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Les go.

Valkorion, again.

Vitiate, not close.

got all dese rituals and valk still cant manipulate midichlorians

Plagueis seems to be a more impressive force user based on his grandscale feats though it's certainly arguable. That said, Plagueis's comparable variety/hax, especially mediclhorian manipulation which was able to sustain Plagueis for a while vs TPM Sidious's lighting, in addition to his use of a saber give him a decisive advantage as a combatant.

Valkorion most likely.

Plags.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Plagueis seems to be a more impressive force user based on his grandscale feats though it's certainly arguable. That said, Plagueis's comparable variety/hax, especially mediclhorian manipulation which was able to sustain Plagueis for a while vs TPM Sidious's lighting, in addition to his use of a saber give him a decisive advantage as a combatant. Plagueis sustaining himself against Sidious' lightning with midichlorians is even more impressive when you consider how drunk Plagueis was, and the fact that he wasn't even actively defending himself.

That said, I'm not totally sure whether Plagueis would win here.

Originally posted by ILS
got all dese rituals and valk still cant manipulate midichlorians

Yup, because he's inferior.

Plagueis got dis. Even if Valkorion can beat him in the Force, Plagueis has a saber.

Valkorion, for sure.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Valkorion dies, for sure.

This is more accurate. Not saying it's absolutely accurate, but far more accurate than the original statement.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yup, because he's inferior.

Plagueis got dis. Even if Valkorion can beat him in the Force, Plagueis has a saber.

Vitiate was just gonna Nathema the galaxy via a ritual, a feat that shows a nigh- unprecidented understanding and knowledge in the Force - one that exceeds, or even at the very bed rock of lowball, match, manipulating Midichlorians in fact.

Valk, definitely.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Plagueis got dis. Even if Valkorion can beat him in the Force, Plagueis has a saber.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111167681/6031061-aids-tier.jpg

Valkorian.

SWTOR Vitiate would win, let alone Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion, again.

Valk stomps

Originally posted by ILS
got all dese rituals and valk still cant manipulate midichlorians

It took Plagueis experimentations/prep

Lets be fair

Who am I kidding Valk sucks cocks

Originally posted by carthage
It took Plagueis experimentations/prep

Lets be fair

Who am I kidding Valk sucks cocks But eventually he learned how to do it without external aid, as we saw when Sidious was trying to ambush him with lightning. He kept his body intact through it, while piss drunk.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vitiate was just gonna Nathema the galaxy via a ritual, a feat that shows a nigh- unprecidented understanding and knowledge in the Force - one that exceeds, or even at the very bed rock of lowball, match, manipulating Midichlorians in fact.

A ritual! How fantastic! Not applicable in a 1v1.

Plagueis one-shots.

Plagueis, definitely.

Plagueis might stomp

Reasons for Plagueis winning against/stomping Valkorion, tbh?

Him being >> Tenebrous' master, and being the most powerful Sith ever yeah.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
A ritual! How fantastic! Not applicable in a 1v1.
Plagueis's best feats are also rituals so dismissing rituals and grandscale showings isn't going to end well for Plagueis here.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Him being >> Tenebrous' master, and being the most powerful Sith ever yeah.
Being able to actually use a lightsaber and not be purely dependent on force abilities helps too.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Plagueis's best feats are also rituals so dismissing rituals and grandscale showings isn't going to end well for Plagueis here.

Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.

Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.

Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.

Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.

Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.

Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.

Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.
Consuming the Galaxy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> times a few trillion above Anakin.

You can't compare it even, if it took much less time.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
A ritual! How fantastic! Not applicable in a 1v1.


Still conveys a near unparalleled understanding and mastery in the Force if he was going to consume it entirely.

Any of Plagueis "galactic" feats are far outstripped, leaving us to look at actual combative showings/implied power, something, Plagueis stands absolutely zero shot at beating Valk at.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.

Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.

Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.

Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.
1. Same goes for Vitiate creating an Anakin-type being with the sole existential purpose of taking him down, per Revan -- a feat which took a multi-month ritual for Plagueis at his prime as well as a Sidious who was rapidly approaching him in power to accomplish; nevermind the aid of the Force itself. I mean, it's unfair to Plagueis to even compare their feats lol. (Also how the hell is RotS Sidious a Valkorion+ being?)

2. See above. Also, destroying the galaxy (and, by extension, the Force) is so hilariously beyond just pissing it off enough to spawn Anakin that I'm honestly amazed you're not trolling here.

