Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Alright, now let's look at the proof that I actually used:
1. Despite seeing a suppressed Toppo get beat down by SSJB, Daishinkan was uncertain of who was going to win the fight, despite Goku powering up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.
2. Toppo, despite facing SSJB and having his butt handed to him, was unsure whether or not he'd be able to beat Goku in the tournament, despite seeing Goku power up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.
3. Despite seeing Toppo get beaten down by SSJB, Beerus notes that Goku had a "close fight" with Toppo, despite Goku beginning to power up even further into Kaioken. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.
4. Vermod, despite seeing SSJB Goku beat down Toppo, still has to ask Toppo whether or not he thinks be can take down Goku, despite Goku powering even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.
5. Goku, as he's powering up into Kaioken, asks Toppo to show him his "real" power. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.
6. This is a new piece of evidence: It's heavily implied that Toppo is beyond Dyspo, who was beating around SSJG Goku and moving too fast for him to react, and even managed to dodge SSJB despite being caught off-guard. Also bodied Hit until Hit adapted to Dyspo's speed.
7. Another new piece of evidence: The narrator himself states that neither Toppo nor Goku "would give an inch in their match." This implies that they are/were equals.
The idea that not only all of these characters were wrong, but actually so wrong that Toppo's full power is completely beneath regular SSJB Goku, seems like an enormous leap in logic. I don't even need to prove that Toppo is on par with, say, SSJB KKx10 Goku, I just need to prove there's enough evidence that at least heavily suggests Toppo is beyond regular SSJB.
Again, this begs the question: Why the hell would there be speculation if regular SSJB Goku is capable of defeating full-powered Toppo. Why would Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, Goku, and Vermod be uncertain of Goku's victory if regular SSJB Goku is > Toppo, much less the immensely powered up KKx10 (or even x20) version? The answer to me is pretty clear: Toppo was only starting to get serious when SSJB Goku ****ed up his outfit. This is supported by Toppo twice, Goku, Daishinkan, Beerus, and Vermod.
That's fair, but in your very first post in this thread, you state the following:
This implies that Toppo getting his butt kicked is relevant regarding his inferiority to Frieza. It isn't.
Look, I consider you to be one of the sharper members around these parts, and I tend to agree with you on most things. But really? I'm reeling? 6 or 7 different pieces of evidence is a flimsy basis? And yes, even if you disagree on the events of the fight itself, there's at least 6 different statements that heavily imply Toppo is at least close to Goku. That wouldn't be the case if regular SSJB Goku was capable of housing him.
Sure, Goku has alot of variability, but you don't have 6 different statements saying "Krillin is on par with SSJB! Android 17 is on par with SSJB! Kale is far beyond SSJB!"
And, here's the thing: Even if Goku's tank is deeper, (i.e. if Goku's KK x10 and KKx20 are beyond Toppo's immense powerup), that doesn't matter in terms of Frieza. Because Frieza at best is on par with regular SSJB Goku.
1. Easily dismissed as plot. Toppo has no showings to even imply that he's on the level of being able to multiply his power by a factor of 10 to match Goku. Why on Earth would be he holding back immensely against a person who he despised? Even blamed for the whole situation (somewhat rightly so, but that's besides the point). Did he have another level he could kick it up to? Of course, as most characters do. But he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt to such an extent because Grand Priest, regardless of his status, showed interest in the fight.
2. How is that proof? Unless Goku immediately went to 100% pushing Kaioken x10, Toppo had no basis to even believe that. He was going to get his butt kicked.
3. Not necessarily. He had a close fight, because he was having a close fight. Until Goku put on the power, Toppo was beating the crap out of Goku. Almost tore off an arm, that's just as well a reason for why Beerus said that.
4. See, how does that imply ANYTHING? He's gathering his fighters feelings on a match, which he shouldn't need to do were he aware of their levels.
5. That implies he wasn't giving 100% as does every character in the history of dragon ball at the beginning of a fight. The extent to which that matters remains to be seen.
6. I don't understand the connection. Dyspo is fast, that's his schtick. He was so fast he made fast guys seem slow. Yet despite that, both Goku and Hit got the better of him. Goku, in a weaker form no less.
7. That implies they were having a competitive fight.
None of that necessarily heavily suggests anything of the sort, regardless of how many times you bold it. It could just as easily mean that Toppo was enough of a challenge that Goku felt he could experiment with higher power.
And that's not an argument that I ever made, strawmen should be beneath you. What I'm saying is that character statements while impressive and all, do not make up for the large gap of power you are trying to push onto Toppo to match Kaioken Goku. Even one Kaioken doubles Goku's power, how does the crew being like "dang I wonder who's gonna win", mean he gets the benefit of the doubt in such absurd levels of power?
And you know what, if they have to ask, they don't know the fighters that well either. It doesn't mean "oh well since they're questioning it, it must mean they're equals" and you're talking about leaps in logic lol. To reach a conclusion along those lines you'd at the least need someone of reputable characters saying something akin to "their strength is equal, even considering both are holding back" Similar to what Frieza said when he violated holding back Goku with 50% of his power.
They didn't need statements, they had showings, which overrule statements no matter how illustrious they might be. Martian Manhunter is not as strong as Superman no matter how sure of it he is. And who knows MMH better than himself?
And yes, I do with you as well
But our disagreement seems to be stemming from two major points:
1. You said that me saying Frieza beats Toppo because he did better against SSJB Goku is not indicative of how a fight between the two would go.
And I understand your point and admit that that alone is not enough to prove that Frieza beats him, but Frieza has other ways to end the match. He's a ruthless and sadistic animal with a finger gun capable of poking holes in similarly powered opponents.
2. I do not agree that just because the show in its typical manner expresses the shocked reactions of the ringside fighters, that that means that Toppo can be considered as powerful as you consider him. He was indeed restraining some of his power, but how much do you honestly think he restrained against someone he despises? And wanted to beat down decisively? Not as much as you'd like to be so.
Does Toppo beat Frieza? I don't think he does. Could be he beat Frieza? Sure. Just not more than vice versa based on what I've seen of him.