Outlander(HoT) Vs Revan.

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Haschwalth
Force:
Lightsabers:
All out:

Who wins.

Haschwalth
@Darthant66

DarthAnt66
End KOTET?

Azronger
Revan

Haschwalth
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
End KOTET?
Yes

Emperordmb
Outlander easily. He beat and surpassed Waylin, and will surpass Walkorion given five years...

Ima go with Revan in all seriousness.

FreshestSlice
Outlander. Revan doesn't compete with Vaylin in raw power and is an overall inferior combatant to Arcann.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not sure. Breyon prolly right, though. Prolly not about the inferior to Arcann part.

FreshestSlice
You're right. That guy who tried to palm Vitiate's lightning was a combat genius. thumb up

Arcann's probably the physically adept combatant seen in game. It definitely isn't Revan. uhuh

Haschwalth
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're right. That guy who tried to palm Vitiate's lightning was a combat genius. thumb up

Arcann's probably the physically adept combatant seen in game. It definitely isn't Revan. uhuh

Or maybe, a lightsaber couldn't provide a necessary defense against his Charged Lightning?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're right. That guy who tried to palm Vitiate's lightning was a combat genius. thumb up

Arcann's probably the physically adept combatant seen in game. It definitely isn't Revan. uhuh

I think Arcann is a better swordsman than Revan, if not due to skill then due to physicality. That said, as powerful as Arcann is, he ultimately gets taken down by Revan's force abilities.

DarthAnt66
Revan wins solidly.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I think Arcann is a better swordsman than Revan, if not due to skill then due to physicality. That said, as powerful as Arcann is, he ultimately gets taken down by Revan's force abilities.
I really doubt Revan is taking him down if Valkorion's didn't. It's not like it even hurt Arcann on Asylum. The fall did. And it's also not like Valkorion was holding back given the massive amount of deaths.

It's time to put Revan in the trash heap where he belongs. Boyd obviously thought so when he made him lose to not one, not two, but there shit strike teams.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Outlander. Revan doesn't compete with Vaylin in raw power and is an overall inferior combatant to Arcann.
I can get with the first assertion, I'd like to hear a case for the second

FreshestSlice
I think Revan is terrible because he has a shit track record.

darthbane77
Revan wins, solidly. Nothing the Outlander has implies superiority to Revan in the slightest, save for maybe saber skill, which is made irrelevant by Revan's superior augmentation and precognition anyway.

Sinious
Outlander wins after a spectacular fight. Originally posted by Emperordmb
Outlander easily. He beat and surpassed Waylin, and will surpass Walkorion given five years...

Ima go with Revan in all seriousness. kys

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
Outlander wins after a spectacular fight.
Why?

FreshestSlice
Ant, you need to handle your cultists. At least get them to make actual arguments.

DarthAnt66
Fresh your arguments are generally worse than no arguments. wink

FreshestSlice
Which is why you haven't encouraged the drones to speak up for Revan with their own?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I really doubt Revan is taking him down if Valkorion's didn't. It's not like it even hurt Arcann on Asylum. The fall did. And it's also not like Valkorion was holding back given the massive amount of deaths.

It's time to put Revan in the trash heap where he belongs. Boyd obviously thought so when he made him lose to not one, not two, but there shit strike teams.

Valkorion took him down. If there wasn't a ledge, we're talking brutal death via electricity. Plus Valkorion can either:

A: Block Arcann's saber strikes casually in Chapter 16 (my theory)

B: Gift the Outlander the power to casually block Arcann's saber strikes (your theory)

Arcann ain't shit to Valkorion. Revan would have fared better on Asylum.

FreshestSlice
That doesn't make any sense, but regardless Valkorion's lightning didn't hurt Arcann even at full strength. Revan on the other hand, got fried.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That doesn't make any sense, but regardless Valkorion's lightning didn't hurt Arcann even at full strength. Revan on the other hand, got fried.

Lol, they aren't comparable, the one against arcann wasn't a charged version.
Not to mention it was from a good proportionally weakend Valkorian.

The one against Revan was a huge build up of Novel Vitiates full power.

Sinious
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why? Honestly, they can both get stupidly good placement via scaling if you take it seriously like Az usually does. If taken seriously, the scaling he gets from Act 1 Thor is better than anything Revan has going for him, including the Malak > Kun quote.

Hollistically, Outlander is like a bettered version of Revan. He constantly succeeds against a stronger Vitiate, where Revan's biggest achievement against him is delaying the war.

In SoR, they don't even consider to join Revan in the fight against Vitiate. The fact that they don't think they stand a chance as a group who knows both Vitiate's power and Revan's power tells me how big the gap must be between pre-Ziost Vitiate and peak Revan, let alone Valkorion and Revan.

On the other hand, you see near prime Outlander walking up to Vaylin, who in return could challenge spirit Valkorion even before she was unchained.

Lastly, I think most of Outlander's feats are defensive force application that lets us assess how powerful he is. I often make a case for Outlander being a better duelist, if not a much better duelist than he is with his force usage. I think he beats Revan via superiority in sabers, even though he is probably not as powerful or masterful in the Force as Revan.

AncientPower
People still believe the Malak > Kun accolade? Pre-prime Kun > Vitiate, half a century prior to Revan makes it nonsensical.

Sinious
My point wasn't to prove HoT > Revan via scaling. Heck, Revan gets scaling from Act I Thor too, as prime Revan is above SoR HoT/Thor. Just that early career HoT is more impressive than (not as) early career Revan, as badly as I worded it.

Also, didn't you concede to Vitiate > Kun or am I confusing you with someone? And wasn't the kun quote in complete encylopedia, which came out in 2008?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Lol, they aren't comparable, the one against arcann wasn't a charged version.
Not to mention it was from a good proportionally weakend Valkorian.

The one against Revan was a huge build up of Novel Vitiates full power.
Wrong. We're talking about the time in the Throne Room were Arcann was knocked unconscious. Not that it matters since the attack on Asylum was a bigger storm than the attack on Kass anyway. They're comparable.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrong. We're talking about the time in the Throne Room were Arcann was knocked unconscious. Not that it matters since the attack on Asylum was a bigger storm than the attack on Kass anyway. They're comparable.
Lol, comparing by size is stupid, and useless. Unless you are going to argue that Lightning from Valkorian was above RotJ Sidious's lightning kek.

The difference is, it was never charged with Arcann, in both instances, it required Vitiate's charged full power for Revan, otherwise he wouldn't of needed an opportunity, after Revan healed himself to strike him done. With Normal force lightning.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Sinious
My point wasn't to prove HoT > Revan via scaling. Heck, Revan gets scaling from Act I Thor too, as prime Revan is above SoR HoT/Thor. Just that early career HoT is more impressive than (not as) early career Revan, as badly as I worded it.

Also, didn't you concede to Vitiate > Kun or am I confusing you with someone? And wasn't the kun quote in complete encylopedia, which came out in 2008?

