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I feel like this hasn't been done before.

Never thought of this.
RotJ or Knightfall?

Return OTJ

Tenebrous, tbh.

Originally posted by MythLord
Tenebrous, tbh.

.. Controversial

Originally posted by twotter
I feel like this hasn't been done before.
It's probably been done about a thousand times, Ziggy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's probably been done about a thousand times, Ziggy.

Let's do it 1001, thoughts?

Tenebrous wins holisticaly.

Tenebrous snaps his neck.

I see Tene winning narrowly.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Tenebrous wins holistically.

So because Tenebrous is better than Bane and some unknown sith in between, he's better than the broken potential of the Chosen One?

It never ceases to amaze how little you need to actually know about a character to know how powerful they are.

kek

Originally posted by twotter
So because Tenebrous is better than Bane and some unknown sith in between, he's better than the broken potential of the Chosen One?

Likely.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Likely.

Not really likely though is it.

Vader has far more going for him in the quote wars facility, a feats argument, of course would be a joke for Teneb. That would be true if I pitted him against Tott Donetta. But as the biggest authorial intent proponent here yourself, I suppose you'll gladly accept the idea of Vader being 80% post ANH Sidious. Does that not count as enough to be holistically above Tenebrous?

Vader, LMAO.

Originally posted by twotter
But as the biggest authorial intent proponent here yourself,

Since when has that been a thing?



Not necessarily, since we don't have any other characters to use as a reference on that scale other than full potential Anakin, whose power isn't clearly defined. What does "80%" mean, exactly? Where would your average Jedi Master fall? 10%? 20%? 40%? We don't really know.

George did say that Vader was more comparable to Maul or Dooku than to Palpatine after being maimed, though, so it's likely that he considers a 20% difference to be pretty substantial.

Hm, interesting. Vader has more raw power, but Tenebrous has greater esoteric knowledge and a superior mastery of the force. In lighsaber combat, it's hard to tell precisely how Tenebrous would perform with a blade. But several more decades of practice, along with not having to redesign his lightsaber form halfway through his life like Vader did, should at least put Tenebrous in the same ballpark as Vader. And while Vader has more feats in the dueling department, I don't recall any duelists that he has defeated that would really be outside of a late-Banite Master's paygrade. Particularly one whose speciality is lightsaber dueling.

All in all, I'd give it Tenebrous, but Vader could probably win a few rounds.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Since when has that been a thing?

Regarding your stance and authorial intent?

The standing is made pretty clear. You believe what the author has in mind during the conception of a text is the correct and absolute interpretation of an event, and that a separation between the intent of the writer and what's written on paper doesn't exist. I don't necessarily agree, and while my opinion is supported by some modern literary criticism, notably in Wimstatt and Beardsley's "The Intentional Fallacy" and Barthes' Death of the Author essay, we can get into that argument another time.

You are a fan of word of god theory, and if every other Star Wars writer was an arch angel, or a prophet of God, Lucas is the Father almighty.




Actually... yes he is.

The Hypothetical Anakin is meant to be 200% of Palpatine. That's a pretty clear and precise definition, even moreso than the Gillard tiers. The only nebulous factor is which version of Palaptine is being referred to. ROTS Sidious or beyond? Either way, Teneb doesn't really compare.



80% means 80%. You understand basic math right? If I bench 100Kg for 1 rep and you can do 80% of that, how much are you benching? Think of the same but with Telekinesis.



I can't tell you either, but somehow, on that same note, you're fairly certain that Vader was eventually passed in between the ranks of bane and Tenebrous, based on...? not much really. In the case of accolade wars, the best we can say is that neither receive scaling from the other. As Vader is certainly not in the line of banite's predating Tene, and the latter might be close 80% to ROTJ Sidious, although i wouldn't hold my breath on such a stance. Other than that, we have feats for both, which Vader is pretty laughably winning in any comparison.



I mean, I would hope that 19 bby Vader, at his most physiologically compromised point, with a broken body, is more comparable to those two than Sidious. We'd have a true spite thread on our hands then if the opposite were true. But are you going to tell me that he didn't improve from that point upwards until ROTJ, his most powerful point? Because that would be the case if this statement were to have any relevance in this thread.



