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Post Crisis only.

BA is not holding back. Hal knows this.
Fight is on barren planet like Earth. Hal has a full charge. Fighters start 2 miles away.

Hal after a long-ish fight.

BA ftw, elite flying bricks give Lanterns all type of trouble

Originally posted by Supermutant
BA ftw, elite flying bricks give Lanterns all type of trouble
See your mistake? The BA and the Marvels are not elite. Hal kills him.

Originally posted by zopzop
See your mistake? The BA and the Marvels are not elite. Hal kills him.

Of course Adam is elite. Not many flying bricks that can solo the JSA.

Originally posted by zopzop
See your mistake? The BA and the Marvels are not elite. Hal kills him.

what? Cap Marvel isn't too far from Superman. And Cap Marvel = Black Adam

Originally posted by Supermutant
what? Cap Marvel isn't too far from Superman. And Cap Marvel = Black Adam

No.

zop zop hates the Marvel family and loves to low ball them, it's fine we all have likes and dislikes.

Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
zop zop hates the Marvel family and loves to low ball them, it's fine we all have likes and dislikes.
^^^True.
I hate Black Panther.
I'm at least honest about him being a top tier character, and give him the nod when i think he'd win though.

Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
zop zop hates the Marvel family and loves to low ball them, it's fine we all have likes and dislikes.
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST.

Rating them THAT lowly does imply at least a little negative bias, to be fair.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST.

Adam has already beaten a higher Lantern than Hal. So, comics/feats disagree with you.

On average, this is how the fight would go down.

DiPocnEiS6Q

Hal Jordan after a good fight.Originally posted by Zack M
On average, this is how the fight would go down.

DiPocnEiS6Q This is what I thought before Hal Jordan got his recent upgrades.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Hal Jordan after a good fight. This is what I thought before Hal Jordan got his recent upgrades.

Well, no shit Hal wins with upgrades. He's basically a universal/multiversal level, seeing as he schooled Parallax (Zero Hour). But with no upgrades, I feel Adam has the better battle feats. He DID school the JSA and brought them hell with NO upgrades.

While comparing them both on-paper, I would definitely see that BA has a definite edge over Hal.

But then, I realize that I forgot to consider Hal's greatest asset:
His "Winningness". Not many characters have it, but when they do, it means that, rather than just giving the character a sudden, spontaneous power upgrade that does not really make sense, the writer will actually b compelled to create working, imaginative solutions to battles and problems that should b above the character's ability to overcome.
7 or 8 out of 10 battles that have Hal outgunned, will become a "victory" for Hal, due to his use of the "winningness" power.
Other characters who have shown posession of "winningness", to some degree, though most, less than Hal:
- Superman
- Captain America
- Spiderman
- Batman
And others.

BA "should" take this.
Hal "would" take this.

In my opinion.

Originally posted by Zack M
On average, this is how the fight would go down.

DiPocnEiS6Q

You mean the trailer that made everyone look weak bar the Supergod? That's not a great representation.

Zop, just for giggles who do you consider in DC as elite flying bricks?

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST.
I always thought of BA and CM as HH to be honest.

Where would you rate guys like say Gladiator and current Hyperion?

This is post crisis BA specifically being said to not hold back. That means one thing: speedblitz. Even with the two mile starting distance, he still has all day to walk over there and repeatedly punch Hal Jordan in the face.

And the Marvels and other champions can survive crazy things, BA had a tesseract in his head. Cap was turned inside out and survived.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST.

Lmao no dear just stop

Originally posted by -Pr-
Rating them THAT lowly does imply at least a little negative bias, to be fair.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lmao no dear just stop
Prove me wrong. CM and BA don't have the feats or fights to compare to true high heralds. I was also being super generous with my ranking of Mary M and Captain M Jr. I made a Mary Marvel Vs thread and Abhi (a knowledgeable DC poster) said she couldn't even make it past Wonder Man. I'm gonna bump that thread now.