Not even close, MW Revan has been regarded stronger than Nihilus, potential put above Exar kun who is above thon,who sealed the energies of ambria, manipulated the energies of malachor turning thousands to the darkside, HoT has nothing on him early career, even late lmao.

Act 3 HoT is comparable to Meetra possibly.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Lol, comparing by size is stupid, and useless. Unless you are going to argue that Lightning from Valkorian was above RotJ Sidious's lightning kek.

It's not least size but also the amount of damage caused, but regardless I've always argued for Sidious being Valkorion's clear inferior in regards to this anyway. Valkorion's feats with Lightning are unmatched in the setting. As are his feats with drain.


One, that clearly isn't true, Valkorion "charges" his lightning in all three encounters. It was never said that Vitiate needed his "full power" to counteract Revan, he clearly didn't as Revan was almost immediately overwhelmed, and all the reasoning after this is needless babbling to cover for the fact that this is completely irrelevant unless Vitiate has not grown in power since the Revan novel, despite being said to grow in power constantly and with each death.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not least size but also the amount of damage caused, but regardless I've always argued for Sidious being Valkorion's clear inferior in regards to this anyway. Valkorion's feats with Lightning are unmatched in the setting. As are his feats with drain.


One, that clearly isn't true, Valkorion "charges" his lightning in all three encounters. It was never said that Vitiate needed his "full power" to counteract Revan, he clearly didn't as Revan was almost immediately overwhelmed, and all the reasoning after this is needless babbling to cover for the fact that this is completely irrelevant unless Vitiate has not grown in power since the Revan novel, despite being said to grow in power constantly and with each death.

If we go by that logic though, Even tulak hords TK feats put Valkorian to shame. Does that mean Tulak is more powerful with Tk than Valk? Hell no. Potency is a thing my friend, especially within the starwars universe. Taking flashy things as better is flatout wrong, when Valkorian Knocks out Arcann in a powerful burst not even close to the size, of what he used as a spirit, as he needed to while weakend against Arcann.

No, he only did against the strike team act 2, and against Revan, he never did again, because he never needed to, and He was imbuing the outlander with power, before he unleashed the lightning against arcann, not charging it.

It was obvious that he did, need his full power, for the first time in his life he was That pissed, not to mention he used the "full power of the force" against a droid. He also couldn't repeat that charged version again as he needed, to find an opening in Revans defence afterwards. Everything points towards Vitiate putting his full effort into it, which was backed by vitiate building up his energy.

anyway yes he grew in power, a fair bit, but that doesn't apply to Spirit Valkorian who was weakend. They stood no literal chance when they faced Valkorian in person/same position, just like Revan wouldn't, at Valkorians full strength.

Sinious
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Not even close, MW Revan has been regarded stronger than Nihilus, potential put above Exar kun who is above thon,who sealed the energies of ambria, manipulated the energies of malachor turning thousands to the darkside, HoT has nothing on him early career, even late lmao. Act I Hero is stronger than Barsen'thor, who in return defeated Lord Vivicar. Vivicar was amped by HUNDREDS of Jedi, and Thor in return was extremely weakened while facing Vivicar. Seems like HoT has something going for him. thumb up
LMFAO what a retard

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Sinious
Act I Hero is stronger than Barsen'thor, who in return defeated Lord Vivicar. Vivicar was amped by HUNDREDS of Jedi, and Thor in return was extremely weakened while facing Vivicar. Seems like HoT has something going for him. thumb up

Christ, when will people stop parroting this nonsense? This shit was debunked years ago. Literally right before the Vivicar boss fight, he tells the player:



But, I guess it's to be expected that you wouldn't know that, since the primary source of your side's information is still Neph. laughing out loud

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I knew that. Irrelevant to the Vivicar wank tbh. thumb up

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Christ, when will people stop parroting this nonsense? This shit was debunked years ago. Literally right before the Vivicar boss fight, he tells the player:



But, I guess it's to be expected that you wouldn't know that, since the primary source of your side's information is still Neph. laughing out loud
wait, so that baresnthor scaling is bunk?

NewGuy01
It don't think it's irrelevant at all, at least in regards to the way it's being used; while it's true that Terrak Morrhage invented a powerful ritual, there's nothing to suggest defeating him in combat is particularly impressive. That feat on part of the Barsen'thor isn't as good as Jaden Korr's similar one, as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
wait, so that baresnthor scaling is bunk?

Yup, just like the rest of the garbage Neph peddled back in the day.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It's not necessary to the wank, kek.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It don't think it's irrelevant at all, at least in regards to the way it's being used; while it's true that Terrak Morrhage invented an impressive ritual, he has little to say for himself in the way of his combat abilities. That feat on part of the Barsen'thor isn't even as impressive as Jaden Korr's similar one, as far as I can tell.

I'd need to rewatch Act 1, but the idea I got is that Morrhage is literally using his knowledge of the Jedi(from Parkanas Tark's mind) to inflict a plague upon hundreds of Jedi masters across the galaxy that drives them batshit insane, and binds them to his will, (if he dies, they die). Sounds pretty damn powerful to me.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It don't think it's irrelevant at all, at least in regards to the way it's being used; while it's true that Terrak Morrhage invented a powerful ritual, there's nothing to suggest defeating him in combat is particularly impressive. That feat on part of the Barsen'thor isn't as good as Jaden Korr's similar one, as far as I can tell.
.
What did Korr do?

Sinious
I think it was Nova who brought it to my attention. I wouldn't really argue any one Jedi/Sith is naturally above hundreds of Jedi anyway, let alone an apprentice. I always viewed it as Vivicar starts receiving the amp recently but was far from done. I liked the exaggerated version of that as a counter to some of Az's crap though. Thanks NG. thumb down

Other than that, it is still insanely impressive to defeat the guy who can pull off things of this sort, while extremely weakened.

NewGuy01
@Skillz,

Yeah, from what I remember it's similar to the ritual Sidious and Dooku performed on Yoda, affecting Jedi that had some sort of prior relationship with him from a distance. That said, I don't think he just up and mind****ed the masters all at once or anything like that, but rather plagued them one-by-one, but I could be misremembering.

Either way, it's still a pretty damn far cry from being amped by the force energies of hundreds of Jedi Masters, as he himself freely admits.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by NewGuy01
@Skillz,

Yeah, from what I remember it's similar to the ritual Sidious and Dooku performed on Yoda, affecting Jedi that had some sort of prior relationship with him from a distance. That said, I don't think he just up and mind****ed the masters all at once or anything like that, but rather plagued them one-by-one, but I could be misremembering.

Either way, it's still a pretty damn far cry from being amped by the force energies of hundreds of Jedi Masters, as he himself freely admits.

