Malak > Kun Quote - Confirmed (Death of Beni?)

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DarthAnt66
http://i.imgur.com/am6Mitv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X1ygJzZ.jpg

Credit to DarthSkywalker0 for the exchange.

Anywho, he does confirm it is Legends.

Curiously, he also notes he no longer considers Malak above Kun, but I question the relevance of his opinion once the blog was posted since he has no continued relation with the characters.

Regardless, as someone who doesn't take quotes as absolute, I take this as proof that Malak wouldn't be stomped by Kun by any means, and could perhaps contend with him in battle.

DarthSkywalker0
I take back my previous comments on this narrative.

Azronger
Yup. Malak > Kun is official.

DarthSkywalker0
Revan is raised immensely.

UCanShootMyNova
Huh. Guess that confirms for me that nexuses have a multiplicative effect. Revan really is around Vitiate's level without external circumstances. I'd also say that's heavy indication that SoR Revan's spirit being split did in fact weaken him.

Alright, GG. Revan is Galen level now. Good for him.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Curiously, he also notes he no longer considers Malak above Kun, but I question the relevance of his opinion once the blog was posted since he has no continued relation with the characters.

Que? He literally says he'd still side with Malak.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
Que? He literally says he'd still side with Malak.

Somehow I read him say, "I'd side with Kun."

LMFAO.

Damn, this is even better. thumb up

Ursumeles
The title is implying Beni was still alive.
0/10 thread

FreshestSlice
LMAO at raising Malak when we really should just lower Kun. His wank was unreal.

Beniboybling
"At the time."

Welp, I was in the process of preparing a response but it looks like the author's made my life easier. Guess you can keep your dollars DC. sad

Now here is the article in question "at the time":

http://web.archive.org/web/20090603071915/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Here is the official campaign guide entry released 5 years later:

https://i.imgur.com/Z30uH1d.png

https://i.imgur.com/KCi5U92.png

Note, no mention of his superiority over Nadd & Exar, and instead of possessing powers "out of proportion" his stats are not only beneath Kun's but almost the lowest of the bunch. laughing out loud

I guess that's what you'd call a retcon. :'(

ChocolateMuesli
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
LMAO at raising Malak when we really should just lower Kun. His wank was unreal.

Unbowed
So taking into account Tom Veitch's statements that makes Revan>Malak>Kun>DE Sidious.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"At the time."

Welp, I was in the process of preparing a response but it looks like the author's made my life easier. Guess you can keep your dollars DC. sad

Now here is the article in question "at the time":

http://web.archive.org/web/20090603071915/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Here is the official campaign guide entry released 5 years later:

https://i.imgur.com/Z30uH1d.png

https://i.imgur.com/KCi5U92.png

Note, no mention of his superiority over Nadd & Exar, and instead of possessing powers "out of proportion" his stats are not only beneath Kun's but almost the lowest of the bunch. laughing out loud

I guess that's what you'd call a retcon. :'(

Cory's comment about "at the time" means that it was official canon (i.e. part of the classic Expanded Universe) back then, but is now classified as Legends due to Disney's purge, as he clarifies in his following sentence.

The other quotes you brought up here do not contradict the notion of Malak > Kun. Omission is not a contradiction. There is no retcon.

Azronger
Originally posted by Unbowed
So taking into account Tom Veitch's statements that makes Revan>Malak>Kun>DE Sidious.

Well, yes, but no reason to take those into account.

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
LMAO at raising Malak when we really should just lower Kun. His wank was unreal.

Kun > Post Nathema Vitiate. :>

Beniboybling
@Az, the article predates KOTORCG anyway so that's irrelevant, which drastically revised his standing in the game to reflect is (lack of) "disproportionate" powers - a retcon yeah. Malak sucks. sad

Selenial
Jesus, Beni taking so many L's he's falling back on campaign guide stats.

This is kinda sad to watch erm

Geistalt
It's perfect.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Selenial
falling back on campaign guide stats.

Far be it for me to take up for Beni of all people, but didn't Leland Chee state RPG stats are based on facts, and that Star Wars authors look to them for knowledge on characters?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Az, the article predates KOTORCG anyway so that's irrelevant, which drastically revised his standing in the game to reflect is (lack of) "disproportionate" powers - a retcon yeah. Malak sucks. sad
Nope. KotORCG stats is based on the 2007's Saga Edition. This is based on the 2000's version.

