Valkorion vs Darth Sidious

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ILS
Round 1: RotS Sidious

Round 2: Dark Empire Sidious

AAaaaaAAAaaaAaaand go.

TenebrousWay
Sidious. Even if we assume they're comparably powerful, Sidious is the far better warrior.

Ursumeles
1. Valk
2. Who can destroy the opponents physical body or the spirit?

MythLord
Sidious sweeps.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Azronger
Sidious one-shots both

Emperordmb
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Azronger
DMB you traitor

lazybones
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Sidious. Even if we assume they're comparably powerful, Sidious is the far better warrior.

slayne
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

thesithmaster
Round 1: Sidious is canonically superior. Decent fight, but an unquestionable Sidious win.
Round 2: One casual flick of the Dark Lord's finger, Valkorion is dead. Spite. Add in two more Valkorions and the outcome is the same. They get blown away with a wave of the Dark Lord's hand.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Canonically superior isn't a thing anymore. thumb up

darthbane77
Valkorion in both

thesithmaster
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Canonically superior isn't a thing anymore. thumb up

Because of the Sith species thing? Valkorion is now an entity- he doesn't have a body of his own. The entity is not part of a species any longer. It's just a Force wielder with no permanent body. Don't know how that can't have species any longer.

Anyway, Sidious is still the most powerful Dark Sider in existence bar the Son. The quotes you are trying to pass as invalid pretty obviously exclude the Son, as he is more than a mere Dark Side user. They are perfectly valid. ROTS Sidious is, pretty simply, the most powerful Dark Sider in history. And he can simply close the gap between Valkorion and himself, dicing the Emperor up.

ROTS Sidious>Valkorion. Sidious being canonically superior is a thing. That section of your blog has been debunked in, like, three minutes? I'm sorry to do it, given you clearly have dedicated lots of your times to wanking TOR, but fanwank is just something that needs to be purged smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Because of the Sith species thing? Valkorion is now an entity- he doesn't have a body of his own. The entity is not part of a species any longer. It's just a Force wielder with no permanent body. Don't know how that can't have species any longer.

Doesn't really matter, the codex was poorly worded, and the writer clarified thumb up

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Anyway, Sidious is still the most powerful Dark Sider in existence bar the Son. The quotes you are trying to pass as invalid pretty obviously exclude the Son, as he is more than a mere Dark Side user. They are perfectly valid. ROTS Sidious is, pretty simply, the most powerful Dark Sider in history. And he can simply close the gap between Valkorion and himself, dicing the Emperor up.

That's actually why the darksider quotes have no value: they're explicitly contradicted by The Son and Abeloth being more powerful. They are literally false. If you read that part of the blog, maybe you'd recognize that. The Son is still a dark sider, regardless of his standing as a celestial. thumb up

Originally posted by thesithmaster
ROTS Sidious>Valkorion. Sidious being canonically superior is a thing. That section of your blog has been debunked in, like, three minutes? I'm sorry to do it, given you clearly have dedicated lots of your times to wanking TOR, but fanwank is just something that needs to be purged smile

See, this is what I take issue with you. Your arrogance is completely unwarranted given the "quality" of arguments I consistently see with you. If you'd be more respectful, maybe you wouldn't be universally recognized as a sub-PTforthewin scrub. smile

thesithmaster
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Doesn't really matter, the codex was poorly worded, and the writer clarified thumb up



That's actually why the darksider quotes have no value: they're explicitly contradicted by The Son and Abeloth being more powerful. They are literally false. If you read that part of the blog, maybe you'd recognize that. thumb up



See, this is what I take issue with you. Your arrogance is completely unwarranted given the "quality" of arguments I consistently see with you. If you'd be more respectful, maybe you wouldn't be universally recognized as a sub-PTforthewin scrub. smile

But I read the blog. That part at least. The ones you posted are excluding the Son, if you apply logic. It's talking simply about Dark Side users. The Son is an entity. Entirely different things. There is no reason why that quote includes the Son. At all.