I mean sure, it's a far cry from being amped by hundreds of Jedi Masters, but I'd argue making hundreds of Jedi Masters insane/slaves to your will is the next best thing. The plague being so powerful that it takes an ancient jedi ritual that weakens the user to cut off the Morrhage's hold on a single master.

NewGuy01
I feel like trying to scale Morrhage's personal power by the number of his plague's victims is like trying to scale Muur's power off of the enormous number of folks that turned into rackghouls over the milennia as a result of his sorcery.

Unless I'm missing something, the effects on the individuals he plagues are what matters, since theres no indication that he spends power maintaining the sickness of his plurality of victims.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Sinious
Act I Hero is stronger than Barsen'thor, who in return defeated Lord Vivicar. Vivicar was amped by HUNDREDS of Jedi, and Thor in return was extremely weakened while facing Vivicar. Seems like HoT has something going for him. thumb up
LMFAO what a retard

Doesn't matter, if he scales to that or not. Still not comparable to being around the Same level as Vitiate, even without the 900 years of growth after RoN, which was 8000 sith lords and the very force/life of a planet. Or Nihilus, consuming a Jedi colony/Planet.

Your down play of Meetra is real.
She carved up an academy of Sith assassins then Traya on a dark side Nexus,

regarded by scourge 300 years later as the republics greatest heros.

"Revan was both Jedi Master and Sith Lord. His student, the Exile, defeated the Sith triumvirate. They were your greatest heroes."

Source: The Old Republic

This coming from the guy, who

As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

It's a clear testament to Meetra's power, as from all the Jedi he had killed Meetra was said the greatest.

Also
"Revan, the Exile and I were all Jedi-trained. We all resisted the Emperor. What Sith have done so?"

"That was... a surprise. In three centuries, I expected to see one test his strength against the Dark Lord. But those strong enough to challenge him are killed young, or co-opted into the Dark Council."
Source: The Old Republic

No one within 300 years could resist, him till start of act 3 HoT, well not even then.
This includes Marr/etc.

Sinious
Meetra is comparable to novel Scourge, and Act II HoT is comparable to prime Scourge. Scourge had gone through things that makes it clear that he is far better in the game than he is in the novel. Act III HoT arguably has a significant advantage over prime Scourge, yet you're saying that act III Hero is maybe comparable to Meetra?

MythLord
Novel Meetra and novel Scourge are comparable(though I'd wager Surik is superior). KoTOR Meetra's definitely gonna waste novel Meetra or Scourge in a duel, though.

SunRazer
The novel versions were comparable by Scourge's estimation (he only saw her fight thugs) on a dark side nexus. Surik is pretty obviously his better, per their fight against Nyriss.

But yeah, game Exile would stomp either.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Lol, they aren't comparable, the one against arcann wasn't a charged version.
Not to mention it was from a good proportionally weakend Valkorian.

The one against Revan was a huge build up of Novel Vitiates full power.
You are assuming that Vitiate at the time of Revan and Valkorion at the time of Asylum are on even playing field.

Valkorion's FLS packed so much intensity that even with the bulk of it directed towards Arcann and the latter's effort to block it, it was releasing bolts in the surroundings and a single hit was sufficient to down a military-grade Starship in the vicinity. In-fact, collateral damage was so great that flights seized in the region altogether.

Yes, Valkorion at the time of Asylum was relatively weaker in comparison to his form in Chapter 1 but was he weaker than Vitiate as of Revan? I don't get this impression. Before the Asylum incident, he wiped out an entire contingent of Zakuul Knights and Droids with a single wave of energy; a contingent that would have wiped out the Outlander and his allies otherwise. Heck, Valkorion was tinkering with the Force-sensitivity of the Outlander in order to transform him into a suitable Voice.

It isn't hard to assume that Arcann has better defenses than Revan.

Originally posted by AncientPower
People still believe the Malak > Kun accolade? Pre-prime Kun > Vitiate, half a century prior to Revan makes it nonsensical.
I don't think it is wise to take Exar Kun's hype at face value when Vitiate was a concealed threat at the time and no source took him into consideration. Otherwise, Exar Kun > Abeloth and the Son also.

Vitiate would be miles ahead of Exar Kun at any point.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Sinious
Meetra is comparable to novel Scourge,

LMFAO.

She was absolutely outclassing him.

She was, whilst caught in mid-dive, capable of standing her ground through skill against the undivided attention of Nyriss, until she lost out in Force augmentation. Whereas Scourge was two-shotted by Nyriss' split attention.

Meetra was facing off against, and killing, at least three Imperial Guards, in the same amount of time Scourge was facing nobody but Captain Yarri until one of them left Meetra's side. Whilst in the presence of the Emperor, which is stated to passively block a Jedi's connection to the light side of the Force. Whilst in the Dark Citadel, a focal point of Dromund Kaas.

All whilst on a nexus-where Scourge himself has confirmed he is significantly amped-which turned Kyle Katarn to the dark side, completely blinded Jaina and Mara Jade's connections to the Force, and was giving the most powerful Jedi of all-time serious problems.

This is thousands of years after Dromund Kaas had been abandoned, by the way.

Not to mention that this was after Meetra's spirit and psyche had almost been broken by Nathema's void. Which is stated to have gradually gotten better over the centures, since Meetra had travelled there. A place where Jedi and Sith alike are literally killed by said Void unless they have a metric shit ton of willpower.

In which way are they comparable?

AncientPower
So it probably is.



It's a statement, not hype.



Coming from you, this is golden.



Still very much within Sith space.



Considering the Sith Emperor has existed since 2008, when the TOTJ Omnibus Volume 2 was published, I don't see the problem.

Not to mention that the age of the source, is not itself a derogatory factor, only a contradiction would make this an issue. No such contradiction exists.



Abeloth is sealed in a world which uses the Force to conceal her, quite literally, from the outer galaxy. Mortis doesn't even technically exist within the same space-time as the rest of the galaxy, so no.



Funny, because that sounds highly debatable at best.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
So it probably is.


It's a statement, not hype.



Coming from you, this is golden.
From a source that doesn't recognize Sith Emperor's existence, period.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Still very much within Sith space.
So?

Sith Emperor >> Exar Kun

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering the Sith Emperor has existed since 2008, when the TOTJ Omnibus Volume 2 was published, I don't see the problem.
SWTOR game was officially released in 2011.

Sith Emperor's powers and hype were properly established in 2012.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not to mention that the age of the source, is not itself a derogatory factor, only a contradiction would make this an issue. No such contradiction exists
I am sorry but this is your personal opinion.

Eat this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641496.html

Originally posted by AncientPower
Abeloth is sealed in a world which uses the Force to conceal her, quite literally, from the outer galaxy. Mortis doesn't even technically exist within the same space-time as the rest of the galaxy, so no.

Funny, because that sounds highly debatable at best.
Lame excuses

"The darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger."

I am sorry but Exar Kun's hype cannot be taken at face value anymore. thumb up

Haschwalth
No i'm not.