So now you're speculating the intent behind the authorial intent. Did you have the conversation with Lucas himself on this topic? because that's the only way we're getting a straight answer on the matter of Lucas' thoughts. But 20% is what he said, and that what we have to go from. And as an exact percentage, the difference isn't substantial.

Tenebrous has zero going for him here, yeah.

I feel Vader may wield superior raw power and saber capabilities, but Tene has hax, like really good hax

Red lightning > Blue lightning

Vader gets fried

Originally posted by twotter
Regarding your stance and authorial intent?

The standing is made pretty clear. You believe what the author has in mind during the conception of a text is the correct and absolute interpretation of an event, and that a separation between the intent of the writer and what's written on paper doesn't exist.

You are a fan of word of god theory, and if every other Star Wars writer was an arch angel, or a prophet of God, Lucas is the Father almighty.

Not exactly. The Star Wars expanded universe has been worked on by at least dozens of authors, so you're bound to have incongruent interpretations of various characters and events. Since most of them are operating with equal authority despite that, you really can't deal in true absolutes unless the discussion is isolated to a single work. Generally, I treat these sorts of things as support for certain ideas, particularly if there are recurring trends.

But yes, semantics aside, I do think the intention behind the material matters. Of course, it's up to the fans to take things like contradictions and ever-changing lore into account when trying to come up with a consistent theory, but what point is there in arguing with the author about what a passage he/she wrote actually means? This isn't poetry.



Jesus, you sound like a Dragon Ball fan. Do forgive me if I don't take lines like "Anakin could have been twice as good as the Emperor," and "Vader's maybe 20% worse," as something I should treat like a math problem. Besides, at what point George say he was comparing their ability as telekinetics in that interview? Does Sidious being 20% better than Vader mean he should be able to out-wrestle him, too? Because he sure didn't in RotJ.

How about you explain how to measure what "20% better as a swordsman" means, while you're at it?



I never said there was much to go on. Anyone could tell you that it's entirely guesswork; if you're not into that, you shouldn't have made a thread using a character with five pages of screentime.

If Darth Bane--who's hardly some great distance behind Vader himself--is the progenitor of a lineage of some three dozen Sith, each said to be stronger than the last, cumulating in Vader's definite superior, then I'd think it's not so unlikely that the last members of that lineage were his betters as well. There's not enough information to prove it one way or the other, but the impressive little we have seen of Tenebrous and his fellows hardly discredits the idea.



Of course? Why would I try to speculate the meaning behind various texts, only to take words at face value?



An unsubstantial difference between the abilities of Palpatine and Vader isn't exactly reflected in most of the material.

applying numerical metrics doesn't work in star wars

Am I dreaming?

Is NewGuy actually showing his fangs?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Am I dreaming?

Is NewGuy actually showing his fangs?

Don't be getting your hopes too high, now; I was only clarifying.

Vader tanked Sidious lightning (Vader #1)which left the Lylek queen a smoking husk (their carapace is stronger than Twileki rebel armor), Tenebrous's lightning isn't doing shit

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Don't be getting your hopes too high, now; I was only clarifying.

Awww.
Here I am thinking it was your comeback season.

Originally posted by carthage
Vader tanked Sidious lightning (Vader #1)which left the Lylek queen a smoking husk (their carapace is stronger than Twileki rebel armor), Tenebrous's lightning isn't doing shit

Are we seriously considering this as an all-out Palpatine? I doubt he'd want to kill his apprentice just after he got him. And what even is the Lylek queen's best durability feat to begin with?

Lylek queen is lightsaber-resistant. Palpatine's lightning > lighsaber

Originally posted by MythLord
Are we seriously considering this as an all-out Palpatine? I doubt he'd want to kill his apprentice just after he got him. And what even is the Lylek queen's best durability feat to begin with?

Why would he hold back against him when Sith historically are brutal to their apprentices? He's well aware of Vader's potential dwarfing Maul's or Dooku's and in subsquent issues sends him to prove his worth as a Sith in getting a lightsaber. He has no compunction about being brutal on Vader to prove his worth, its a great feat for Vader regardless of how you spin it.

Originally posted by carthage
Why would he hold back against him when Sith historically are brutal to their apprentices? He's well aware of Vader's potential dwarfing Maul's or Dooku's and in subsquent issues sends him to prove his worth as a Sith in getting a lightsaber. He has no compunction about being brutal on Vader to prove his worth, its a great feat for Vader regardless of how you spin it.

