Rank the Defenders in the following categories...

TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. Strength - LC, JJ, DD, IF
2. Agility - this is tricky. Agility as in who does the craziest sommersaults? DD, IF, JJ, LC. Or agility as in who's the most agile fighter? IF, DD, LC, JJ

3. Combat Skill - DD, IF, LC, JJ
4.Durability - LC, JJ, DD, IF
5. Attack power - IF, LC, JJ, DD

I think you are spot on as pertains to 1, 3, 4, and 5...

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FrothByte

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I think you are spot on as pertains to 1, 3, 4, and 5...

thumb up

I guess I should make 2 a bit more clear; agility/athleticism is the totality of the characters speed (both running and combat), leaping ability, and reflexes...

And I guess this is a bit tricky as Jessica Jones has the greatest pure leaping ability of the bunch, but her combat speed is clearly inferior to that of Daredevil and Iron Fist...

Ok let's focus on #2. Here's the thing. When you watch their respective fight scenes, Danny actually has more complicated fight moves than Daredevil. His moves are harder to pull off yet he still delivers cleaner and more powerful-looking kicks, crisper and snappier punches and arm movements. So in that sense, I would say he's the more agile fighter.

However, Danny does not have any feats that can compare to Daredevil's parkour abilities. When it comes to scaling walls and getting around obstacles, Daredevil clearly is the more agile acrobat.

I guess to sum it up: Danny has more agile kicks, punches, blocks and strikes whereas Matt has more agile acrobatics.

So how do we then decide who's more agile?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok let's focus on #2. Here's the thing. When you watch their respective fight scenes, Danny actually has more complicated fight moves than Daredevil. His moves are harder to pull off yet he still delivers cleaner and more powerful-looking kicks, crisper and snappier punches and arm movements. So in that sense, I would say he's the more agile fighter.

I don't know about this. It varied for me across the different fight scenes, often depending on whether it was the actors or their stunt-doubles doing the moves. There are a couple of fights where Iron Fist still looks pretty awkward when he pulls off various moves, especially when it's Finn Jones himself pulling off a longer sequence.

However, I do agree that his base fighting style is meant to be a more agile and fluid style compared to Matt's. Matt's base is boxing, which he then combines with Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Eskrima and a couple other styles, whereas Danny's base is in Kung Fu, and he uses various forms of it at different points.

Originally posted by FrothByte
However, Danny does not have any feats that can compare to Daredevil's parkour abilities. When it comes to scaling walls and getting around obstacles, Daredevil clearly is the more agile acrobat.

Well, Danny has the one really nice feat of flipping over that taxi. But then Matt has kept up with cars by parkouring halfway across Hell's Kitchen, while suffering from multiple injuries.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I don't know about this. It varied for me across the different fight scenes, often depending on whether it was the actors or their stunt-doubles doing the moves. There are a couple of fights where Iron Fist still looks pretty awkward when he pulls off various moves, especially when it's Finn Jones himself pulling off a longer sequence.

However, I do agree that his base fighting style is meant to be a more agile and fluid style compared to Matt's. Matt's base is boxing, which he then combines with Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Eskrima and a couple other styles, whereas Danny's base is in Kung Fu, and he uses various forms of it at different points.

Well, Danny has the one really nice feat of flipping over that taxi. But then Matt has kept up with cars by parkouring halfway across Hell's Kitchen, while suffering from multiple injuries.

Well obviously we have to compare stunt double vs. stunt double and actor vs. actor.

I've rewatched the fight scenes just now. I'm convinced that Danny's stunt double is a better martial artist than Matt's. You'll notice it mostly in the kicks. Cleaner, faster, more effortless. And surprisingly, I actually found Finn Jones doing his fight scenes better than Charlie Cox. Obviously he's not as good when compared to Cox's stunt double, but those scenes where I see their faces I can appreciate Finn's movements more than Cox's. Such a big improvement from his fight scenes in Ironfist.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well obviously we have to compare stunt double vs. stunt double and actor vs. actor.