Refer to my argument about Potency of attacks. Bigger ain't necessarily better within the SW universe e.g. turbo blasters don't cause massive explosions etc, in which a gigaton explosion should.



Nah, this is far more impressive than wiping out zakuul knights. Tinkering with force sensitive doesn't prove superiority only knowledge, anyawy he was already altering peoples life spans(Scourge/Revan) which tbh is more impressive.

And that's ignoring the Fact, that Revan went up against Novel Vitiates full powered lightning(charged), while Arcann didn't.

AncientPower
The Sith Emperor has been referred to as a character since 2008, I vividly remember reading the early statements about him on the swtor website.

Considering that sourcebooks and actual books are entirely different things, and furthermore that said sourcebooks are secondary sources. I don't care.

In other words, you're dismissing quotes you don't like because you lack the argument necessary to counter it? What's new. . .

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Haschwalth
No i'm not.

Refer to my argument about Potency of attacks. Bigger ain't necessarily better within the SW universe e.g. turbo blasters don't cause massive explosions etc, in which a gigaton explosion should.
I have seen it.

Again, on what grounds are you assuming that Valkorion's FLS was relatively lacking in potency? Because Arcann withstood it?

Arcann is neither a Jedi and nor a Sith; his defensive technique seems to be different from that of Revan.

https://preview.ibb.co/b5opEF/Arcann.png
free picture hosting sites

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Nah, this is far more impressive than wiping out zakuul knights.
Vitiate's assault on that Dark Council is of entirely unknown nature.

One-shotting a large contingent comprising of numerous Knights of Zakuul and droids in a split-second moment is an equally impressive showing by any measure. Nothing suggests that this attack was relatively less potent than the attack on that Dark Council; could be more potent in-fact.

Those Knights of Zakuul were going toe-to-toe with the Outlander and his allies and were on the verge of overwhelming them. In-fact, a single Knight was about to strike Lana Beniko down.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Tinkering with force sensitive doesn't prove superiority only knowledge, anyawy he was already altering peoples life spans(Scourge/Revan) which tbh is more impressive.
Valkorion was tinkering with the Force-sensitivity of the Outlander on his own, without employing arcane machines for it. In the case of Revan and Lord Scourge, he utilized arcane machines.

Valkorion had clearly grown in power and in his understanding of the ways of the Force since his time as the Sith Emperor.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
And that's ignoring the Fact, that Revan went up against Novel Vitiates full powered lightning(charged), while Arcann didn't.
And that attack could still be weaker than that of Valkorion's.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
The Sith Emperor has been referred to as a character since 2008, I vividly remember reading the early statements about him on the swtor website.
It changes nothing; Sith Emperor was a completely unknown character back then.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considering that sourcebooks and actual books are entirely different things, and furthermore that said sourcebooks are secondary sources. I don't care.

In other words, you're dismissing quotes you don't like because you lack the argument necessary to counter it? What's new. . .
What nonsense. I am looking at this matter from an objective standpoint.

Exar Kun was strongest in his Empire and in known parts of the galaxy at most. Sith Emperor, Abeloth and the Son represent concealed threats at the time in-universe view] and not established out-of-universe view]. Very straightforward.

More importantly, relevant author agrees with me.

Haschwalth
I have seen it.



Maybe because, Arcann couldn't fully dominate an Outlander, who technically hasn't grown much at the the time. Since the events of SOR, you may argue, Revan is stronger than in the Novel, but The Gap was too massive, for the Outlander(Hot) to of been comparable. As he still ragdolled HoT after being extremely weakend.(aka ToS), and still needed light Revans help.

Being light/Dark doesn't help lmao. It's all about the Raw power, in which Arcann managed to deflect, Revan actually had a harder time as he absorbed it. Anyway Revan is primary sub for Dual philosophies.





Sudden, meaning done quickly
Flash, "a sudden brief burst of bright light."
Steps(stairs), they didn't move far
Yeah Vitiate killed them all with lightning in an instance, almost instantaneously.

You mean a outlander/etc who has been fighting for ages, and no it was lana who was in trouble, they blocked outlanders route to save her. The dark council would demolish, the outlander/etc.



Understanding of force does not equate to Raw power. True both are linear. But not the cause.



Unless there is tangible evidence suggesting it is, i'd go with a no.
People overestimate how Power Valkorian is compared to Novel.

Vitiate, had around marka Ragnos level potential(worthy heir), before RoN, which consumed 8000 weakened sith lords/ Stripped the planet of life/force literally atomising it, then had 900 years of growth. VItiate then grew, another 300 years, with draining Revan, though lost the majority of what he gained, with his childrens/death etc. And never fully Replaced it, till during his Ziost drain. quite frankly Prime valkorian should be 1.5-2 times stronger than his Novel form.
And since he is a spirit. he would be massively weakend, so It wouldn't be suprising if he were, Novel Level, considering, the majority of his growth/potential was achieved pre Novel.

AncientPower
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It changes nothing; Sith Emperor was a completely unknown character back then.

What nonsense. I am looking at this matter from an objective standpoint.

Exar Kun was strongest in his Empire and in known parts of the galaxy at most. Sith Emperor, Abeloth and the Son represent concealed threats at the time in-universe view] and not established out-of-universe view]. Very straightforward.

More importantly, relevant author agrees with me.

Which doesn't matter. He existed at the time, that's all that does. Not that it even matters, Vitiate as of the novel has no accolades placing him above Kun. Kun however, does.

Except, as I've explained, Vitiate is very much within the galaxy as of this point.

Your author isn't relevant at all, this isn't an RPG sourcebook. This is a series written by Tom Veitch, who places Kun well within the tier of one of his other characters. DE Palpatine. If we're using author intent, then Veitch is far more relevant than what you're trying to shove down our throats.

AncientPower
Originally posted by AncientPower
Which doesn't matter. He existed at the time, that's all that does. Not that it even matters,

****ing hell, I've been infected.

FreshestSlice
How is Kun above Vitiate when he's sub-Malak?

Geistalt
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is Kun above Vitiate when he's sub-Malak? It's simple.
Vitiate > Revan > Malak >> Kun > Vitiate

Because quotes. Trust me.thumb up

For real, though: who says those 50 years of power growth were negligible? Kun surpassed all the ancient Sith in 1. And Vitiate had an empire that'd just bend over backwards for him.

Geistalt
The answer is obviously Azronger, the same person who thought the Kun > any other Sith quote should be applied to Vitiate to begin with (when the character was only created after the quote's publication).