Oh, I'm a scrub? I'm absolutely preoccupied that people' salt supplies are huge and they rank me badly. Oh wait. I'm not. They can rain their salt, I don't give a damn.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The issue is that the palpatine quotes regarding him being the most powerful dark sider don't imply any exceptions. they're literally calling him "the most powerful dark side expression" and that he "succeeded where all others had failed in taming the dark side". There's no implied exceptions. The Son and Abeloth contradict the quote. It is literally false. thumb up

Also, what quotes call palpatine the strongest darksider as of ROTS, anyways?

Ursumeles
Originally posted by thesithmaster

Round 2: One casual flick of the Dark Lord's finger, Valkorion is dead. Spite. Add in two more Valkorions and the outcome is the same. They get blown away with a wave of the Dark Lord's hand. no

thesithmaster

DarthAnt66
There's no reason to assume that, since it's not specified, it means all of history. erm

More importantly, the Son uses the dark-side, therefore he would be included.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Huh? That's not how it works. We don't just assume it's referring to all of history if it doesn't say "of the era". It says neither. Ambiguous. thumb up



I don't think you understand how this works. The Son is a practitioner of the dark side. The quote doesn't say "most powerful dark side practitioner sans force entities". The son is a dark side practitioner, he falls under the umbrella of the quote. The quote is literally inaccurate. thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no reason to assume that, since it's not specified, it means all of history. erm

More importantly, the Son uses the dark-side, therefore he would be included.

thumb up

DarthAnt66
The reality is, if you want that to be applied to Valkorion, it has to be applied to the Son, Abeloth, and Luke Skywalker too (vs Yoda).

If we're going all of history, we're going all of history. The book covers everything, not just up until RotS. There's no reason to stop there.

Using it is certainly a double-edged sword - one I don't think anyone is willing to use when considering the consequences.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

TenebrousWay
The "most powerful expression" is also referred from Vader which puts in question the atemporality of the quote.

DarthAnt66
Anyway, on topic:

1. Probably Valkorion.
2. Probably Sidious.

carthage
Sidious curbs

Deronn_solo
Valk definitely takes round one. The second round, however, is up for debate.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anyway, on topic:

1. Probably Valkorion.
2. Probably Sidious.

Trocity
Valkorion beats ROTS Sidious and loses to DE Sidious.

AncientPower
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Vorpal Ruin
Sidious wins.

AncientPower
Nah, Jerec scaling has butchered that idea.

Azronger
laughing out loud

I knew someone would fall for it, lmao

Rockydonovang
Sidious has done sh!t like unbalancing the force, causing weather changes with his hologram, bend lightsaber blades with his lightning, and match/edge the most powerful jedi of all time who himself can lift and manipulate two empire state sized ships telekenitically.

Sids scales from people who have put tears in galaxy wide light bubbles, put telekentic barriers capable of guarding entire fotresses, someone who, with help, can force the force itself to yield, who made the force intervene when he moved to telepatchically disturb everyone in the galaxy, came the closest to discovering immortality, and had learned how to manipulate and create the very buildingblocks of life itself.

Sids has suffecient feats to back up his his place in the lore as the most powerful darksider in history. That quotes are disputable don't make them worthless and with all that Sidious has accomplished, you'll have a hard time trying to dispute their validity.

Sidious's mastery of a lightsaber, being the supreme duelistup untill his time, makes sidious a far greater combatant than Valkorian.

Simply put, Valk dies. smile

AncientPower
Valkorion being a far more potent variation of amped Jerec, who is factually > Sidious makes this all moot.

BlueTiger1144
Sidious wins both rounds. Valkorion doesn't touch DE Sidious.

MythLord
"far more potent variation" LMFAO. That's based on literally nothing.