I've rewatched the fight scenes just now. I'm convinced that Danny's stunt double is a better martial artist than Matt's. You'll notice it mostly in the kicks. Cleaner, faster, more effortless. And surprisingly, I actually found Finn Jones doing his fight scenes better than Charlie Cox. Obviously he's not as good when compared to Cox's stunt double, but those scenes where I see their faces I can appreciate Finn's movements more than Cox's. Such a big improvement from his fight scenes in Ironfist.

Well, it also seems to vary, with Daredevil, in terms of whether Cox/his stunt double are in and out of costume. They seem to move much more easily in plain clothes than they do in the Daredevil suit. It's something I actually noticed on Daredevil's own show as well. Even though he is implied to be faster, more skilled etc. based on how the fights go in S2 compared to S1, he actually visually looked faster and more agile in S1 than in S2 IMO.

Finn Jones did improve a lot, but there are still some blatantly visible screw ups on his part in a few shots. For example, during the season finale, I remember cringing at the one elbow he threw, which visibly stopped probably a good two inches away from the guy he was supposed to be hitting. No idea how they let that shot into the final cut. Was worthy of the Nolanverse choreography.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, it also seems to vary, with Daredevil, in terms of whether Cox/his stunt double are in and out of costume. They seem to move much more easily in plain clothes than they do in the Daredevil suit. It's something I actually noticed on Daredevil's own show as well. Even though he is implied to be faster, more skilled etc. based on how the fights go in S2 compared to S1, he actually visually looked faster and more agile in S1 than in S2 IMO.

Finn Jones did improve a lot, but there are still some blatantly visible screw ups on his part in a few shots. For example, during the season finale, I remember cringing at the one elbow he threw, which visibly stopped probably a good two inches away from the guy he was supposed to be hitting. No idea how they let that shot into the final cut. Was worthy of the Nolanverse choreography.

I'm not saying he's perfect. Finn Jones ain't no martial artist. Just saying Danny Rand's moves (whether it's him or his stunt double) normally look crisper than Matt's moves (whether it's Cox or his stunt double).

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm not saying he's perfect. Finn Jones ain't no martial artist. Just saying Danny Rand's moves (whether it's him or his stunt double) normally look crisper than Matt's moves (whether it's Cox or his stunt double).

Fair enough. Not sure I agree but it's not really a big deal either. Like I said, Danny's implied to have a more agile fighting style in anyways.

TheVaultDweller

On a random note, in terms of feats of pure athleticism, Jessica Jones can run a sub 4 minute mile. It should be noted that the fastest RL female mile is 4:12.56. And this is despite Jess being such a terrible alcoholic that she steals beers from some homeless guy on the subway.

Also, no category for endurance/stamina? It's not quite the same as durability.

Arachnid1

TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Also, no category for endurance/stamina? It's not quite the same as durability.

I never thought about it; could be a fun topic...

Have we seen enough from them, in terms of stamina, to rank them as pertains that category?

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I never thought about it; could be a fun topic...

Have we seen enough from them, in terms of stamina, to rank them as pertains that category?

I'd put Luke Cage at the bottom of the stamina category. He's only ever gone up against one serious fight against a person of similar abilities (Diamondback) and he was clearly winded at the end of that fight (even though he was exaggerating it a bit).

Daredevil gets first place for his feat of going through a whole hallway of fighters despite being heavily injured.

Jessica Jones gets 2nd place for her fight against Nuke which she accomplished after getting hit by a truck... though in her case it might be more an indication of her healing capabilities and general toughness.

Ironfist is a question mark. I don't recall Danny ever getting winded even after his multiple challenges with the Hand, but I also don't think he's ever been pushed to his limit like the other 3.

TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd put Luke Cage at the bottom of the stamina category. He's only ever gone up against one serious fight against a person of similar abilities (Diamondback) and he was clearly winded at the end of that fight (even though he was exaggerating it a bit).