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Geistalt
It's simple.
Vitiate > Revan > Malak >> Kun > Vitiate

Because quotes. Trust me.thumb up

For real, though: who says those 50 years of power growth were negligible? Kun surpassed all the ancient Sith in 1. And Vitiate had an empire that'd just bend over backwards for him.
Yeah, but then we'd have to make our own arguments with feats as well instead of just shutting everything down with accolades.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Maybe because, Arcann couldn't fully dominate an Outlander, who technically hasn't grown much at the the time. Since the events of SOR, you may argue, Revan is stronger than in the Novel, but The Gap was too massive, for the Outlander(Hot) to of been comparable. As he still ragdolled HoT after being extremely weakend.(aka ToS), and still needed light Revans help.
You overlooked this key revelation:

He evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander, his most powerful opponent.

- Knights of the Eternal Throne Official Profiles: Valkorion

The Outlander was a veteran of the Great Galactic War:

You are the Outlander, a veteran of the Great Galactic War and the commander of a powerful team of hand-picked allies.

- Knights of the Eternal Throne Official Profiles: The Outlander

It is already established that Barsen'thor was instrumental in the defeat of Children of the Emperor and Hero of Tython was instrumental in the defeat of Emperor himself, during the Great Galactic War. Later, one of them (Hero of Tython presumably) played a major role in stopping Revan on Yavin IV.

Conversely, Arcann was also a dominating presence on the battlefield and was instrumental in reversing the gains of the Jedi Oder. In single combat, he defeated any Jedi and/or Sith who crossed his path and even dominated the Outlander - greatest of them all.

"My son is too strong. You need my power. Only together can we strike him down."

Fate of the Outlander upon refusal to accept Valkorion's assistance:

_t3ap_0Ui1I

Even though Arcann and Revan are not directly compared in the lore, nothing suggests that Arcann is relatively inferior in raw power. In-fact, probability of opposite is high.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Being light/Dark doesn't help lmao. It's all about the Raw power, in which Arcann managed to deflect, Revan actually had a harder time as he absorbed it. Anyway Revan is primary sub for Dual philosophies.
My point was in regards to the techniques employed for defense against similar attacks in both cases. Revan received extensive training in the ways of the Jedi and employed Tutaminis to stop Vitiate's FLS but it didn't work. Conversely, Arcann's command of the Force is implied to be superior to that of any Jedi and/or Sith and he employed a different technique to stop Valkorion's FLS, with success.

I just don't see the possibility of Valkorion's FLS to be lacking in potency in comparison to his FLS that he employed against Revan centuries ago. In-fact, Valkorion's FLS caused extensive collateral damage which implies greater intensity. I credit Arcann's knowledge of relevant techniques that provided him the upper hand over Revan in his shoes.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Sudden, meaning done quickly
Flash, "a sudden brief burst of bright light."
Steps(stairs), they didn't move far
Yeah Vitiate killed them all with lightning in an instance, almost instantaneously.
I do not recall identification of any technique employed in this assault so far; it could be a potent wave of Dark Side energy or some other kind of Sith Sorcery.

This assault felled all members of the Dark Council with the exception of Darth Lokess; she was knocked unconscious, but imprisoned and tortured to death later.

So?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
You mean a outlander/etc who has been fighting for ages, and no it was lana who was in trouble, they blocked outlanders route to save her. The dark council would demolish, the outlander/etc.
The Outlander and his allies were busy exploring a Starship named Gravestone earlier; they had rest during this time.

We are comparing two AoE attacks of Emperor in the context of potency; one from Vitiate against a rebellious Dark Council; and the other from Valkorion against a large contingent of Knights of Zakuul and droids. In both cases, Emperor floored his enemies. Your argument is that the attack against the Dark Council is more potent but my counterargument is that this cannot be established, specially in the light of the fact that Darth Lokess survived, albeit unconscious.

The contingent here could be a match for that rebellious Dark Council in the battlefield, depending upon its size, because it came close to overwhelming the Outlander, Lana Beniko and Senya at its visible strength and reinforcements were expected. Please keep in mind that Knights of Zakuul are every bit as good as well-trained Jedi or even better on average.

However, no matter the odds, Valkorion is laughably above them all.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Understanding of force does not equate to Raw power. True both are linear. But not the cause.
Valkorion also needed a stronger body this time in order to utilize it as his Voice, he risked killing a lesser Voice otherwise. This was not the case with his earlier Voices during his tenure as Emperor of the Sith. wink

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Unless there is tangible evidence suggesting it is, i'd go with a no.
People overestimate how Power Valkorian is compared to Novel.

Vitiate, had around marka Ragnos level potential(worthy heir), before RoN, which consumed 8000 weakened sith lords/ Stripped the planet of life/force literally atomising it, then had 900 years of growth. VItiate then grew, another 300 years, with draining Revan, though lost the majority of what he gained, with his childrens/death etc. And never fully Replaced it, till during his Ziost drain. quite frankly Prime valkorian should be 1.5-2 times stronger than his Novel form.
And since he is a spirit. he would be massively weakend, so It wouldn't be suprising if he were, Novel Level, considering, the majority of his growth/potential was achieved pre Novel.
See above.

I don't think that Valkorion can be deemed weakened as a spirit; weakened nonetheless. However, even as a weakened spirit, Valkorion was capable of mass destruction, and more powerful than any living being in history.

At his core, Emperor is noted to be:

A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion

Emphasis mine. Valkorion was still a being of unfathomable power when he assaulted Arcann on Asylum. It is impossible to say where he stood in his own strength at this point but judging from the fact that he needed a stronger Voice, I would place him above Vitiate as in Revan.

S_W_LeGenD

FreshestSlice
Just assuming the Outlander is the HoT to help your argument isn't valid. And half the shit about "needing a stronger Voice," is just as true as the last time you said it. Not at all.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Just assuming the Outlander is the HoT to help your argument isn't valid. And half the shit about "needing a stronger Voice," is just as true as the last time you said it. Not at all.
It is not my fault if you failed to grasp the purpose of Vitiate latching onto the Outlander and tinkering with the latter's Force-sensitivity subsequently in order to convert the Outlander into his Voice when he was strong enough. This was the plan all along.

FreshestSlice
He literally tells you why he did it. He needed Vaylin's "spirit" to take over the Outlander's mind, a plan which didn't even succeed. I don't really give a shit about your opinion on the matter, especially when compared to statements from Valkorion himself. He was not planning to turn the Outlander into a Voice. He was going to "hollow" out his/her mind and take their body, obviously not the same thing as a Voice because a Voice can exist at the same time as whatever body he's using, Valkorion existing before even the Revan novel. How about instead of waxing yourself philosophical, you "educate yourself on the ground realities," of the subject you're speaking on.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Just assuming the Outlander is the HoT to help your argument isn't valid. And half the shit about "needing a stronger Voice," is just as true as the last time you said it. Not at all.

Scourge's vision essentially proves it's the Outlander. A Jedi wearing the HoT's face strikes down the Emperor, "takes a crown from his head," and "wields his power," absolutely referring to the throne and the fleet/empire. Kek.

