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Who wins

WW Hulk wins.

Hulk, and quite easily.

Poor Captain Marvel

Marvel MURDERS World War Hulk!!!

Marvel shitstomps.

Easy fight for Hulk based off fts.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based on?

Superman by the time of KINGDOM COME had absorbed enough solar radiation to become IMMUNE to kryptonite! He was clearly stronger than his younger depictions. When it was shown that KC Superman is not the older version of Post Crisis Superman his demonstration of superior strength was definitively shown both by feats of strength and combat.

Captain Marvel in KINGDOME COME was depicted as a being who rivaled KC Superman in ALL aspects of strength, speed, endurance and invulnerability.

Any being who can go toe to toe with KC Superman ANNIHILATES World War Hulk!

Marvel.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman by the time of KINGDOM COME had absorbed enough solar radiation to become IMMUNE to kryptonite! He was clearly stronger than his younger depictions. When it was shown that KC Superman is not the older version of Post Crisis Superman his demonstration of superior strength was definitively shown both by feats of strength and combat.

Captain Marvel in KINGDOME COME was depicted as a being who rivaled KC Superman in ALL aspects of strength, speed, endurance and invulnerability.

Any being who can go toe to toe with KC Superman ANNIHILATES World War Hulk!

Superman spent the entire 'fight' trying to talk Marvel out of it. To snap out of it.

As soon as he took things seriously, and said 'enough', Marvel was ended.

IOW, he was NOT Supes' rival.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman spent the entire 'fight' trying to talk Marvel out of it. To snap out of it.

As soon as he took things seriously, and said 'enough', Marvel was ended.

IOW, he was NOT Supes' rival.

Take KC Superman's DEFAULT level of strength and look at how he ramped up during that fight. There is NOTHING World War Hulk could do to match that given Marvel's advantage in speed and long distance attacks. Those thunderbolts would BREAK Banner.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Based on? Captain Marvel was explicitly stated by to be able to counter Superman's every move :

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126230/3554820-1048773024-marve.gif

KC Superman is ridiculously overpowered himself, and that was seen when he came into mainstream DCU.

Marvel beats hulk back into banner but unlike trash sentry he dont revert back as well. He then kills banner

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah everyone said this and that, but when push came to shove, Superman ended the fight. Lip service is good and all, but he was found wanting when Supey got serious. Sign!! Being someone's equal does not mean you can defeat that person in a fight. Cap and supey have always been equals and always will be, no matter who defeats who. Oh and hulk wins.

Hulk punch waaaaaaayyyy too hard to lose this. Captain Marvel is one of my faves but this isn't a fight he can win.

Hulk smashes him, rapes his corpse, eats it, then shits it on abhi.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hulk smashes him, rapes his corpse, eats it, then shits it on abhi.

So Kingdom Come Superman is Kal-l? Or was he in mainstream some other time?

Originally posted by Damborgson
So Kingdom Come Superman is Kal-l? Or was he in mainstream some other time?

He was never mainstream KINGDOM COME marks his first appearance.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk punch waaaaaaayyyy too hard to lose this. Captain Marvel is one of my faves but this isn't a fight he can win.

THE FILTHY, GAMMITE, THAT IS BANNER NEVER LAYS A HAND ON MARVEL!

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kUIKiUx2Bz8/VtiGjL5lcjI/AAAAAAAAJYw/OGKBpwOW0hk/s1600/war2016-0304d.jpg

HULK. DIES. BRUTALLY.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
He was never mainstream KINGDOM COME marks his first appearance.

Okay so he is Kal-l. Okay cool

With that said, I feel Shazam would get a similar treatment from WWH. Hurt him with lightning, then get grabbed or something.

Originally posted by JBL
Sign!! Being someone's equal does not mean you can defeat that person in a fight. Cap and supey have always been equals and always will be, no matter who defeats who. Oh and hulk wins.

Sigh indeed!!!

Being someone's equal means stalemating them, right? Never said that being equal means beating someone, lol. That's....the antithesis of being equal.

Here is the fight with Marvel in Kingdom Come:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5E5CmMIqutM/VRJjKbzeMlI/AAAAAAAJDrA/kEhB5RDLUNs/s1600/p6_145%2Bcopy.jpg

'Damn it Marvel, snap out of it!...we have to work together!'

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AbZjVLrsfkw/VRJjRqUzG3I/AAAAAAAJDsk/4pWYCJCumW0/s1600/p6_155%2Bcopy.jpg

'In the name of heaven, how can you do this?'

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pxNJaHqn5sQ/VRJjULJ55lI/AAAAAAAJDtI/6x4iEX-jQ5c/s1600/p6_159%2Bcopy.jpg

'Enough!'

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3oRzJAEqweU/VRJjUmpEWFI/AAAAAAAJDtU/1f6gs_w_BDo/s1600/p6_160%2Bcopy.jpg

'ENOUGH!'

Superman was trying to talk his old friend down. Get through to him. Marvel was just ignoring him, and then called the lightning - using his speed to outspeed Superman and get out of the way. Superman had enough, and then Billy's speed was too slow.

Using Superman as a gauge is faulty, as the 'fight' was over as soon as Superman stopped trying to talk him down. Had he done so at the start of the fight, then Marvel wouldn't have delayed him for as long.

Unless you're one of those guys who thinks Superman released his mental blocks?

yeah i'm kinda with you on this. when supes crossed over into the mainstream, i expected big things from him but honestly i found him kinda..meh in the jsa. and marvel didn't seem that spectacular minus lip service. /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah everyone said this and that, but when push came to shove, Superman ended the fight. Lip service is good and all, but he was found wanting when Supey got serious. It's not as if Superman was able to physically beat him - he caught his human form. Superman was explicitly countered by Marvel, while he was trying to contain the battle. He was physically unable to overcome his powered form. And let's not forget that the battle contained Justice League + nearly every other superhuman on Earth, and yet it was said Cap was the only one other than Superman able to stop it.

The mere fact that he was physically roughly equal with the same Superman who was >>> mainstream Superman:

http://imgur.com/a/8jGMQ

Means he shitstomps here.

I question KC Superman being stronger than mainstream Supes, he doesn't hold back, but that's about it. I also question Marvel being a match for KC Supes in the Kingdom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Delusional. WW Hulk would break him. Superior/dynamic strength, healing factor, smarter, more tactical, etc.

