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Round 1: RotS Sidious

Round 2: Dark Empire Sidious

AAaaaaAAAaaaAaaand go.

Sidious. Even if we assume they're comparably powerful, Sidious is the far better warrior.

1. Valk
2. Who can destroy the opponents physical body or the spirit?

Sidious sweeps.

Valkorion in both.

Sidious one-shots both

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

DMB you traitor

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Sidious. Even if we assume they're comparably powerful, Sidious is the far better warrior.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Round 1: Sidious is canonically superior. Decent fight, but an unquestionable Sidious win.
Round 2: One casual flick of the Dark Lord's finger, Valkorion is dead. Spite. Add in two more Valkorions and the outcome is the same. They get blown away with a wave of the Dark Lord's hand.

Canonically superior isn't a thing anymore.

Valkorion in both

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Canonically superior isn't a thing anymore.

Because of the Sith species thing? Valkorion is now an entity- he doesn't have a body of his own. The entity is not part of a species any longer. It's just a Force wielder with no permanent body. Don't know how that can't have species any longer.

Anyway, Sidious is still the most powerful Dark Sider in existence bar the Son. The quotes you are trying to pass as invalid pretty obviously exclude the Son, as he is more than a mere Dark Side user. They are perfectly valid. ROTS Sidious is, pretty simply, the most powerful Dark Sider in history. And he can simply close the gap between Valkorion and himself, dicing the Emperor up.

ROTS Sidious>Valkorion. Sidious being canonically superior is a thing. That section of your blog has been debunked in, like, three minutes? I'm sorry to do it, given you clearly have dedicated lots of your times to wanking TOR, but fanwank is just something that needs to be purged

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Because of the Sith species thing? Valkorion is now an entity- he doesn't have a body of his own. The entity is not part of a species any longer. It's just a Force wielder with no permanent body. Don't know how that can't have species any longer.

Doesn't really matter, the codex was poorly worded, and the writer clarified

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Anyway, Sidious is still the most powerful Dark Sider in existence bar the Son. The quotes you are trying to pass as invalid pretty obviously exclude the Son, as he is more than a mere Dark Side user. They are perfectly valid. ROTS Sidious is, pretty simply, the most powerful Dark Sider in history. And he can simply close the gap between Valkorion and himself, dicing the Emperor up.

That's actually why the darksider quotes have no value: they're explicitly contradicted by The Son and Abeloth being more powerful. They are literally false. If you read that part of the blog, maybe you'd recognize that. The Son is still a dark sider, regardless of his standing as a celestial.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
ROTS Sidious>Valkorion. Sidious being canonically superior is a thing. That section of your blog has been debunked in, like, three minutes? I'm sorry to do it, given you clearly have dedicated lots of your times to wanking TOR, but fanwank is just something that needs to be purged

See, this is what I take issue with you. Your arrogance is completely unwarranted given the "quality" of arguments I consistently see with you. If you'd be more respectful, maybe you wouldn't be universally recognized as a sub-PTforthewin scrub.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Doesn't really matter, the codex was poorly worded, and the writer clarified



That's actually why the darksider quotes have no value: they're explicitly contradicted by The Son and Abeloth being more powerful. They are literally false. If you read that part of the blog, maybe you'd recognize that.



See, this is what I take issue with you. Your arrogance is completely unwarranted given the "quality" of arguments I consistently see with you. If you'd be more respectful, maybe you wouldn't be universally recognized as a sub-PTforthewin scrub.

But I read the blog. That part at least. The ones you posted are excluding the Son, if you apply logic. It's talking simply about Dark Side users. The Son is an entity. Entirely different things. There is no reason why that quote includes the Son. At all.

Oh, I'm a scrub? I'm absolutely preoccupied that people' salt supplies are huge and they rank me badly. Oh wait. I'm not. They can rain their salt, I don't give a damn.

The issue is that the palpatine quotes regarding him being the most powerful dark sider don't imply any exceptions. they're literally calling him "the most powerful dark side expression" and that he "succeeded where all others had failed in taming the dark side". There's no implied exceptions. The Son and Abeloth contradict the quote. It is literally false.

Also, what quotes call palpatine the strongest darksider as of ROTS, anyways?

Originally posted by thesithmaster

Round 2: One casual flick of the Dark Lord's finger, Valkorion is dead. Spite. Add in two more Valkorions and the outcome is the same. They get blown away with a wave of the Dark Lord's hand.

There's no reason to assume that, since it's not specified, it means all of history.

More importantly, the Son uses the dark-side, therefore he would be included.

Huh? That's not how it works. We don't just assume it's referring to all of history if it doesn't say "of the era". It says neither. Ambiguous.



I don't think you understand how this works. The Son is a practitioner of the dark side. The quote doesn't say "most powerful dark side practitioner sans force entities". The son is a dark side practitioner, he falls under the umbrella of the quote. The quote is literally inaccurate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no reason to assume that, since it's not specified, it means all of history.

More importantly, the Son uses the dark-side, therefore he would be included.

The reality is, if you want that to be applied to Valkorion, it has to be applied to the Son, Abeloth, and Luke Skywalker too (vs Yoda).

If we're going all of history, we're going all of history. The book covers everything, not just up until RotS. There's no reason to stop there.

Using it is certainly a double-edged sword - one I don't think anyone is willing to use when considering the consequences.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

The "most powerful expression" is also referred from Vader which puts in question the atemporality of the quote.

Anyway, on topic:

1. Probably Valkorion.
2. Probably Sidious.

Sidious curbs

Valk definitely takes round one. The second round, however, is up for debate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anyway, on topic:

1. Probably Valkorion.
2. Probably Sidious.

Valkorion beats ROTS Sidious and loses to DE Sidious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Sidious wins.

Nah, Jerec scaling has butchered that idea.

I knew someone would fall for it, lmao

Sidious has done sh!t like unbalancing the force, causing weather changes with his hologram, bend lightsaber blades with his lightning, and match/edge the most powerful jedi of all time who himself can lift and manipulate two empire state sized ships telekenitically.

Sids scales from people who have put tears in galaxy wide light bubbles, put telekentic barriers capable of guarding entire fotresses, someone who, with help, can force the force itself to yield, who made the force intervene when he moved to telepatchically disturb everyone in the galaxy, came the closest to discovering immortality, and had learned how to manipulate and create the very buildingblocks of life itself.

Sids has suffecient feats to back up his his place in the lore as the most powerful darksider in history. That quotes are disputable don't make them worthless and with all that Sidious has accomplished, you'll have a hard time trying to dispute their validity.

Sidious's mastery of a lightsaber, being the supreme duelistup untill his time, makes sidious a far greater combatant than Valkorian.

Simply put, Valk dies.

Valkorion being a far more potent variation of amped Jerec, who is factually > Sidious makes this all moot.

Sidious wins both rounds. Valkorion doesn't touch DE Sidious.

"far more potent variation" LMFAO. That's based on literally nothing.