Your argument believes the following sources are non-canon by virtue of retcon:

- Tales of the Jedi Companion
- Dark Empire Sourcebook
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
- The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Since they are sourcebooks that have stats that don't remotely reflect those posted in the Saga Edition.

So, in short, the fact stats change doesn't mean the character descriptions are void, nor does it mean the earlier stats are null.

DarthAnt66
(I have another post on the last page.)

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Far be it for me to take up for Beni of all people, but didn't Leland Chee state RPG stats are based on facts, and that Star Wars authors look to them for knowledge on characters?

There's no issue. The difference in stats is due to system differences across RPGs , not due to retcons.

Dry those tears, Beni. :'(

Deronn_solo
Beni's career is over, I guess.

R.I.P.

DarthAnt66
Also, those stats would presumably reflect non-amped Malak. The quote putting Malak >> Kun is him with the Star Forge.

There's not even a contention of anything, lmfao.

TheMuser
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, those stats would presumably reflect non-amped Malak. The quote putting Malak >> Kun is him with the Star Forge.

There's not even a contention of anything, lmfao.

The quote isn't specific about it being the SF that put him way beyond Kun. You could argue Base Malak>>>Kun in Power......This is disgusting.

twotter
Beni got destroyed. Imo Kun is still >>> SFMalak, regardless of quotes.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TheMuser
The quote isn't specific about it being the SF that put him way beyond Kun. You could argue Base Malak>>>Kun in Power......This is disgusting.

Well, I mean, that's the obvious implication, although if you want to put base Malak >>> Kun, be my guest.

Rockydonovang
I thought quotes were disputable ant?

Anyway this is nice for mace hype, since he scales of Revan Reborn smile

Though I seriously wouldn't take this seriously

It's kind of pathetic how long it took you to finally give Beni an L though, given your obsession with him and all sad

UCanShootMyNova
Ant's not even advocating its' validity. He's just saying that as subjective evidence it's indicative to him that Malak isn't far off from Kun.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I thought quotes were disputable ant?

Hence why I don't have Revan on par with Yoda right about now.

Your precedent to dispute this particular quote though is next to non-existent, though.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJO3ROT-A4E&t=0m10s

Well, actually, we all know what for. thumb up



Seriously seriously? Or just seriously? mmm



Regretfully I didn't have the author in my closet so I could just pull him out and get this confirmation from him nigh-instantly.

Not that Beni had any legitimate case once I mentioned Oricon, which was within a few hours of the debate opener.

Seems you have an obsession with me, regardless. This entire post was ranting to me about X, Y, and Z.

Anywho, it's OK to be wrong - unless you're Bantha's parents (as the saying goes). thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by twotter
Beni got destroyed. Imo Kun is still >>> SFMalak, regardless of quotes.

Why, if I may ask?

NewGuy01
Because Malak's a massive loser.

Azronger
sad

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Hence why I don't have Revan on par with Yoda right about now.

Yoda gets scaling as an equal off a dude who scales of valk, sith or no sith and has better feats/hype, but I commend you for your common sense.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your precedent to dispute this particular quote though is next to non-existent, though.

You mean aside from Kun having vastly more impressive feats and scaling? Or the source generally suggesting asinine sh!t.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJO3ROT-A4E&t=0m10s

Well, actually, we all know what for. thumb up



-> Tries to call someone insecure
-> Exposes one-direction fandom
-> laughing
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Seriously seriously? Or just seriously? mmm



Do you seriously question that I am seriously using the word seriously in a serious manner? sad
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Regretfully I didn't have the author in my closet so I could just pull him out and get this confirmation from him nigh-instantly.

And yet you felt the need to deny something nobody accused you off. Hiding something Ant? sad
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not that Beni had any legitimate case once I mentioned Oricon, which was within a few hours of the debate opener.

I was referring to all of the efforts the tor brigade has made to force beni to take an l during my time here. Congrats on getting a w btw, even if you needed to ask an author to bail you out wink
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Seems you have an obsession with me, regardless. This entire post was ranting to me about X, Y, and Z.

Don't flatter yourself ant, I'm talkin to you for kicks
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anywho, it's OK to be wrong - unless you're Bantha's parents (as the saying goes). thumb up
I never actually argued Beni's position either way. I'm just teasing you for personal amusement. Feel free to muster something approaching a comeback if you wish. This banter is boring me now.

DarthAnt66
https://media.tenor.com/images/0db218ea7e0cc2366738fa1c7a094761/tenor.gif

Jesus Christ.

What I just read was the equivalent of an angry autistic kid doing a Beni impression.