KC Billy got killed by a nuke. WWH would most likely laugh one off.

In fairness, he was human at the time the nuke went off.

Maybe(3x Shazam). No actual proof on panel iirc. One could also say that he was most likely dodging the lightning as it came down since his whole point was for the lightning to hit the nuke. Plus iirc the three shots may have come down all together at once.

Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
I question KC Superman being stronger than mainstream Supes, he doesn't hold back, but that's about it. I also question Marvel being a match for KC Supes in the Kingdom.

Your answers to both of the aforementioned points don't address the following.

Can World War Hulk defeat Kingdom Come Captain Marvel?

The answer is an EMPHATIC NO!!!!

Marevel's performance against KC Superman puts him a full tier above Banner.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Maybe(3x Shazam). No actual proof on panel iirc. One could also say that he was most likely dodging the lightning as it came down since his whole point was for the lightning to hit the nuke. Plus iirc the three shots may have come down all together at once.

FILTHY, UNWORTHY, LIES!!!!

Unlike your HERO the blonde, whore, Odinson, a nuke means NOTHING to Marvel.

THE PROOF IS PRESENT HERETIC JUST COUNT THE TIMES HE SAID SHAZAM!!!

Hmmm. Guess u have better eyes than me considering u can see Billy through all that smoke and explosion... You know... The explosion caused by three lightning strikes seemingly hitting the are where the nuke was, all at once.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LDvhmNktS1g/VRJjZLRBAaI/AAAAAAAJDuM/ntEZT7wVZVs/s1600/p6_167%2Bcopy.jpg

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Hmmm. Guess u have better eyes than me considering u can see Billy through all that smoke and explosion... You know... The explosion caused by three lightning strikes seemingly hitting the are where the nuke was, all at once.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LDvhmNktS1g/VRJjZLRBAaI/AAAAAAAJDuM/ntEZT7wVZVs/s1600/p6_167%2Bcopy.jpg

COUNT ALL THE LIGHTNING STRIKES HAMMER LICKER!!!!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
COUNT ALL THE LIGHTNING STRIKES HAMMER LICKER!!!!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Maybe(3x Shazam). No actual proof on panel iirc. One could also say that he was most likely dodging the lightning as it came down since his whole point was for the lightning to hit the nuke. Plus iirc the three shots may have come down all together at once.

How could he dodge when he was holding onto the missile the whole time?

He was easily dodging his lightning by moving a mere few feet when he let it hit Kal-l.. He could easily do the same.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AbZjVLrsfkw/VRJjRqUzG3I/AAAAAAAJDsk/4pWYCJCumW0/s1600/p6_155%2Bcopy.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-baGdbWIgcO4/VRJjSrT5n8I/AAAAAAAJDs0/W-dv_0gwL1A/s1600/p6_156%2Bcopy.jpg

In any case, he most likely shifted enough to let the lightning strikes hit the nuke. No point in him eating the lightning. Kinda defeats the purpose of letting it hit your target if he simply let it hit him. Imo.

So you're saying he's holding onto the missile as it speeds downwards, screams out Shazam, moves out of the way( not holding on, because if he could move whilst holding on he might as well divert it somewhere else) then catching back up with the missile, screaming Shazam again etc etc?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you're saying he's holding onto the missile as it speeds downwards, screams out Shazam, moves out of the way( not holding on, because if he could move whilst holding on he might as well divert it somewhere else) then catching back up with the missile, screaming Shazam again etc etc?

Lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you're saying he's holding onto the missile as it speeds downwards, screams out Shazam, moves out of the way( not holding on, because if he could move whilst holding on he might as well divert it somewhere else) then catching back up with the missile, screaming Shazam again etc etc?
Calls out for three bolts. He shifts his position at the last possible fraction of a second so the bolts hit the nuke. Nuke explodes.

Again this is just an opinion seeing as we don't actually know exact details when impact occurred.

Or it could simply be as easy as the bolts hitting the nuke on its way to him. Either way, his plan was to ultimately have the bolts blow up the nuke.

Not sure about ure scenario. Seems a bit nutty.

this thread just became a
"KC superman and KC marvel are equals or is KC superman > KC marvel"

Green Scar would brush off the lightning and feed Marvel his teeth if he tried to fight head on sooner or later. It's competitive and an amazing fight, but only as long as Hulk lets it. Compared to the wanking Hulk got in WWH, Captain Marvel hadn't even puberty in those few scenes in Kingdom Come.

Seriously? Ross and Waid basically made Cap the only one who could show Superman he wasn't the top dog.

If it was Kingdom Come, Cap would beat the shit out of Hulk. Just like he did with Superman. That was the whole point of the character.

I like how only Hulk's story can be taken into account but not Cap's. If you think Hulk is going to brush off main reality Superman, you're not reading proper comics.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Green Scar would brush off the lightning and feed Marvel his teeth if he tried to fight head on sooner or later. It's competitive and an amazing fight, but only as long as Hulk lets it. Compared to the wanking Hulk got in WWH, Captain Marvel hadn't even puberty in those few scenes in Kingdom Come.

Banner gets KO'd with utter ease.

He never touches Marvel as he is too slow to lay a hand on him before he gets ravaged by punches and lightning strikes.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Green Scar would brush off the lightning and feed Marvel his teeth if he tried to fight head on sooner or later. It's competitive and an amazing fight, but only as long as Hulk lets it. Compared to the wanking Hulk got in WWH, Captain Marvel hadn't even puberty in those few scenes in Kingdom Come.

Basically this. As I said before his punching power is enough to seal the deal in this fight... take into consideration the guy is formidable enough to withstand punches that was knocking holes into him and was still 100% afterwards (this is before his other high end showings after WWH), Hulk stomps. A weakened WWH survived and tanked a blast far more powerful than the one the killed everyone hero out there minus a handful (that was protected by GL.

Originally posted by carver9
Basically this. As I said before his punching power is enough to seal the deal in this fight... take into consideration the guy is formidable enough to withstand punches that was knocking holes into him and was still 100% afterwards (this is before his other high end showings after WWH), Hulk stomps. A weakened WWH survived and tanked a blast far more powerful than the one the killed everyone hero out there minus a handful (that was protected by GL.