3. Rituals are a reflection of one's power, understanding, willpower and overall mastery of the Force. The Valkorion defenders here aren't saying that Valkorion wins by employing rituals in a 1v1 - they're saying he'd win because the scale of the rituals he's powerful enough to perform are far beyond anything Plagueis can even hope to do; and thus Vitiate is more powerful.

4. He's not at all comparable in his Force abilities, lol, and neither is he making a 'mockery' of a being that powerful with as crude a weapon as a lightsaber. Nor will his strength help him much against a being who's blocking lightsabers with waves of his hand.

imagine if vitiate successfully set off his big ritual and it just didn't work.

Originally posted by slayne
1. Same goes for Vitiate creating an Anakin-type being with the sole existential purpose of taking him down, per Revan -- a feat which took a multi-month ritual for Plagueis at his prime as well as a Sidious who was rapidly approaching him in power to accomplish; nevermind the aid of the Force itself. I mean, it's unfair to Plagueis to even compare their feats lol. (Also how the hell is RotS Sidious a Valkorion+ being?)

2. See above. Also, destroying the galaxy (and, by extension, the Force) is so hilariously beyond just pissing it off enough to spawn Anakin that I'm honestly amazed you're not trolling here.

3. Rituals are a reflection of one's power, understanding, willpower and overall mastery of the Force. The Valkorion defenders here aren't saying that Valkorion wins by employing rituals in a 1v1 - they're saying he'd win because the scale of the rituals he's powerful enough to perform are far beyond anything Plagueis can even hope to do; and thus Vitiate is more powerful.

4. He's not at all comparable in his Force abilities, lol, and neither is he making a 'mockery' of a being that powerful with as crude a weapon as a lightsaber. Nor will his strength help him much against a being who's blocking lightsabers with waves of his hand.
This whole argument is twisted so pathetically out of proportion:
1. The Hot is not an "Anakin like being", rotflmao. I like this attempt to copy off what Plagueis and Sidious did, but it is a terrible excuse of an argument. There was no "prophecy" regarding a "Chosen One" of the Jedi in "history" who would completely "bring" balance to the force, who would have the highest potential of anyone ever in Star Wars history, who would literally have a potential so high, he could control the "deities of the force" itself, when at maximum power.

Literally all that is said is that a Jedi would defeat Vitiate one day. Lol, at that being even remotely compared to Anakin.

Even if you do wish to take this "non-existent" argument literally, no, Vitiate required more than 12 centuries for a person to even challenge him and he had to be weakened for the person to even come close to touching him, whereas Plagueis and Sidious required only months to create a person who had potential shitting on either of their's. So yeah, any way you look, Plagueis stomps on Vitiate in this category.

Not to mention, there is a clear link between Plagueis and Sidious attempting to dominate the force in its entirety itself, succeeding and shifting the force itself throughout the galaxy, turning the entire galaxy into a DS Nexus, and the "force" itself, churning out a being who was literally a demigod of sorts, to bring balance to the force. There is absolutely nothing that indicates the HoT fulfilling any of these criteria, so stop peddling this argument from now on.

2. Another heavily flawed argument.

Vitiate required literally "centuries" of preparation for him to even "begin" the ritual, and then he would require simultaneous deaths of billions to accomplish.

Yeah, that's a low showing. Nothing even remotely comparable to any of Plagueis's given him requiring "centuries" of preparation to even attempt it, or that he would do it "eventually"( he evidently failed at even this, lol). Best of all, Valkorion's biggest showing of power is draining Ziost.

3. The scale of what Plagueis attempted and actually pulled off, was "infinitely" above the scale of what Valkorion did, because what he and Sidious did in just "months" of meditation spanned and affected the entire "galaxy".

Whereas Vitiate needs centuries to even move towards accomplishing something like that, absolutely none of his rituals have actually "accomplished" anything even infinitesimally close to that.

4. Yeah, he is not comparable. He is just better, and it is not even close. I know that it is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is so.

Red herrings everywhere.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
imagine if vitiate successfully set off his big ritual and it just didn't work.

Well, per the Revan novel, Scrouges visions were actual possible futures and not just random visions. The ritual was absolutely within Vitiate capabilities to pull it off, had the Champion of Light not put an end to his plans.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
This whole argument is twisted so pathetically out of proportion:
1. The Hot is not an "Anakin like being", rotflmao. I like this attempt to copy off what Plagueis and Sidious did, but it is a terrible excuse of an argument. There was no "prophecy" regarding a "Chosen One" of the Jedi in "history" who would completely "bring" balance to the force, who would have the highest potential of anyone ever in Star Wars history, who would literally have a potential so high, he could control the "deities of the force" itself, when at maximum power.