Or, well, Autism the Younger doing an impression of Autism the Elder.

EDIT: Wait, what the **** is a "->"?

ThirdReich
Malak sucks ass. This quote is trash

lazybones
Seems like most who are dismissing the quote are doing so based on emotional biases and fallacious reasoning rather than any canonical proof of a retcon. That said, no quote should be seen as absolute gospel, but it should be weighted into rankings at least.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope. KotORCG stats is based on the 2007's Saga Edition. This is based on the 2000's version.

Your argument believes the following sources are non-canon by virtue of retcon:

- Tales of the Jedi Companion
- Dark Empire Sourcebook
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
- The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Since they are sourcebooks that have stats that don't remotely reflect those posted in the Saga Edition.

So, in short, the fact stats change doesn't mean the character descriptions are void, nor does it mean the earlier stats are null. confused

The stats given by the WotC article reflected the material in the description, namely:The updated edition doesn't include this power, nor the "out of proportion" statistic, evidently because this mysterious power didn't provide him with such a drastic amp. Not had to grasp, it's a retcon. sad

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
confused

The stats given by the WotC article reflected the material in the description, namely: The updated edition doesn't include this power, nor the "out of proportion" statistic, evidently because this mysterious power didn't provide him with such a drastic amp. Not had to grasp, it's a retcon. sad

https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif

The "updated edition doesn't include this power" because the updated edition isn't Star Forge amped!Darth Malak.

You've taken so many Ls today it's hard for me to fathom why you'd still want to take more.

Beniboybling
Sorry? Neither of the sources state whether it's SF Malak or not kek, and as an RPG, the setting is decided by the player. confused

DarthAnt66
I'm having trouble believing that you are actually arguing what you're arguing.

Darth Malak's Wizard of the Coast article is referring to him with the Star Forge boost.

How do we know? Because it has an entire paragraph dedicated to the amp and the boost Malak gets with it:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

KotORCG, on the other hand, decides not to have Star Forge Malak as a potential character - they completely avoid it.

All the characters within the Saga Edition do not feature amps. If you would play Malak on the Star Forge in Saga Edition, you would forgo the amp or cross-reference the amp from WotC into Saga Edition.

You are arguing, somehow, that since KotORCG does not have a paragraph likewise giving conditions for the Star Forge nexus, that not only does that mean no such amp exists, not only that separate roleplaying games are retconed, but canonical character descriptions that are separate from the roleplaying statistics are likewise retconed.

There's no way you believe what you're saying. There's no way.

--- --- ---

https://media.tenor.com/images/f380550c6c2bbe19866a290c1710b3d8/tenor.gif

I'm glad this gif is on repeat because otherwise it wouldn't reflect your current situation.

ChaosTheory123
Still alive and having fun I take it kiddo? :hmm

Apparently you're gathering an audience

Been like 9 months since I bothered to check up on this fandom, but the hell happened to that Caedus respect thread?

DarthAnt66
Coming out... Christmas 2017. wink

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm having trouble believing that you are actually arguing what you're arguing.

Darth Malak's Wizard of the Coast article is referring to him with the Star Forge boost.

How do we know? Because it has an entire paragraph dedicated to the amp and the boost Malak gets with it:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

KotORCG, on the other hand, decides not to have Star Forge Malak as a potential character - they completely avoid it.

All the characters within the Saga Edition do not feature amps. If you would play Malak on the Star Forge in Saga Edition, you would forgo the amp or cross-reference the amp from WotC into Saga Edition.

You are arguing, somehow, that since KotORCG does not have a paragraph likewise giving conditions for the Star Forge nexus, that not only does that mean no such amp exists, not only that separate roleplaying games are retconed, but canonical character descriptions that are separate from the roleplaying statistics are likewise retconed.

There's no way you believe what you're saying. There's no way.

--- --- ---

https://media.tenor.com/images/f380550c6c2bbe19866a290c1710b3d8/tenor.gif

I'm glad this gif is on repeat because otherwise it wouldn't reflect your current situation. Oh jeebus. Seems your fake victory has gone to your head Tony and impaired your ability to read. laughing out loud

Try giving it another go, bearing in mind this time, that nowhere does it state in that paragraph that his "enhancement" is specific to his presence on the Star Forge. Instead it says, categorically, that "Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in his game terms, with his class and level." I assume you know what the word categorically means yes?

In other words it's not amp, it's a permanent enhancement, so the fact that it doesn't appear in the KOTORCG, means it doesn't exist. sad

Now I'm off to bed, in the morning I expect to find a more intelligent response. sick

DarthAnt66
Somehow you forgot the line directly in front of that, which states, "Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered."

"Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered."

Meaning that, no, it's not a permanent enhancement - it's a power source that, when used, provides an enhancement.

Ah, it also states that, to find out this power source, we have to play Knights of the Old Republic.

Now, let's all sit around the camp-fire and consider what on Earth could that "mysterious power source" be.

http://pa1.narvii.com/6161/e33c0016880ee169bcc6afba1a4e596f63c23419_hq.gif

Oh, wait, the Star Forge, which Knights of the Old Republic reveals to give Malak an amp! Right!

Take the ****ing L dude. Your refusal to concede is truly pathetic.

UCanShootMyNova
Beni. Do yourself a favor and stop responding.

DarthAnt66
thumb up

A retarded quote has just become fully canonized thanks to Beni.

Beniboybling
It's almost as if the Star Forge did more than empower Malak when he was on it, and was making him permanently stronger. confused

You guys crack me up. sad

Deronn_solo
Honestly Beni, the mark of a great debater is one that can concede when a point he/she was arguing for was debunked.

Your original point was trashed when evidence came out that WotC articles was totally legit, and you moved the goal post again to say it's a retcon - that too, was refuted.

Get over it my nigga.

DarthAnt66
This is exciting, since I think this will have to be your final argument before check-mate.

At the moment you're just creating new arguments for them to be dismissed, like a king trying to avoid check.

--- --- ---

Malak was explicit, across multiple lines of dialogue, that the bulk of his amp was only when present on the Star Forge.

For example: "You made a mistake coming here, Revan. The Star Forge fuels my command of the dark side. You are no match for me here."

Thus, even if Malak was permanently amped, which is an unconfirmed stance, mind you, the majority of his enhancement would be on-nexus.

Thus, the Malak that is "far more powerful" than Kun, indeed, is amped, not with a permanent enhancement of such scale. thumb up

--- --- ---

Now, here's the great part: even if it was a permanent enhancement, that would just mean he's far more powerful than Kun off-nexus too.

The only argument you would have for KotORCG stats retconing it would then be to fully accept the base stats as canonical, which you certainly won't do.

Why? Because then Darth Malak vs Darth Sidious, Bastila Shan vs Dooku, and similiar garbage is a legitimate debate (for you). thumb up

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Beni. Do yourself a favor and stop responding.
Ant's wrecking tbh thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The only argument you would have for KotORCG stats retconing it would then be to fully accept the base stats as canonical, which you certainly won't do.

Why? Because then Darth Malak vs Darth Sidious, Bastila Shan vs Dooku, and similiar garbage is a legitimate debate (for you). thumb up

Nail in the coffin.

DarthAnt66
Beni's next thread: Darth Traya and Darth Malak vs Darth Sidious and Yoda.

Poster: Sidious, easily. For example, Sidious has greater strength feats so-

Beni: Wrong. KotORCG retconed that by having Malak > Sidious in physical strength.

I'm almost sad I'm right. I would love this alternate reality where Beni is. thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Risk game Ant?

DarthAnt66
I would, but I really need to finish Never Let Me Go for school.

Once summer work dies down, I promise I'll play. thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
:mmmm:

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This is exciting, since I think this will have to be your final argument before check-mate.

At the moment you're just creating new arguments for them to be dismissed, like a king trying to avoid check.https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iy9g9pvspPyJIju/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/KrTzeQI0mq4P6/giphy.gif

Your stupidity is becoming legitimately tiresome.

Malak says repeatedly that on the Star Forge he is at his strongest and nothing more. Nowhere does he ever claim to be powerless when not on it. In fact, the Rakata state that Malak is getting stronger and stronger by siphoning it's energies. Which wouldn't be the case if the SF were just a temporary amp, and even if it somehow was, given the amp would only function in one particular location, Malak might as the well be impotent.

I thought that would be bloody obvious. But evidently not. no expression

Needless to say though this isn't even an argument. Because the article is, once again, categorical in describing the enhancement. Whereas by your reading it should say:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak was able to possess extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion.

But it doesn't. Does it? sad

No I do not you loopy primate. laughing out loud

Here darling, let me explain the argument very clearly:

1. The original article says that Malak had "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd".
2. To reflect this Malak was given "out of proportion" ingame stats & abilities
3. Had 1. still been the case come 2008, the aforementioned stats would have remained disproportionate, but they didn't, so evidently, it isn't.