Banner WOULDN'T survive the hole MARVEL PUNCHES IN HIS HEAD!!!!!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously? Ross and Waid basically made Cap the only one who could show Superman he wasn't the top dog.

If it was Kingdom Come, Cap would beat the shit out of Hulk. Just like he did with Superman. That was the whole point of the character.

I like how only Hulk's story can be taken into account but not Cap's. If you think Hulk is going to brush off main reality Superman, you're not reading proper comics. Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Banner gets KO'd with utter ease.

He never touches Marvel as he is too slow to lay a hand on him before he gets ravaged by punches and lightning strikes.
Sorry Abhi and LoB, but I actually agree with Team Hulk. WWH would break KCKM. KCSM would wreck WWH though.

Nope

Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously? Ross and Waid basically made Cap the only one who could show Superman he wasn't the top dog.

If it was Kingdom Come, Cap would beat the shit out of Hulk. Just like he did with Superman. That was the whole point of the character.

I like how only Hulk's story can be taken into account but not Cap's. If you think Hulk is going to brush off main reality Superman, you're not reading proper comics.

Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry Abhi and LoB, but I actually agree with Team Hulk. WWH would break KCKM. KCSM would wreck WWH though.

YOU ARE SIDING WITH FILTHY GAMMITES!!!!!!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
YOU ARE SIDING WITH FILTHY GAMMITES!!!!!!
I know But CM is weaksauce bro.

False.

CM would be giving him the Sentry treatment, but its not easy to put Hulk down. He was getting hit by all out Sentry while engulfed in his unleashed energy and was still punching hard enough back to revert him to Bob.

CM lightning would eventually wear him out, but KC Superman also likely wasn't enjoying the magic in that lightning either.

Either way, its not a stomp in anyones favor but I'm leaning towards Hulk.

pretty close to a split imo.

Originally posted by zopzop
I know But CM is weaksauce bro.

Mr. Batson requires your address.....

IMMEDIATELY!!!!

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/84479/1641907-shazam2.jpg

Hulk wins, and wouldn't be pretty. People forget that WW Hulk held back because of innocent lives being at stake. Abhi, didn't you just finish arguing in a Superman vs Zoom thread that it isn't always PIS that a slower character can and has beaten faster characters? Well the Hulk tagged the Sentry square in the face for a home run hit. The only difference here, is that he would be able to hit as hard as he was at the end of the WW Hulk mini without screaming for someone to please stop him. He could do do repeatedly.

Originally posted by Stoic
Hulk wins, and wouldn't be pretty. People forget that WW Hulk held back because of innocent lives being at stake. Abhi, didn't you just finish arguing in a Superman vs Zoom thread that it isn't always PIS that a slower character can and has beaten faster characters? Well the Hulk tagged the Sentry square in the face for a home run hit. The only difference here, is that he would be able to hit as hard as he was at the end of the WW Hulk mini without screaming for someone to please stop him. He could do do repeatedly.

Your creating a false analogy using Abhi's argument about Superman vs ZOOM. Superman has CONSISTENTLY demonstrated speed feats that put him at a competitive level with the wielders of The Speed Force. Conversely, Hulk has NEVER demonstrated speed feats on a consistent level that would indicate he can land a punch on an all out Captain Marvel.

He wouldn't land ANY of those Carver amped punches before Marvel's onslaught of lightning strikes and punches laid waste to him. Marvel was BOTH fast and STRONG enough to virtually simultaneously hold KC Superman in PLACE and then MOVE out of the way of the lightning strikes.

BANNER HAS NO HOPE!!!

Except as soon as Superman said enough was enough, Marvel was out reacted.

Marvel never really held any appreciable speed advantage over Superman,at least not in their fight.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Your creating a false analogy using Abhi's argument about Superman vs ZOOM. Superman has CONSISTENTLY demonstrated speed feats that put him at a competitive level with the wielders of The Speed Force. Conversely, Hulk has NEVER demonstrated speed feats on a consistent level that would indicate he can land a punch on an all out Captain Marvel.

He wouldn't land ANY of those Carver amped punches before Marvel's onslaught of lightning strikes and punches laid waste to him. Marvel was BOTH fast and STRONG enough to virtually simultaneously hold KC Superman in PLACE and then MOVE out of the way of the lightning strikes.

BANNER HAS NO HOPE!!!

He did it against Sentry, so he'd do it against Billy. And let's not pretend as if Captain Marvel has never been hit by someone slower than he was. Abhi argued that speed does not always equal win, and I agree with him. Not to mention that you've repeatedly ignored Dark Saints posts on the matter.

Originally posted by Stoic
He did it against Sentry, so he'd do it against Billy. And let's not pretend as if Captain Marvel has never been hit by someone slower than he was. Abhi argued that speed does not always equal win, and I agree with him. Not to mention that you've repeatedly ignored Dark Saints posts on the matter.

Sentry clearly wasn't going all out as demonstrated by his performance in SIEGE. That won't be the case with the Captain of The Thunder and Lightning( That was a shot at you lowly Thor followers!)

I'VE ANNIHILATED DARKSAINT FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT!!!

HOW MUCH MORE ABUSE CAN HE STAND?!!!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Sentry clearly wasn't going all out as demonstrated by his performance in SIEGE. That won't be the case with the Captain of The Thunder and Lightning( That was a shot at you lowly Thor followers!)

I'VE ANNIHILATED DARKSAINT FOR 2 YEARS STRAIGHT!!!

HOW MUCH MORE ABUSE CAN HE STAND?!!!

Bob was going all out with what he had at the time. You bringing up what he later did does not remove the fact that he punched Sentry squarely in the face during a blitz attempt. He was fast enough to do that on panel to Sentry, he'd be fast enough to do it to Billy as well.

Sentry later learned to use more abilities that were yet to be known to him because he had never faced off against a character as powerful as Owen. What he did to Ares wasn't anything that the Hulk was incapable of doing. The Hulk planted Ares into the ground with one hand and that was the end of Ares. This was also while holding back.

You bring up what Billy did to Superman, but refuse to acknowledge that Superman wasn't really going all out.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except as soon as Superman said enough was enough, Marvel was out reacted.

Marvel never really held any appreciable speed advantage over Superman,at least not in their fight.