Originally posted by Supermutant
Zop, just for giggles who do you consider in DC as elite flying bricks?
Superman, Orion, Wonder Woman with gear (Lasso/Sword/Tiara/Bracers), etc..

Originally posted by Facee
I always thought of BA and CM as HH to be honest.

Where would you rate guys like say Gladiator and current Hyperion?
Gladiator is on the low end of Mid Herald (like BA and CM). Hyperion is on the low/mid end of High Herald.

Didn't Mary Marvel bounce the Omega Effect right off her boobs?

Originally posted by zopzop
Prove me wrong. CM and BA don't have the feats or fights to compare to true high heralds. I was also being super generous with my ranking of Mary M and Captain M Jr. I made a Mary Marvel Vs thread and Abhi (a knowledgeable DC poster) said she couldn't even make it past Wonder Man. I'm gonna bump that thread now.



Superman, Orion, Wonder Woman with gear (Lasso/Sword/Tiara/Bracers), etc..


Gladiator is on the low end of Mid Herald (like BA and CM). Hyperion is on the low/mid end of High Herald.

You know their feats. Im not gonna scan dump to convince you. Marvel/Adam more or less equal to Regular Clark..its when he amps is when he is in a class of his own. They cant amp. Noone should bat an eye if either of them stalemated, lost to or beat him. They have enough on panel appearances with and against each other to compare and contrast. If i had to place a bet itd be Superman simply becsuse he has more feats to draw on.

Lol at Abhi. Yes hes knowledgeable but hes biased as phuck, and this coming from a gal who actually likes him. You might have well said H1 or Carver

Originally posted by Surtur
Didn't Mary Marvel bounce the Omega Effect right off her boobs?

She was amped then. Had black Adams powers and eclipse upgraded her. Also was just the beams she blocked with her hand and as noted DS was toying with her

Originally posted by zopzop
Prove me wrong. CM and BA don't have the feats or fights to compare to true high heralds. I was also being super generous with my ranking of Mary M and Captain M Jr. I made a Mary Marvel Vs thread and Abhi (a knowledgeable DC poster) said she couldn't even make it past Wonder Man. I'm gonna bump that thread now.

I'm speaking specifically about Adam and Billy. Are we both talking about post crisis, or are we getting wires crossed here and speaking about different versions?

Because at the very least, post crisis Adam has enough to put him even at WORST in the lower end of the high-herald bracket, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm speaking specifically about Adam and Billy. Are we both talking about post crisis, or are we getting wires crossed here and speaking about different versions?

Because at the very least, post crisis Adam has enough to put him even at WORST in the lower end of the high-herald bracket, imo.
It's definitely Post Crisis but there are so many different versions of them Post Crisis because of the various DC reboots no?

BA's best showing was the trouncing of the JSA and fighting that WWIII Super Hero Mob that jumped him. Those showings are sort of controversial because some people believe he was amped (by an extra god or something).

Aside from those showings what has he or Billy ever done? I know Abhi will bring up the demon possessed/mind controlled JLA vs Billy but how does that count? They obviously weren't fighting to the best of their abilities against him.

As to the thread :
Hal has killed a LEGIT Trans level being (at least), he's taken control of a universal ABSTRACT and forced it to his bidding, and not to mention all the space cheese feats the elite Lanterns have.

Originally posted by Surtur
Didn't Mary Marvel bounce the Omega Effect right off her boobs?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/7210f4bd0673c3a16b394300ae5104c4/tumblr_ouqk6cNSP91v5floko1_400.jpg

Eclipso/Bladam/Isis amped Mary....holding back Seid

Originally posted by zopzop
It's definitely Post Crisis but there are so many different versions of them Post Crisis because of the various DC reboots no?

BA's best showing was the trouncing of the JSA and fighting that WWIII Super Hero Mob that jumped him. Those showings are sort of controversial because some people believe he was amped (by an extra god or something).

Aside from those showings what has he or Billy ever done? I know Abhi will bring up the demon possessed/mind controlled JLA vs Billy but how does that count? They obviously weren't fighting to the best of their abilities against him.