FreshestSlice
Visions are what can be. Only Sith think they are what must be. That's Star Wars 101, you ****ing scrub.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He literally tells you why he did it. He needed Vaylin's "spirit" to take over the Outlander's mind, a plan which didn't even succeed. I don't really give a shit about your opinion on the matter, especially when compared to statements from Valkorion himself. He was not planning to turn the Outlander into a Voice. He was going to "hollow" out his/her mind and take their body, obviously not the same thing as a Voice because a Voice can exist at the same time as whatever body he's using, Valkorion existing before even the Revan novel. How about instead of waxing yourself philosophical, you "educate yourself on the ground realities," of the subject you're speaking on.
Excuse me? What was the point of Valkorion tinkering with the Force-sensitivity of the Outlander Knights of the Fallen Empire]?

Secondly, in Chapter 9 of Knights of the Eternal Throne:-

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power...worthy of preserving my spirit." (Valkorion)

"Now I take your body as your own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor." (Valkorion)

Struggle to convert the Outlander into a Voice ensued next for which hollowing out his mind was necessary.

The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor.

- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Vaylin was a threat and had to be removed. Doesn't make sense to resurrect her.

Take your own advice before you try to educate me on the ground realities of this subject, my friend.

FreshestSlice

Haschwalth
Most powerful Opponent, aka in present tense, Revan is dead, thus he cannot apply to it. If it said 'ever' or all time, then it would be a different case.


So? Revan was a veteran of two galactic wars, ultimately means nothing, Satele is a veteran of the GGW, same with literally all the Jedi council/Dark council/any solider worth their weight, ain't a testament to power.



And? it proves nothing, they helped play a role in defeating Vitiate. And Revan absolutely dominated the heck out of any single one of them, in SoR events.

Arcann dominating on the field means nothing, when he couldn't fully dominate the outlander first confrontation, meaning he couldn't ragdoll the outlander, who is far inferior to Revan. The Very best of the Sith and Jedi, were completely dominated/Ragdolled by Revan. Arcann doesn't have a chance in repeating Revan's feats on Yavin.

Outlander needs some of Valkorians energy so?



Any Jedi/Sith "alive" thus doesn't apply to Revan, as no Jedi or Sith come close to Revan yet. Cool Arcann managed to apply a Barrier Technique, which diverted the majorty of Valks power, and? Its not comparable to using tutaminis in which one absorbs all the power.


Potency, do I have to repeat myself, Novel Vitiate lightning should be able to already dominate Force barriers capable of resisting, Massive Tk feats.(Moving space ships/ etc), which are far more impressive than his lightning.


The point is wiping out 10 dark council members within a matter of moments is far more impressive, wiping average knights/droids. You know the struggles of those sith and how they got there.



Before they had to cleave there way out and fight off waves of sky troopers/Knights, waiting for Senya to arrive, only for more appear. Nah, they had been fightning awhile.

Maybe Vitiate has a bit more control when it comes to killing, he purposely kept her alive, because i'm pretty sure she was one of the ring leaders. either that or she was strong enough to survive it. The point is 10 Of the galaxies strongest sith fell in a flash, without time to move far. A meetra tier opponent can cleve her way through an academy full of sith assassins.



I'm not denying Valkorian grew in strength with his physical form. I'm saying Knowledge doesn't equal Power, Novel Vitiate could probably do the same, with the correct knowledge.

He needed a strengthen body to hold is spirit and? why not Vaylin? why not Arcann? all are above/equal HoT and capable.



So? Novel Vitiate was capable of doing a Ziost, as stated by Revan. Nihilus has done similar/Thon has matched Planet Razing energies. Who is weaker than Kotor Revan. And the Fact remains Valkorian with Body went from casually knocking out Arcann to, having to put a fair bit of effort into it, He lost a Ton of power, Vitiate still technically had Valkorian at the time anyway.



That quote is in past tense, meaning it applies to Vitiate of his early forms, meaning he has regarded to have unfathomable power during Novel Revan.
I'm sorry what? Valkorian tends to be stronger with a body than without, so it can't really scale that way.

S_W_LeGenD
Complete load of crap. Either you were drunk while typing this nonsense or you need some introspection.

Senya informed Arcann that Valkorion is attempting to takeover the Outlander but the latter is resisting, as in Chapter 9. Valkorion did not attempt to takeover the Outlander earlier because the latter was not strong enough to handle his power.

I don't know why you are even bothering to comment on matters that you failed to grasp. You need to revisit your drinking habits.

S_W_LeGenD
@Haschwalth

Read this response in full before you respond. Piecing the bits of a response together is useful in capturing the essence of an argument; individual bits are in accordance with the flow of discussion but do not complete the picture on their own.

1/2

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Most powerful Opponent, aka in present tense, Revan is dead, thus he cannot apply to it. If it said 'ever' or all time, then it would be a different case.


So? Revan was a veteran of two galactic wars, ultimately means nothing, Satele is a veteran of the GGW, same with literally all the Jedi council/Dark council/any solider worth their weight, ain't a testament to power.

And? it proves nothing, they helped play a role in defeating Vitiate. And Revan absolutely dominated the heck out of any single one of them, in SoR events.

Arcann dominating on the field means nothing, when he couldn't fully dominate the outlander first confrontation, meaning he couldn't ragdoll the outlander, who is far inferior to Revan. The Very best of the Sith and Jedi, were completely dominated/Ragdolled by Revan. Arcann doesn't have a chance in repeating Revan's feats on Yavin.

Outlander needs some of Valkorians energy so?
We saw Revan unleashing a wave of Dark Side energy that swept his opponents of their feet and sent them crashing into nearby structures, in a setting that was tremendously strong in the Dark Side to begin with. Besides this instance, what concrete evidence can you provide for your claim that Revan was ragdolling his opponents around? We see a Strike Team confronting Revan and succeeding in stopping him without a single casualty. In-fact, Revan was assaulted in similar fashion on a Rakatan structure (earlier) and it cemented his internal fracture. In contrast, Valkorion literally humiliated any Strike Team with his powers that crossed his path but Arcann managed to bend his FLS around. Sorry my friend but evidence is strong with Arcann, not Revan.

Revan and Arcann - both were strong enough to dominate the Outlander in single combat but Revan doesn't have much to showcase in this respect unfortunately. Conversely, Arcann has solid demonstrations of dominating the Outlander:-

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4873116-3155488754-U0L-r.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4873049-1766022748-zhOaT.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873103-9068447334-pcMPk.gif

You can clearly see Arcann ragdolling the Outlander (or close) in the aforementioned instances.

Heck, look at this:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/5372655-0886279691-giphy.gif

Arcann was able to affect Valyin with his power while on the brink of death.

- and his remarkable defense against Valkorion's FLS* on top.

*Same FLS would have floored the Strike Team that confronted Revan on Yavin IV actually.