The sudden outburst of sympathy for Valk is noted, but Sidious still wins.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The sudden outburst of sympathy for Valk is noted, but Sidious still wins.
Read the blog Razer, Valk being more powerful than Yoda is within the realm of possibility, Valk obviously wrecks here.

Yeah. There are some pretty desperate attempts here, lol.

Originally posted by MythLord
"far more potent variation" LMFAO. That's based on literally nothing.

It's based on the excellent analysis of Skillz' blog, there's plenty of basis.

The analysis that plainly doesn't work?

^^^^^ That's not hyperbole.

How sad that Scourge's POV is fallible.

By the way, omniscience isn't immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.

Apples and oranges, Az.

Originally posted by AncientPower
immortality, which is what Vitiate gained. Not invulnerability, but immortality nonetheless.

That would be a strong nope:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Encyclopedia and codex state the ritual merely prolonged his life:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate_zpsccocubym.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtor%20codex%20vitiate_zpsmfop5hwy.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%203_zpsethgktc7.png

And both Encyclopedia and codex say immortality was still the as-of-yet unattained true goal:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%204_zpstitzyltv.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%202_zpsxzyknbwz.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/swtore%20vitiate%205_zpsxqe1ufso.png

So... nah.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How sad that Scourge's POV is fallible.

It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.



Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That would be a strong nope:



Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.

Originally posted by Azronger
It is fallible, sure, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss something in itself. Scourge is pretty much on the money here. Vitiate isn't omniscient; this much should be very clear and not need any quote to confirm it, but at least it puts the burden of proof on those who support the scaling.



Um, nice way to debunk your own argument and scaling by admitting the result of the rituals weren't even remotely the same and thus can't be compared. Apples and oranges indeed.

So I guess the above quote, which is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is a lesser variant of the Nathema Ritual, which had many multiples more power and complexity than what it inspired, simply doesn't exist.

The quote doesn't even imply that the Thought Bomb is lesser than the Nathema ritual, let alone directly state it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hm, strange that it seems as if you're arguing semantics, he had not yet achieved omnipotence, but he did achieve immortal longevity and is clearly immune to the ravaging damages of the dark side.

"Designed to" grant him immortality.

Which, according to the multiple sources I cited above, didn't actually happen.

Except it clearly did, you're nitpicking so hard the scalp is bleeding.

He gained immortality in terms of longevity. Age and the ravages of time, were no longer a factor to him.

What he later sought out was genuine immortality and omnipotence, two different degrees of immortality. But again, semantics. Nothing but semantics.

Oh and, it actually confirms that Revan's transcription of the ritual in question is indeed exactly what Bane offered Lord Kaan.

The difference is, Kaan and his hundred Sith had a few hours at best. Vitiate had 8,000 full Sith Lords and spent a month enacting it.

The actual damage inflicted is wildly different as well, there were Force users besides Bane who survived, as well as many non-Force sensitives. Only the Sith and Jedi were absorbed into the Thought Bomb, unlike Vitiate. Who, besides 8,000 Sith Lords, absorbed every iota of flora and fauna on the planet, as well as the Force energy of the planet. Reducing the entire planet to a void in the Force.

The Valley of the Jedi in question is so powerful due to the Thought Bomb, which is what would've made Jerec so powerful.

The Nathema Ritual is so clearly and obviously more powerful and of far greater magnitude that there's really no arguing this.

facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that?

Bane's ritual granted him omniscence.

Hence Bane performed a > variation of what Vitiate did which means Bane>Vitaite.

Please don't Nitpick my case

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that? rekt

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

I'm not nitpicking, you're lying.

You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.

You then claimed the quote you cited confirms the Nathema ritual is absolute confirmation that the Thought Bomb is the "lesser variant" of the Nathema ritual. That's a lie: all it says is that it served as "inspiration." Does serving as inspiration somehow make the Death Star more powerful than Starkiller Base?

Feel free to make your case, but dont lie.

Are you even capable of that?

Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.

You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal.



But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?





The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.

The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except I just showed you a much more recent quote stating that the ritual was designed to grant him immortality, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was infact successful. As numerous sources confirm.

You're still lying: the only thing that numerous sources confirm is that Vitiate was not immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're nitpicking by claiming that eternal life, though not omniscience or invulnerability, doesn't make him immortal.

You're still lying: Vitiate's lifespan is described by numerous sources as merely being "prolonged" and "extended."

Originally posted by AncientPower
But let's also ignore the fact that Lord Scourge

The codex entry on Scourge says that his life was merely "unnaturally prolonged" thanks to "perverse technology" and "his master's dark side powers."

But if you want to hang your hopes on the encyclopedia quote, by all means: it still doesn't confirm Vitiate was immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
and Vitiate's Hand weren't all bestowed with eternal life by Vitiate too, right?

You're still lying: the quote says they share "their Master's longevity" and were "untouched by age for centuries," not that they were immortal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The resources and results of the Nathema Ritual are exponentially greater than the resources and results of the Thought Bomb. The entire Thought Bomb ritual was hastily thrown together by Lord Kaan and the remaining Sith, infact it was so shoddily done that it killed him too.

The conclusion here is obvious, I don't need to argue it with you to somehow prove it either.

Not true. If you take what is said about the Valley as literal - that Jerec was transformed into an omniscient superbeing - then the Valley is clearly a far greater nexus than the one at Nathema, or at the very least what Vitiate stood to gain from the process was significantly less than what Jerec attained:

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Assuming you're taking the quotes about Jerec's omniscience from the Valley of the Jedi at face value, then I'd argue it's conclusive proof that the Valley of the Jedi/Thought Bomb is "infinitely" more impressive than what happened on Nathema, since it only "vastly" increased Vitiate's abilities as a dark side practitioner and afforded him neither immortality or omniscience.
Your assessment of Vitiate slaying the Dark Council members in a flash is disingenuous. This may very well have been a trap - not a demonstration of casual, unprepped power. We don't know how the confrontation would have gone had Vitiate not known about it ahead of time.


Besides which, according to the Wizards article that the blog quoted for its assessment of Jerec, the Valley was the site of significantly more power than what was present at Nathema:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/valley_zpssnmhnh64.png

What does appear after a certain time, gets rekt, and then return to obscurity again?

1) A comet
2) AP

If his immortality needs to be constantly fed, it's not really immortality.

I'm not lying at all, you're just being purposely obtuse for the sake of your argument.

His life being extended and his life being extended by only a certain point are two different things. You continue to cling to the state that his life was prolonged for centuries, yet this is not necessarily a limitation on the actual extension of his life, because if it was only some centuries, why's he clearly alive over a millennia later?

Because there is no actual contradiction here, you're trying to interpret one whereas the most recent source on the issue, which I've provided, clearly states that the ritual in question was designed to grant him immortality. We know for a fact it was a success, if it wasn't then he wouldn't have had his life extended.

And if you're desperate enough to dive into technicalities, then let's analyse the fact that the Hands went centuries untouched by age, meaning they didn't age whatsoever, ergo they were booned with eternal life. Exactly the same can be said of Scourge, who repeatedly refers to his long life as immortality too.

