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I thought there should be a thread for this topic. The movies main set-up is that in the past humans gave birth to A.I. The machines began to think for themselves and create new machines. It came to a point where both humans and machines could not live together because they each had a need for domination.

My question to you all is this. How do you feel about A.I. in our world and what do you think the results will be. All ready companies and inventors the world over are making strides in this new field. I think within the next century we will see significant steps in this field.

So what are the opinions of the people out there. For or against. Will it end bad like Matrix and Terminator. Or peaceful like Bicentennial man or A.I.

If the world continues scientifically as it has been, I would say the creation of an A.I. of any type or sophistication is very very probable. 80% probable in my book within the next 20 years. Yes it will be our next step. But then if we engage in global thermonuclear annihilation, then there will be no creation of A.I. for many many many years and human generations.

why would we engage in global thermonuclear annihilation? I dont think there is any current threat of that. there is definately the threat of terrorist getting a hold of a nuke, but not on the scale of nuclear winter.

Really, thought about how AI would work has never moved on from Asimov's time, and his books are still the best discussion of AI that you can get.

You can't KNOWINGLY create it, you mean. And the entire essence of the Chinese Box Demon riposte to the Turin test states that if we ever create true AI we shall have no way of realising we have done so for there is no way for us to distinguish a true AI and a perfect (seeming) simulation of one. Unless we develop some sort of ESP.

good point, i dont think it is possible, but even if it is how do we know if we do?

Very good Mr. Serpent. But there are humans who do comprehend such things and are most likely working on such creations. That is how complex our world has become.

Well Turin, random elements again. North Korea revealed to us last November that it had secretly developed it nuclear program and sent the world in a tailspin! :O Iran is also very close to processing fissionable material for one or two nukes. Israel has hundreds of nukes. China said that it is going to start building up its nuclear arsenal after Bush gave his first State of the Union speech where he called three countries the Axis of Evil. Japan announced around the same time that she was going to begin beefing up her military in response to what was going on in N.K. and China in 2002. Bin Laden and other terror masters are actively seeking nuclear material. With the destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure and the sacking of several nuclear facilities there is now alot of missing nuclear material. There is also nuclear material "missing" in Russia and her former republics. One very very false move by any of the major players and we can easily be in a nuclear exchange. Very very easily.

What is the soul? Something separate from the body and mind? Many believe that the "soul" is the actual consciousness of the person. That piece of very fine energy we call consciousness. The consciousness takes on the imperfections of the physical body, but when the body dies and it is released... the soul is perfect in all aspects of existance. An A.I. that is conscious of itself and sees itself as something other than what it was created for would be considered a "lifeform". It has consciousness. It has a soul.

This whole A.I. question brings up the same question that has been debated over clonig? when is it that a machine or clone becomes a person or entity of it's own and not possesed by what it has been programmed?

I would just like to point out that I believe discussions like this one are the reason these films are so popular. They raise some very deep philosophical issues in a very entertaining manner that many people can easily relate too and comprehend.

For a machine? When it gains self awareness. When it is fully conscious of itself as an entity. Cloning is a biological process and it falls within the meaning of biological living things regardless of the species.

maul's woman, maybe i am an optimist but you mentioned a lot of nuclear threats out there and the are all valid, but i strongly beleive that no one wants to use them aside from N. Korea and any terrorist organization that gets one. everyone else realizes the implications of a nuclear strike against another nuclear power. I beleive that the threat of a nuclear strike is the only objective with most of these countries. It is a scary thought though that one wrong move can be catastrophic, but almost everyone realizes that.

The Problem is the choice...

The question you need to know, before you can even of thinking of programming an A.I. is; Do humans have a choice?
Is that what we do, a choice from our "soul", or is it all based on causalaty...

Thats the point... If you dont comprehend that you will never comprehend how to programme an A.I.

But when we have no choice, what are we then?
Nothing more than a function...
But this would be the only chance tto programme an A.I., cause if we have a choice, there must be more than the physical world that we can understand, there would be a "soul".
And you can not programme a non physical reaction, that you dont understand.

So the humanity first have to find out who we are...
Maybe we are just a kind of a programme...
Cause if there is nothing more than physical reaction, then we have no choice- and if we have no choice, we are not "living" in my definition.

Serpent- YES. Just because there is no perceived difference it does NOT mean there is no difference. It just means that difference cannot be seen. It is VERY simple. Just because you cannot SEE which of two identical twins has cancer and is going to die, does not mean that twin does not have the cancer. Even if there was no way to tell at all, it would still be so.

Also please note I said perfect (SEEMING) simulation. A perfect simuluation is a contradiction in terms because to be actually perfect it would have to BE the real thing. But a thing can seem like something, but not be it.

To us humans, there would be no difference at all- aside from the intellectual realisation that we would not know if these being were alive in the way we are or not.

The objective difference between an AI and a simulation of one is that only the first is truly sentient. But there would be no way to tell that from external observation.