Marvel HELD Superman in place and then MOVED out of the way of the thunder strike. Even more there is a sequence where he DOESN'T TOUCH Superman at all but merely stands next to him and still out reacts Superman.

The ending of the conflict between Marvel and Superman clearly indicates that Marvel was breaking the mind control towards the end of the fight. When you take this into account his performance is even more impressive.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Marvel HELD Superman in place and then MOVED out of the way of the thunder strike. Even more there is a sequence where he DOESN'T TOUCH Superman at all but merely stands next to him and still out reacts Superman.

The ending of the conflict between Marvel and Superman clearly indicates that Marvel was breaking the mind control towards the end of the fight. When you take this into account his performance is even more impressive.

It would have been a bigger deal if he'd done that to Superman while he was going all out. As it stands, the feat wasn't that impressive.

Originally posted by Stoic
It would have been a bigger deal if he'd done that to Superman while he was going all out. As it stands, the feat wasn't that impressive.

NOT AS IMPRESSIVE AS MARVEL STANDING OVER BANNER'S BROKEN CORPSE, GAMMITE!!!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2f/d6/14/2fd6146af3337c98fc260e36527d7369--captain-marvel-shazam-marvel-dc.jpg

He held Superman in place, as Superman was begging him to break the mind control, to fight along side him.

Then when. Superman saw that it wasn't working,and that he needed to actually stop shit,he just out reacted Billy.

Am also getting convinced that Billy was Marvel at the time of the explosion. Which means Marvel was vaporised by a multi megaton explosion.

WWH would laugh that off.

look, let's face it--dc has always done their best to try and paint cm and supes as near equals. but narration and and even side-by-side comparisons can NOT make up for the fact that there is a GROSS disparity in achievements and feats. paying homage to a character ALSO doesn't make up for a huge feat disparity. if you removed their direct side-by-side comparisons when they are together, and look at everything else, superman pretty well crushes marvel in all areas. i used to be in the camp that said cm=superman. but that doesn't old anymore. dc TELLING me they're equal means nothing when they keep SHOWING me something else. and they clearly demonstrate that superman>>cm.

so all the superman comparisons are about as meaningful as pissing into a strong wind.

LoB loves that though

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Am also getting convinced that Billy was Marvel at the time of the explosion. Which means Marvel was vaporised by a multi megaton explosion.

WWH would laugh that off.

LIES CARVER WORSHIPPER!!!

The lightning strikes CLEARLY show that Marvel was Billy at the time of the explosion. In fact, I believe there is some sort of KINGDOM COME compendium where Ross and Waid address this definitively.

Originally posted by Stoic
Hulk wins, and wouldn't be pretty. People forget that WW Hulk held back because of innocent lives being at stake. Abhi, didn't you just finish arguing in a Superman vs Zoom thread that it isn't always PIS that a slower character can and has beaten faster characters? Well the Hulk tagged the Sentry square in the face for a home run hit. The only difference here, is that he would be able to hit as hard as he was at the end of the WW Hulk mini without screaming for someone to please stop him. He could do do repeatedly.
I'm not talking about speed in this thread. Where did you get that idea?

Originally posted by leonidas
look, let's face it--dc has always done their best to try and paint cm and supes as near equals. but narration and and even side-by-side comparisons can NOT make up for the fact that there is a GROSS disparity in achievements and feats. paying homage to a character ALSO doesn't make up for a huge feat disparity. if you removed their direct side-by-side comparisons when they are together, and look at everything else, superman pretty well crushes marvel in all areas. i used to be in the camp that said cm=superman. but that doesn't old anymore. dc TELLING me they're equal means nothing when they keep SHOWING me something else. and they clearly demonstrate that superman>>cm.

so all the superman comparisons are about as meaningful as pissing into a strong wind.

The Superman comparisons. in particular the KINGDOM COME Superman comparison IS meaningful because that is the ONLY depiction of KC Marvel's power we can draw from.

The comparison is ALSO meaningful because KC Superman would DECIMATE WWH with absolute ease. The fact that Marvel could contend with KC Superman at all demonstrates his superiority.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
LoB loves that though

oh i know that.... and i'm not saying throw out their meetings, but this is an odd case where direct meetings and battles don't really come close to telling the WHOLE story. if we looked at just the way they fought each or interacted with each other they WOULD be equals. when you look at the broader picture though, it's clear they are pretty far from equal. cm=ww imo, and even that (especially currently) is questionable.

i would LOVE for someone to take cm and make something of him. i honestly believe that in both universes, no other character combines history and an almost complete disregard by writers like cm. that dude NEEDS to be made awesome. soooo much potential for amazing stories with his ties to magic and his established history. most underused and undervalued character in comics as far as i'm concerned. /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
LoB loves that though

That is MR. MIGHTY LOB to you!

Question: does Marvel's clothing change back when it's separated from him, when he's Billy?

I'm talking about his cape,which Superman ripped off and tied to the flagpole.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Question: does Marvel's clothing change back when it's separated from him, when he's Billy?

I'm talking about his cape,which Superman ripped off and tied to the flagpole.

I've never seen a comparable depiction to the one in KINGDOM COME. The uniform is never shown outside of Billy wearing it. I think the cape scene was clearly symbolic as it marked his sacrifice as creating a new nation in the post war era.

So whenever he changed to Billy, he was always shown wearing that black tux.

So what I'm getting at, is at the end, Superman was still clutching the cape after he died.

If it follows Billy/Marvel, then it means he was still Marvel when he died.

If it doesn't, and has no link whatsoever to Marvel after being separated, then it means nothing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Question: does Marvel's clothing change back when it's separated from him, when he's Billy?

I'm talking about his cape,which Superman ripped off and tied to the flagpole.
Superman ripped that piece of cape off when Billy caught up to him and flung him away from the nuke :
https://s26.postimg.org/ndr2r2so5/RCO026.jpg

I know, lol.

My question is, once separated, is it completely separate from Billy?

No point in him transforming back to Billy. Logically he would try to be at his best performing level when trying to save lives. I doubt he'd risk the lives of others playing around with transformation shennanigans. The bolts hit the missile.

Then again there's no panel showing my version and ures(Darktaint).
Lol.....

Wutevs.