That's all well and good, but hardly addresses my point: what makes you think Palpatine's lightning in this instance was lethal? Sure, he might've wanted to torture Vader and he succeeded in bringing him down to his knees, but the lightning is obviously not nearly the same intensity as what he unleashed against the Lylek queen.

Originally posted by MythLord
That's all well and good, but hardly addresses my point: what makes you think Palpatine's lightning in this instance was lethal? Sure, he might've wanted to torture Vader and he succeeded in bringing him down to his knees, but the lightning is obviously not nearly the same intensity as what he unleashed against the Lylek queen.

I'll take your word when you offer proof that he wasn't seriously trying to down Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not exactly.

Not exactly what?

That you're an authorial intent proponent... or that Lucas, as far as Legends go, was the primera authority on all Star Wars content up until the rights were sold to Disney. Because both are true. For the former I can find statements made no longer than 3 days ago. For the latter, well you'll have to look at the old holocron tier system for Legends, and see how valued Lucas' personal statements are within that hierarchy.



Blah blah blah blah. If you were denying authorial intent theory then this little anecdote might be relevant as it's one of the biggest counterarguments to it. This is especially true for Star Wars content. But seen as you've made your thoughts clear you'll have to begrudgingly accept the spoken word from the originator of Star Wars and the thoughts of his own creation, Darth Vader.



Well as far as "canon" goes, none of them have any authority. The authority they have has to be written in whatever publication they're making at the time of it's conception. This rule of course, doesn't apply to Lucas, who's own statements are automatically "G-canon", and it's rather unfortunate for you that this is the only guy I'm quoting.



I appreciate the backtracking but that's not what you said. You said the author knows the correct interpretation of his work. We can argue wether that's true or not another time, but it is what you said, going as far to defend Tom Vietch's controversial viewpoint on Palpatine vs Kun as a 'statement of it's time'. Even though by feats, it was clearly a false statement of it's time.



Bingo. Why are we arguing this further?



Well, sorry, but it kind of is a maths problem... and not a very hard one at that. Vader is 80% the power of Sidious. If Sidious can TK a 100 tons, then following this statment of canon, Vader can TK 80. If you'd like to deny the nature of this statement despite it's canonicity for whatever reason, I might as well deny the articles claiming that the Rule of 2 is a linear progression. In which case, Tene has precisely jack shit to his name other then a failed Maxi-Chlorian project and the inability to quell a mass of energy ala Tott Doneeta.



I never said he did. But he did so inadvertently as TK is merely an expression of raw power.





Can you point out the wrestling match that happened in ROTJ between the two?

Because from what I can see, Vader ussupectlingly picked his much smaller and lighter master up from behind, by the armpits and held him at arms length to throw him into a pit. Now, as a KMC Frequenter, I don't expect fighting, or physical activity of any sort is your strong suit. But you might at least know a bit a the human anatomy. So please tell me, what wrestling moves are available to Palpatine in such a position?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/5888284-vader+feat+durability+%283%29.gif

Considering one's shoulder and elbow joints only allow your arms to move in a certain direction, he can't effectively hit someone who's behind him. This is made worse considering that Vader is literally about a foot taller than the Emperor. Giving him a massive reach advantage. Which yes, does mean that Palpatine is helpless here. The 20% power differnce doesn't really hinder Vader from picking up a man who weighs 70 kilos. Unless you want to tell me that Super-Weight is a Force power now?

I'm really not sure what idea you were trying to convey with this non point. You originally mused that a 20% power difference is a rather substantial one, only to then say that the difference couldn't be seen in a non existent wrestling match between the two. So what exactly was the point here? That you don't think before you type or that your IQ is lower than 100? The funniest part of all of this, is that the specific scene from ROTJ, demonstrates exactly what one would expect if Vader truly and accurately had 80% of Palpatine's power. His Force lightning wasn't able to stop Vader or slow him down and only killed him by disabling his life support. And any TK attempt, either failed or couldn't happen in the first instance. Probably because Vader is too close to Sids in power



Not really.

Sorry to say that every thing we know about Teneb makes him out to be lolworthy compared to his two successors and the same could probably be said for every banite Sith lord before him.