This is actually pretty basic stuff in AI talk.

Turin, you are correct. Most nations understand the unbelievable reprocussion involving a nuclear strike and a nuclear exchange. No one wins a nuclear war. But radicals, terrorists and other twisted and vengeful individuals are not thinking of reprecussions... they want what they want adn that makes them extremely dangerous and lethal. The Arab radicals and terrorists who are extremely angry at the U.S. policies in the region for the past 100 years have in their minds and hearts just cause for trying to destroy the U.S. and the west with weapons of awesome power that they have created. If not total destruction, then extreme trauma would suffice. North Korea threatened to launch its missiles if the U.S. goes in and attacks it. That is why the Administration is treating Jung's Government with velvet gloves. Not so with the Arabs because they don't have devices yet. But that sort of treatment of the Arabs can only inflame them and bolster their resolve to get their hands on lethal weaponry to hit us with. My opinion is that they will do just that. Many parties have agreed to help them as much as possible.

Kapitan, most people don't think about causality when they create something. They just do it and many times throwing caution to the wind. In creating an A.I. they are mainly thinking about if they can make it work, not whether or not they understand their own selves. Can they create a software that is independent thinking and have the capacity of independent learning and creative thought. I personally believe this sort of research is going on all over the world. Eventually, we will succeed in creating some sort of A.I. In the U.S. it will definitely be under "government control" or some kind.

Maul's woman, thanks. i think you are also very correct in the fact that the few individuals that would use a nuke would have no hesitations to use them and what better target then the US. kind of scary.

It is not only scary, it is a awful reality. It will happen in my opinion and the U.S. is driving these people to commit the unspeakable. Europe knows this and they are extremely uneasy about it. The terror groups are working overtime to get what they want. In truth, it is only a matter of when all will happen.

Serpent... all life would have intelligence of some kind. Advanced lifeforms would have greater intelligence regardless of the species and that would include terrestrial AND extraterrestrial life.

MS you make it sound that it is inevitable, though a strong possibility i still think it can be avoided. also do you think that it is the US's fault? you just kind sound like you feel like it is. the bad part is, though we have made mistakes in the past, we are trying to not only stabalize that region, but improve the lives of the people there. but they cant see that and are blinded by hate.

Serpent, intelligence is not only the awareness of oneself, but it is also the ability to synthesis information coming at you from the outside world and you using it to your advantage by CHANGING the circumstances and the outcome to your advantage.

Turin, yes all of this can be avoided, but there are those working just as hard to make nuclear strike and nuclear exchange happen. I had a discussion about this with someone else. That person believed that good people will keep evil things like that from happening. No so. History teaches us different. The problem with good people is that they either don't fight back against impending darkness because they believe a higher power will save them, us, and everybody; or good people fight extremely ineffectively because they don't understand HOW to fight back. Lastly, effective fighting by good people are not backed up by the rest of us and so they are defeated anyway. Much like how what happens in THE MATRIX.

An A.I. war like the one in THE MATRIX would end disasterously for us because "good" people don't know how to fight, and bad people will make bad decisions that will kill many of us than save.

Do I blame the U.S. for its current troubles? Yes. I blame us because we americans saw the evil and darkness sitting on our doorstep beginning with the voting fraud in Florida and did nothing about it. Didn't even bat an eyelash. What occurred in the 3 years after is a tragedy that again we americans did nothing about and bought into the lie allowing our nation to be "trashed" on several levels. We did nothing. We jumped of the precipice and dashed outselves on the jagged rocks below, just like the people did in THE MATRIX.

Bush cannot be both Skulls and Bones. One or the other. I personally don't know if he is in any secret society. He may as well be, by the way he acts. I'm not being hard on this man. I don't think he is intelligent at all. He is loyal to his handlers and he doesn't stray from his purpose or mandate given him by them.

There are 2 presidents who were either a Skull or a Bone. Lincoln was a member of the Bones.

I have English and Scottish ancestry. I also have Amerind ancestry as well.

From:
http://www.bevsbest.com/Authors-Books/Alexandra-Robbins/Secrets-Of-The-Tomb-by-Alexandra-Robbins.htm



I hear that Kerry is also a member of S&B.

voting Fraud in Florida? how so. they counted the votes and thats how it turned out. how would the republican party be able to not count votes, or do whatever you thought they did. i hate when people say that. but MS you are right good struggles to defeat evil because many on the side of good dont or wont fight back claiming the moral high ground and that is what we are going through right now. Someone on the side of good stood up and now many of the people on his side are persecuting him for it. this is going political on us. lets get back to matrix.

Nothing exists except atoms and empty space --- everything else is opinion. Democritus, 400BC...
the consciousness of atoms? the double slit experiment can be read in a few different ways... one is that atoms make decisions, conscience decisions... so if we can harness the power of the atom (not in a nuke kind of way, but in the faster than light communication that appears to transpire between them) perhaps we can create a soul... after all, it was already created once, in life you see now... so why wouldn't we be able to do it again?

i live in florida... too many old people here to vote right. besides the electoral process is the real problem... but that is a discussion for another day...