SunRazer
The sudden outburst of sympathy for Valk is noted, but Sidious still wins. smile

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
The sudden outburst of sympathy for Valk is noted, but Sidious still wins. smile
Read the blog Razer, Valk being more powerful than Yoda is within the realm of possibility, Valk obviously wrecks here.

BlueTiger1144
Yeah. There are some pretty desperate attempts here, lol.

AncientPower
Originally posted by MythLord
"far more potent variation" LMFAO. That's based on literally nothing.

It's based on the excellent analysis of Skillz' blog, there's plenty of basis.

MythLord
The analysis that plainly doesn't work?

Azronger

Rockydonovang
^^^^^ That's not hyperbole.

AncientPower
How sad that Scourge's POV is fallible.

By the way, omniscience isn't immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.

Apples and oranges, Az.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.

That would be a strong nope:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate_zpsccocubym.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20codex%20vitiate_zpsmfop5hwy.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%203_zpsethgktc7.png

And both Encyclopedia and codex say immortality was still the as-of-yet unattained true goal:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%204_zpstitzyltv.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%202_zpsxzyknbwz.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%205_zpsxqe1ufso.png

So... nah.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
How sad that Scourge's POV is fallible.

It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.



Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would be a strong nope:



Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.

Originally posted by Azronger
It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.



Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.

So I guess the above quote, which is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is a lesser variant of the Nathema Ritual, which had many multiples more power and complexity than what it inspired, simply doesn't exist.

The_Tempest
The quote doesn't even imply that the Thought Bomb is lesser than the Nathema ritual, let alone directly state it. erm

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.

"Designed to" grant him immortality.

Which, according to the multiple sources I cited above, didn't actually happen.

AncientPower
Except it clearly did, you're nitpicking so hard the scalp is bleeding.

He gained immortality in terms of longevity. Age and the ravages of time, were no longer a factor to him.

What he later sought out was genuine immortality and omnipotence, two different degrees of immortality. But again, semantics. Nothing but semantics.

Oh and, it actually confirms that Revan's transcription of the ritual in question is indeed exactly what Bane offered Lord Kaan.

The difference is, Kaan and his hundred Sith had a few hours at best. Vitiate had 8,000 full Sith Lords and spent a month enacting it.

The actual damage inflicted is wildly different as well, there were Force users besides Bane who survived, as well as many non-Force sensitives. Only the Sith and Jedi were absorbed into the Thought Bomb, unlike Vitiate. Who, besides 8,000 Sith Lords, absorbed every iota of flora and fauna on the planet, as well as the Force energy of the planet. Reducing the entire planet to a void in the Force.

The Valley of the Jedi in question is so powerful due to the Thought Bomb, which is what would've made Jerec so powerful.

The Nathema Ritual is so clearly and obviously more powerful and of far greater magnitude that there's really no arguing this.

The_Tempest
facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that? erm

Rockydonovang
Bane's ritual granted him omniscence.

Hence Bane performed a > variation of what Vitiate did which means Bane>Vitaite.

Please don't Nitpick my case

ILS
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that? erm rekt

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that? erm

Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.

You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal. erm



But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?





The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.

The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.

You're still lying: the only thing that numerous sources confirm is that Vitiate was not immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal. erm

You're still lying: Vitiate's lifespan is described by numerous sources as merely being "prolonged" and "extended."

Originally posted by AncientPower
But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge

The codex entry on Scourge says that his life was merely "unnaturally prolonged" thanks to "perverse technology" and "his master's dark side powers."

But if you want to hang your hopes on the encyclopedia quote, by all means: it still doesn't confirm Vitiate was immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?

You're still lying: the quote says they share "their Master's longevity" and were "untouched by age for centuries," not that they were immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.

The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.