Literally all that is said is that a Jedi would defeat Vitiate one day. Lol, at that being even remotely compared to Anakin.

Even if you do wish to take this "non-existent" argument literally, no, Vitiate required more than 12 centuries for a person to even challenge him and he had to be weakened for the person to even come close to touching him, whereas Plagueis and Sidious required only months to create a person who had potential shitting on either of their's. So yeah, any way you look, Plagueis stomps on Vitiate in this category.

Not to mention, there is a clear link between Plagueis and Sidious attempting to dominate the force in its entirety itself, succeeding and shifting the force itself throughout the galaxy, turning the entire galaxy into a DS Nexus, and the "force" itself, churning out a being who was literally a demigod of sorts, to bring balance to the force. There is absolutely nothing that indicates the HoT fulfilling any of these criteria, so stop peddling this argument from now on.

2. Another heavily flawed argument.

Vitiate required literally "centuries" of preparation for him to even "begin" the ritual, and then he would require simultaneous deaths of billions to accomplish.

Yeah, that's a low showing. Nothing even remotely comparable to any of Plagueis's given him requiring "centuries" of preparation to even attempt it, or that he would do it "eventually"( he evidently failed at even this, lol). Best of all, Valkorion's biggest showing of power is draining Ziost.

3. The scale of what Plagueis attempted and actually pulled off, was "infinitely" above the scale of what Valkorion did, because what he and Sidious did in just "months" of meditation spanned and affected the entire "galaxy".

Whereas Vitiate needs centuries to even move towards accomplishing something like that, absolutely none of his rituals have actually "accomplished" anything even infinitesimally close to that.

4. Yeah, he is not comparable. He is just better, and it is not even close. I know that it is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is so.

No, lol. The Force, per Revan (and Scourge) would literally spawn a "champion of the Light" whose sole existential purpose was to take him down. It's entirely irrelevant if there was a prophecy concerning it, or if its Force potential was unprecedented because it would still be a child spawned by the Force to combat Vitiate nonetheless - in other words, a being like Anakin.

Also, no; the prophecy stated that the Force strove for balance and thus it would spawn a champion of the light to defeat him, not that "a Jedi would one day kill him." I really don't know what you're getting at here, rofl. Anyway, the HoT's potential still has yet to be established, so I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up in the first place.


The difference between the two instances is that, unlike the two Sith, Vitiate was doing this by simply existing, and not using everything he had in a ritual specifically aimed at unbalancing the Force. The time difference is entirely excusable. As for the other part of your argument, the HoT's potential has yet to be established - he could be well above Vitiate by his prime, given the guy's already a Kun-tier, and we've seen similar growth at similar ages with Anakin.


My full debunking of the feat can be found here and here.

Aside from this, yes, the HoT fits all of the criteria you provided.

1. Vitiate affects the balance of the Force so greatly in the favor of the dark side that it needed to spawn a "champion of the light" to take him down, indicating that the magnitude of his simple existance was akin to the magnitude of Plagueis' and Sidious' ritual.

2. Scourge, when meeting the HoT on Quesh, immediately recognizes him as the champion of the Force destined to bring down Vitiate that Revan described. And the best part is? The Force itself showed him the vision that allowed him to identify the HoT as such a being.

3. The HoT, later known as the Outlander, fulfills the destiny described by Revan and Scourge and kills Vitiate, thereby bringing true balance to the Force.


Well, yes, it's entirely excusable (and, honestly, impressive) that he'd need only centuries and only billions of deaths when you consider the ritual's purpose - to destroy the entire galaxy (which contains quadrillions of beings, far more than the billions he needed) and the Force itself in a ritual. Like, shit, it's so far above what Plagueis could ever dream of doing that I don't even know why you're comparing the two feats.

Hell, Vitiate even having the Force mastery, power, and overall potential to pull off that ritual already puts him miles above Plagueis in anything concerning the Force whatsoever.

Read above.

Have you ever debated SW on another forum before? You remind me strongly of a certain PT supporter over on Comic Vine.

Also Hasch why the **** did you make this so hard to respond to

Citation needed.