Lol I'm actually saying we could be in agreement....

Was it shown on panel that he reverted back to Cap?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol I'm actually saying we could be in agreement....
Well I'm saying he reverted back then.
schmoll

i've no idea what yur talking about but sticking to the point opposite ds is usally the best way to end up being right in the end.

It's one of my cardinal rules.

Cardinal sin, more like.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I know, lol.

My question is, once separated, is it completely separate from Billy?

Yes, because it wasn't shown again and we see Marvel in costume after Superman grabbed the cape.

This scan from ZopZop ALSO proves again that Marvel had the speed advantage as he overtakes Superman who is already airborne and racing toward the nuke.

https://s26.postimg.org/ndr2r2so5/RCO026.jpg

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
This scan from ZopZop ALSO proves again that Marvel had the speed advantage as he overtakes Superman who is already airborne and racing toward the nuke.

https://s26.postimg.org/ndr2r2so5/RCO026.jpg
And again here :
https://s26.postimg.org/huy6kprc5/RCO045.jpghttps://s26.postimg.org/9kcdcvvs5/RCO046.jpg
Seems like Cap's flight speed was top tier. But this doesn't translate into combat speed as we saw later when Superman owned him during the lightening assault.

Originally posted by zopzop
And again here :
https://s26.postimg.org/huy6kprc5/RCO045.jpghttps://s26.postimg.org/9kcdcvvs5/RCO046.jpg
Seems like Cap's flight speed was top tier. But this doesn't translate into combat speed as we saw later when Superman owned him during the lightening assault.

SILENCE!!!

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not talking about speed in this thread. Where did you get that idea?

From everyone talking about Billy's speed.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I've never seen a comparable depiction to the one in KINGDOM COME. The uniform is never shown outside of Billy wearing it. I think the cape scene was clearly symbolic as it marked his sacrifice as creating a new nation in the post war era.

How does that explain Superman tying it to a pole?

What about the nuke? the Hulk would have ate it.

Originally posted by Stoic
From everyone talking about Billy's speed.



How does that explain Superman tying it to a pole?

What about the nuke? the Hulk would have ate it.

It explains it by Waid/Ross taking liberties with the canon to make a lasting symbolic moment involving Marvel. I've read pretty much 80% of Marvel's appearances from the Golden Age on and I've never seen the costume damaged in any way.

Marvel would have tanked the nuke if he was in his super-powered form. The last thunder strike reverted him back to Billy and he died before he could say Shazam again.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
It explains it by Waid/Ross taking liberties with the canon to make a lasting symbolic moment involving Marvel. I've read pretty much 80% of Marvel's appearances from the Golden Age on and I've never seen the costume damaged in any way.

Marvel would have tanked the nuke if he was in his super-powered form. The last thunder strike reverted him back to Billy and he died before he could say Shazam again.

Listen bruh, the Death of Captain Mar-Vell was all kinds of symbolic, and he was a crazy bad-ass character, but he'd eat boots against this version of the Hulk. This very same version of the Hulk had intestines that could withstand Hercules' best assault if Hercules were over 133 times stronger than he is at base levels in his immortal form. That was a calm WW Hulk that took that kind of abuse. He was much more powerful than that at the very end of the WW Hulk arc, when he was desperately trying to dial back his power levels. Your biggest argument is that he made Superman look bad, while not taking into account that Superman is always holding back. This particular Hulk would feed Billy his own liver. We don't even have to go into how many nukes of power the Hulk could hit with if it were a comparison. While trying to stop himself, one foot fall nearly sank the Eastern seaboard. That was him trying not to hurt anyone. This Hulk unlike the Savage Hulk could dial his power levels up from base to be able to hold an entire planet together that was going to explode, much like the way that Krypton exploded, except that this world (Sakaar) was larger than Earth.

It was nice playing with you, but this particular Hulk would beat the mess out of Billy.

Originally posted by zopzop
And again here :
https://s26.postimg.org/huy6kprc5/RCO045.jpghttps://s26.postimg.org/9kcdcvvs5/RCO046.jpg
Seems like Cap's flight speed was top tier. But this doesn't translate into combat speed as we saw later when Superman owned him during the lightening assault.

Hitting Superman gave him a raging erection apparently

Originally posted by Stoic
Listen bruh, the Death of Captain Mar-Vell was all kinds of symbolic, and he was a crazy bad-ass character, but he'd eat boots against this version of the Hulk. This very same version of the Hulk had intestines that could withstand Hercules' best assault if Hercules were over 133 times stronger than he is at base levels in his immortal form. That was a calm WW Hulk that took that kind of abuse. He was much more powerful than that at the very end of the WW Hulk arc, when he was desperately trying to dial back his power levels. Your biggest argument is that he made Superman look bad, while not taking into account that Superman is always holding back. This particular Hulk would feed Billy his own liver. We don't even have to go into how many nukes of power the Hulk could hit with if it were a comparison. While trying to stop himself, one foot fall nearly sank the Eastern seaboard. That was him trying not to hurt anyone. This Hulk unlike the Savage Hulk could dial his power levels up from base to be able to hold an entire planet together that was going to explode, much like the way that Krypton exploded, except that this world (Sakaar) was larger than Earth.

It was nice playing with you, but this particular Hulk would beat the mess out of Billy.

The same way he dialed it up against The Sentry?

WWH wins.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Hitting Superman gave him a raging erection apparently

KEEP YOUR FILTHY FANFIC OUT OF THIS HAMMER LICKER!!!

Originally posted by carver9
WWH wins a BRUTAL beating.

I concur!

Based off fts, Cap doesn't stand a chance.

Speed kills.

Originally posted by carver9
Based off fts, Cap doesn't stand a chance.

He battled KC Superman Toe to Toe and was depicted as a clear rival in all categories pertaining to combat. Kingdom Come Superman ANNIHILATES Banner, Marvel would do the same.

Speed- Advantage Captain Marvel

Ranged attack- Advantage Captain Marvel

Default Strength- Advantage Captain Marvel

skill- Advantage Captain Marvel

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
He battled KC Superman Toe to Toe and was depicted as a clear rival in all categories pertaining to combat. Kingdom Come Superman ANNIHILATES Banner, Marvel would do the same.

