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Darth Malgus (False Emperor) and Darth Malak (KotOR) vs. Count Dooku (RotS)

Perfect synergy for duo, 15m apart, takes place on grassy plains.

Duo, lmfao.
Either one can give him a great fight, and at least Malgus would win some rounds.

Duo, easily.

Eh, I'm not sure if Malak could give him a "great fight", but Malgus certainly would.

The combined might of the duo can take it, though it's not far fetched for Dooku to take a round or two.

Dooku one-shots

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Duo, easily.

Dooku stomps

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Duo, lmfao.
Either one can give him a great fight, and at least Malgus would win some rounds.

Malgus solos. Malak, too, if we're going off the Kun quote.

Team

Team annihilates.

Duo beats him down.

You guys should probably factor in their teamwork. Malgus has (from what I've seen) been a fairly poor team player and Malak is outright known to be a backstabbing, team killing f*cktard so.....

With that said, either of them could give him a good (great in Malgus' case) fight solo and together they definitely have this in the bag.

(auto quote)

Dooku isn't taking a single round, in fact, he gets stomped really badly.

Dooku being "stomped" is laughable.
Team takes it in a decent fight.

No, it isn't, lmao. You suggestion otherwise if a utter joke, tho.

Dooku barely beat the duo of Savage Opress and Vetress, he gets wrecked by this team far superior team - sporting one of Palpatine most powerful predecessor, who has unmatched battlefield accomplisments, and a guy, who, on the SF is far more powerful than Exar Kun, and is revered throughout several sources as one of the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, it isn't, lmao. You suggestion otherwise if a utter joke, tho.

Dooku barely beat the duo of Savage Opress and Vetress, he gets wrecked by this team far superior team - sporting one of Palpatine most powerful predecessor, who has unmatched battlefield accomplisments, and a guy, who, on the SF is far more powerful than Exar Kun, and is revered throughout several sources as one of the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Yet that version of Savage was driving back Anakin and Kenobi, a duo which Dooku handled quite well on Oba Diah. Are you saying Savage>Anakin & Kenobi?

And Dooku "barely" beating them is either contradictory or could be taking into account the rage amp that Opress experienced.

Dooku's collective power was noted -- multiple times, I believe -- to be substantially above both of them even combined. Regardless, Dooku's ability to handle a superior duo in the form of Anakin and Obi-Wan and Mace Windu and Obi-Wan without being stomped is enough to suggest he isn't gonna get stomped here.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, it isn't, lmao. You suggestion otherwise if a utter joke, tho.

Dooku barely beat the duo of Savage Opress and Vetress, he gets wrecked by this team far superior team - sporting one of Palpatine most powerful predecessor, who has unmatched battlefield accomplisments, and a guy, who, on the SF is far more powerful than Exar Kun, and is revered throughout several sources as one of the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Yes it is, rofl.
That is a good feat for Savage and Ventress. It doesn't lower Dooku in any way. Tomorrow, if someone gives a good fight to Sidious, then it is the person himself who receives scaling from him. Sidious isn't lowered in any way, so I am calling out on this futile logic.

Lol, if you actually believe that Malak quote, we might as well have Dooku be of a similar calibre to Yoda, and outright stomp the team. As it is, he gets brownie points for contention with Yoda, someone who stomps this team.

Kun's own quotes(multiple ones) contradict the Malak quote.

Dooku is above either of them individually, and by a decent margin. There is no way that they would be able to stomp him together. Even collectively, both would have to be significantly above him for that to happen.

We saw in the TCW fights, where overall, either Anakin or Obi Wan are above Ventress, and by a noticeable amount. Yet, even together, somehow, they aren't able to stomp her. In fact, their performance might be worse off, than when both were separately combating her.

Originally posted by Kurk
Yet that version of Savage was driving back Anakin and Kenobi, a duo which Dooku handled quite well on Oba Diah. Are you saying Savage>Anakin & Kenobi?


Dooku wasn't exactly beating that incarnation of Savage (not that he couldn't one on one). But when Savage went all rage monster, he choked and flung Dooku backwards.

And btw Anakin/Obi-Wan were beating Savage even in that one-off rage induced state.


Originally posted by MythLord
Regardless, Dooku's ability to handle a superior duo in the form of Anakin and Obi-Wan and Mace Windu and Obi-Wan without being stomped is enough to suggest he isn't gonna get stomped here.