Daredevil gets first place for his feat of going through a whole hallway of fighters despite being heavily injured.

Jessica Jones gets 2nd place for her fight against Nuke which she accomplished after getting hit by a truck... though in her case it might be more an indication of her healing capabilities and general toughness.

Ironfist is a question mark. I don't recall Danny ever getting winded even after his multiple challenges with the Hand, but I also don't think he's ever been pushed to his limit like the other 3.

Once again, I think you are spot on with your assessment of the Defenders. smile

TheVaultDweller

Disagree about Luke being at the bottom. He was a bit winded at the end of his fight with Diamondback because he let the guy land shot after shot. Those hits, especially a lot of body shots, work on your energy levels. It's specifically a way to tire an opponent out. If you put any of the other 3 Defenders into the same situation, they wouldn't be breathing hard. They'd more than likely be dead. And even if they weren't, I doubt any of them would have enough energy to still be standing on their feet.

Then there is the fact that Luke swam all the way from Seagate to the mainland, a feat that was said to be "impossible" for a normal man. And then there is also that he was still cruising around for a few hours, getting into fights with both Diamondback and the police, after getting shot by Judas bullets. When you are seriously injured or sick, you deplete your energy reserves quicker, as more of it is dedicated to helping your body recover. So, the fact that he could go on for as long as he did despite his injuries is a serious testament to his endurance and stamina.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Disagree about Luke being at the bottom. He was a bit winded at the end of his fight with Diamondback because he let the guy land shot after shot. Those hits, especially a lot of body shots, work on your energy levels. It's specifically a way to tire an opponent out. If you put any of the other 3 Defenders into the same situation, they wouldn't be breathing hard. They'd more than likely be dead. And even if they weren't, I doubt any of them would have enough energy to still be standing on their feet.

Then there is the fact that Luke swam all the way from Seagate to the mainland, a feat that was said to be "impossible" for a normal man. And then there is also that he was still cruising around for a few hours, getting into fights with both Diamondback and the police, after getting shot by Judas bullets. When you are seriously injured or sick, you deplete your energy reserves quicker, as more of it is dedicated to helping your body recover. So, the fact that he could go on for as long as he did despite his injuries is a serious testament to his endurance and stamina.

He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then?

At this stage, Danny. Fact is that we are explicitly told that no normal human could have made the Seagate swim. Luke made it, and wasn't even out of breath when he got to shore. And, again, the only other Defender we've seen remain active as long as Luke for, while suffering from comparable levels of damage, is Daredevil. We've yet to see either Danny or Jess get into fights (and win) while basically being half dead. And I would put Jess above Danny, because she is also explicitly implied to have superhuman stamina and endurance, based on her one conversation with Nuke (where the sub 4 minute mile is also mentioned).

Arachnid1

Originally posted by FrothByte
He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then? Yeah I think I agree with Vault on this. Yeah he got more winded fighting an equal opponent, but stamina should be measured by a fixed standard. For example, I'd imagine they'd be more winded than he trying to push back a 5 ton vehicle.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Yeah I think I agree with Vault on this. Yeah he got more winded fighting an equal opponent, but stamina should be measured by a fixed standard. For example, I'd imagine they'd be more winded than he trying to push back a 5 ton vehicle.

Nah that would directly correlate to strength. Stamina would be asking them to run at full speed continuously and see who drops first.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
At this stage, Danny. Fact is that we are explicitly told that no normal human could have made the Seagate swim. Luke made it, and wasn't even out of breath when he got to shore. And, again, the only other Defender we've seen remain active as long as Luke for, while suffering from comparable levels of damage, is Daredevil. We've yet to see either Danny or Jess get into fights (and win) while basically being half dead. And I would put Jess above Danny, because she is also explicitly implied to have superhuman stamina and endurance, based on her one conversation with Nuke (where the sub 4 minute mile is also mentioned).