Because to even remotely insinuate that HoT/Outlander is in the same ballpark as the Chosen One as a messianic figure is dishonest as hell.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Citation needed.

Because to even remotely insinuate that HoT/Outlander is in the same ballpark as the Chosen One as a messianic figure is dishonest as hell.
Sure:

Originally posted by slayne
Sure:

That's what I thought you'd cite. Anything more definitive than Revan's... opinion?

Wouldn't a champion of light, be a Jedi? Seems to me it's like the same thing, a Jedi can be considered a champion of the light. Not really see how that quote is specific.

Why is this champion of the light nonsense still being peddled?

Originally posted by Azronger
Why is this champion of the light nonsense still being peddled?

This whole notion isn't needed anyway.

Originally posted by slayne

Have you ever debated SW on another forum before? You remind me strongly of a certain PT supporter over on Comic Vine.

It's not lotl

I suppose Meetra Surik was also an Anakin-esque being?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I suppose Meetra Surik was also an Anakin-esque being?
Same with Nihilus, and all those mini nihilus's Revan trained.

Revan>Chosen one confirmed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's what I thought you'd cite. Anything more definitive than Revan's... opinion?

Revan and *Scrouge*.

Revan, while hardly infallible, has as deep an understanding of the Force and its working as nearly anyone else in the Star Wars mythos, to the point he could do the impossible and balance for the light and the dark sides or the Force.

I'd say his opinion on the matter holds pretty high degree weight.

Am I the only one that doesn't get this whole "Revan and balance of the force" thing?...What the hell does this mean?

He uses both sides?...Why is this special exactly when other Users can also use dark or light side abilities? It's also not like Revan didn't fall to the dark side and then come back and whatever, so to say he used both without any harm to his physiology is dumb because he clearly did.

Soo...what am I missing here?

I'm specifically talking about his balance of the Force attack in which, he uses the Force, in it's "purest" form, kek

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I'm specifically talking about his balance of the Force attack in which, he uses the Force, in it's "purest" form, kek

Well I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about, is this using both sides crap that everyone always seems to tout for Revan when...what the hell is so special about it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's what I thought you'd cite. Anything more definitive than Revan's... opinion?
Yep.

Scourge was shown a vision by the Force itself (as he watched Revan getting shitstomped by the Emperor, naturally) of Vitiate lying dead at the hands of a powerful Jedi, and it was from this vision that he was able to identify the HoT on Quesh. This goes hand in hand with what Revan prophesized about the champion spawned by the Force who would bring Vitiate to justice, as evidenced by this quote:

All the available evidence points to the HoTlander being the Force-spawned being Revan spoke of whose entire destiny was to bring Vitiate to justice.

Ask that question to someone who actually uses that assertion as a strong point for Revan, lal.

For the ones that do use it as an argument, I guess it makes him "better", in their eyes, since he retains the discipline of the Jedi, while not being afraid to release his powers in the most nefarious ways, thus, making him the best of both worlds. Or, in other words - he is not restricted or corrupted by either dogma as he uses the Force as he sees fit, rather than pigeon holing them into separate niches.

Edt: Ninja'ed. That was for Zen.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Ask that question to someone who actually uses that assertion as a strong point for Revan, lal.

For the ones that do use it as an argument, I guess it makes him "better", in their eyes, since he retains the discipline of the Jedi, while not being afraid to release his powers in the most nefarious ways, thus, making him the best of both worlds. Or, in other words - he is not restricted or corrupted by either dogma as he uses the Force as he sees fit, rather than pigeon holing them into separate niches.

Edt: Ninja'ed. That was for Zen.

Yet he clearly was corrupted by the dark side, since he became Darth Revan, since the dark side was within him, so he wasn't like a perfect being either.

Though my question was more a general one, it wasn't to you specifically. Well my first post was, wasn't trying to drag you into it..although I wouldn't wanna go off topic here, so moving on.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet he clearly was corrupted by the dark side, since he became Darth Revan, since the dark side was within him, so he wasn't like a perfect being either.

Though my question was more a general one, it wasn't to you specifically. Well my first post was, wasn't trying to drag you into it..although I wouldn't wanna go off topic here, so moving on.

The point was that he was redeemed, and reached a point where he could draw on the dual philosophies, and see things that the jedi sith had blinded themselves to, it is sort of was an inspiration for Valkorian.

Darth Gravid, tried to introduced the light within the RoT and Went insane. It shows, the amount of will one is needed to have.