Democritus was oversimplifying existance. Carl Sagan once said that all living things is the universal mind's way of understanding itself.

The same can be said for the A.I. in Matrix. It is using the humans to understand itself.

Perhaps in real life an A.I. would do somewhat the same thing.

i think anything said about life and awareness is pry oversimpleifyed. the brain alone is still largely a mystery.

True and it will never be fully understood, but that will not stop humanity from creating artificial intelligence.

Oh, and btw- substitue 'gravitons for atoms'? I guess you think you know more than all the experts in this field to think gravitons are the answer. Even a BASIC physics education will show that is not so.

EDITED- on grounds of pointlessness

I suppose if there was anything the Architect was wrong about, it is in that anger is more predictable than denial.

All I can say if that if posters act in a courteous and sensible manner, they will receive such treatment in return. If they act in a discourteous manner and attempt to make argument based on inadequate reading of posts then their being angry at the reprimand they receive for such behaviour is their own problem.

Now, the threads are no place to argue this out so back to the topic please.

you guys sound like your a married couple fighting

For which I apologise...

no problem, i just think it's funny.

Im glad everyone is enjoying this thread. I have just been catching up. It sounds like all of you have had a mouth full to say. But most of it is not even remotely close to what i was asking.

I want to know if you think it is right for us to create A.I. (i dont care if it is possible now.) If we do create it how will we know if it is under us or on par with us. Do we treat it like a race equal to humans. I want to know the large ideas.

So if you could stop arguing like three year olds I would greatly appreciate it. Can we return to a sensible, rational, and logical debate like the true matrix fans we are.

iN MY OPINION WHOS TO SAY THAT A.I ORGAINSM WOULD WANT TO CONQUER AFTER ALL I MEAN IN THE END THEY ARE STILL MACHINES WITHOUT EMOTIONS WHICH ARE THE CAUSE FOR ANGER, GREED WHICH BRING US HUMAN TO WAR, ITS MY BELIEVE THAT A.I WOULD HAVE NO NEED FOR US BUT THEY WOULD LEAVE US ALONE TO OUR OWN DEMISE UNLESS FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS COME WITH THE A.I PACKAGE AND THEN ILL AGREE WITH MOST OF YOU BUT THE WAY I SEE A.I ITS SOMETHING LIKE DATA ON STAR TREK WHILE HE WAS SUPERIOR TO HUMANS IN EVERY WAY HE HAD NO DESIRE TO CONQUER US

SORRY FOR THE CAPS, DIDNT REALISE I HAD THEM ON!

That is a good point. A.I. would want to assimilate as much knowledge as possible to feed its purpose. I would say it would want to keep humans around because each human experinces life in a diffrent way. Could you imagine learning from 6 billion diffrent sources. I say without emotion A.I. would be good.

The AI in the Matrix is far more extensive than mere intelligence persay. It is artificial life. These machines don't merely exhibit intelligence, they also simulate life. They can perceive, discern, comprehend and react, thus, they can learn. But, they also maintain and repair themselves and replicate themselves and even evolve or improve their "species."

AI alone can be programmed in many ways based upon many underlying theories of intelligence. The outcome however can only be as good as the base theory. Garbage in, Garbage out as they say. Programmers are going to need a more advanced understanding of intelligence before they can create artificial intelligence even anywhere approaching what we seen in the Matrix. Targeting a particular task or situation is possible with limited results. But to program a good simulation of intelligence which addresses a broad, changing environment and simulates life is a way off I would guess.

Mac11586:

Sorry about the digression. It's just so tempting to ponder "what if's," scifi and technology I suppose.

But, to answer your question, I think developing AI or any other technolgy is fine if our ethical knowledge and moral courage can keep up with our scientific knowledge to insure it is utilized in ways that are good and just. I suppose we should be a couple steps ahead of any technology we produce or unleash on the world however to insure we can control our creations...

I also think that even if by accident our creations become "intelligent life forms" we should treat them with the same respect that we would any organic life form. Intelligent life is intelligent life and as Kant said, all are due respect simply on that basis alone. In watching the two Animatrix shorts on man's interactions with the machines, I cannot help but thinking man was wrong to alienate them and attempt to destroy them. It sure didn't work out so good.

Honda has created a robot the marks the beginning of AI. It is very insignificant scale compared to the matrix, but the robot can learn just from hearing, feeling and seeing and reprograms itself accourding to its circumstances. It is similar to a dog at this point I suppose. However scientist's have predicted that in 100 years AI will have it's own communities and territories to live in. They also have said that the AI will be programmed to die before ever harming a human. The problem with this is that if AI become smart enough they may be able to program themselves for defense and attack.