Speed- Advantage Captain Marvel

Ranged attack- Advantage Captain Marvel

Default Strength- Advantage Captain Marvel

skill- Advantage Captain Marvel

What strength fts does KC Superman have that puts him above WWH? Remember, a weakened Hulk shifted the tectonic plates of a planet 10 times the size of Earth.

WWH wrecks him

Originally posted by carver9
What strength fts does KC Superman have that puts him above WWH? Remember, a weakened Hulk shifted the tectonic plates of a planet 10 times the size of Earth.

His combat feats against KC Superman.

Remember, Gammite, Combat feats ALWAYS trump strength feats!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
His combat feats against KC Superman.

Remember, Gammite, Combat feats ALWAYS trump strength feats!

I asked about KC Superman strength showings.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
His combat feats against KC Superman.

Remember, Gammite, Combat feats ALWAYS trump strength feats! So I must be god tier based on feats.

Originally posted by Badabing
So I must be god tier based on feats.

YOU ARE A FRAUD!!!

THE REAL REPROBATE, SCALEBAG, FORMERLY KNOWN AS BADABING NOW SLEEPS WITH THE FISHES!!!!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
KEEP YOUR FILTHY FANFIC OUT OF THIS HAMMER LICKER!!!

We can see it !

Originally posted by Zack M
Speed kills.

That's exactly what Sentry thought, but that didn't go over so well.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The same way he dialed it up against The Sentry?

the Hulk matched the Sentry's power output is all that happened there, because he later turned around and exceeded that level by leaps and bounds. You know what I mean? No? You know when he took that step that nearly sank the Eastern seaboard? Well he was well above the strength level that he was at when he faced off against anyone in the series, and the kicker here is that he was desperately trying his best to dial back his power. All happened on panel. We don't even have to imagine what he would have been like if he decided to pour it on, because we got a full glimpse of it during HOTM. Captain Marvel would get his arse beaten badly against just the Hulk desperately trying to hold back, let alone if he went for broke. From the immortal words of Quanchi "The Hulk is just on another level". Accept this fact, and everything will fit into place perfectly for you.

The thread starter knew that it would be overkill to allow the Green Scar to unleash his full might which is why he nerfed him down to the holding back WW Hulk version. This alone should make you pack it up, and attempt to sell it to your neighbors.

Originally posted by Damborgson
We can see it !

YOU SEE NOTHING BUT THE POWER OF MARVEL!!!

Originally posted by Stoic
the Hulk matched the Sentry's power output is all that happened there, because he later turned around and exceeded that level by leaps and bounds. You know what I mean? No? You know when he took that step that nearly sank the Eastern seaboard? Well he was well above the strength level that he was at when he faced off against anyone in the series, and the kicker here is that he was desperately trying his best to dial back his power. All happened on panel. We don't even have to imagine what he would have been like if he decided to pour it on, because we got a full glimpse of it during HOTM. Captain Marvel would get his arse beaten badly against just the Hulk desperately trying to hold back, let alone if he went for broke. From the immortal words of Quanchi "The Hulk is just on another level". Accept this fact, and everything will fit into place perfectly for you.

The thread starter knew that it would be overkill to allow the Green Scar to unleash his full might which is why he nerfed him down to the holding back WW Hulk version. This alone should make you pack it up, and attempt to sell it to your neighbors.

It was clear that the ALLIES and FRIENDS of Banner were also not going all out from the beginning.

Do you DENY this fact, Gammite?!!!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
It was clear that the ALLIES and FRIENDS of Banner were also not going all out from the beginning.

Do you DENY this fact, Gammite?!!!

You mean the Warbound that decimated the other Earth heroes? If tht is the case you may be correct... After all, it didn't take them much effort to pound the mess out of them.

No matter how, or who attempts to twist it, the Hulk held back drastically the entire time. If Captain Marvel took a hit from the Immortal Hercules at just over 133 times the power he is normally at during base level, you might as well say adios amigo, to the big red cheese, because he'd be done. The Hulk took the hit to his intestines, and while in a relatively calm state no less.

Superman always holds back, so no matter how you spin it, Superman is only Captain Marvel's equal when he drastically holds back, because when he goes for broke Captain Marvel gets the scrub treatment. In other words, Superman doesn't belong in this discussion.

Originally posted by Stoic
You mean the Warbound that decimated the other Earth heroes? If tht is the case you may be correct... After all, it didn't take them much effort to pound the mess out of them.

No matter how, or who attempts to twist it, the Hulk held back drastically the entire time. If Captain Marvel took a hit from the Immortal Hercules at just over 133 times the power he is normally at during base level, you might as well say adios amigo, to the big red cheese, because he'd be done. The Hulk took the hit to his intestines, and while in a relatively calm state no less.

Superman always holds back, so no matter how you spin it, Superman is only Captain Marvel's equal when he drastically holds back, because when he goes for broke Captain Marvel gets the scrub treatment. In other words, Superman doesn't belong in this discussion. Superman is equal to Marvel only when he drastically holds back??? Who told you that? Battle Zone time.

He means in the context of Kingdom Come, calm those titties.

Tell me what was superman holding back??

Originally posted by JBL
Superman is equal to Marvel only when he drastically holds back??? Who told you that? Battle Zone time.

He is. Superman is DC's flagship character. Marvel will never get the props that Big Blue gets. This isn't even something that we need to argue over. If Captain Marvel could have taken on Doomsday, it would have been DOCM and not DOS. That's just one example. Superman even states that he mentally suppresses a lot of his might because of the possibility of killing others.

Why not make a Doomsday vs Captain Marvel thread. Or make a Doomsday vs Black Adam thread and see how well they do?

Superman doesn't do well against Doomsday though. Doomsday is a tier above Captain Marvel, Superman and Black Adam. I don't think using him as an example helps your claim. Doomsday took on both Wonder Woman and Superman and was winning.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman is equal to Marvel only when he drastically holds back??? Who told you that? Battle Zone time.

Are YOU actually challenging him to a Battlezone match?

Jesus H Christ.

We go from Billy to Superman to Doomsday and now WW is getting involved.

What does it have to do with Kingdom Come??

In a direct comparison, Billy was out reacted by Superman once he had had enough.

Then, Billy died from a multi megaton nuke.

