Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All Out fight

Do the feminists win this one?

Fight takes place in the jedi-temple archives

Sadly, the feminists do win this one. The woman narrowly beats the boy

Luke outright admitted Vader would stomp him if Vader was trying to kill him, but then again, ROTJ Vader is>>Rebels Vader.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Luke outright admitted Vader would stomp him if Vader was trying to kill him, but then again, ROTJ Vader is>>Rebels Vader.


That's all Legends.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's all Legends.
is this canon only? In that case, I guess Luke

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
is this canon only?


I thought that's the default. Unless specifically mentioning someone from Legends only like Revan or Starkiller.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I thought that's the default. Unless specifically mentioning someone from Legends only like Revan or Starkiller.
Nobody in the forum seems to care aside from a handful of exceptions tbh.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nobody in the forum seems to care aside from a handful of exceptions tbh.


They need to start adapting. In any case when talking about characters like Rebels Ashoka they have no place on Legends.

Since Canon has Luke tripping over his own two feet and doubts himself....for whatever reason. Can't really see him win this.

So Disney SJW Canon: Luke loses for being an insecure male

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Since Canon has Luke tripping over his own two feet and doubts himself....for whatever reason. Can't really see him win this.
Did Luke not outright stalemate vader in canon?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Did Luke not outright stalemate vader in canon?

A conflicted Vader it seems. But even still all his other showings thus far in Canon haven't been really great aside from like a couple of instances. The current SW comic series from what I've read, Luke doubts his abilities in being a Jedi and all sorts of other nonsense. Which I don't really get, he blew up the Death Star, he should be walking tall with confidence.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
A conflicted Vader it seems. But even still all his other showings thus far in Canon haven't been really great aside from like a couple of instances. The current SW comic series from what I've read, Luke doubts his abilities in being a Jedi and all sorts of other nonsense.
that's a pre-prime luke though.

And regarding Vader, Luke was hindered too. Not to mention the Vader in ROTJ is likely better than the one who beat and is holistically superior to Ahoska in rebels.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
that's a pre-prime luke though.

And regarding Vader, Luke was hindered too. Not to mentionthe Vader in ROTJ is likely better than the one who beat and is holistically superior to Ahoska in rebels.

Yeah but that's all we have for Luke up to Rotj. As far as combat goes against Force Users.

How was Luke hindered? I mean yeah he didn't want to kill him, but how does that say anything? Likely better, how so? Proof?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah but that's all we have for Luke up to Rotj. As far as combat goes against Force Users.
]
So then, why don't we take what happened regarding the version of Luke in this thread rather than the pre-prime version of him?
Originally posted by Zenwolf
How was Luke hindered? I mean yeah he didn't want to kill him,

Not wanting to fight Vader would hinder him I'd imagine.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
but how does that say anything? Likely better, how so? Proof?
Well, given that Ben Kenobi deepened his connection to the force and improved as a swordsman despite rotting in exile. I'd imagine Vader, who was active in shutting down the rebellion would be capable of growing.

There's also Vader stating in a vision that he became more powerful with every step he took away from Kenobi(this is after killing him).

The quote about him being in his prime per rebels is talking about Vader's hatred and given the context of the quote mentions this only changes when Luke redeems him, this would apply to vader with the exception of when Luke is exploiting his conflict to make him good.

Canon or Legends, Luke wrecks by virtue of being able to contend with ROTJ Vader (saber-wise, that is). Force-wise, Ahsoka has the advantage in Canon, but it is not enough to make up for the pretty wide saber gap.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So then, why don't we take what happened regarding the version of Luke in this thread rather than the pre-prime version of him?

Not wanting to fight Vader would hinder him I'd imagine.

Well, given that Ben Kenobi deepened his connection to the force and improved as a swordsman despite rotting in exile. I'd imagine Vader, who was active in shutting down the rebellion would be capable of growing.

There's also Vader stating in a vision that he became more powerful with every step he took away from Kenobi(this is after killing him).

The quote about him being in his prime per rebels is talking about Vader's hatred and given the context of the quote mentions this only changes when Luke redeems him, this would apply to vader with the exception of when Luke is exploiting his conflict to make him good.

Because there's nothing really for Rotj Luke as far as what he has done, anything else is speculation . But you're really gonna go with a Luke fighting a hindered Vader over Ashoka who was fighting a Vader that was wanting her dead?