The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character. By no means does that make them or any other statistics accurate summations of the characters power in and of themselves. Try harder.

P.S. To KMC's Most Saltiest (u know who u are sad )

The point will be conceded when Ant can muster a refutation that doesn't reflect the intellectual capacity of my last bowel movement, or rather, your debating standard.

So in other words, get comfortable. sick

twotter
Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Iy9g9pvspPyJIju/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/KrTzeQI0mq4P6/giphy.gif

Your stupidity is becoming legitimately tiresome.

Malak says repeatedly that on the Star Forge he is at his strongest and nothing more. Nowhere does he ever claim to be powerless when not on it. In fact, the Rakata state that Malak is getting stronger and stronger by siphoning it's energies. Which wouldn't be the case if the SF were just a temporary amp, and even if it somehow was, given the amp would only function in one particular location, Malak might as the well be impotent.

I thought that would be bloody obvious. But evidently not. no expression

Needless to say though this isn't even an argument. Because the article is, once again, categorical in describing the enhancement. Whereas by your reading it should say:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak was able to possess extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion.

But it doesn't. Does it? sad

No I do not you loopy primate. laughing out loud

Here darling, let me explain the argument very clearly:

1. The original article says that Malak had "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd".
2. To reflect this Malak was given "out of proportion" ingame stats & abilities
3. Had 1. still been the case come 2008, the aforementioned stats would have remained disproportionate, but they didn't, so evidently, it isn't.

The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character. By no means does that make them or any other statistics accurate summations of the characters power in and of themselves. Try harder.

P.S. To KMC's Most Saltiest (u know who u are sad )

The point will be conceded when Ant can muster a refutation that doesn't reflect the intellectual capacity of my last bowel movement, or rather, your debating standard.

So in other words, get comfortable. sick

https://i.imgur.com/WTDnnwE.gif

Beniboybling
When's ur ban. sad

ThirdReich
*Sigh* And so the era of Malak wank begins... who ever thought that Beni would be the voice of reason on KMC :/

Beniboybling
Tell em Reichy. sad

ChocolateMuesli
Why is Beni calling other people 'primates' when he's the black homosexual one here?

Beniboybling
Ur profile pic resembles that of a fat rapist Muesli, i wouldn't be opening my mouth at all. sad

ChocolateMuesli
Yes, give in to your anger, then fetch me some cotton.

Beniboybling
Damn, doesn't even deny it. sad

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgnIjJexut4&t=7m48s



Your argument is based on pure intellectual dishonesty.

Let me clarify for the viewers reading this debate not familiar with the ins and out on KotOR what Beni is arguing here:

Because the Star Forge offers a permanent boost to Darth Malak (unconfirmed stance #1), and that said permanent boost is far greater than whatever on-nexus energies that would aid Darth Malak (unconfirmed stance #2), therefore the fact a roleplaying game does not have Darth Malak's stats as beyond game limits means that the permanent boost was negligible (wtf? stance #1), thus meaning that the statement declaring Darth Malak is "far more powerful" than Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd is retconed (wtf? stance #2).

Now, let's address why each of these points are wrong, one-by-one.

Unconfirmed stance #1:

- The only indication of this is a passing comment by a group of Rakatan Elders. These Rakatan have no experience with the Star Forge, nor did any Rakata for tens of thousands of years. What these Rakata know about the Star Forge is primarily based on archival information and legends passed down through generations. They have no first-hand experience of the Star Forge, nor is there any quotes suggesting they have any first-hand accounts of Rakatan who used the Star Forge in the past lying around. I will admit, I once did muse that Darth Malak's amp was permanent, but after I thought about it, the notion soon became laughable (Sasukedc laughed at me too, which made me sad - yo, bro, you're going to like some of the memes I use below).

- Darth Malak has had access to the Star Forge since he betrayed Revan, meaning he has had it for a year or more when he fights Revan on the Leviathan. Relatively speaking, the time then between the Leviathan and the Star Forge is comparably brief. Thus meaning, the amount of permanent power Darth Malak would have gathered from the time he assumed the mantle and the Leviathan would be far greater than that which he would get from the Leviathan to the Star Forge, especially considering he was spending "weeks" of that later time torturing Bastila Shan. Yet, we see the power Darth Malak displays on the Leviathan and it is demonstrably, statistically, and admittedly far less powerful than him on the Star Forge. There is no consistency behind this unless, again, Darth Malak's unconfirmed permanent amp isn't actually a major player here.