But please, continue making claims that I'm lying when the only actual issue here is you trying to weasel a contradiction into this debate, when there isn't one.

On the hilarious claim that the Valley of the Jedi is a greater nexus, I would remind you that Nathema was infact stated to be consumed by the largest dark side nexus ever, a nexus which was far more potent in its destructiveness and absorbant nature than any other on record.

Said Wizards article contradicts other sources unfortunately.

But no, even if that were true, I'd like to remind you that the Nathema Ritual resulted in the complete destruction and absorbance of all life and Force energy on Nathema and around it. So whilst there were more Force users, the Force itself was absorbed and reduced to a void by Vitiate. That's literally millions of times more Force energy.

Nathema being the largest (you can dispute whether that means the most powerful) dark side nexus up to its time doesn't make it more powerful than future nexuses such as the Valley of the Jedi, nor ones that aren't dark side nexuses, such as, again, the Valley of the Jedi. Note that TOR: E is an in-universe, fallible source with a limited perspective that fails to even take into account other nexuses of the time like the Pool of Knowledge and the Font of Power. That statement isn't absolute to begin with.

Not sure if you're grasping what Temp's saying. I'm completely befuddled as to how it would be hilarious to claim the Valley of the Jedi to be a greater nexus than Nathema, when:

a) The Valley of the Jedi stores the collected power of dozens of thousands of Jedi and Sith, whereas Nathema only has 8000. That's assuming you can equate the contribution of each slain Jedi/Sith to their respective nexus. Sure, there's also the regular population and the plants and vermin, but there's no reasonable basis to assume that would make up for the many thousands of Force users' difference. Especially since most sources refer to the 8000 Sith Lords being the primary source of power for Vitiate, suggesting that the other stuff is comparatively paltry or outright negligible by comparison. As for him shredding the fabric of the Force there, that's nice but just a byproduct of the ritual. No source indicates that he gained that power for himself.

b) The Valley of the Jedi has long been purported online to be identified (or at least widely believed in-universe) as the most powerful Force nexus ever. Don't have a source on-hand but it's worth mentioning.

c) If you're assuming the Valley of the Jedi afforded Jerec literal omniscience, then evidently whatever Nathema afforded Vitiate doesn't compare. At no point in the 1300 years after Nathema does Vitiate display anything resembling or equalling omniscience. This isn't even an argument.

Firstly, that's not what it states:



So not only does this debunk the idea that the Encyclopedia is of a strictly limited perspective, but Bioware itself, with the aid of LFL, confirmed the authenticity of its content by stating such at the beginning of the book.

The Font of Knowledge and Pool of Power being in an entirely different realm negates that conflict, by the way.

Furthermore, Darth Bane: Path of Destruction reveals that both armies destroyed each other in the seventh battle of Ruusan, only resulting in a stalemate between the remnants of those decimated forces. This is what convinces Bane to go straight ahead with the Thought Bomb. So, if they're stalemated, then logically they are of similar numbers, and we know that Lord Hoth went to stop Kaan with precisely 99 Jedi Knights.

Ergo, there's no way in hell that there are dozens of thousands of Jedi and Sith captured within the Thought Bomb. The Wizards article is clearly a victim of a retcon. Drew Karpyshyn strikes again.

Well one can simply look at Darth Nyriss' own explanation of the event, which whilst based on her fallible POV, is nonetheless corroborated by other sources.

She makes it clear that the 8,000 Sith were only the eye of the storm and goes on to state that the Force itself fed his immortality, which is infact repeated by another source.

Now omniscience is incredibly impressive, you're right, but its not the only thing here which can be ascribed as being incredibly impressive. If we are taking his omniscient power at face value, then we have no reason at all to not do the same for the statements from the Encyclopedia, Codex Entries, Holonet info, Bioware staff and more all proclaiming Vitiate to be nigh-Godlike, with immeasurable and unfathomable power. It's stated that the ritual literally changed his state of being. This isn't new.

Though an entirely separate argument can be made regarding the fact that it's stated that Meetra Surik couldn't even imagine how powerful the Nathema Ritual made Lord Vitiate.

All this despite the fact that she's faced Nihilus who was a being of such power that his perceptions were essentially beyond everybody else's, not to mention the fact that he speaks a language that is literally so unknown that it could only be of a source either so ancient that he himself could never have personally experienced it, or was literally speaking the raw dialect of the Force, or another insane conclusion.

That and he's a manifestation of devouring numerous planets' worth of Force energy.

Clearly, Vitiate's ritual was uniquely potent for some reason, Drew went to the lengths of trashing KOTOR2 to establish that.

Could Valkorian scale to the world Razer?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You first claimed that Vitiate was immortal. That's a lie: the ritual only "prolonged his life" and "vastly" increased his powers. Impressive? Sure. But that's hardly immortality and omniscience.
Per your logic, no being can be deemed immortal in Star Wars because nothing lasts forever.

Vitiate is identified as an immortal being in different sources:

The Emperor is one thousand years old. In a dark side ritual, he drained the life of his home planet, to achieve immortality.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

---

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

Under the guidance of the Emperor - the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years - they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion

---

Vitiate had achieved a reasonable degree of immortality by prolonging his corporeal existence for 1000 years until he decided to ditch it altogether because he acquired the capability to retain his presence outside his physical shell and the need to anchor it to any object - abilities beyond the domain of Sith Lords and even Sith spirits. Even Palpatine could not resist pull of the void as a spirit and needed a body to ensure his existence.

Point is that Vitiate would not seize to exist on his own - bodies or not. The only way to stop him was to destroy his spirit which was not possible without the use of his own devices against it.

The statements you are clinging to, imply immortality in the context of omnipotence. Not in a generic way.

Double.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Could Valkorian scale to the world Razer?

Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Are you sure the world razer is not force sensitive?
Isn't it a creature, meaning it should have a connection to the force.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion in both.

Originally posted by SunRazer


c) If you're assuming the Valley of the Jedi afforded Jerec literal omniscience, then evidently whatever Nathema afforded Vitiate doesn't compare. At no point in the 1300 years after Nathema does Vitiate display anything resembling or equalling omniscience. This isn't even an argument.
It's literal. Jerec, literally gained knowledge into crap nobody in the galaxy had a clue about.

. . . Wut?

So, to recap: you haven't proven Vitiate is immortal, you haven't proven that Nathema is a greater nexus than the Valley of the Jedi (which isn't a dark side nexus), and you haven't proven why Vitiate's powerup would come close to Jerec's.

All you've done instead is lie and twist prolifically. I don't know why I expected anything else from the person who brought us the KOTORCG gloss holographic edition and the power of cinematic filters.

Ironic since you've complained endlessly about the quality of debates around here.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Actually yes, his death field on Ziost is stated to be a more powerful Force-based attack than any superweapon.

Where is this stated?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Per your logic, no being can be deemed immortal in Star Wars because nothing lasts forever.