Ok I guess. I'd probably agree if they had more to show near the timeframe.

I recall that when he discovers Luke, not after he dies.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Because there's nothing really for Rotj Luke as far as what he has done, anything else is speculation . But you're really gonna go with a Luke fighting a hindered Vader over Ashoka who was fighting a Vader that was wanting her dead?

Like I said, both were hindered. I can reasonably argue that Luke=Vader, I can't argue the same for Ahsoka.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ok I guess. I'd probably agree if they had more to show near the timeframe.

It would make it more solid, but based on relevant evidence, the argument for Luke stalemating Vader is more solid than the argument he can't.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I recall that when he discovers Luke, not after he dies.
True, but I like I said, prime is not referring to Vader's combative power.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Like I said, both were hindered. I can reasonably argue that Luke=Vader, I can't argue the same for Ahsoka.

It would make it more solid, but based on relevant evidence, the argument for Luke stalemating Vader is more solid than the argument he can't.

True, but I like I said, prime is not referring to Vader's combative power.

So you're saying if both weren't hindered than they'd still be on even footing? Because they fought on even footing while hindered? That seems like shaky logic but ok. Though I wouldn't really say Luke was hindered as bad if you wanna go with that.

Didn't you use to say and everyone else, that Vader's prime was Rebels? I miss something?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang


Not wanting to fight Vader would hinder him I'd imagine.




Nah that's the peak state of being a Lightsider in Canon. Ben Kenobi didn't want to fight Maul either, and that was clearly his most enlightened and Peak incarnation.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So you're saying if both weren't hindered than they'd still be on even footing? Because they fought on even footing while hindered? That seems like shaky logic but ok. Though I wouldn't really say Luke was hindered as bad if you wanna go with that.

You could argue that sure.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Didn't you use to say and everyone else, that Vader's prime was Rebels? I miss something?
I used to say that, then I realized I was wrong and stopped saying that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You could argue that sure.

I used to say that, then I realized I was wrong and stopped saying that.

Yeah I just need more to go on.

Why's that?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang


The quote about him being in his prime per rebels is talking about Vader's hatred and given the context of the quote mentions this only changes when Luke redeems him, this would apply to vader with the exception of when Luke is exploiting his conflict to make him good.


Hatred is what makes a Sith Lord powerful. Don't you argue Rebels Maul being in his prime because of this very reason?

Luke by ROTJ bringing out the light side and redeemable qualities in Vader should only make him weaker as a Sith.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Hatred is what makes a Sith Lord powerful. Don't you argue Rebels Maul being in his prime because of this very reason?

No, I argue for Rebels Maul because of a canonical quote that indicates Maul is better when you look at the context and the question of the quote, because Rebels Maul is in the range of a force user whose force feats absolutely curbstomp SOD Maul's, and because Maul has had more than a decade to grow in power, during which he spent most of his time actively doing sh!t like troubling the empire, searching for artifacts, searching for holocrons, and searching for an old rival.

I bring up hatred making force users more powerful as a counter to the claim that Maul's hatred made him weaker as a combatant.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Luke by ROTJ bringing out the light side and redeemable qualities in Vader should only make him weaker as a Sith.
Well, it does actually in his fight vs Luke, but that wouldn't apply to literally any moment before Luke bringing any light inside of Vader. Which leaves plenty of time post-rebels for Vader to grow.

Additionally I'd argue Vader is at his absolute strongest when he fully embraces the lightside out of love for his son and hence is able to perform his most impressive feat, tanking the lightning, while weakened, of the most powerful sith lord in history. But that's just conjecture

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah I just need more to go on.

Why's that?
I was reading Vader comics and read this scan:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5606443

And I then reexamined the context of this quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=131&v=mTkd0MKEm2I
I also read some rather convicing arguments from both Zapan and Jasro on cv which had me sold.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Luke outright admitted Vader would stomp him if Vader was trying to kill him, but then again, ROTJ Vader is>>Rebels Vader.

Too bad several objective quotes and Vader disagrees.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Too bad several objective quotes and Vader disagrees.
The objective quotes saying Luke fought equally with Vader don't negate the context that allowed it to happen.

Vader is only matched/edged by Luke when Luke is drawing on the darkside:



I'm also assuming you're referencing the quote from the ROTJ novelization that states Vader tried to kill Luke.