Unconfirmed stance #2:

- This argument, as far as I'm aware, and as everyone knows I'm a huge KotOR fan, doesn't even a in-universe comment to support. There's nothing that even mentions the idea of a permanent amp besides the Rakatan Elders. Absolutely nothing indicates this amp is greater than the on-nexus Star Forge amp, especially when considering Darth Malak constantly mocks Revan on the Star Forge how Revan is no match for him here, as in, specifically on the Star Forge:

"You made a mistake coming here, Revan. The Star Forge fuels my command of the dark side. You are no match for me here."

Any honest reader would recognize the above quote doesn't convey that Darth Malak would be similarly powerful off the Star Forge. He's ranting and raving about how powerful he is while on it. Of course he's still powerful off it, but by no means comparatively powerful. Also, if you know Darth Malak, you know he's laughably arrogant. He wouldn't make state that he'd only whoop Revan's ass on the Star Forge if he could whoop it on Tatooine too.

Wtf? stance #1:

- This argument doesn't even warrant a response. If we're going to take stats seriously now, I assure you Darth Malak will be coming out of this far better off than he would with just using this canonical and LFL-approval quote: he would be in league with Darth Sidious, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, etc.

Wtf? stance #2:

- I can't even address this point because I can't fathom the mental gymnastics Beni did just to get there.

So, overall, Beni's argument is rooted in falsehoods, unsupported claims, and overall retardation. Again, within the context of KotOR, the Exiles like Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, etc., were in awe over the nexus provided by them for the Star Map, which was a laughably inferior nexus to the Star Forge. The Star Forge is one of the most potent nexus' in Star Forge. On it, Darth Malak will be, as quotes stated, "virtually unstoppable:"

"Its shadowed cavities were infused with the dark side of Force, endowing it with evil, breathing life."

--- --- ---


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgnIjJexut4&t=3m42s



Stats that this forum, nor any forum, sadly does not recognize, but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgnIjJexut4&t=3m45s



If you take "Malak's in game stats as a reflection of his canon abilities," that therefore means you must do the same for all other characters.

That does mean that you have to take other statistics as accurate summations - why the **** wouldn't you?

I assume you'll say that the quote is within the context of game stats, but it's not - it's an independent description of the character.

The idea that you can selectively decide Malak's stats are legit but no one else's is the most retarded thing I ever heard.

That being said, this isn't even relevant. I explained why, above, the stats don't reflect the permanent amp - since that's not what it's referring to.

--- --- ----

Hello viewer, me again. My final point:

I have presented the most basic and straightforward interpretation of everything, backed by a great amount of quotes, and it yields no contradiction.

Beni, on the other hand, is doing everything he possibly can to make a contradiction work.

Even if you don't take the quote seriously, it's clear who's right in this particular circumstance.

That being said, I have little interest of continuing the debate since everyone seems to agree with me anyway.

If you personally agree with Beni, which I don't think anyone does, let me know below so you and I can discuss what's up.

Otherwise, I think this debate is over. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your argument is based on pure intellectual dishonesty.Hilarious. Was the part where you proceed to immediately launch into strawman intended for ironic effect? At the very least try not to be so blatant about rewriting my stance so you're able to rebut it. It makes you look pathetic. laughing out loud

Right, an element of authorial intent can be inferred here. We know that the Elders were descendent from the Rakatan high priest case who possessed the body of knowledge on the nature of the Star Forge which they sealed away within the Temple of Ancients. So it remains well within the realm of possibility that the Elders had preserved a basic understanding of how the Star Forge operated. The fact that the Elders declare that Malak is getting stronger as a fact, rather than a belief, implying that they had factual basis for their claim.

But again, as I said:You opted to ignore this paragraph is exchange for a strawman shitshow, so I can only assume that it because you have no rebuttal. Shame.

The disparity between Malak and SF Malak is irrelevant and a red herring. Even if Malak were far more powerful on the Star Forge than he was when not, this wouldn't preclude the SF giving Malak permanent enhancements, which evidently it did.

Nonetheless you failed to provide any substantiated proof that this is the case anyway, so who cares?

I never claimed this, and in fact stated that Malak was strongest on the Star Forge, needless to say its not relevant to the point, so I'm not even going to bother responding lmfao.

Good, I didn't plan to waste any more time on your strawman anyway. sad

Right... was this supposed to be funny?

Irrelevant, as I already explained.