Hulk wins.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman doesn't do well against Doomsday though. Doomsday is a tier above Captain Marvel, Superman and Black Adam. I don't think using him as an example helps your claim. Doomsday took on both Wonder Woman and Superman and was winning.

We just saw Superman holding back against the Ikon armor though. He goes in with kids gloves to see how much any particular character can take. If they can take it, he dials it up. This is something that he always does. Superman has feats that prove that he should have whipped Doomsday by himself, but for some reason he still chose to limit himself. If Superman had King Hyperion's attitude, he probably would have one shot Doomsday before he could have adjusted IMO. Superman was also distracted in that fight, because he knew that Doomsday was going after Jon, so the parent in him kicked in. You read it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jesus H Christ.

We go from Billy to Superman to Doomsday and now WW is getting involved.

What does it have to do with Kingdom Come??

In a direct comparison, Billy was out reacted by Superman once he had had enough.

Then, Billy died from a multi megaton nuke.

Hulk wins.

BILLY BATSON DIED FROM A NUKE NOT CAPTAIN MARVEL!!!

Hulk loses.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jesus H Christ.

We go from Billy to Superman to Doomsday and now WW is getting involved.

What does it have to do with Kingdom Come??

In a direct comparison, Billy was out reacted by Superman once he had had enough.

Then, Billy died from a multi megaton nuke.

Hulk wins.

We need something to use as comparisons. I don't believe that Billy is as powerful as Superman. He's certainly not as durable, or strong.

I agree as well.

He doesn't have the feats to stack up against this most cunning of Hulks. He was a blazing idiot, don't forget, with the Wisdom of Solomon dulled.

Superman shouldn't be used as a yardstick, because when he had had enough, he could have ripped Billy's head clean off.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I agree as well.

He doesn't have the feats to stack up against this most cunning of Hulks. He was a blazing idiot, don't forget, with the Wisdom of Solomon dulled.

Superman shouldn't be used as a yardstick, because when he had had enough, he could have ripped Billy's head clean off.

You want Marvel to fight Banner under mind control as he was in KINGDOM COME?

If not why mention the fact about " The wisdom of Solomon dulled"?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I agree as well.

He doesn't have the feats to stack up against this most cunning of Hulks. He was a blazing idiot, don't forget, with the Wisdom of Solomon dulled.

Superman shouldn't be used as a yardstick, because when he had had enough, he could have ripped Billy's head clean off.

I have always wondered who the hell Solomon is? Is it King Solomon from the bible, or some ancient nerd named Solomon?

Originally posted by Stoic
I have always wondered who the hell Solomon is? Is it King Solomon from the bible, or some ancient nerd named Solomon?

King Solomon heathen!

Yeah it's King Solomon from the Bible.

Reputed to be blessed with wisdom by God himself.

As to LoB....that's what standard KC Marvel is. A dullard.

Originally posted by Stoic
We just saw Superman holding back against the Ikon armor though. He goes in with kids gloves to see how much any particular character can take. If they can take it, he dials it up. This is something that he always does. Superman has feats that prove that he should have whipped Doomsday by himself, but for some reason he still chose to limit himself. If Superman had King Hyperion's attitude, he probably would have one shot Doomsday before he could have adjusted IMO. Superman was also distracted in that fight, because he knew that Doomsday was going after Jon, so the parent in him kicked in. You read it.

Superman literally tells us he was going all out against Doomsday in their last fight and him and Wonder Woman was still losing. I don't think your argument holds.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
King Solomon heathen!

Mathew 6:28-29
28 And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was adorned like one of these.

Just thought that I'd put that out there.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman literally tells us he was going all out against Doomsday in their last fight and him and Wonder Woman was still losing. I don't think your argument holds.


Doomsday adapts right? To put him down, you have to go in for the kill. Superman wasn't fighting that way from the jump. Re-read it.

Originally posted by Stoic
Doomsday adapts right? To put him down, you have to go in for the kill. Superman wasn't fighting that way from the jump. Re-read it.

You're talking about DOS. We don't know how Cap would've done. Maxima did hella good against DD which makes me believe Cap could've done good as well. I'm talking about the latest fight and in their LATEST fight, Doomsday was beating both Superman and Wonder Woman with no issues. He's in a different tier which is the reason I said using him is a bad example. Also, during DOS, Doomsday didn't show any adaptive abilities unless you can point that out for me "during THAT story".

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah it's King Solomon from the Bible.

Reputed to be blessed with wisdom by God himself.

As to LoB....that's what standard KC Marvel is. A dullard.
Been a while since I read the story of Solomon, but wasn't the "wisdom" granted by God actually just the ability to speak with animals? And I'm not trying to downplay Cap with that because I know that the whole idea is that Cap is wise not that he can speak with animals. I was just always under the impression that the fact that he was already so naturally wise(as demonstrated by him asking for wisdom when he could have asked for anything) that God gave him that ability so that he could expand upon his wisdom on his own rather than increase Solomon's wisdom directly.

Originally posted by Stoic
Mathew 6:28-29
28 And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was adorned like one of these.

Just thought that I'd put that out there.

It appears you are a believer AKA a NON DARKSAINT!

Originally posted by darthgoober
Been a while since I read the story of Solomon, but wasn't the "wisdom" granted by God actually just the ability to speak with animals? And I'm not trying to downplay Cap with that because I know that the whole idea is that Cap is wise not that he can speak with animals. I was just always under the impression that the fact that he was already so naturally wise(as demonstrated by him asking for wisdom when he could have asked for anything) that God gave him that ability so that he could expand upon his wisdom on his own rather than increase Solomon's wisdom directly.

There's the bit about the babies and the cutting in half bit as well.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
There's the bit about the babies and the cutting in half bit as well.
Oh I know, but I attributed that to natural wisdom as well. I'm not saying that he wasn't gifted with Wisdom by God at birth, I'm just asking in regards to him asking for more wisdom later in his life. When he asked wasn't he just granted the ability to talk with animals?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I know, but I attributed that to natural wisdom as well. I'm not saying that he wasn't gifted with Wisdom by God at birth, I'm just asking in regards to him asking for more wisdom later in his life. When he asked wasn't he just granted the ability to talk with animals?