Lets take another look at it:

The underlined punctuation shows Vader hesitating to make up his mind that he wanted to kill Luke, which means he wasn't trying to kill Luke when they were fighting. Note: At this point the duel is effectively over disregarding when Luke got enraged.

Furthermore, Vader is lying to himself, hence why Luke throws out this classic:
https://youtu.be/jDs2UGCP2Fk?t=1m23s

Vader was not trying to kill Luke at any point during the fight except maybe when Luke was rage amped.

This all only applies to legends off course.

Luke.

The window is utterly coming blank for some reason, so forgive me for crap formatting.

That said, you seem to have missed my point.

So I'll repeat:

Before his rampage at the end, Luke was suddenly drawing on the darkside in the middle of the fight:


^^^^ This is what all your quotes are referring to. hence why some of them explicitly mention this part of the scene:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
^^^^ This is what all your quotes are referring to. hence why some of them explicitly mention this part of the scene:

Hardly, they explicitly state Luke was a match for Vader, no cicumstances needed. And then mid-fight he was even better.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Hardly, they explicitly state Luke was a match for Vader, no cicumstances needed. And then mid-fight he was even better.
The no circumstances needed is stated where exactly?

Just because you have a quote noting an outcome doesn't serve as a basis to disregard how and why such an outcome was achieved.

Otherwise it would be fair game to use Maul and Oppress wielding too much raw power for Kenobi and Ventress despite the context allowing the two to win.

Or to claim that since Vader "killed" Sidious before he died, he equals Sidious.

Luke does end up proving he can match/beat Vader, but only because he was drawing on the dark side and Vader was conflicted.

ROTJ Luke is not equal to Vader in legends, and Luke outright admits as much. Oversimplifying the fight doesn't serve as a solid reason to force a contradiction where there is none.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The no circumstances needed is stated where exactly?

Where does it state rage amp was needed? It flat out says Luke is a match for Vader. I provided like 7 sources and not one of them mentioned any sort of amp, interesting...You think because he got a rage amp mid fight he wasn't a match for Vader beforehand?

Luke was also said to be a challange for ESB Vader and then he grew significantly more powerful up to RotJ.

Also Luke thinks Ben > Sidious, so I wouldn't take him too seriously.

Luke outright defeated him, Ahsoka did less well than Obi Wan did.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Where does it state rage amp was needed? It flat out says Luke is a match for Vader.
Because we have multiple indications that Vader and Luke are not equals.
We have Luke's own admission:



We have Vader's inferior calling Luke sh!t:



We have Vader's inferior proving Luke's sh!t:

Prior to Luke fighting more aggressively, Vader is doing well enough against Luke that he's fcking day dreaming:

And we later learn Vader's been "tolerating" Luke this entire time:


Not to mention that the portion that was underlined was a significant portion of the fight. Hence, if Luke is only matching Vader in quotes you say are referring to the whole of the fight, this would indicate without the portion in question, Luke was losing.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I provided like 7 sources and not one of them mentioned any sort of amp, interesting...You think because he got a rage amp mid fight he wasn't a match for Vader beforehand?

The novelization quote comes directly after the quoted portion of the fight.

You excluded the comic quote that says Luke >= Vader which again is on the pages that show the part of the fight where Luke is enraged:

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Luke was also said to be a challange for ESB Vader and then he grew significantly more powerful up to RotJ.

This proves nothing unless you can prove Luke enough to match Vader without drawing from the darkside.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Also Luke thinks Ben > Sidious, so I wouldn't take him too seriously.
Are you trying to argue that if one quote from a character is false, that means a totally unrelated and uncontradicted quote is also wrong?

You realize that this logic can be used to invalidate quotes by virtually any major character? Kenobi thought himself to be inferior to someone who almost got their heart crushed by an injured Ventress, does this now render Kenobi's admission Anakin was better than him, or the hype he gives Fisto invalid?

Dooku thought that he was greater than Yoda. Does this now mean Dooku recognizing Kenobi and Anakin as the best masters of their forms he's ever met invalid? Does this mean Dooku's assertion that Grevious is >Ventress is pointless?

That someone get's something wrong does not prove they will get everything wrong.

Luke's assertion remains uncontradicted when we consider the context at play and hence is valid for use. Not to mention that the quotes suggests that the holistic intent here is that an unconflicted Vader would demolish Luke.