Vitiate is identified as an immortal being in different sources:

The Emperor is one thousand years old. In a dark side ritual, he drained the life of his home planet, to achieve immortality.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

---

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

Under the guidance of the Emperor - the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years - they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

---

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion

---

Vitiate had achieved a reasonable degree of immortality by prolonging his corporeal existence for 1000 years until he decided to ditch it altogether because he acquired the capability to retain his presence outside his physical shell and the need to anchor it to any object - abilities beyond the domain of Sith Lords and even Sith spirits. Even Palpatine could not resist pull of the void as a spirit and needed a body to ensure his existence.

Point is that Vitiate would not seize to exist on his own - bodies or not. The only way to stop him was to destroy his spirit which was not possible without the use of his own devices against it.

The statements you are clinging to, imply immortality in the context of omnipotence. Not in a generic way.

All of which was retconned.

Thanks, Karpyshyn. And he literally tells you he needs a body to preserve his spirit, literally tells you he only plans to ditch his body to take the Outlander's, we're told his immortality isn't really immortality and requires him to consume planets, and finally, what does this have to do with anything again?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So, to recap: you haven't proven Vitiate is immortal, you haven't proven that Nathema is a greater nexus than the Valley of the Jedi (which isn't a dark side nexus), and you haven't proven why Vitiate's powerup would come close to Jerec's.

All you've done instead is lie and twist prolifically. I don't know why I expected anything else from the person who brought us the KOTORCG gloss holographic edition and the power of cinematic filters.

Ironic since you've complained endlessly about the quality of debates around here.

Somebody's butthurt.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where is this stated?

What that actually says is, "While we've had rumors of this kind of thing happening before, this is a clear example." It does not say what you think it says.

Considering the entire quote-I only quoted the relevant part- is referring to global cataclysms of all kinds, and then turns to how spooky planets ravaged by the dark side are, yeah somehow I doubt this is just a codex entry about space rumors reported on Holonet showbiz. They're actively wanking what Valk did and separating it from other, similar attacks. Simple.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What that actually says is, "While we've had rumors of this kind of thing happening before, this is a clear example." It does not say what you think it says.
AP's interpretation is BS like usual

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering the entire quote-I only quoted the relevant part- is referring to global cataclysms of all kinds, and then turns to how spooky planets ravaged by the dark side are, yeah somehow I doubt this is just a codex entry about space rumors reported on Holonet showbiz. They're actively wanking what Valk did and separating it from other, similar attacks. Simple.

We really doing this? Alright then.






Good so far.

Uh huh.


So basically....exactly what I said.


Maybe you can fool the idiocy of someone who doesn't actually play this game, but at the same time is too lazy to use Google, but not I, friend. Nice try, AP.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It's literal. Jerec, literally gained knowledge into crap nobody in the galaxy had a clue about.

No, it isn't. Had Jerec truly been all-knowing, he would have known he wasn't untouchable, a factually incorrect notion, and he wouldn't have let Katarn sever his connection to the Force while he literally did nothing to defend himself.

After years of witnessing cringeworthy interactions with AP, I think we can safely conclude she's a pathological liar.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, it isn't. Had Jerec truly been all-knowing, he would have known he wasn't untouchable, a factually incorrect notion, and he wouldn't have let Katarn sever his connection to the Force while he literally did nothing to defend himself.
Fair enough

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All of which was retconned.
WRONG.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And he literally tells you he needs a body to preserve his spirit, literally tells you he only plans to ditch his body to take the Outlander's,
Really?

Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free. (Tenebrae)

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
we're told his immortality isn't really immortality
If you are assuming omnipotence then no being in Star Wars became immortal in true sense of the word.

I see immortality in following ways:-

1. Ability to cheat death and extend life for indefinite period.
3. Omnipotence*

*Omnipotence is an impossibility.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
and requires him to consume planets, and finally, what does this have to do with anything again?
No, he consumed Ziost to replenish his strength. Hunger was a side-effect of his experiment on Medriaas.

Dude says he's made you into a vessel worthy of, "Holding and preserving spirit."

His father then goes on to tell you he needs to constantly consume life to keep his immortality, hence Ziost. Stop acting like a block of wood. No one with even only a fundamental understanding of English gets the words immortal and omnipotent mixed up. They don't even sound the same or have even remotely similar definitions. Stop deflecting.

Well I guess you'll have a source for that claim. I mean I know you don't, but I'll give you the chance to find one.


On a side note, I used to think KotET was ****ing retarded, but since it's destroyed almost every Vitishit argument you've ever made, it might actually be the greatest piece of Star Wars media to ever grace my computer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
After years of witnessing cringeworthy interactions with AP, I think we can safely conclude she's a pathological liar.

Aw, did I not conform to your personal view poing of everything? I'll be sure not to leave your ass so raging hot next time.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dude says he's made you into a vessel worthy of, "Holding and preserving spirit."
This is the statement:

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit." (Tenebrae)

The 'preserving' part = in this case.

Tenebrae's spirit had latched onto the Outlander for years and had been a source of great power whenever called upon. Sounds like a plot device instead of being a requirement because events of Shadow of Revan and Rise of the Emperor are part of BioWare canon and acknowledged in later expansions.

We have clearly seen Tenebrae making his presence known in Yavin IV, teleporting from Yavin IV to Ziost and subsequently devastating Ziost in intangible form. This event chain wouldn't be possible if Tenebrae could not retain his presence outside a body and/or could not resist pull of the void.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
His father then goes on to tell you he needs to constantly consume life to keep his immortality, hence Ziost.
His immortality, right?

Tenebrae also benefits from siphoning energies of his subjects; his growth in power.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Stop acting like a block of wood. No one with even only a fundamental understanding of English gets the words immortal and omnipotent mixed up. They don't even sound the same or have even remotely similar definitions. Stop deflecting.
Really?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x9h4t/if_you_were_an_immortal_omnipotent_being_what/

Tenebrae's ability to prolong his corporeal existence for indefinite period and his ability to cheat corporeal death on top of it, implies immortality.

How would you describe him otherwise?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well I guess you'll have a source for that claim. I mean I know you don't, but I'll give you the chance to find one.
Tenebrae's hunger is implied to be a by-product of his immortality condition which in turn is the outcome of his NATHEMA experiment, and his course-of-action was to siphon the energy of his subjects in order to satiate it.

You can also look at the case of Darth Nihilus; his hunger was a by-product of his Wound condition and his course-of-action was to siphon the energy of his subjects in order to satiate it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
On a side note, I used to think KotET was ****ing retarded, but since it's destroyed almost every Vitishit argument you've ever made, it might actually be the greatest piece of Star Wars media to ever grace my computer.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Shadow of Revan and Rise of the Emperor are part of the lore. See above.

Bump.

1. Valkorion
2. Stalemate

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Valkorion
2. Stalemate Based on?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Valkorion
2. Stalemate

What a fossil lol

Valk has better feats, he wins.