I clearly see the possibility of Arcann replicating Revan's showings on Yavin IV and then some because he could draw power from that setting much like Revan.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Any Jedi/Sith "alive" thus doesn't apply to Revan, as no Jedi or Sith come close to Revan yet. Cool Arcann managed to apply a Barrier Technique, which diverted the majorty of Valks power, and? Its not comparable to using tutaminis in which one absorbs all the power.
Revan's technique utterly backfired on its wielder in Arcann's shoes; attempting to absorb Emperor's power is like attempting suicide. Arcann pioneered a better method to counter Valkorion's power and his technique worked, which in turn is a testament to Arcann's incredible raw power as well as ingenuity.

Revan's technique is remarkable in its own right but how can be it be deemed superior to that of Arcann's in the aspect of countering stupendously potent powers of Valkorion when it failed in this respect? Pointless subjectivity on your part in this case.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Potency, do I have to repeat myself, Novel Vitiate lightning should be able to already dominate Force barriers capable of resisting, Massive Tk feats.(Moving space ships/ etc), which are far more impressive than his lightning.
Oxymoron

Force lightning and Telekinesis are two completely different powers and affect a target in a different manner accordingly. Force lightning is designed to award 'excruciating punishment' to a living being and is officially recognized as one of the most difficult powers to resist via raw power. Telekinesis can also be employed to punish a living being but in a different manner.

A blast of Telekinesis, potent enough to collapse a wall, might only nudge Revan a bit. However, a stream of Force lightning might penetrate Revan's invisible defenses and force him to respond with his signature Tutaminis technique in order to protect himself from harm; whether Revan would be successful Revan in stopping the barrage, depends upon the strength of his opponent.

Vitiate did not brought Revan to his knees with his telekinetic powers (which would be top-notch as well) but with his FLS. Therefore, I am not sure how an impressive TK feat (in moving a Starship) is 'far more impressive' than an expression of Force lightning which brought one of the most powerful characters in history to his knees (in Revan). Pointless subjectivity on your part in this case again.

Valkorion soundly overwhelmed any opponent with his FLS (including Revan) in a fight. Arcann is the only individual who managed to counter his FLS with an esoteric technique.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The point is wiping out 10 dark council members within a matter of moments is far more impressive, wiping average knights/droids. You know the struggles of those sith and how they got there.
A sledge hammer will kill a mouse as well as a cockroach. wink

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Before they had to cleave there way out and fight off waves of sky troopers/Knights, waiting for Senya to arrive, only for more appear. Nah, they had been fightning awhile.
So? They are (battle-hardened) Force-users with talents honed for combat and any engagement provided them sufficient gaps to replenish their energies with the Force when necessary. This is a useless point.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Maybe Vitiate has a bit more control when it comes to killing, he purposely kept her alive, because i'm pretty sure she was one of the ring leaders. either that or she was strong enough to survive it. The point is 10 Of the galaxies strongest sith fell in a flash, without time to move far. A meetra tier opponent can cleve her way through an academy full of sith assassins.
See my sledge hammer analogy above.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
I'm not denying Valkorian grew in strength with his physical form. I'm saying Knowledge doesn't equal Power, Novel Vitiate could probably do the same, with the correct knowledge.
Valkorion grew in strength at his core - not with his physical forms exclusively. More explanation below.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
He needed a strengthen body to hold is spirit and? why not Vaylin? why not Arcann? all are above/equal HoT and capable.
Centuries earlier, Valkorion was able to create a Voice in beings ranging from a child to a well-trained Force-user; strength of an hollowed out being was not much of a factor to him for a while or he learned from his experiments. Valkorion continued to grow in power with passage of time and it may have narrowed down his pool of options accordingly. KoTFE and KoTET expansions gave me this impression so far.

As for your intriguing query; plot device is a thing, my friend.

Story-wise, judgement is an important factor and even Valkorion was not averse to it. Why didn't Valkorion devastate core worlds of the Republic much like Ziost? He could, but this would be a time-consuming strategy in bringing down the Republic to its knees and it would also draw lot of attention towards him, multiplying his adversaries among his followers and abroad; it is rather convenient to orchestrate a major war in the galaxy to ensure destruction of important institutions and numerous worlds when you have a powerful Empire at your disposal.

Valkorion had alienated the Sith with his actions earlier but he didn't want to alienate the civilization of Zakuul perhaps?

S_W_LeGenD
2/2

Originally posted by Haschwalth
So? Novel Vitiate was capable of doing a Ziost, as stated by Revan. Nihilus has done similar/Thon has matched Planet Razing energies. Who is weaker than Kotor Revan. And the Fact remains Valkorian with Body went from casually knocking out Arcann to, having to put a fair bit of effort into it, He lost a Ton of power, Vitiate still technically had Valkorian at the time anyway.
Revan believed in the possibility of that but this is not affirmed in the novel separately. Vitiate had centuries more to grow until he suffered a setback at the hands of Hero of Tython in Chapter 3 but he replenished his strength by consuming Ziost and and grew further up to Chapter 1 in KoTFE, so I am not sure where to position Vitiate as of Revan but it should be like 60% of his strength demonstrated in Chapter 1 of KoTFE.

Now, I am not sure how much hit Valkorion took in terms of strength from the loss of his Voice in Chapter 1 of KoTFE but his powers remained considerable nonetheless and he sought an extraordinarily powerful Force-sensitive to convert into his Voice since.

Darth Nihilus replicated Ziost by virtue of his extraordinary affinity with Force Drain powers with in turn were fueled by his unprecedented hunger. Ravaging a world with Force Drain powers is a virtually impossible feat otherwise because we know how much raw power it requires from Nathema.

Thon haven't experienced any apocalyptic event; he visited Ambria and trapped the spirits haunting the world in a Wall of Light on Lake Nath.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
That quote is in past tense, meaning it applies to Vitiate of his early forms, meaning he has regarded to have unfathomable power during Novel Revan.
I'm sorry what? Valkorian tends to be stronger with a body than without, so it can't really scale that way.
Valkorion is a being of unfathomable power even in his intangible form, a mere essence of his existence, as his exploits on Ziost suggest. After restoring his strength to his SWTOR base level in his intangible form, he consumed Ziost.

Consumption of Ziost propelled Valkorion even further in power, to the point that he no longer needed arcane machines to influence his subjects (apparent from his actions) and all forms of superweapons were inconsequential to him (his own statement).

Valkorion > Vitiate (intangible) = SWTOR Emperor > Novel Emperor

Now, I am not sure how much drop in strength Valkorion experienced after loosing his Voice in Chapter 1 of KoTFE but I would caution against lowballing his spirit form. And I would also caution against underestimating the raw power of Arcann.

Valkorion did not one-shot Arcann with an FLS but with a Dark Blast.

These are Dark Blasts:

https://i.imgur.com/PcVm1Nf.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.mp4

Dark Blast is a stream of Telekinetic energy and Force lightning incorporated within.