This is true though.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Duo, lmfao.
Either one can give him a great fight, and at least Malgus would win some rounds.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku wasn't exactly beating that incarnation of Savage (not that he couldn't one on one). But when Savage went all rage monster, he choked and flung Dooku backwards.

And btw Anakin/Obi-Wan were beating Savage even in that one-off rage induced state.





This is true though. what? How were they beating Savage? As I recall, both of them got flung back into a wall and we're giving a lot of ground even when Savage's size and weapon should have given him problems...

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144

We saw in the TCW fights, where overall, either Anakin or Obi Wan are above Ventress, and by a noticeable amount. Yet, even together, somehow, they aren't able to stomp her. In fact, their performance might be worse off, than when both were separately combating her. That was probably because Anakin and Obi-Wan at that time had quite poor synergy. If you watch the duo's fights against Dooku/Ventress in TCW, you'll see that they mostly attack sequentially, which means that they not only fail to coordinate their strength, but also impede each other. In RotS, they attack pretty much simultaneously until they are forcibly separated.


TCW:

https://youtu.be/qUJ5zAK4EYE?t=1m3s
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=44s


RotS:

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m4s

Is this a joke?

Darth Malgus solo. In-fact, Darth Malak can solo as well.

This fight is a mismatch in the favor of Sith duo.

You believe in the Malak >> Kun quote, DC?

WTF lol Dooku gets raped

Originally posted by Emperordmb
WTF lol Dooku gets raped
Bane would win tho?

Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku one-shots

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Bane would win tho?

I think you know the answer to that. : )

Originally posted by Emperordmb
WTF lol Dooku gets raped Could Bane win this?

Deceived Malgus would take it 10/10. This is spite

Originally posted by deathslash
what? How were they beating Savage? As I recall, both of them got flung back into a wall and we're giving a lot of ground even when Savage's size and weapon should have given him problems...


They chopped off his horn. He didn't land any hits on either of them.


Originally posted by Darth Thor


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxrtPnhNtZE


At 0:10-0:13, right as he engages the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo, Opress has all his horns.

At 0:35, just as his duel with Anakin/Obi-Wan ends, he has a horn missing. That horn is always missing from then on out.


Giving ground doesn't mean squat if the persons giving ground are the ones landing the Lightsaber blows.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Deceived Malgus would take it 10/10.

No.

Originally posted by MythLord
And Dooku "barely" beating them is either contradictory or could be taking into account the rage amp that Opress experienced.

Dooku's collective power was noted -- multiple times, I believe -- to be substantially above both of them even combined. Regardless, Dooku's ability to handle a superior duo in the form of Anakin and Obi-Wan and Mace Windu and Obi-Wan without being stomped is enough to suggest he isn't gonna get stomped here.
When did Dooku handle Kenobi+Mace?

was in a video game, we dont know how but he seemingly survived both of them

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
was in a video game, we dont know how but he seemingly survived both of them
Do we know how close to AOTC this was?

mid tcw iirc, but its been years since the footage was posted here. thor probably remembers

It's here:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/_1ieRQ-4BB4

Given the way Obi-Wan is dressed I'd say first half of clone wars.

Dooku could honestly win via ROTS tactics. Ergo; removing the weaker Force user first (Malak) and then duelling (and out-duelling) Malgus. The latter not putting up nearly as a good a fight as Anakin. In spite of the personal opinion of Cory Herndon, he can do this.

He's not going to discard Malak with the same ease he did Kenobi, though.

Dooku dies, 10/10. Malak isn't a weakling.

Neither is Kenobi. And I'm not seeing anything that'd put Malak above Obi in terms of telekinetic potency.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's here:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/_1ieRQ-4BB4

Given the way Obi-Wan is dressed I'd say first half of clone wars.
Ah, so it's Mace and Obi vs Dooku and a bunch of magnaguards.

Not an actual 1 v 2. Not to mention we have no clue how well Dooku did or how long the fight was. Basically a non showing.

It's cool that Mace vs Dooku actually happened though, pity we didn't get to see what happened.

