the internet before it became a thing I noticed this.

Fans are often retards who try to enforce their opinion upon others by outright lying to others and arguing with the weakest argument of all "he said, she said" to make it a fact.

I see that you put some work into it but my question is a really simple one, simple enough for even people like you to grasp it. You say that Georg Lucas made such a ranking system because someone else said it. Fine. Georg Lucas is alive and participated in interviews, documentations, film books etc. It should hence be easy to find the right source where he directly references it. This is all I am asking. If there is nothing official, then there simply isn't.

And NG opinion or what he believes is not an official or canon source and never will be.

Funny enough I can't even find the ranking system on the wikis.

Take no offense because I call you out on your lies and your agenda. You can change my opinion by linking me the interview to GL referencing this system or the official book, film where it is referrenced. As said, this was all I asked for. I never asked for the opinion of actors, stuntman etc.

On a fun note. I read some SW books who were "officially approved" by GL and later he contradicted most of it's story because he didn't give a phuck and has his own vision of those things. So I take it with a huge grain of salt when people like NG who are labelled by wiki as "He also claims to be able to speak (and understand) Droidspeak and is still offering Jedi Training lessons similar to the ones he used to train the Prequel cast as shown on his official site." hardcore fans pretend to know something that GL never personally approved.

This is one of the funniest posts in KMC history...

^You have your own socks as cheerleaders? Maybe that "we" attitude is ok after all.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/THISGONBGUD.gif



You, 6 hours ago: Now, this huge fan of the franchise wants to have some influence and makes stuff up that Lucas most likely forgot or never said.



Looks like you're the one who's lying! This is never stated anywhere.

The fact Lucas never mentions something by himself does not mean he didn't create it.



The idea of Lucas abandoning the project and Gillard continuing it is not supported anywhere.

Seems like you're... well... lying.



You're sitting here telling us that Lucas' right-hand man is lying because you, presumably, don't like his findings.

We have no reason whatsoever to believe any of your claims, they are all entirely unsupported, especially that Nick Gillard is lying.

You referrenced my last post, the 6 hours ago is funny because it's valid, NG makes stuff up if he continous GLs "work" if there was any.

You know what also never stated in an canon source? This tier system of yours . But hey, I am in a good mood, you can convince me, show me a simple official source, again THAT's all I AM ASKING for .

The fact that GLs never mentioned that Han and Chewie had a homoerotic drunk adventure doesn't mean that GL never wrote it, even though HF implied it. I hope you understand how retarded this approach was...

Ok, going this "we have no reason" route means just that you are so desperate because someone exposed your lies that you try now to speak for everyone here? Lulz? Really? You are now we, the collective voice of all SW fans on top of being the source of canon on the tier system? Megalomaniac or just a fool? what is this BS I am reading here. Speak for yourself, grow some balls. People can choose what they believe and are no idiots who need to be feeded by the likes of you^^.


So, I am asking for one simple thing. The discussion will be over in an instant, I have wasted enough time with you. It's not even a hard or impossible task. If what you say is true, that GL created a tier system AND that it's official. Please, just tell me the canon source, video or book. I will get it and read or watch it myself. Something like this, if canon, is surely all over the place. If I would find it on any SW related wiki I would also have the source but since you are the only one saying it's true I have to ask you for it.

Jesus.

If Lucas created the leveling system, which he did as per Gillard, then it's G-Canon.

Good discussion. Moving on.

Your only claims are that Lucas didn't make it (Gillard says otherwise) or that Gillard is lying (unsupported).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


If Lucas created the leveling system, which he did as per Gillard, then it's G-Canon.

Good discussion. Moving on.

Your only claims are that Lucas didn't make it (Gillard says otherwise) or that Gillard is lying (unsupported).

Ok so no official source, just "he says, she says" arguments. Indeed, finally one SW myth busted. Thanks for the game. ^^

Which goes back to your unsupported claim that Nick Gillard, who worked on the list, is lying?

Truly, this is the worst argument I've ever seen. I feel you're trolling me, though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which goes back to your unsupported claim that Nick Gillard, who worked on the list, is lying?

Truly, this is the worst argument I've ever seen. I feel you're trolling me, though.
No, I say you are lying. I said it multiple times and you ignore it, it's a dumb and cheap tactic in debating like the "he said, she said" argument and the "WE don't believe you" route. Using the credibility of someone else or an imaginary audience that agrees with you.
GL might wanted to create something but obiously he didn't or never bothered. BTW, fun fact SW which he created as you know, started differently and had a lot of changes before it became the way it is. Think about it.

Maybe one day we will have this tier system referrenced somewhere officially or even in a canon source, who knows. Right now I go with the facts and such a tier list does simply not exist, officially.

Let's make it short: Does a tier list like yours exist officially? If yes, official source please.

What are you saying I'm lying about now, exactly?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What are you saying I'm lying about now, exactly?

facepalm

What a waste of time. You can't be that dense.

Ok, PM me once you posted a canon or official source to this tier list in this thread, then we will continue.

No, truly, tell the crowd, where did I lie?

I posted a quote from an interview on starwars.com.

Are you saying I forged the quote?

The quote, from Nick Gillard, stated George Lucas created the tier system.

That's not from me - that's from Nick Gillard... on the Star Wars website.

You're truly retarded. God damn.

It's also discussed in the Making of Revenge of the Sith, (Both the book and the feature). So completely valid and official source, and no, not even close to being a myth lol.