On my phone: Az, Ellimist, or ILS: could one of you paraphrase the strongest arguments as to why ROTS Sidious is above Valkorion? Might as well turn this into the meat and potatoes.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
On my phone: Az, Ellimist, or ILS: could one of you paraphrase the strongest arguments as to why ROTS Sidious is above Valkorion? Might as well turn this into the meat and potatoes.

To avoid turning this into a metadebate, for the sake of the argument I'll now agree that Valkorion isn't a Sith nor a full darksider.

He still loses to this iteration of Sheev, though. The Shadow has the following going for him:

Being only mere months away from his Byss feat, which is by all accounts superior to Vitiate's stunt on Ziost (can elaborate later)
Being powerful enough in the Force to turn the entire galaxy into a dark side nexus, or rather, being that galaxy-wide dark side nexus himself, as contrasted with Vitiate only managing to tilt half the galaxy to the dark side over the course of 300 years (if we're being generous to him)
(arguably) TP'ing the entire Jedi Order which resulted in the clouding their Force sight
Scaling from Plagueis, who can outwill the Force and TP the entire galaxy (quadrillions of beings)
Being relativistic to RotJ Sheev, who can dominate the Imperial Military (tens of trillions of beings)
Having Force lightning that can bend lightsaber blades, making it more potent than lightsaber plasma and thus able to penetrate Valk's defences (who has not shown anything beyond blocking standard lightsaber strikes)
Being able to casually protect himself from attacks more intense than lightsaber plasma, meaning any of Valk's attacks will be utterly impotent (Valk has not shown offensive output beyond or even on the level of a lightsaber blade)
Being fast enough to speedblitz Yoda with his lightning, meaning he'd be able to blitz the infinitely inferior combatant in Valk as well and one-shot him (a Valk with no active defences has been proven vulnerable to blaster bolts)
Being a far more tactically aware and combatively capable individual in general


All in all, Valk's pretty thoroughly outclassed here.

"The lack of understanding the context, in your statements, disturbs me."
-Freedon Nadd

Originally posted by Azronger
To avoid turning this into a metadebate, for the sake of the argument I'll now agree that Valkorion isn't a Sith nor a full darksider.

He still loses to this iteration of Sheev, though. The Shadow has the following going for him:

Being only mere months away from his Byss feat, which is by all accounts superior to Vitiate's stunt on Ziost (can elaborate later)
Being powerful enough in the Force to turn the entire galaxy into a dark side nexus, or rather, being that galaxy-wide dark side nexus himself, as contrasted with Vitiate only managing to tilt half the galaxy to the dark side over the course of 300 years (if we're being generous to him)
(arguably) TP'ing the entire Jedi Order which resulted in the clouding their Force sight
Scaling from Plagueis, who can outwill the Force and TP the entire galaxy (quadrillions of beings)
Being relativistic to RotJ Sheev, who can dominate the Imperial Military (tens of trillions of beings)
Having Force lightning that can bend lightsaber blades, making it more potent than lightsaber plasma and thus able to penetrate Valk's defences (who has not shown anything beyond blocking standard lightsaber strikes)
Being able to casually protect himself from attacks more intense than lightsaber plasma, meaning any of Valk's attacks will be utterly impotent (Valk has not shown offensive output beyond or even on the level of a lightsaber blade)
Being fast enough to speedblitz Yoda with his lightning, meaning he'd be able to blitz the infinitely inferior combatant in Valk as well and one-shot him (a Valk with no active defences has been proven vulnerable to blaster bolts)
Being a far more tactically aware and combatively capable individual in general


All in all, Valk's pretty thoroughly outclassed here.
Good points.


BTW How fast is Valkorion in combat?

How are those good points when they can be easily countered?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
How are those good points when they can be easily countered? Because you're a retard is the answer.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
How are those good points when they can be easily countered?
You can do it?

Originally posted by ILS
Because you're a retard is the answer.

I am retarded because those points can be easily countered? Ok.

Sorry, but I don't let myself guided by feelings for characters as you do. Half of what he said makes no sense and you would know it if you actually analyzed his statements instead of mocking a member. Seriously, what's your problem, man!? Everyone who doesn't meet your points of view is a retard?

Originally posted by Stigma
You can do it?

It seems Ancient Power wants to do it.

Neither of these characters are my favorite. But these points in Sidious' favor are just lacking context. Same is for some quotes regarding Valkorion.

Though, at least, S_w LeGeNd is a decent member and does not call you retard because you disagree with his points of view about x, y or z event or character.

No, just you.

Btw Nadd, I have no clue what you're saying since I have you on ignore. Responding to me is pointless; no need to waste your time.

Originally posted by Stigma
Good points.


BTW How fast is Valkorion in combat?

He scales nigh-infinitely from someone who could percieve FTL(pseudomotion). The idea that he's slow or inept isn't so much based on actual inability but on ignoring the context of his fights.

Then again, the entire speedblitz argument is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Sorry, but I don't let myself guided by feelings for characters as you do.

Oh the irony.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He scales nigh-infinitely from someone who could percieve FTL(pseudomotion).

MagnaGuards are lightspeed; Maul blitzed them; a holding back Sidious blitzed Maul. Thank you, come again.

Did you just say lightspeed > FTL? Kek.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you just say lightspeed > FTL? Kek.

I said MagnaGuards are lightspeed, and Maul has blitzed six, therefore Maul is MFTL. And Sidious blitzed him, therefor Sidious is MFTL++.

Learn how to read, please.

AP not very quick

Lmfao.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and take Magnaguards being lightspeed as gospel and not at all full of plotholes. Them being lightspeed is irrelevant, when Leneer percieves psuedo-motion as nigh slow-motion. There's a gap there that's so big that Maul's feat, assuming it's actually even reliable, is laughably lower on the scale.

Oh and just so you know, Leneer's sub-EoD!Malgus.

But if you like fallacious speed feat wars, go right ahead. I'll be waiting for you and your friends when actual arguments are going to be utilised.

>Magnaguard accolade must be hyperbole
>Leener feat is totes 100% legit tho!!!44!

Never change AP...

That isn't what I said at all.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and take Magnaguards being lightspeed as gospel and not at all full of plotholes.

You lose all credibility when you say Aryn's feat is totes and legit and not filled with plotholes, but the MG's statement is.

Your entire arguments hinge on stretching sh!t beyond proportion, lying and performing ludicrous double standards. Now I'll await your response, which will be akin to: "Heergh!lmfao PT BRIGADERS SUCK! U SUCK! I iz da best! Listen to me! Also wut is gender?"

I don't think you're a bad guy, AP, I just don't get why you keep regurgitating the same arguments I don't even think you believe in.

Can AP please explain why ftl is > mftl?

This argument lost all credibility the moment Sheevites(Stigma pretending to be impartial) claimed he can speedblitz Valkorion.

You going on your credibility rant against me is pure amusement given that.

Though really, why do you assume I'd afford the effort to make better arguments. When Az invented a scapegoat designed to avoid debating with me, and then gave the other brigadiers a laughable excuse to do the same. Meanwhile the arguments they claim are so retarded are literally rehashes of their own claims but with equally absurd TOR wank in use.