Not true. If you take what is said about the Valley as literal - that Jerec was transformed into an omniscient superbeing - then the Valley is clearly a far greater nexus than the one at Nathema, or at the very least what Vitiate stood to gain from the process was significantly less than what Jerec attained:

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Assuming you're taking the quotes about Jerec's omniscience from the Valley of the Jedi at face value, then I'd argue it's conclusive proof that the Valley of the Jedi/Thought Bomb is "infinitely" more impressive than what happened on Nathema, since it only "vastly" increased Vitiate's abilities as a dark side practitioner and afforded him neither immortality or omniscience.
Your assessment of Vitiate slaying the Dark Council members in a flash is disingenuous. This may very well have been a trap - not a demonstration of casual, unprepped power. We don't know how the confrontation would have gone had Vitiate not known about it ahead of time.


Besides which, according to the Wizards article that the blog quoted for its assessment of Jerec, the Valley was the site of significantly more power than what was present at Nathema:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valley_zpssnmhnh64.png

TenebrousWay
What does appear after a certain time, gets rekt, and then return to obscurity again?

1) A comet
2) AP

NewGuy01
If his immortality needs to be constantly fed, it's not really immortality.

AncientPower
I'm not lying at all, you're just being purposely obtuse for the sake of your argument.

His life being extended and his life being extended by only a certain point are two different things. You continue to cling to the state that his life was prolonged for centuries, yet this is not necessarily a limitation on the actual extension of his life, because if it was only some centuries, why's he clearly alive over a millennia later?

Because there is no actual contradiction here, you're trying to interpret one whereas the most recent source on the issue, which I've provided, clearly states that the ritual in question was designed to grant him immortality. We know for a fact it was a success, if it wasn't then he wouldn't have had his life extended.

And if you're desperate enough to dive into technicalities, then let's analyse the fact that the Hands went centuries untouched by age, meaning they didn't age whatsoever, ergo they were booned with eternal life. Exactly the same can be said of Scourge, who repeatedly refers to his long life as immortality too.

But please, continue making claims that I'm lying when the only actual issue here is you trying to weasel a contradiction into this debate, when there isn't one.

On the hilarious claim that the Valley of the Jedi is a greater nexus, I would remind you that Nathema was infact stated to be consumed by the largest dark side nexus ever, a nexus which was far more potent in its destructiveness and absorbant nature than any other on record.

Said Wizards article contradicts other sources unfortunately.

But no, even if that were true, I'd like to remind you that the Nathema Ritual resulted in the complete destruction and absorbance of all life and Force energy on Nathema and around it. So whilst there were more Force users, the Force itself was absorbed and reduced to a void by Vitiate. That's literally millions of times more Force energy.

SunRazer
Nathema being the largest (you can dispute whether that means the most powerful) dark side nexus up to its time doesn't make it more powerful than future nexuses such as the Valley of the Jedi, nor ones that aren't dark side nexuses, such as, again, the Valley of the Jedi. Note that TOR: E is an in-universe, fallible source with a limited perspective that fails to even take into account other nexuses of the time like the Pool of Knowledge and the Font of Power. That statement isn't absolute to begin with.

Not sure if you're grasping what Temp's saying. I'm completely befuddled as to how it would be hilarious to claim the Valley of the Jedi to be a greater nexus than Nathema, when:

a) The Valley of the Jedi stores the collected power of dozens of thousands of Jedi and Sith, whereas Nathema only has 8000. That's assuming you can equate the contribution of each slain Jedi/Sith to their respective nexus. Sure, there's also the regular population and the plants and vermin, but there's no reasonable basis to assume that would make up for the many thousands of Force users' difference. Especially since most sources refer to the 8000 Sith Lords being the primary source of power for Vitiate, suggesting that the other stuff is comparatively paltry or outright negligible by comparison. As for him shredding the fabric of the Force there, that's nice but just a byproduct of the ritual. No source indicates that he gained that power for himself.

b) The Valley of the Jedi has long been purported online to be identified (or at least widely believed in-universe) as the most powerful Force nexus ever. Don't have a source on-hand but it's worth mentioning.

c) If you're assuming the Valley of the Jedi afforded Jerec literal omniscience, then evidently whatever Nathema afforded Vitiate doesn't compare. At no point in the 1300 years after Nathema does Vitiate display anything resembling or equalling omniscience. This isn't even an argument.