As to the thread :
Hal has killed a LEGIT Trans level being (at least), he's taken control of a universal ABSTRACT and forced it to his bidding, and not to mention all the space cheese feats the elite Lanterns have.

What do you mean? Post Crisis to Flashpoint is one era in general. You can take them as one version if you like. In fact I encourage it.

That was debunked ages ago.

They've both fought against other heralds and done well enough to gauge their level. At least imo. I am curious though, how would you rate Billy and Adam against say, Diana? Or J'onn?

I actually sided with Hal at the start of the thread, so you'll get no argument from me about him winning.

Originally posted by zopzop

BA's best showing was the trouncing of the JSA and fighting that WWIII Super Hero Mob that jumped him. Those showings are sort of controversial because some people believe he was amped (by an extra god or something).



He wasnt amped.

Originally posted by -Pr-
What do you mean? Post Crisis to Flashpoint is one era in general. You can take them as one version if you like. In fact I encourage it.

That was debunked ages ago.
Was it? Originally I was in the 'no he wasn't amped' category but I'm starting to believe the 'he was amped' category was/is right.


J'onn is a jobber. He was the tools to destroy CM or BA (or most other herald level beings) but the writers love humiliating him. In a forum fight, he breaks either CM or BA in two.

Diana would also ruin CM's or BA's day. Comparable physical stats but MUCH better gear (CM and BA have none). Her lasso is an instant win against anyone in the Marvel family. Lasso their asses, force them to speak the magic word, break their neck. Fin. Even without lasso cheese, Wonder Woman destroyed an AMPED Mary Marvel. If she did that to an amped Mary, I'm sure Billy or Adam would suffer the same fate.

Originally posted by zopzop

Was it? Originally I was in the 'no he wasn't amped' category but I'm starting to believe the 'he was amped' category was/is right.


J'onn is a jobber. He was the tools to destroy CM or BA (or most other herald level beings) but the writers love humiliating him. In a forum fight, he breaks either CM or BA in two.

Diana would also ruin CM's or BA's day. Comparable physical stats but MUCH better gear (CM and BA have none). Her lasso is an instant win against anyone in the Marvel family. Lasso their asses, force them to speak the magic word, break their neck. Fin. Even without lasso cheese, Wonder Woman destroyed an AMPED Mary Marvel. If she did that to an amped Mary, I'm sure Billy or Adam would suffer the same fate.

iirc he wasn't amped. He took back power he'd given to Isis.

I was speaking purely physically, how did you rate them. J'onn, Diana and even Arthur are now all around the same physical level, so I was wondering where you'd put Adam and Billy in that context.

Originally posted by zopzop

Was it? Originally I was in the 'no he wasn't amped' category but I'm starting to believe the 'he was amped' category was/is right.


J'onn is a jobber. He was the tools to destroy CM or BA (or most other herald level beings) but the writers love humiliating him. In a forum fight, he breaks either CM or BA in two.

Diana would also ruin CM's or BA's day. Comparable physical stats but MUCH better gear (CM and BA have none). Her lasso is an instant win against anyone in the Marvel family. Lasso their asses, force them to speak the magic word, break their neck. Fin. Even without lasso cheese, Wonder Woman destroyed an AMPED Mary Marvel. If she did that to an amped Mary, I'm sure Billy or Adam would suffer the same fate.
Mary wasn't amped in Final Crisis. She was powered by Desaad and got stalemated by Supergirl.

Funny thing, Diana has lost twice to Cap and has outright stated that Adam is more powerful than she is.

Cap has stalemated Lobo while weakened, defeated J'onn twice, fought both Kyle and Hal (younger version) at once and got the better of them etc.

No way he is low herald.

Cap vs Hal and Kyle. Mr Mind makes Lanterns believe Cap is an alien in a biosuit and they are trying to rip him apart. Cap is power sharing with Mary.

https://s6.postimg.org/48m5aomlp/p41_10.jpg https://s6.postimg.org/xp6cquict/p41_11.jpg https://s6.postimg.org/7i55uw031/p41_12.jpg https://s6.postimg.org/u84anvjal/p41_13.jpg

Originally posted by -Pr-
iirc he wasn't amped. He took back power he'd given to Isis.