Regardless this isn't even needed. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that until Luke was drawing on the darkside, he was not fighting Vader as an equal.

In legends, ROTJ Luke is not = Vader

^^^^ sorry bout the formatting fck up in the middle, kmc keeps giving me a blank window when I try to edit

Originally posted by Rockydonovang


Regardless this isn't even needed. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that until Luke was drawing on the darkside, he was not fighting Vader as an equal.




The movie disagrees on that. When Luke says "I will not fight you Father" and Vader replies "You are unwise to lower your defences", they were still fighting as equals. In fact Luke seemed to be overpowering Vader in their blade lock.


Edit- Of course that's all Sabers only. I have no idea about the lack of TK. If that was because Vader couldn't overpower him in TK, or if it was because Vader was completely holding back in that department.

But against Ashoka, I'd go with the guy who (massively pre-prime) shook a Star Destroyer without even noticing what he did.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ahsoka was above Luke in Canon, since it seems like the jury is still out regarding Luke's performance against Vader in RotJ, and Luke's standing in general during that time period, frankly. In Legends though, I believe the consensus more lies with Luke actually being equal to Vader, so I'd say Legends Luke would defeat Ahsoka.

Dude, Zoltan is getting raped by Kbro.

lmao. How the low has fallen even lower.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I wouldn't be surprised if Ahsoka was above Luke in Canon, since it seems like the jury is still out regarding Luke's performance against Vader in RotJ, and Luke's standing in general during that time period, frankly. In Legends though, I believe the consensus more lies with Luke actually being equal to Vader, so I'd say Legends Luke would defeat Ahsoka.

I've certainly found Luke's current Canon showings to be really mediocre compared to his Legends showings in the timeframe.

wait nvm, snoke makes clear vader would have beat luke otherwise

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Dude, Zoltan is getting raped by Kbro.

lmao. How the low has fallen even lower.
or... maybe....

I'm just getting better

Not quite.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not quite.
You underestimate mah power bish

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not quite.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
or... maybe....

I'm just getting better

Don't take DC seriously, he's being a salt mine ever since he knows I don't rate him high as a debater. Every time someone disagrees with me he says I'm being raped even when we were just talking about why we like or don't like a certain a character mmm

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I've certainly found Luke's current Canon showings to be really mediocre compared to his Legends showings in the timeframe.


Isn't his current Canon all pre-ESB though?

I still think him accidentally shaking a SD is amongst the most raw power we've seen in Canon.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't take DC seriously]
Dc does though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Isn't his current Canon all pre-ESB though?

I still think him accidentally shaking a SD is amongst the most raw power we've seen in Canon.

Yeah, but even pre-ESB Legends Luke was better off in the overall form.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah, but even pre-ESB Legends Luke was better off in the overall form.



My point is it doesn't matter too much since it's all pre-Yoda training. Once they get more into the post ESB/ROTJ eras then it might be more of a worry.

But like I said, I personally find shaking a Star Destroyer quite promising for Canon. Plus they seem to be putting an emphasis on him finding ways to learn and train without a Jedi Master.

Snoke didn't even saw them fighting lmao.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Snoke didn't even saw them fighting lmao.
Ah, true

Originally posted by Darth Thor
My point is it doesn't matter too much since it's all pre-Yoda training. Once they get more into the post ESB/ROTJ eras then it might be more of a worry.

But like I said, I personally find shaking a Star Destroyer quite promising for Canon. Plus they seem to be putting an emphasis on him finding ways to learn and train without a Jedi Master.

I suppose post training with Yoda it might be better. Also yeah, though he did also do that in Legends. Though I think it bothers me more that I don't feel like he's confident in himself...which I think is weird considering he blew up the Death Star.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I suppose post training with Yoda it might be better. Also yeah, though he did also do that in Legends. Though I think it bothers me more that I don't feel like he's confident in himself...which I think is weird considering he blew up the Death Star.
yea, wasn't the point of esb that he got overconfident?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
yea, wasn't the point of esb that he got overconfident?

Not sure he got overconfident, or from what I remember. Maybe a little bit.

But yeah, it's weird now, like...why does he doubt himself and his abilities after dealing a huge blow to the Empire? Should be the complete opposite after that.

Luke. Fun fight, though.

Not touching this.