Originally posted by twotter
Dooku could honestly win via ROTS tactics. Ergo; removing the weaker Force user first (Malak) and then duelling (and out-duelling) Malgus. The latter not putting up nearly as a good a fight as Anakin. In spite of the personal opinion of Cory Herndon, he can do this.
Dooku was only able to use the force against Kenobi after turning is 2 v 1 vs the duo into a 1 v 1 by calling in the super battle droids to occupy Kenobi. Not that the situation you described is implausible, but his fight vs Anakin and Kenobi isn't the best evidence.

The only thing rofl worthy is your, and Dooku supporters arguments, kek.



No.




Except that isn't my logic, lmao.

My logic follows:

> Premise 1: Ventress and Savage are vastly inferior to Malgus and Malak via accolades and feats

> Premise 2: Dooku struggled against Ventress and Savage

> Conclusion: Given Dooku's struggle against a vastly inferior team of Ventress and Opress, he isn't putting up a decent fight against his Malak and Malgus.

Your logic here fails because Opress and Ventress aren't some new characters - they have well-documented feats, accolades, and showings and limitations across multiple media, all of which, are vastly inferior to Malak and Malgus' own in that regard. I'm not docking Dooku because his showing was against some random unknowns - I' knocking him because his showings were against well-established characters who 's overall potency as a duo is emphatically below the Sith here.



Except, there is nothing that explicitly contradicts SF!Malak> Kun, as opposed to Dooku being Yoda caliber, a notion which is crushed when even a vastly amped Dooku lost pretty convincingly to the Grandmaster and guys like Lucas, aka, the word of God, had Dooku more adjacent to Maul and Vader than Yoda and Palpatine.



I've seen nothing that suggests Yoda would stomp this team, tbh. Also, yes he was contended against Yoda in 'sabers, as he could with this team briefly in regards to fencing, but the minute Malak and Malgus start using the Force, either be it stasis, lightning, tk, or whatever, Dooku is going down like a ton of bricks in the sea. Kinda how Yoda would have done had he actually exerted his Force advantage offensively rather than defensively,



This had been argued multiple times over - Kun has nothing that directly contradicts Malak supremacy quote beside laem mental gymnastics and well-wishing.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You believe in the Malak >> Kun quote, DC?

What argument is there to dismiss it?

Uh, aren't quotes disputable?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ah, so it's Mace and Obi vs Dooku and a bunch of magnaguards.

Not an actual 1 v 2. Not to mention we have no clue how well Dooku did or how long the fight was. Basically a non showing.

It's cool that Mace vs Dooku actually happened though, pity we didn't get to see what happened.


Dooku's TK and FL showings are the impressive feats to use from that video.

You're right the 2v1 is nothing to go on. Not that it's an impossible notion for Dooku to the engage the 2 for a short time, given he can engage ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, and given Maul can briefly engage Windu and Secura.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Except that isn't my logic, lmao.

My logic follows:

> Premise 1: Ventress and Savage are vastly inferior to Malgus and Malak via accolades and feats

> Premise 2: Dooku struggled against Ventress and Savage

> Conclusion: Given Dooku's struggle against a vastly inferior team of Ventress and Opress, he isn't putting up a decent fight against his Malak and Malgus.

Your logic here fails because Opress and Ventress aren't some new characters - they have well-documented feats, accolades, and showings and limitations across multiple media, all of which, are vastly inferior to Malak and Malgus' own in that regard. I'm not docking Dooku because his showing was against some random unknowns - I' knocking him because his showings were against well-established characters who 's overall potency as a duo is emphatically below the Sith here.

The amount of exposure Oppress and Ventress have remains irrelevant as an absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence and feats are represented differently by different writers/mediums.

Oppress and Ventress aren't tied to Malgus or Malak in any way and hence are pointless to bring up.

Reverse scaling is not a thing.

It's not reverae scaling, lmao.

That is how the battle forums work - we pit characters against each other, and weigh their feats/hype besides each other and whoever we think is more impressive wins. We might as well not debate across era matches at all, going by your logic.

That's literally thd same thing I'm doing with the Sith duo and Savage and Ventress. If you, or anyone else think Ventress and Savage is more impressive, make a case for them, if not, stop whining about it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Reverse scaling is not a thing.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

I don't have to make a case for them, they're not in this battle.

U r not all that good at this, are you?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They chopped off his horn. He didn't land any hits on either of them.