AncientPower
Firstly, that's not what it states:



So not only does this debunk the idea that the Encyclopedia is of a strictly limited perspective, but Bioware itself, with the aid of LFL, confirmed the authenticity of its content by stating such at the beginning of the book.

The Font of Knowledge and Pool of Power being in an entirely different realm negates that conflict, by the way.

Furthermore, Darth Bane: Path of Destruction reveals that both armies destroyed each other in the seventh battle of Ruusan, only resulting in a stalemate between the remnants of those decimated forces. This is what convinces Bane to go straight ahead with the Thought Bomb. So, if they're stalemated, then logically they are of similar numbers, and we know that Lord Hoth went to stop Kaan with precisely 99 Jedi Knights.

Ergo, there's no way in hell that there are dozens of thousands of Jedi and Sith captured within the Thought Bomb. The Wizards article is clearly a victim of a retcon. Drew Karpyshyn strikes again.

Well one can simply look at Darth Nyriss' own explanation of the event, which whilst based on her fallible POV, is nonetheless corroborated by other sources.

She makes it clear that the 8,000 Sith were only the eye of the storm and goes on to state that the Force itself fed his immortality, which is infact repeated by another source.

Now omniscience is incredibly impressive, you're right, but its not the only thing here which can be ascribed as being incredibly impressive. If we are taking his omniscient power at face value, then we have no reason at all to not do the same for the statements from the Encyclopedia, Codex Entries, Holonet info, Bioware staff and more all proclaiming Vitiate to be nigh-Godlike, with immeasurable and unfathomable power. It's stated that the ritual literally changed his state of being. This isn't new.

AncientPower
Though an entirely separate argument can be made regarding the fact that it's stated that Meetra Surik couldn't even imagine how powerful the Nathema Ritual made Lord Vitiate.

All this despite the fact that she's faced Nihilus who was a being of such power that his perceptions were essentially beyond everybody else's, not to mention the fact that he speaks a language that is literally so unknown that it could only be of a source either so ancient that he himself could never have personally experienced it, or was literally speaking the raw dialect of the Force, or another insane conclusion.

That and he's a manifestation of devouring numerous planets' worth of Force energy.

Clearly, Vitiate's ritual was uniquely potent for some reason, Drew went to the lengths of trashing KOTOR2 to establish that.

Haschwalth
Could Valkorian scale to the world Razer?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.
Per your logic, no being can be deemed immortal in Star Wars because nothing lasts forever.

Vitiate is identified as an immortal being in different sources:

The Emperor is one thousand years old. In a dark side ritual, he drained the life of his home planet, to achieve immortality.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

---

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

Under the guidance of the Emperor - the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years - they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion

---

Vitiate had achieved a reasonable degree of immortality by prolonging his corporeal existence for 1000 years until he decided to ditch it altogether because he acquired the capability to retain his presence outside his physical shell and the need to anchor it to any object - abilities beyond the domain of Sith Lords and even Sith spirits. Even Palpatine could not resist pull of the void as a spirit and needed a body to ensure his existence.

Point is that Vitiate would not seize to exist on his own - bodies or not. The only way to stop him was to destroy his spirit which was not possible without the use of his own devices against it.

The statements you are clinging to, imply immortality in the context of omnipotence. Not in a generic way.

S_W_LeGenD
Double.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Could Valkorian scale to the world Razer?

Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by AncientPower
Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Are you sure the world razer is not force sensitive?
Isn't it a creature, meaning it should have a connection to the force.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer


c) If you're assuming the Valley of the Jedi afforded Jerec literal omniscience, then evidently whatever Nathema afforded Vitiate doesn't compare. At no point in the 1300 years after Nathema does Vitiate display anything resembling or equalling omniscience. This isn't even an argument.
It's literal. Jerec, literally gained knowledge into crap nobody in the galaxy had a clue about.