You know what's really funny, though? That this place runs on an arbitrary system of scaling from cherrypicked feats and purposefully context-less accolades. In-combat feats rule elsewhere, I wonder why that's not the case here, like every other forum of its kind.

Originally posted by ILS
No, just you.



I had a great teacher. The name is ILS.

Originally posted by MythLord
Oh the irony.

There is no irony here. I do have favorite characters(e.g: Freedon Nadd), but I am aware that he has weaknesses and superiors in combat.

And I don't think there is any character that moves at LS or FTLS literally. I think the writer just wants to say that their characters are very fast.

Let's run down the checklist shall we:
Originally posted by MythLord
"Heergh!lmfao PT BRIGADERS SUCK! U SUCK! I iz da best! Listen to me! Also wut is gender?"
Originally posted by AncientPower
This argument lost all credibility the moment Sheevites(Stigma pretending to be impartial) claimed he can speedblitz Valkorion.
PT BRIGADERS SUCK! check.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You going on your credibility rant against me is pure amusement given that.
U SUCK! check

Originally posted by AncientPower
Though really, why do you assume I'd afford the effort to make better arguments. When Az invented a scapegoat designed to avoid debating with me, and then gave the other brigadiers a laughable excuse to do the same. Meanwhile the arguments they claim are so retarded are literally rehashes of their own claims but with equally absurd TOR wank in use.
I iz da best check

Originally posted by AncientPower
You know what's really funny, though? That this place runs on an arbitrary system of scaling from cherrypicked feats and purposefully context-less accolades. In-combat feats rule elsewhere, I wonder why that's not the case here, like every other forum of its kind.
Heergh! check.

Good show.

Nah, you're actually kinda just deluding yourself, really. You happily standby and watch the shitshow your PT brigade friends put on but if I mock them for it by seeing them insult their own logic, then you've got to make your little PSA.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o7TKxbLWOD35YxySc/giphy.gif

Just as I imagined.

Was this all also a part of your machinations to make us seem like fools, AP? Did you play me like a fiddle?

'Twas I naught but a puppet in your grand schemes?

I like how wolf is a PT wanker now despite mostly being interested in Bane, NJO and some obscure characters.

AP the type of creature to say you're alt right because you're only centre-left.

Originally posted by Azronger
To avoid turning this into a metadebate, for the sake of the argument I'll now agree that Valkorion isn't a Sith nor a full darksider.

He still loses to this iteration of Sheev, though. The Shadow has the following going for him:

Being only mere months away from his Byss feat, which is by all accounts superior to Vitiate's stunt on Ziost (can elaborate later)
Being powerful enough in the Force to turn the entire galaxy into a dark side nexus, or rather, being that galaxy-wide dark side nexus himself, as contrasted with Vitiate only managing to tilt half the galaxy to the dark side over the course of 300 years (if we're being generous to him)
(arguably) TP'ing the entire Jedi Order which resulted in the clouding their Force sight
Scaling from Plagueis, who can outwill the Force and TP the entire galaxy (quadrillions of beings)
Being relativistic to RotJ Sheev, who can dominate the Imperial Military (tens of trillions of beings)
Having Force lightning that can bend lightsaber blades, making it more potent than lightsaber plasma and thus able to penetrate Valk's defences (who has not shown anything beyond blocking standard lightsaber strikes)
Being able to casually protect himself from attacks more intense than lightsaber plasma, meaning any of Valk's attacks will be utterly impotent (Valk has not shown offensive output beyond or even on the level of a lightsaber blade)
Being fast enough to speedblitz Yoda with his lightning, meaning he'd be able to blitz the infinitely inferior combatant in Valk as well and one-shot him (a Valk with no active defences has been proven vulnerable to blaster bolts)
Being a far more tactically aware and combatively capable individual in general


All in all, Valk's pretty thoroughly outclassed here.

Lusankya is also only a few years at most after RotS.

Basically by RotS Sidious soundly beats Valkorion in:

- Accolades
- Powerscaling
- Cosmic power
- Telekinesis
- Force lightning
- Speed
- Close quarters
- General combat ability

The only areas he doesn't have a direct superiority in are combat sorcery and large-scale destructive feats, but the former we can infer from evidence and powerscaling while the latter isn't really an edge for Valkorion since his one demonstration of it is under convenient nexus/ritual-y circumstances.

Originally posted by Azronger
(a Valk with no active defences has been proven vulnerable to blaster bolts)


Hm? Just one thing, but why is this a slight against him? Wouldn't this apply to just about anyone who isn't ready?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm? Just one thing, but why is this a slight against him? Wouldn't this apply to just about anyone who isn't ready?

The point wasn't to compare Sidious and Valkorion's durability, but rather to demonstrate that Valkorion would be vulnerable to Palpatine's blitz.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point wasn't to compare Sidious and Valkorion's durability, but rather to demonstrate that Valkorion would be vulnerable to Palpatine's blitz.

Ah, fair enough then. Excuse, long day at work.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lusankya is also only a few years at most after RotS.

Basically by RotS Sidious soundly beats Valkorion in:

- Accolades
- Powerscaling
- Cosmic power
- Telekinesis
- Force lightning
- Speed
- Close quarters
- General combat ability

The only areas he doesn't have a direct superiority in are combat sorcery and large-scale destructive feats, but the former we can infer from evidence and powerscaling while the latter isn't really an edge for Valkorion since his one demonstration of it is under convenient nexus/ritual-y circumstances.

What combat sorcery feats does Valk have that haven't been conducted under nebulous circumstances? Also, I struggle to see how he has an edge in "large-scale and destructive feats" when he's always required rituals to pull them off, as you said. Sheev at this point can create Force Storms to devastate entire fleets, and even though admittedly he can't control them at this point, it's still a better feat of pure destructive capabily than anything Valkorion has.

Originally posted by Azronger
What combat sorcery feats does Valk have that haven't been conducted under nebulous circumstances? Also, I struggle to see how he has an edge in "large-scale and destructive feats" when he's always required rituals to pull them off, as you said. Sheev at this point can create Force Storms to devastate entire fleets, and even though admittedly he can't control them at this point, it's still a better feat of pure destructive capabily than anything Valkorion has.

Yeah all of Valkorion's alleged advantages are under dubious, amped conditions.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah all of Valkorion's alleged advantages are under dubious, amped conditions.

So they're not advantages at all.

Originally posted by Azronger
So they're not advantages at all.

I said Sidious doesn't have direct superiority in those categories, because by RotS he doesn't use sorcery much nor has he done planet-busting, but we can infer he can do both from powerscaling (people like Ventress using powerful sorcery) and indirect sources (like Palpatine being able to do Force Storms by RotS).

Doctor Fate?

Sithisis isn't even part of the Legends' timeline, mate, it is Infinities. Not to mention that the entire visual art is just describing how Palpatine hid his true self and managed to keep it that way and also block the sight of the Jedi through his periodic Sith rituals. He didn't even summon any Sith ghosts. Those ghosts are just for aesthetic purposes to show Sidious' goal to best the Jedi from within by reaching closer to the Grand Plan and the nature of the dark side itself.