Giving ground doesn't mean squat if the persons giving ground are the ones landing the Lightsaber blows. landing a hit on an something that can't even be considered an appendage is above getting launched 20 feet in the air and flying into a wall?

Again, his size in conjunction with the weapon that he was using would put him in a disadvantageous position and that fact that they only managed to land one hit is kind of telling.

Originally posted by deathslash
landing a hit on an something that can't even be considered an appendage is above getting launched 20 feet in the air and flying into a wall?

Again, his size in conjunction with the weapon that he was using would put him in a disadvantageous position and that fact that they only managed to land one hit is kind of telling.


His TK was greater but not enough to defeat them. And even those he only landed when they were already at a distance.

They were outduelling him. They landed one hit, but he landed zero hits.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
His TK was greater but not enough to defeat them. And even those he only landed when they were already at a distance.

They were outduelling him. They landed one hit, but he landed zero hits. huh? What tk? It's made very obvious when he charged them at the beginning of the fight that he was going for a physical attack.....

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

My logic follows:

> Premise 1: Ventress and Savage are vastly inferior to Malgus and Malak via accolades and feats

> Premise 2: Dooku struggled against Ventress and Savage

> Conclusion: Given Dooku's struggle against a vastly inferior team of Ventress and Opress, he isn't putting up a decent fight against his Malak and Malgus.

Your logic here fails because Opress and Ventress aren't some new characters - they have well-documented feats, accolades, and showings and limitations across multiple media, all of which, are vastly inferior to Malak and Malgus' own in that regard. I'm not docking Dooku because his showing was against some random unknowns - I' knocking him because his showings were against well-established characters who 's overall potency as a duo is emphatically below the Sith here.
Just wanted to address this real quick.

To say that he struggled against them is an overstatement.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7s3x8ox2ToE
At 1:05, he parries Ventress' strike and then kicks her to the side.
From 1:08-1:10, he sidesteps past two of Savage's strikes and parries another of Ventress'.
From 1:12-1:14, he parries more strikes and kicks her to the ground again.
From 1:16-1:20 he dodges even more of Savage's attacks and it's only after he gets knocked to the ground that he begins to have trouble.

Even then, he dodges more attacks, gets his saber back, blade locks Ventress and then blasts Savage every time he tries to mount an offensive.

If one thing should be apparent, it's that fighters of Ventress' caliber are far beneath Dooku. Hell, he even beat her and two of the best nightsisters while drugged and half asleep.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yyiDDQYPUIs

There's also this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA

He clearly presses and even has the advantage against season six Anakin and Kenobi.

He also used the force to hold off Kenobi and kill master Tiplee IIRC.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's not going to discard Malak with the same ease he did Kenobi, though. Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


Dooku dies, 10/10. Malak isn't a weakling.

It's entirely in the realm of possibility.

Remember, he doesn't need to overpower Malak with the Force directly, rather than exploit a momentary lapse in defence. After that, all that's needed is to throw him with enough velocity to knock him out (or kill him) against something solid. Seen as Malak isn't feat wealthy when handling blunt-force trauma like Kenobi is, this is a likely scenario.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Dooku was only able to use the force against Kenobi after turning is 2 v 1 vs the duo into a 1 v 1 by calling in the super battle droids to occupy Kenobi. Not that the situation you described is implausible, but his fight vs Anakin and Kenobi isn't the best evidence.

Irrelevent. Kenobi already started attacking Dooku at that point. Rewatch the film.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

This had been argued multiple times over - Kun has nothing that directly contradicts Malak supremacy quote beside laem mental gymnastics and well-wishing.


1 - Niether is there anything in Legends explicitly contradicting the hardback cover hype of Darth Plagueis. Yet you aren't sharing the same attitude when dismissing that. Sounds like there are some agenda's to be filled here with a lining of double standards.

2 - Just to entertain Cory Herndon's blog post, the kind of powers Malak exhibited on the Star Forge aren't much better (if at all) then the demonstrative powers of spirit! Kun. And I'm not even including feats with Kyp durron in that equation.