Not getting the joke, Tony. sad

Sorry? Simply because they are reflections, doesn't mean they are accurate. no expression

Regardless, yes, RPG stats reflect their standing within canon because, well, that's how RPGs work. But because they are adjusted for the game's purposes, they are nonetheless unreliable. I'm sure you know this.

I never once said the stats are legit, in fact, I explictly stated that they are not. Are you confident in reading?

Right, so in short you've rebutted shit and done nothing by flounder. This is really getting sad Tony. Anyway, I'll just leave this here:

1. The original article says that Malak had "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd".
2. To reflect this Malak was given "out of proportion" ingame stats & abilities
3. Had 1. still been the case come 2008, the aforementioned stats would have remained disproportionate, but they didn't, so evidently, it isn't.

The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character. By no means does that make them or any other statistics accurate summations of the characters power in and of themselves.

thumb up

Wow. Are you actually... begging for support here? You know, you had a lot going for you Ant, you even had a tweet from the author to back yourself up, and yet, even when you win, you lose. sad

This debate is over, yeah, good day and until next time Tony.

DarthAnt66
How the **** do you keep typing?

--- --- ---

For starters, I just re-read the original article, and the quote of the day:

"Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

is of different nature than the following:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion.

The latter quote is specifically within game terms, when considering the full context:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

Thus, it's specifically within the RPG stats that such a statement belongs.

You know this already, but I feel I have to make an explicit point in noting the difference between that and the Exar Kun quote, which is the narrative stating it from an out-of-universe, non-gameplay perspective.

My point being the latter quote holds as much legitimacy as would the quotes stating Bastila Shan is of the same level as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Dooku, since that, too, is within "game terms."

--- --- ---

Moving forward, your argument is that a quote, specifically within the context of the game, therefore retcons out of the game.

No, it doesn't. You yourself admit there is a premise someone has to accept before even reading your argument (all other wrongs aside):

Beniboybling: The only premise I need accept here is that Malak's in game stats reflect the canon abilities of his character.

Yeah, no. That's not a premise I'm accepting. I don't think that's a premise anyone is accepting.

Why?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tbrRfKyT6fo/WasCcoXCjGI/AAAAAAAAClo/ASn5DMMokqwm5L-gINC7PnRPObdaUBCPwCL0BGAYYCw/h240/2017-09-02.png

I understand Chee once remarked how they did reflect this and that, but that was many years ago.

This is the existing policy. (credit to DarthSkywalker0 for quote). This is the one I'm using.

And then let's bring up this beauty for a second:



No, you ****ing can't, lmfao.

Why?

Because if we're going strictly be Chee, then the following is also true:

Leland Chee: They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another.

Leland Chee: They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another.

Meaning that no, stats can absolutely be used to compare characters. Thus you have no claim to say it can't be if you're opening that door.

I'm saying: let's not use stats, because if we do, Malak is Sidious level. Canonically.

--- --- ---

And on one last note, your "categorical" shit is nonsense. The quote does not state the amp is permanent. There is no reality where this quote:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers..."

conveys the notion that it's permanent. I would argue the opposite, actually. My interpretation, as stated prior, and again once supported by more evidence than yours, is that:

Darth Malak, using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers..."

In other words, I take the quote that, if Darth Malak is not using said power source, he therefore does not possess "extraordinary dark side Force powers..."

Your entire argument rests on that this quote definitely states this is a permanent amp, but I'm reading this quote and it doesn't even imply that it's permanent.

Your version of the quote, if it suggests an amp, doesn't make sense, since the context of the paragraph is under the assumption he has said powers (i.e. "enhanced Force powers"wink.

Even if it is a permanent amp, which it absolutely is not for a variety of reasons I already discussed, it wouldn't matter, due to points made above.

--- --- ---

Hello dear audience, me again.

I imagine none of you are following this debate anymore, and I can't blame you.

Anywho, to sum it all up:

Malak is far more powerful than Kun. thumb up

Beniboybling
laughing out loud

Your anger is overflowing Tony.

Anyway, you said this was debate was over. And your floundering is becoming nauseous. So I'll just leave some final bullet points:

1. In game terms his stats are disproportionate. In lore terms his powers were enhanced by the Star Forge to be "far greater" than the competition - not hard to figure.

2. A tweet from Pablo in 2017 isn't relevant to Legends 2008. sick

3. The Chee quote says stats CAN be used in such a capacity. Not must, or do. Can.

4. It's categorical, yeah. It doesn't say he can possess, or is able to possess, or that sometimes he possesses, but simply: he possesses. That's categorical. Obviously, he was using the Star Forge to achieve this, and without the Star Forge, he never would have. no expression

Now bye.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. The ability belongs in the game, and the game only. Correct. But it still reflects the lore of the character, and in particular the statement in question. Simple.