I was speaking purely physically, how did you rate them. J'onn, Diana and even Arthur are now all around the same physical level, so I was wondering where you'd put Adam and Billy in that context.
If he wasn't amped that's a great showing for him. But I'm not so sure.

Physically, CM and BA are slightly above Diana or J'onn or Arthur. In a physical fight, I'd give it to CM or BA after a good tussle. Diana would be the most difficult opponent because of her fighting skills, then Arthur. J'onn isn't known to be some great H2H warrior.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Mary wasn't amped in Final Crisis. She was powered by Desaad and got stalemated by Supergirl.

Funny thing, Diana has lost twice to Cap and has outright stated that Adam is more powerful than she is.

Cap has stalemated Lobo while weakened, defeated J'onn twice, fought both Kyle and Hal (younger version) at once and got the better of them etc.

No way he is low herald.
A) I'd have no problem with standard Mary being Supergirl level. In fact, I think that would be a fair 'tier' for her to be in. DC seems to have sh|t all over her character. Back during the "Formerly known as the Justice League" days a mind controlled Mary stomped a mind controlled Captain Atom into paste. They even said she was one of the most powerful members of that team. Look at her now! You believed she couldn't even get a majority vs Wonder Man in my Mary VS thread on this forum.

B) I never called CM or BA low heralds. I just said they were on the low end of the MID HERALD tier.

Originally posted by zopzop




A) I'd have no problem with standard Mary being Supergirl level. In fact, I think that would be a fair 'tier' for her to be in. DC seems to have sh|t all over her character. Back during the "Formerly known as the Justice League" days a mind controlled Mary stomped a mind controlled Captain Atom into paste. They even said she was one of the most powerful members of that team. Look at her now! You believed she couldn't even get a majority vs Wonder Man in my Mary VS thread on this forum.


That's more a low showing for Cap than it's a good feat for Mary.

Even Matrix Supergirl choked her out. Mary is literally powered by a portion of Cap's power. Her being that low is fitting.

Cap is always that powerful though. He is an original big gun like Superman and that rivalry is a legendary one like Thor vs Hulk.

That's bullshit. No mid herald is running through JSA, oneshotting power girl and laugh off Dr Fate. I wouldn't even give most high herald odds on that.

Originally posted by zopzop
If he wasn't amped that's a great showing for him. But I'm not so sure.

Physically, CM and BA are slightly above Diana or J'onn or Arthur. In a physical fight, I'd give it to CM or BA after a good tussle. Diana would be the most difficult opponent because of her fighting skills, then Arthur. J'onn isn't known to be some great H2H warrior.

About? The quality of the feat? Or the possibility of amping. I'm only giving my best recollection, as it's been a while since I read it.

If they're physically able to beat someone like Diana, would that not, alone, put them in the HH tier?

Considering Adam can oneshot Power Girl.

http://i.imgur.com/iT4Zn0b.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mBrtiTT.jpg

It's highly unlikely that he has only a slight edge in strength to wonder woman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's more a low showing for Cap than it's a good feat for Mary.

Even Matrix Supergirl choked her out. Mary is literally powered by a portion of Cap's power. Her being that low is fitting.

Cap is always that powerful though. He is an original big gun like Superman and that rivalry is a legendary one like Thor vs Hulk.

That's bullshit. No mid herald is running through JSA, oneshotting power girl and laugh off Dr Fate. I wouldn't even give most high herald odds on that.
The JSA/WWIII Hero Mob showing is in question for BA (there's debate on whether he was amped or not). In regards to CM, he was fighting possessed/mind controlled people Abhi. It's not like they were fighting to the best of their abilities.
Originally posted by -Pr-
About? The quality of the feat? Or the possibility of amping. I'm only giving my best recollection, as it's been a while since I read it.
The quality of the feat is stellar. It's the question of whether he was amped or not.