3 - The quote is more an appraisal of the Star Forge than Malak himself. As long said battle isn't fought there, it looses it's relevance. Unless you want to tell me how Sadow is creating supernova's without his Corsair, or how Mother Talzin is stalemating Sidious anywhere outside of Dathormir, regardless of her sub-maul latency

4 - You can compile similar quote's to paint Dooku's powers even more handsomely and come to the conclusion that Tryanus is > Jedi! Dooku ~ TPM Mace > all other Jedi to walk the temple = Revan >> Star Forge!Malak >> Kun and Nadd. Despite being a shit show in consistency and logic, it would pretty much seal Malak's fate against the Count, and I don't see Malgus' hype amounting to much more than an annoyance against him either. This is the case if one's handling of source material equates to : "it was written, therefore it's true" or similar sentiments held highest in biblical times.

Twotter gets it.

Oh and laughably pre-prime Kun > pre-novel! Vitiate is still a thing, even more so in light of Legend's laughable logic.

Lmao.

AP agreeing with you is an auto nail in the coffin.

Was that meant to hurt my feelings?

But no, I'm quite afraid he's right on the ball about statement subjectivity. Just because one blog says one thing, doesn't make it true. Especially in light of actual sources on characters involved.

No, just an astute observation.

I'll get to Ziggy's post in about and hour or two, but what other reason, besides personal bias and lack of exposure from Malak, is there to disregard the quote?

In the case of the quote on hand, we have another quote from a primary source declaring pre-prime Kun > pre-novel Vitiate. Obviously contradicting the blog.

People are claiming that the quote is liable for being published at a time when Vitiate didn't exist. Yet the logic for that comes from a WOTC writer clarifying the content of their blogs and sourcebooks.

Tales of the Jedi is not a sourcebook, not a WOTC product, and the author of the series, Tom Veitch, has clarified that Kun is within the tier of his other major antagonist: DE Palpatine.

Tom's statements are far more relevant in regards to Kun than an irrelevant opinion on lesser sources with no connections to the character.

Therefore, Malak's quote ain't holding its own. Especially once feats and scaling come into play.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Lmao.

AP agreeing with you is an auto nail in the coffin.
AP agreed because I perceive that he is a fan of Kun. It is obvious he would then agree with any argument for him, let alone a logical, well constructed one.

That said, twotter took care of my reply, so there.

And no, there are "multiple" quotes for Kun reaffirming his superiority to Novel Vitiate, not just one like Malak, and as far as using authorial intent is concerned, as AP said, Veitch has proclaimed Kun to be in the league of DE Sidious( which is pure bullshit, but then again, so is Malak>>>Kun, or even Malak>Kun).

Using a singular quote, from a source which has given nonsensical quotes before, against multiple quotes from various sources backed by the same author intent as yours is, makes it rather obvious that you are the one biased here. Not that it wasn't obvious from the onset.

The Malak quote is perfectly valid to use, but Ziggy is correct in that it is more hype for the Star Forge than for Malak. It has no relevance here.

Dooku > Malgus and Malak is fodder. The Count dominates them in sabers and Eviscerates them with the force

It's late, I'm up and bored so yeah.



*Neither*

Mainly because I didn't respect the validity of novel blurbs in general, or really saw any reason to - not because I dismissed a source I didn't agree with.

Given Leeland Chee's statement on novels blurbs, I was absolutely right not to take it as gospel, so I have absolutely no idea where this line of ad hominem is supposed to accomplish. I have no bis against Kun, and I damn sure don't care about a lame-o who wears dick capes like Malak.




Exar has better showings than Malak, but feats aren't everything - especially in the face of out-of-universe sources assuring a stance where feats aren't needed.







Obviously. But I figured if Malak is far more powerful on the nexus, off it, he would at least be in Exar ballpark. Also, the Corsair is less of an amping of the conventional sense and more of a device that requires Force energies to activate its star busting effects.

The Talzin point is fair, tho, even off nexus she is capable of changeling Mace Windu, and sources have proclaimed she can go toe-to-toe with Sidious, with no mention of a Dathormir, IIRC.




The Mace quote is in question, for me at least because:

- Revan was never a Master and the quote explicitly states Jedi Master

- Revan never actually walked the hall of the same Jedi Temple as Revan did

With that said, if you can argue around those two facts in a satisfactory way, I'd have no choice but to concede


If we started picking and choosing which sources we like or didn't like off of re-conceived bias, we might as well shouldn't use source books statements at all, tbh. Statement debating is boring and less challenging surely, but there isn't anything wrong with following canon material.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
That said, twotter took care of my reply, so there.