People often confuse Dark Blast with Force lightning and they are wrong in this. Coding of the chapters distinguish these two powers in-fact.

Even on Asylum, Arcann had no answer for a Dark Blast:

https://i.imgur.com/9bNkGgr.mp4

Dark Blast is a new power and I doubt any Jedi and/or Sith can withstand it or has an appropriate counter for it; it materializes so fast that a measured response against it seems unlikely.

Conclusively, both bodied and disembodied incarnations of Valkorion one-shotted Arcann with a Force Blast. Conversely, Arcann could withstand an FLS of Valkorion unlike Revan.

In the nutshell:

Arcann > Revan?
Valkorion (Spirit) > Emperor (Novel)?

wink

ChocolateMuesli
Lol @dark blast.

DarthAnt66
"Arcann > Revan" is lolworthy.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, Revan defeats Arcann 10 times out of 10.

Haschwalth
1/1



This would be a viable argument if, Nox/Wrath weren't darkside users, they were amped just like Revan, and still flung back/treated the same as HoT/barsenthor. Anyway what evidence is their to
suggest Yavins darkside Nexus is as much of a boost as you claim?




During ToS:

" discarded. being thrown through the air."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic



well, if you don't regard the Republic/Imperial soliders, that were killed instantly. It's called Plot, anyway it was regarded as a extremely high diffcult Fight, with the support of Light Revan, and
Battle meditation, while Revan was pretty weakened, as he absorbed the energy from a blast that would of killed, the strike team and all life in a 1km Radius, and tanked the energies from the Machine
capable of wiping out all life.

"So much power... be strong!"

―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"He is strong with the Force! Argh!"

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"Grant me strength! Keep... fighting...!"

―Satele Shan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Cute, Revan was assulted by A striketeam consisting, of 4 slightly weaker Outlanders, aided by Light Revan(The ****er was capable of lifting Massive archways) as a spirit on Yavin in which was stated
that no jedi could survive for long. And 4 Protags capable of each killing
Jedi/sith Masters. and barely manage to Drive him back, while he, spent part of his attention towards channeling vast
amounts of force energy to the machine core, during it, strike team>>>>>Outlander. You can't even remotely compare Revan's fights, with a one on one between Arcann and the outlander.

"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"

―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

i'm sorry what?, that spirit Valkorian never dominated a strike team of that cailbar in his state. The evidence points in Revans favour.



Nah, he has shown cases of Dominating the Outlander, while fighting 7, 3 other force users on the Outlanders level, as well as the 4 other Protags, then proceed to Overwhelm while extremely weakened
, Satele/Marr/Lana etc, and would of Drained them to death without, Light Revan helping the Outlander, free them.

Revan Force Choking him, while fending off multiply enemies.
https://youtu.be/qIuRKTiErEs?t=441

Force pulling the outlander and others in, with no resistance.
https://youtu.be/qIuRKTiErEs?t=456

Flinging the outlander back easily, while simutaniously Dominating Marr/Satele/Lana.
https://youtu.be/qIuRKTiErEs?t=466

Hell even throwing Sabers at the outlander sends him back onto his back
https://youtu.be/qIuRKTiErEs?t=532

Flinging, Outlander back pulversing the pillars behind them.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4737216-4958082507-ezgif.gif
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4788760-2924254181-ezgif.gif

There is no case, Revan is blatently superior.



Since when did being near death affect ones connection to the force? Anakin should of died if that were the case.
Assumptions.
I clearly can't see him coming close.



Revan employed Tutamini's on a charged version of lightning. Arcann used a force barrier to barely divert force lightning. They aren't comparable, Arcann would of been fried if he employeed Tutamini's
on a less advanced version. He used a different technique, it doesn't Prove, infact it proves the opposite if comparing Raw power. absorbing>>>diverting. For all we know if Revan employeed a Force
Barrier it could of diverted to Meetra/scourges location. or done serious damage to the surroundings, Revan chose Tutaminis as the best option, so he did. There is no equivilance between the two doesn't
matter if it failed or not lmao.



They have to be comparable in energy, to break through a force barrier etc. In the end both require raw power. Its like you are suggesting, someone who can resist being Tk'd by Nihilus by minimal effect
, can be domniated by Lightning from a lesser opponent. That notion is plain wrong.


Potency, we have been through this.



Telekenesis, is not a direct as Lightning when it comes to the transfer of energy, Vitiate would of had to master Tk, to the point of his Lightning, aka doing something like what Satele did again Malgus
in the Hope trailer. He has the Raw power with Tk, but not the mastery or the right Area to use TK to the affect of his Lightning.


-Not the same version of lightning.
-Different techinque used, Revans required a metric ton more of power.
-Speculation on Valkorians strength.


Dependant on the amount of power used, when comparing attacks, you cannot use this analogy.



And how fast does one replenish their force power?, and their wasn't much time between attacks.


He still had his Valkorian Body alive, and yes he grew in power. Novel Vitiate already could do a Ziost, SOR/Ziost Valk, needed to Feed on death from War,
then drain people on Ziost to do that feat, as a spirit. Then expended a fair bit of energy on that Death field, but gained more in the process. All which was housed in Valkorian.

Haschwalth
2/2

All True, it comes down to plot.


Would of been an easy cover up tbh. "outlander killed blah blah, took Revenge etc" Pretty much what happened in story.



Revan had a good gauge on his power, Novel Revan is pretty reliable, when you have events like Nihilus draining Katarr it backs it. And yeah the majority of his power comes pre Novel.



Of course, he needed an extremely powerful vessel Nihilus was only an average force user to begin with, meaning he didn't midichlorian count or the ability to hold much energy(force power) in his body, thats
why he lost his Body, unlike Revan/Sidious those with enough Midichlorians/strength to hold energies within their bodies. Vitiate/Nihilus are just cases of their own power far exceeding their physical
limits.



Nathema is not comparable to Ziost/Katarr. Nathema literally stripped the force on the atomic level, over a planet. That requires a far more amount of energy than just, vaporizing/pulversing life/water.
Nihilus drain is a clear indication of Raw force power, as you need to strength to preform such a feat, no matter if it's a different drain.



Wrong, he flat out matched the darkside energies of a botched Ritual that devastated ambria. Infact was superior as he trapped it into a lake.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Devastation_of_Ambria


did it say he achieved his old peak in power, or that he gained enough energy to beable to drain Ziost?


SOR Revan was stated by marr to be capable of wiping out the republic/imperial Combined Militaries by his lonesome, so its not that impressive.


So why as a spirit did Valkorian need to use Force lightning to weaken him before Force blasting him off the edge.Why not just one hit KO him again, oh wait he wasn't strong enough.


Tutamini's from a strong enough user. considering it's fired quickly I doubt,even in while used in his spirit form, as strong as his fully powered charged force lightning storm, as it doesn't require as
much raw power.


Though i'd lean more above than closer.

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