Even if you take it literary, the only way he achieved that purpose/feats was through that Sith crystal. That crystal magnified his raw power in the Force.

Tenebrae as a child of ten years, was capable of destroying, dominating and stripping Lord Dramath of his power:





Remember, Lord Dramath's mad spirit was strong enough to aid the Outlander in fighting and defeating Vaylin and Arcann:



Tenebrae grows more powerful over a century after this:





After a century, Vitiate enacts the Ritual of Nathema, becoming massively more powerful by absorbing the power of some of the Empire's most powerful Sith Lords:







The Emperor continues growing ever more powerful after this:



He gets vastly more powerful after this, which makes you wonder how Arcann, Vaylin and the Outlander compare to Valkorion, short answer is that they don't. He easily dominates their minds and can simultaneously dominate them all with the Force in mid-combat:

/watch?v=5u0qwA5XiQM

But then we have to consider just how powerful the likes of Arcann, the least powerful one here, really is. Let's start with the kind of power the Protags have:

The Wrath:











As powerful as Fulminiss is, he's not even as powerful as Darth Baras, decades before Baras' prime.



Yet Darth Baras is ruined by the Empire's Wrath:





The Barsen'thor:

She fights and defeats Lord Vivicar who is siphoning the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters:





https://i.imgur.com/EYTrovi_d.jpg

The Barsen'thor at this point has been weakened by weilding a Shielding technique six times, a technique that saps your life to prevent corruption in another and has killed those too weak to survive it.

Even more powerful than Vivicar is the First Son of the Emperor:



Who casually hid in plain sight amongst the Jedi Council for decades whilst constantly concealing hundreds of his brothers and sisters:



A feat laughably beyond Darth Zannah's:



The Barsen'thor defeats the First Son outright:





Even ragdolling him after he blocks his lightsaber strikes with a Force barrier, an inferior defense to Tutaminis:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3909367-9116049058-vHxSl.gif

When the First Son was defeated, the Children were revealed to the Jedi:



Both the Wrath and the Barsen'thor grew far more powerful between Act III of their respective stories, and the first time the Outlander fights Arcann years later in KOTFE. Yet Arcann, regardless of who the Outlander was, utterly stomps them in combat:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873049-1766022748-zhOaT.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873077-5277011404-3jkJE.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/EboxKs7MHNpba/source.gif

Tenebrae at ten utterly raped Dramath who can contend with Arcann and Vaylin after going mad as a spirit trapped in a holocron for a millennium. Arcann who scales massively above the likes of the First Son, Vivicar, Baras, Fulminiss or the Protags. Tenebrae proves the same thing again as a spirit over a millennia of power growth that would've repeatedly multiplied, not only being capable of raping somebody like Dramath but raping and dominating the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann simultaneously, whilst the spirits of Senya, Revan, Marr and Satele Shan were helping. The only reason Valkorion lost was a holocron and the Outlander's will.

Yeah, Tenebrae wins.

YouTube hates me so here's the link:

https://youtu.be/5u0qwA5XiQM

Literally none of that proves he's beyond Darth Sidious, who was literally a f*cking galaxy-wide dark side nexus lmfao.

LMAO.

Nothing supports that but massive stretching. Though here's the problem, you talk about galaxy scale effects and yet those who are insignificant next to Tenebrae had the power to terraform planets and turn over a trillion people incurably insane, passively.

Your argument is solely based on an absence of evidence argument. I'm making genuine in-combat feats arguments that indicate a level of power for ten year old Tenebrae that lesser-to-mid tier Banite Sith wouldn't accomplish. The level of sheer scaling that Tenebrae gets AT TEN YEARS OLD, over city busters and people with galaxy-wide concealment feats, is actually so beyond ridiculous that it's as insurmountable as his power is described to be.

Tenebrae @ 10 >> Dramath ~ Arcann >> KOTFE ACT VIII Outlander > KOTFE ACT V Outlander > KOTFE ACT 3 Outlander > SoR Outlander > Dread War Outlander > Makeb Outlander > Ilum Outlander > Act III Outlander >> Darth Baras >> Fulminiss OR First Son > Vivicar

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMAO.

Nothing supports that but massive stretching. Though here's the problem, you talk about galaxy scale effects and yet those who are insignificant next to Tenebrae had the power to terraform planets and turn over a trillion people incurably insane, passively.




So your rebuttal to Palpatine shrouding a galaxy...is others affecting planets? Wut?

All of Vitiate's esoteric rituals that he expended "great energy" on over the course of a thousand years created effects that were minuscule next to Palpatine appearing briefly as a hologram lmfao.



*Proceeds to brag about 10 year old Tenebrae killing his parents with the Force while Palpatine was hiding his powers* You said something about absence of evidence?

Palpatine was a galaxy-wide nexus. Vitiate wasn't.

Palpatine's presence warranted direct intervention from the Force. Vitiate's didn't.

Palpatine in a month of meditating on an island shifted the balance of the Force to the dark side against the collective might of the entire Jedi Order. Vitiate couldn't do that, and indeed throughout TOR the balance of the Force was constantly fluctuating between light and dark.

Palpatine is clearly superior by mid-Plagueis novel, let alone RotS, lmao.



I love how you ignore the part where Dramath was also able to hurt Valkorion in the same way he could hurt Vaylin and co.



I'm much more impressed with 17 year old Palpatine shielding himself from Plagueis's TP.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


So your rebuttal to Palpatine shrouding a galaxy...is others affecting planets? Wut?

All of Vitiate's esoteric rituals that he expended "great energy" on over the course of a thousand years created effects that were minuscule next to Palpatine appearing briefly as a hologram lmfao.

*Proceeds to brag about 10 year old Tenebrae killing his parents with the Force while Palpatine was hiding his powers* You said something about absence of evidence?

Palpatine was a galaxy-wide nexus. Vitiate wasn't.

Palpatine's presence warranted direct intervention from the Force. Vitiate's didn't.

Palpatine in a month of meditating on an island shifted the balance of the Force to the dark side against the collective might of the entire Jedi Order. Vitiate couldn't do that, and indeed throughout TOR the balance of the Force was constantly fluctuating between light and dark.

Palpatine is clearly superior by mid-Plagueis novel, let alone RotS, lmao.

The First Son with a miniscule fraction of the Emperor's power was concealing himself and hundreds of Children of the Emperor from Jedi actively searching to uncover them. When the First Son died, the dark side was literally stated to be screaming with the power of the other Children. This was 'galaxy-wide' too.

Multiple planets across the galaxy, at the same time, but Coruscant's the most impressive.

But I'd appreciate it if you would stop trying to equate what Plagueis and Sidious combined into a single entity after months of intense meditation channeling their full power with what they can individually do. Thanks.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you ignore the part where Dramath was also able to hurt Valkorion in the same way he could hurt Vaylin and co.