Nah. The Judgement came directly after he prayed and was blessed with wisdom. Ends with direct attribute of the wisdom amp from God.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nah. The Judgement came directly after he prayed and was blessed with wisdom. Ends with direct attribute of the wisdom amp from God.
Oh ok. Thanks for the clarification

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Jesus H Christ.

We go from Billy to Superman to Doomsday and now WW is getting involved.

What does it have to do with Kingdom Come??

In a direct comparison, Billy was out reacted by Superman once he had had enough.

Then, Billy died from a multi megaton nuke.

Hulk wins.

I still maintain that Captain Marvel had reverted back to his mortal/Billy form when the bomb actually detonated. It was shown a few pages prior that if the object he "Shazam'ed" was TOUCHING him as the lightning struck, it would revert him back into Billy as a result.

Here he 'spam-Shazams' Superman with lightning, and is still in his God/Marvel form:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160890_Kingdom_Come-164.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160892_Kingdom_Come-165.jpg


But when Superman grabs him just as the lightning strikes, *poof*, he reverts back into Billy:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160893_Kingdom_Come-168.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160894_Kingdom_Come-169.jpg


This is important because when he 'triple-Shazam'ed' the bomb, he was TOUCHING it:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160896_Kingdom_Come-175.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160897_Kingdom_Come-176.jpg

...So the same pre-established rule would have logically applied: he simultaneously reverted back into Billy just as the lightning strikes hit the bomb -- ergo he was mortal when it detonated.


Not only is this a completely logical assertion(I really don't know how it can be viewed any other way, tbh), but it also makes the most sense. I mean, Captain Marvel was shown and described as Superman's physical equal in EVERY way... Yet he gets vaped/atomized by an explosion that Supes essentially tanked? No way... He was mortal/Billy.

...IMHO.

I thought Superman HELD Marvel in place, which is why he reverted that time, not because he was conducting the lightning.

Man this is sad. Even a B-Lister like Wonder Man has survived a nuke to the face and wasn't even KOed. Serious question, has Captain Marvel beaten anyone worth mentioning in a FAIR fight?

All we see is Supes grab ahold of him just before the lightning struck. When the smoke clears, Marvel has reverted back into Billy.

As you said, Marv certainly wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed -- he was just standing there spamming Superman with lightning, and almost certainly never anticipated Supes grabbing him.


...So yes, I think he was definitely part of a conductive loop that reverted him back into Billy. Intelligence notwithstanding, that was pretty much his only weakness.

CM would have taken that blast. It was Billy who got caught in the blast.

Originally posted by Galan007
I still maintain that Captain Marvel had reverted back to his mortal/Billy form when the bomb actually detonated. It was shown a few pages prior that if the object he "Shazam'ed" was TOUCHING him as the lightning struck, it would revert him back into Billy as a result.

Here he 'spam-Shazams' Superman with lightning, and is still in his God/Marvel form:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160890_Kingdom_Come-164.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160892_Kingdom_Come-165.jpg


But when Superman grabs him just as the lightning strikes, *poof*, he reverts back into Billy:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160893_Kingdom_Come-168.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160894_Kingdom_Come-169.jpg


This is important because when he 'triple-Shazam'ed' the bomb, he was TOUCHING it:
https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160896_Kingdom_Come-175.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36160897_Kingdom_Come-176.jpg

...So the same pre-established rule would have logically applied: he simultaneously reverted back into Billy just as the lightning strikes hit the bomb -- ergo he was mortal when it detonated.


Not only is this a completely logical assertion(I really don't know how it can be viewed any other way, tbh), but it also makes the most sense. I mean, Captain Marvel was shown and described as Superman's physical equal in EVERY way... Yet he gets vaped/atomized by an explosion that Supes essentially tanked? No way... He was mortal/Billy.

...IMHO.

Good post.

Originally posted by Galan007
All we see is Supes grab ahold of him just before the lightning struck. When the smoke clears, Marvel has reverted back into Billy.

As you said, Marv certainly wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed -- he was just standing there spamming Superman with lightning, and almost certainly never anticipated Supes grabbing him.


...So yes, I think he was definitely part of a conductive loop that reverted him back into Billy. Intelligence notwithstanding, that was pretty much his only weakness.

I thought this as well, at first (see posts with Celey).

However, the way Superman is holding Billy, preventing him from pulling away - when in the panel before, it shows him standing over Superman - plus the art showing the bolt hitting between them (does it hit Billy's arm? Supes? Unclear).

Hence my question about his cape. Does it become totally independent of Billy once separated from him?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Are YOU actually challenging him to a Battlezone match? Dude, I could end this nonsense about superman in one video at the cost of making 3 friends very mad but their privacy and friendship is FAR more important than a comic book site. But I could easily prove that superman has NEVER overpowered CM, BA, DD or any equal and he was going all out. Those mental blocks are in place to keep him from hurting FAR weaker people, NOT the likes of CM, BA,DD etc. One minute he had to be taught by mongul Jr to drop mental blocks, the next Lois makes him do it, then the next he does it on his own. All the while the character HIMSELF had admitted he's going all out. Very easy battlezone to win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought this as well, at first (see posts with Celey).

However, the way Superman is holding Billy, preventing him from pulling away - when in the panel before, it shows him standing over Superman - plus the art showing the bolt hitting between them (does it hit Billy's arm? Supes? Unclear).

Hence my question about his cape. Does it become totally independent of Billy once separated from him? As I mentioned: Marvel yells "Shazam" a final time, Supes grabs him just before the lightning strikes, and *poof*, he reverts back into Billy... Obviously Supes readjusted his stance in the amount of time it took the smoke to clear(ie. when he initially grabbed Marvel he was still on the ground in the crawling position, but when the smoke cleared he was standing upright.) However, there is absolutely NOTHING that alludes to Superman overpowering *Marvel* in any way/shape/form... Just his mortal counterpart: Billy(grabbing someone=/=overpowering them.)


As for the cape: yeah, on E22 it must be independent from Marv once removed from his person... Not to mention that Ross obviously intended to keep the cape around for symbolical purposes, so it was going to endure no matter what. /shrug

I don't see the point in taking the bolts in his person. If he was really intent on blowing up a doomsday bomb, it's more logical to have his bolts hit the weapon directly.

Also to me Supes did hold him in place for however brief it was... Basically to prevent him from replicating his trick.