No. It's like Terrax (mid herald) beating Firelord (mid herald). It doesn't make Terrax a high herald.

Ah. Can't say I really agree with your rating, but it's your rating, so fair enough.

Originally posted by zopzop
The JSA/WWIII Hero Mob showing is in question for BA (there's debate on whether he was amped or not).
I'm talking about this Zop.

http://imgur.com/a/FCtNI


Hal and Kyle were not Mind controlled.

I'm not talking about WWIII.

Terrax has never oneshotted Firelord or choked him out with one hand.

https://s6.postimg.org/r2joxo0od/RCO015.jpg

Heck he can oneshot her with a clap while weakened.

http://i.imgur.com/TC86IUl.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm talking about this Zop.

http://imgur.com/a/FCtNI


Hal and Kyle were not Mind controlled.

I'm not talking about WWIII.

Terrax has never oneshotted Firelord or choked him out with one hand.

https://s6.postimg.org/r2joxo0od/RCO015.jpg

Heck he can oneshot her with a clap while weakened.

http://i.imgur.com/TC86IUl.jpg Originally posted by -Pr-
Ah. Can't say I really agree with your rating, but it's your rating, so fair enough.
I was a minor Marvel family fan before DC destroyed that franchise. I actually hope you and PR are right. I also hope DC finally gives that crew some love, especially Mary Marvel.

Even New 52 Adam is HIGH Herald. He KILLED the Circle of Trinity AND Pale Bishop. Trans/low skyfather level beings.

You're simply wrong on this Zop. Dead wrong.

i think it depends on which version is being discussed. preboot adam was def high herald, no question. as was cm who, despite narration, has proven himself at the very LEAST equal to adam, though i've always thought he's more powerful, just nowhere near as ruthless. /shrug

current adam i am FAR from convinced by, same goes for cm. mid heralds at best from what i've seen and frankly, more than a little disappointing. i'm also more than willing to change that stance if i see evidence (not just outliers) that show some consistent portrayals that rival their preboot showings.

abhi is def right about the cm/supes rivalry. it may be viewed (historically at least) as THE great rivalry in comics of all time, given the company histories. as things stand now between supes/cm, i don't see it as much of a rivalry at all though.... which is a little sad.

Black Adam doesn't have any 'space cheese', but in terms of combat proficiency he is high-herald, almost bordering on trans, at least as far as Pre-FP goes.

He's had 1-2 low showings, and the rest are him decapitating Amazo, trashing the JSA repeatedly, laughing off Dr. Fate, treating Power Girl as if she's high-meta etc.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think it depends on which version is being discussed. preboot adam was def high herald, no question. as was cm who, despite narration, has proven himself at the very LEAST equal to adam, though i've always thought he's more powerful, just nowhere near as ruthless. /shrug

current adam i am FAR from convinced by, same goes for cm. mid heralds at best from what i've seen and frankly, more than a little disappointing. i'm also more than willing to change that stance if i see evidence (not just outliers) that show some consistent portrayals that rival their preboot showings.

abhi is def right about the cm/supes rivalry. it may be viewed (historically at least) as THE great rivalry in comics of all time, given the company histories. as things stand now between supes/cm, i don't see it as much of a rivalry at all though.... which is a little sad.

It's post crisis Adam. Meaning the same guy fast enough to keep up with Jay Garrick.

HJ gets blitz raped. No more silly constructs.

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/285/crisis6p2.gif

Adam is not beating current Hal. He is on a different level now.

This is post crisis Hal and BA.

He's basically continuing that trend post Flashpoint, too.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't hate the Marvel family. I hate how people exaggerate their power level. The most powerful of them, CM and BA, are at the low end of Mid Herald at their BEST (no outside amping). Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr are at the low end of High Meta at their BEST. mary marvel beat the shit out of captain atom. Captain atom is high herald. Captain marvel has knocked out superman. Raced flash etc stop it