Prof. T.C McAbe

AncientPower
. . . Wut?

The_Tempest
So, to recap: you haven't proven Vitiate is immortal, you haven't proven that Nathema is a greater nexus than the Valley of the Jedi (which isn't a dark side nexus), and you haven't proven why Vitiate's powerup would come close to Jerec's.

All you've done instead is lie and twist prolifically. I don't know why I expected anything else from the person who brought us the KOTORCG gloss holographic edition and the power of cinematic filters.

Ironic since you've complained endlessly about the quality of debates around here.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by AncientPower
Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Where is this stated?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Per your logic, no being can be deemed immortal in Star Wars because nothing lasts forever.

Vitiate is identified as an immortal being in different sources:

The Emperor is one thousand years old. In a dark side ritual, he drained the life of his home planet, to achieve immortality.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

---

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

Under the guidance of the Emperor - the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years - they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion

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Vitiate had achieved a reasonable degree of immortality by prolonging his corporeal existence for 1000 years until he decided to ditch it altogether because he acquired the capability to retain his presence outside his physical shell and the need to anchor it to any object - abilities beyond the domain of Sith Lords and even Sith spirits. Even Palpatine could not resist pull of the void as a spirit and needed a body to ensure his existence.

Point is that Vitiate would not seize to exist on his own - bodies or not. The only way to stop him was to destroy his spirit which was not possible without the use of his own devices against it.

The statements you are clinging to, imply immortality in the context of omnipotence. Not in a generic way.

All of which was retconned. thumb up

Thanks, Karpyshyn. And he literally tells you he needs a body to preserve his spirit, literally tells you he only plans to ditch his body to take the Outlander's, we're told his immortality isn't really immortality and requires him to consume planets, and finally, what does this have to do with anything again?

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, to recap: you haven't proven Vitiate is immortal, you haven't proven that Nathema is a greater nexus than the Valley of the Jedi (which isn't a dark side nexus), and you haven't proven why Vitiate's powerup would come close to Jerec's.

All you've done instead is lie and twist prolifically. I don't know why I expected anything else from the person who brought us the KOTORCG gloss holographic edition and the power of cinematic filters.

Ironic since you've complained endlessly about the quality of debates around here.

Somebody's butthurt. thumb up laughing out loud

AncientPower
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where is this stated?

FreshestSlice
What that actually says is, "While we've had rumors of this kind of thing happening before, this is a clear example." It does not say what you think it says.

AncientPower
Considering the entire quote-I only quoted the relevant part- is referring to global cataclysms of all kinds, and then turns to how spooky planets ravaged by the dark side are, yeah somehow I doubt this is just a codex entry about space rumors reported on Holonet showbiz. They're actively wanking what Valk did and separating it from other, similar attacks. Simple.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What that actually says is, "While we've had rumors of this kind of thing happening before, this is a clear example." It does not say what you think it says.
thumb up AP's interpretation is BS like usual

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering the entire quote-I only quoted the relevant part- is referring to global cataclysms of all kinds, and then turns to how spooky planets ravaged by the dark side are, yeah somehow I doubt this is just a codex entry about space rumors reported on Holonet showbiz. They're actively wanking what Valk did and separating it from other, similar attacks. Simple.

We really doing this? Alright then.






Good so far.

Uh huh.


So basically....exactly what I said.


Maybe you can fool the idiocy of someone who doesn't actually play this game, but at the same time is too lazy to use Google, but not I, friend. Nice try, AP.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It's literal. Jerec, literally gained knowledge into crap nobody in the galaxy had a clue about.

No, it isn't. Had Jerec truly been all-knowing, he would have known he wasn't untouchable, a factually incorrect notion, and he wouldn't have let Katarn sever his connection to the Force while he literally did nothing to defend himself.