Your argument has no merit unless the debater believes RPG stats have the authority to overwrite official literature.

I don't think anyone believes this, so you're in the wrong here.

Best part is, even for the few that do believe this, you're still wrong, for reasons discussed throughout the debate! Heh.



The quote was specifically concerning the Darth Malak quote.

Take the L.

Ya lost!



It says "can" because the following sentence notes that dice should be considered.



You're just repeating yourself here. I already addressed this in it's entirety.

The quote is within the context of his enhanced Force powers, not an independent setting, as indicated by the "Enhanced Force powers --."

Thus, it's referring to Malak under the assumption he's currently amped as per the details of these stats.

Deronn_solo
Damn, Beni is officially the Meek Mill of KMC.

AncientPower
Oh boy, a statement in a blog which could be considered legends canon.

Well, glad to hear that Draay, and by association, literally everybody who can be loosely compared to him in KOTOR is nearing Vader tier:

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Isn't that in the context of the roleplaying game itself? Not that it matters.

AncientPower
Given the logic of the argument at hand, that'd be irrelevant either way.

DarthAnt66
Not necessarily. The Malak quote isn't RPG-game related.

Beni's argument would require it though. thumb up

AncientPower
I do like the top-grade logic though.

Malak >>> Prime Kun >> Pre-prime Kun > Pre-Novel Vitiate.

slayne
thumb up

AncientPower
Which isn't at all contradictory to the fact that:

Novel Vitiate >> Revan Reborn >> Revan Redeemed > Revan severely hindered by the Star Forge > SF!Malk.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Pre-prime Kun > Pre-Novel Vitiate.

Well we got confirmation from the author that the quote doesn't apply to Vitiate.

AncientPower
Except that's not really what he said at all, or else the same logic applies to literally everything new.

DarthAnt66
Exactly. LFL confirmed the other day that quotes apply to the time of the publication, not years after.

AncientPower
Except that it isn't it at all, legends publications don't count in Disney canon. That's all he's saying.

DarthAnt66
I think you're thinking of the wrong quote / not what I'm thinking of.

AncientPower
Then present the quote in reference.

(BTW, TOTJ was re-released as an Omnibus just in the last few years, so it's original publication date is moot.)

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Then present the quote in reference.

(BTW, TOTJ was re-released as an Omnibus just in the last few years, so it's original publication date is moot.)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JS7UbPLc8Qw/Wa41JD8OkBI/AAAAAAAACmc/z7Fc_mkOE2gOfaCztWadz-tUQQSxMIAUgCL0BGAYYCw/h741/2017-09-04.png

Refer to the second comment by Martin, which is what I'm basing this stance off, which is consistent with my emails between authors regarding past quotes.

If we're being intellectually honest here, which I think we always should be when debating, I think it's clear that such a reprint isn't changing my point, BTW.

Then again, such a vague and ambiguous quote is rendered useless regardless when considering the Son and Abeloth are also in the galaxy.

For the record, I'm feeling hostility here, although I'm not sure why.

AncientPower
A comment which literally just says that it was the authorial intent of the author when it was written. He makes no reference to time being a derogatory factor in the validity of such a statement.

As always, Chee's statement stands. Only a direct retcon by a newer source or a newer edition of the same source can invalidate such a statement and there is no contradiction here.

Technically no, Mortis places the Son in an area that is not considered a part of the galaxy. That's made fairly obvious in the episode. Abeloth gets a similar deal, as is established in FOTJ.

Luckily, Sidious' quote is far too all-encompassing to avoid this contradiction.

DarthAnt66
Huh? He's asked if it counts and he responds that it likely does around the time it was written. It seems straight-forward.

I'm not aware Chee has ever made such statement. Can you post it please?

Mortis is a realm, but it's location is still listed as within Wild Space. In regards to Abeloth, the Maw is again still in the galaxy.

Which quote are you referring to exactly?

DarthAnt66
anywho im off for tonight, will get back to you some time tomorrow. peace

The Merchant
SF Malak being stronger than Kun isn't crazy considering the Star Forge is one of the most powerful DS nexuses ever, even Vitiate wanted it. SF also made the blade of Ajunta Pall presumably and that destroyed him considering they got their power from the Forge itself possibly even the star map which makes Malaks SF amp all the more higher scaling from Muur.

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