I love how you think Dramath launching an all-out suicide attack on Valkorion and merely damaging his armor, is impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm much more impressed with 17 year old Palpatine shielding himself from Plagueis's TP.

Yeah, pretty impressive for a seventeen year old who'd already began harnessing his powers. Totally comparable to a ten year old who'd barely started touching his power in the last few years.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Tenebrae @ 10 >> Dramath ~ Arcann

And of course, we know Arcann was capable of deflecting Valkorion's storm for a considerable amount of time. So Tenebrae @ 10 >/~ Valk > Dramath ~ Arcann. What I'm getting from this is that Vitiate literally didn't progress in power since he was 10. Good show, good show.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The First Son with a miniscule fraction of the Emperor's power was concealing himself and hundreds of Children of the Emperor from Jedi actively searching to uncover them.

So...trainee Zannah tier? Not sure how hiding a few hundred people compares to distorting the abilities of ten thousand Jedi including Yoda and Mace Windu.



lolwut, that doesn't compare to Sidious's presence literally being a galaxy-wide nexus. Not all "galaxy-wide" feats are created equal, you know. Valkorion has never matched Palpatine in this category, despite having more time, more prep, and more nexuses.




*yawn* Not Palpatine tier. See above.



Given that Palpatine alone does even more than that by his sheer presence by the chronological end of the Plagueis novel, I think it's fine. But nice going trying to lowball it because he does "intense meditation" for a month while allowing Valkorion's feats done with rituals and prep on nexuses over hundreds of years.



Given that Galen Marek's all-out suicide attack on Palpatine doesn't even phase him or dirty his robes, it really is.



Lol so you're welcome to explain why a less impressive feat as a 10 year old is more or less potent than a far more impressive feat as a 17 year old right after you were talking about absence of evidence and all.

Since we've clearly established that Palpatine has greater cosmic feats, you're welcome to now explain where Valkorion makes up for this against Sidious:

bending lightsaber blades
defeating Grandmaster Yoda who was ragdolling several hundred meter long droid transport ships
burying a 17 km long super star destroyer in the middle of Coruscant while mind-wiping all witnesses

*sighs*

AP's confusing an absence of evidence as an excuse not to meet the burden of proof.

Stop responding to AP, Ell. Jesus Christ. facepalm

Also, the Lusankya is 19 km long.

Valkorion wasn't even concerned with the Jedi to make use of galaxy-wide rituals and stuff like that. He had other goals. Also, Valkorion has the power of an entire planet in him. It's obviously that TK'ing things like Lusankya wouldn't be a problem to him. Also the Lusankya feat doesn't mean he used TK. There is just a source that states Palpatine hid it by using his dark side powers(ergo, Mind Probe)

On top of that, those lightning storms on Dromund Kaas are continously manifesting. And Vitiate had no intention to create them with his experiments: they were just side-effects. Also, they are planetary-wide, not only appearing on some portions of the planet. When the First Son died with the dark side literally screaming(it was due to his mere 'death', there was no intense meditation or some sort of Sith rituals)
First Son's death would be similar to Darth Plagueis' depiction of his death(if you take 'to shake the stars themselves' literally)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So...trainee Zannah tier? Not sure how hiding a few hundred people compares to distorting the abilities of ten thousand Jedi including Yoda and Mace Windu.

I've proven that Zannah was actually struggling to do the same for herself for a few hours, at best. But instead of actually replying to the post, you continued with 'but galaxy feats!"

Also, dark Revan's mere existence causing the cosmic Force to exist everywhere and nowhere as a persistent cyst in the fabric of the galaxy, causing the Force to utterly shit itself and given Force visions to everyone and their grandma to prevent his continued growth in power and plan for Yavin IV, is very much comparable.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lolwut, that doesn't compare to Sidious's presence literally being a galaxy-wide nexus. Not all "galaxy-wide" feats are created equal, you know. Valkorion has never matched Palpatine in this category, despite having more time, more prep, and more nexuses.

Valkorion's distant inferiors have achieved similar feats, actually. Not that Valkorion, who exists as an embodiment of the void of annihilation that destroyed the Force in and all life of the planet of Nathema, which is the non-existence of the Force, is going to positively effect the dark side in any way. Much like Nihilus, he's an aberration of the dark side that only depletes it's energy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
*yawn* Not Palpatine tier. See above.

Palpatine has never caused a planet to turn into a hellacious dark side world passively. Plagueis comes kinda close, but actual terraforming of a world? Nah.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given that Palpatine alone does even more than that by his sheer presence by the chronological end of the Plagueis novel, I think it's fine. But nice going trying to lowball it because he does "intense meditation" for a month while allowing Valkorion's feats done with rituals and prep on nexuses over hundreds of years.

Er, not really.

I love how you think planning something and actual prep are the same thing. I guess the entire Banite line had massive prep.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given that Galen Marek's all-out suicide attack on Palpatine doesn't even phase him or dirty his robes, it really is.

I like how you have to revert to comparing TFU Sheev with Valkorion's spirit. Who was getting a dent in his armor.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol so you're welcome to explain why a less impressive feat as a 10 year old is more or less potent than a far more impressive feat as a 17 year old right after you were talking about absence of evidence and all.

How exactly is overpowering, dominating the mind of, stripping the Force of, and rending the spirit of an evidently extremely powerful Force user, comparable to resisting telepathy? Fvcking hell.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since we've clearly established that Palpatine has greater cosmic feats.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're welcome to now explain where Valkorion makes up for this against Sidious:

I'm sure these will all be actual combat feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

bending lightsaber blades
defeating Grandmaster Yoda who was ragdolling several hundred meter long droid transport ships
burying a 17 km long super star destroyer in the middle of Coruscant while mind-wiping all witnesses


1.This isn't impressive, when the First Son's telekinesis destroyed Barsen'thor's lightsaber. In fact Revan dismisses the idea of using a lightsaber at all to deflect Vitiate's lightning and goes for Tutaminis.
2.I'll take simultaneously suppressing the incredible powers of Vaylin, dominating the Dread Masters, dominating the First Son, controlling hundreds of his extremely powerful Children, breaking the power of Revan, stalemating Sel-Makor; another world terraforming dark side entity, dominating the four most powerful Jedi in the galaxy 'easily', and surviving physical death. Then still having the power to fuel a galactic destruction scale ritual whilst only requiring the aid of billions of deaths as opposed to the aid of Darth Plagueis; as confirmed by Hall Hood, whilst managing everything I just said at the same time.
3.Probably not that far above Nihilus, tbh. Who is evidently beneath Post-Nathema ritual Vitiate.

Originally posted by MythLord
And of course, we know Arcann was capable of deflecting Valkorion's storm for a considerable amount of time. So Tenebrae @ 10 >/~ Valk > Dramath ~ Arcann. What I'm getting from this is that Vitiate literally didn't progress in power since he was 10. Good show, good show.

The spirit of Valkorion, who is launching attacks out of an inadequate host, with the most immediate of attacks. That's what you meant to say, right? Because as soon as he ramps up the power of his lightning, he blasts Arcann into unconsciousness.