The_Tempest
After years of witnessing cringeworthy interactions with AP, I think we can safely conclude she's a pathological liar.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, it isn't. Had Jerec truly been all-knowing, he would have known he wasn't untouchable, a factually incorrect notion, and he wouldn't have let Katarn sever his connection to the Force while he literally did nothing to defend himself.
Fair enough

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All of which was retconned. thumb up
WRONG.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And he literally tells you he needs a body to preserve his spirit, literally tells you he only plans to ditch his body to take the Outlander's,
Really?

Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free. (Tenebrae)

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
we're told his immortality isn't really immortality
If you are assuming omnipotence then no being in Star Wars became immortal in true sense of the word.

I see immortality in following ways:-

1. Ability to cheat death and extend life for indefinite period.
3. Omnipotence*

*Omnipotence is an impossibility.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
and requires him to consume planets, and finally, what does this have to do with anything again?
No, he consumed Ziost to replenish his strength. Hunger was a side-effect of his experiment on Medriaas.

FreshestSlice
Dude says he's made you into a vessel worthy of, "Holding and preserving spirit."

His father then goes on to tell you he needs to constantly consume life to keep his immortality, hence Ziost. Stop acting like a block of wood. No one with even only a fundamental understanding of English gets the words immortal and omnipotent mixed up. They don't even sound the same or have even remotely similar definitions. Stop deflecting.

Well I guess you'll have a source for that claim. I mean I know you don't, but I'll give you the chance to find one.


On a side note, I used to think KotET was ****ing retarded, but since it's destroyed almost every Vitishit argument you've ever made, it might actually be the greatest piece of Star Wars media to ever grace my computer.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The_Tempest
After years of witnessing cringeworthy interactions with AP, I think we can safely conclude she's a pathological liar.

Aw, did I not conform to your personal view poing of everything? I'll be sure not to leave your ass so raging hot next time.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dude says he's made you into a vessel worthy of, "Holding and preserving spirit."
This is the statement:

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit." (Tenebrae)

The 'preserving' part = in this case.

Tenebrae's spirit had latched onto the Outlander for years and had been a source of great power whenever called upon. Sounds like a plot device instead of being a requirement because events of Shadow of Revan and Rise of the Emperor are part of BioWare canon and acknowledged in later expansions.

We have clearly seen Tenebrae making his presence known in Yavin IV, teleporting from Yavin IV to Ziost and subsequently devastating Ziost in intangible form. This event chain wouldn't be possible if Tenebrae could not retain his presence outside a body and/or could not resist pull of the void.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
His father then goes on to tell you he needs to constantly consume life to keep his immortality, hence Ziost.
His immortality, right? thumb up

Tenebrae also benefits from siphoning energies of his subjects; his growth in power. thumb up

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Stop acting like a block of wood. No one with even only a fundamental understanding of English gets the words immortal and omnipotent mixed up. They don't even sound the same or have even remotely similar definitions. Stop deflecting.
Really?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x9h4t/if_you_were_an_immortal_omnipotent_being_what/

Tenebrae's ability to prolong his corporeal existence for indefinite period and his ability to cheat corporeal death on top of it, implies immortality.

How would you describe him otherwise?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well I guess you'll have a source for that claim. I mean I know you don't, but I'll give you the chance to find one.
Tenebrae's hunger is implied to be a by-product of his immortality condition which in turn is the outcome of his NATHEMA experiment, and his course-of-action was to siphon the energy of his subjects in order to satiate it.

You can also look at the case of Darth Nihilus; his hunger was a by-product of his Wound condition and his course-of-action was to siphon the energy of his subjects in order to satiate it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
On a side note, I used to think KotET was ****ing retarded, but since it's destroyed almost every Vitishit argument you've ever made, it might actually be the greatest piece of Star Wars media to ever grace my computer.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Shadow of Revan and Rise of the Emperor are part of the lore. See above.

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