So you're putting Danny last despite never seeing him look winded in a fight? Doesn't seem logical to me.

Here's a question. If you made the 4 of them run at top speed continuously, who do you think will drop first?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you're putting Danny last despite never seeing him look winded in a fight? Doesn't seem logical to me.

You're putting Luke last despite him having legitimate feats of superhuman stamina/endurance? Well, that doesn't seem logical to me.

Danny was worn out and battered after getting back from his tournament against Gao's fighters. He was still sitting on Colleen's floor, telling her how tired and hurt he felt.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Here's a question. If you made the 4 of them run at top speed continuously, who do you think will drop first?

At this point, Danny. Daredevil has chased cars across the city before, while injured, without tiring out. Jessica can run a sub 4-minute mile, and ran several blocks across the city in one of her episode, and once even caught up to a car, without tiring out. Luke made a swim that was said to be impossible for a normal man, and managed to remain active for hours after taking multiple serious injuries. What high-end stamina/endurance feats does Danny have that compare? Fights with guys who were, quite frankly, not on his level is not proof. The closest any fighter on IF came to him was Davos, who still got his ass whooped by Danny without the use of chi.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You're putting Luke last despite him having legitimate feats of superhuman stamina/endurance? Well, that doesn't seem logical to me.

Danny was worn out and battered after getting back from his tournament against Gao's fighters. He was still sitting on Colleen's floor, telling her how tired and hurt he felt.

At this point, Danny. Daredevil has chased cars across the city before, while injured, without tiring out. Jessica can run a sub 4-minute mile, and ran several blocks across the city in one of her episode, and once even caught up to a car, without tiring out. Luke made a swim that was said to be impossible for a normal man, and managed to remain active for hours after taking multiple serious injuries. What high-end stamina/endurance feats does Danny have that compare? Fights with guys who were, quite frankly, not on his level is not proof. The closest any fighter on IF came to him was Davos, who still got his ass whooped by Danny without the use of chi.

Because Danny went against multiple high end opponents of similar physical stats to him and was not completely winded. Tired yes but not huffing and puffing like Luke Cage was the one time he went up against an opponent of similar stats to him.

Is the swim feat your only basis for Luke? Because his strength would have played a huge role in that, not simply endurance.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Because Danny went against multiple high end opponents of similar physical stats to him and was not completely winded. Tired yes but not huffing and puffing like Luke Cage was the one time he went up against an opponent of similar stats to him.

What was so great about those guys? Other than supposedly being the best fighters from a single faction of the Hand, they have no notable feats to speak of. The guy who Danny fought on the truck impressed me more than any of them did. Speaking of high end Hand fighters, I could actually see Nobu clearing that same gauntlet with potentially greater ease than Danny did, assuming he gets his standard gear.

It's not as simple as similar stats. Danny's opponents didn't become stronger the more he hit them. Luke had to let himself get hit A LOT, because of how Diamondback's suit worked. Both times Diamondback hit regular humans he oneshot killed them, despite the fact that one of them was wearing body armour under their clothes.

Oh, and also to note, Luke and Diamondback's fight went on for longer than all 3 of Danny's fights combined.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Is the swim feat your only basis for Luke? Because his strength would have played a huge role in that, not simply endurance.

No. It's not. I have already pointed out how he remained active after having bullets made from alien materials explode inside his body, even doing things like smashing over a gallery support pillar and tossing Diamondback probably 30 to 40 feet into another pillar, after he'd taken the first bullet to the gut. If we ignore that, then we might as well throw out the Daredevil hallway fight, because Matt was nearly out of gas halfway through that fight already. That's the whole reason he started getting tagged towards the latter part. He was tiring out.

And Luke did the swimming feat after punching his way through what looked to be about a foot of reinforced concrete prison wall. And this was done right after getting his powers (he'd been nearly dead right before the procedure).