When you include machinations of Sidious and plagueis, their individual power growth at various points, which includes the unbalancing of the Force, Sidious' own massive Force unbalancing after hego's death and other events such as the draining of Byss' 20 billion popluce , you'd probably have a rather substantial increase of power (at least greater than 20%) between pre TPM Sids and Sidious as of ROTJ. For Teneb to be stronger than Vader, you have to deny that is the case.

And you're Correct, ROTJ sids is Vader's definite superior, he's also the definite superior of Tenebrous. The differnce is that he surpassed the latter much, much earlier in his life (before TPM), as did his weaker predecessor, Plagueis. The same is not necessarily true in regards to Vader. It might be, but the case is unconfirmed. And Vader is still better than Teneb by miles when you compare feats.




The little we've seen of Tenebrous practically guarantee's that Vader's offensive Force output is more than the former can handle. And i just love how you're trying to group him in with his 'fellows' despite the two sith after him being vastly more successful in every convincible way than Tenebrous. Knowing that on his own merit, he has nothing.



Does that include the non-existent wrestling match you brought up where Vader got the better of him :roll eyes:. The only other thing that you can argue is that his feats are better, which is a ludicrous notion in regards to someone arguing for Tenebrous.

Originally posted by carthage
I'll take your word when you offer proof that he wasn't seriously trying to down Vader.

Why would he try to kill his newest apprentice? LMFAO.

Once again, common sense escapes you.

Originally posted by MythLord
Why would he try to kill his newest apprentice? LMFAO.

Once again, common sense escapes you.

I guess I missed the spot where if a Sith apprentice dies he was unworthy, but if he survives he's worthy of his spot. Its not like he was the chosen one or something, lel. Fail point is fail.

Originally posted by carthage
I guess I missed the spot where if a Sith apprentice dies he was unworthy, but if he survives he's worthy of his spot. Its not like he was the chosen one or something, lel. Fail point is fail.

So your argument is just "He's the Chosen One"? Which basically means it's PIS? Good to see you've come to your senses.

Also, you do realize their dialogue before and after said lightning zapping notes Vader wants to live and Palpatine doesn't want to kill him, right?

Tenebrous is still featless....

No he isn't, lol. He has feats and scaling, which should put him above Vader, tbh.

Originally posted by HitTheAssasin
Tenebrous is still featless....

No he isn't.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
No he isn't.

Yes, he is.
Well, almost.
He was faster than a massively pre-prime Plagueis(who is, surprise, also almost featless) and could hold up a few rocks with the force.
He does get scaling though.

Originally posted by MythLord
No he isn't, lol. He has feats and scaling, which should put him above Vader, tbh.
Scaling could put him above Vader, yes.
But he has little to no actual feats.

He has several feats. Also I like how you forgot to mention just how large those rocks were, the circumstances of holding them up and him blocking a multi-city-block level explosion with a casual Force bubble in the process of holding them up.

Originally posted by HitTheAssasin
Yes, he is.
Well, almost.
He was faster than a massively pre-prime Plagueis(who is, surprise, also almost featless) and could hold up a few rocks with the force.
He does get scaling though.

He was faster than a Plagueis who deflected omnidirectional blasterfire and was already much faster than guys like Bane whose speed feats are impressive.

He held up lots of rocks that individually (yes, individually) threatened to crush his ship. It was a personal starship, and it was a Sith ship, so it was what? 20 meters long, maybe? Maul's Sith ship was 26 meters long so another Sith ship should be somewhat comparable to it. Lifting lots of 20 meter long rocks without that much effort and stopping an explosion that collapsed a cathedral sized mine are very impressive feats. Tenebrous being featless is outright false.

Tenebrous has one of the best feats in the mythos, for ****'s sake. This ignorance of thinking he has only contained an explosion and held up rocks is getting really annoying.

Granted, I don't think Tenebrous wins this, but Ziggy, you are severely underestimating him here. You should read this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t639946.html

HIT THE ASSASIN IS ZIGGY?

no, lol

Twotter is.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
HIT THE ASSASIN IS ZIGGY?

Not at all.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
HIT THE ASSASIN IS ZIGGY?

@HitTheAssasin: Mother****er is you Tyrone?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
@HitTheAssasin: Mother****er is you Tyrone?
who?
LMAO.

Originally posted by HitTheAssasin
who?
LMAO.

https://youtu.be/3n152vW4Ifg?t=19