Nah, I'm currently engaging Ziggy, so I expect a response from you too.

@Deronn, Malgus has regarded Revan to be a Jedi master, pretty sure there are other statements as well.

Yep, n/v you're 100% correct. Just checked the Revan dramatic persona's and Revan was indeed referred to as a master.

I guess I was stuck on the "Prodigal Knight" thing. I'll hold that L, kek.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo It's late, I'm up and bored so yeah.

*Neither*

Mainly because I didn't respect the validity of novel blurbs in general, or really saw any reason to - not because I dismissed a source I didn't agree with. Given Leeland Chee's statement on novels blurbs, I was absolutely right not to take it as gospel.

I see.

So the validity of a hardback summary marketing a rather quintessential book in EU literature, revered by the publishing behemoths as the best Star Wars publication to date, is somehow less valid than an internet article hyping Darth Malak..? What is the logic here? That Novel blurbs are susceptible to advertisement hyperbole for selling things..? Well... why do you think Wizards of the Coast are allowed to publish Star Wars material in the first instance? Could it be to sell toys and games maybe...? That's just the problem. Every token reason used to dismiss Plaguies' hype can delineated in dismissing this blog too. All I ask is for your standards to remain the same for both.

Lastly, Leland Chee is absolutely right. He claimed that blurbs are licence to subjectivity. But do you really think his opinion will be any different for this little marketing souvenir? Chee is a smart man, based on interviews and AMA's featuring him, I can guarantee you his stance will be the same for both sources. Go ask him.



No no no. I'm talking about the current crusade against the fawning scores of PT fans in general (which can be admirable). The kind of agenda that might lead one to accept an out of universe quote for Malak as decisive evidence to rest a premise on, while rejecting similar quotes for others (i.e; Plagueis). On a side note, the difference here is that Plagueis actually does champion a few showings that might make him more powerful than any Sith before him. The ability to turn Naboo into an Ice world long before his prime is one, and of course, the unbalancing of the Force. While Malak is doing.. precisely what to show powers far greater than Kun or Nadd on the Star Forge? Killing a nameless Jedi with lightning, and choking another two?



I wonder why you think an out-of-universe quote is somehow more binding than events within the source material itself. Generally speaking, feats are defined as things that actually happened in the lore. The vaunted Malak quote on the other hand, is nothing more than an interpretation of those happenings. IE a WOTC blogger looking, perhaps not diligently, at the source material and concluding that Malak beats Kun for some reason. Now, you might have a solid case if the statement was a result of omniscient narration or a character who met both Sith Lords and held Malak in higher regard. But neither of these apply to the quote above, and as we see with the Plagueis quote, not everything written in canon has to be a fact.



Until the star forge amp can be realistically defined, Malak's personal standing next to Kun is mere speculation. It might be reasonable if we didn't have numerous examples of Force users acting well beyond their pay grade within Force amplifying bodies, like the ones listed here, and of course, Kun's own feats and hype destroy the notion of personal parity.



- Revan was never a Master and the quote explicitly states Jedi Master

That would be the L.



If we started picking and choosing which sources we like or didn't like off of re-conceived bias, we might as well shouldn't use source books statements at all, tbh.Statement debating is boring and less challenging surely, but there isn't anything wrong with following canon material.


Will need clarification on the temple part. Although I don't see why he didn't walk them. And of course, you conceded the first fact, which would have been a technical equitle based on the wording of the quote. As it stands, it would seem that Revan is one of the masters who walked the temple too. So the 'scaling' here regarding Dooku's placement and Malak, however asinine, should be accepted. That is if one's handling of continuity is opening a source, reading a passage, quoting the passage and claiming "That's it, battle has been decided" as if said said quote was a god given fact. But i do seriously think you're more intelligent than that, and would prefer other methodology when arguing.

Ziggy, what's your metric for accepting and/or dismissing certain quotes? I don't see anything contradicting the line of scaling you presented for Dooku, yet you think it's asinine.

Originally posted by Azronger
Ziggy, what's your metric for accepting and/or dismissing certain quotes?

A sort of death of the author style embracement of the primary source material above all else, with perhaps Lucas' statements as the sole exception - Star Wars was once his intellectual property and originated from his mind. However, if Leeland Chee regards blurbs - which are still canonical (in legends) - as subjective interpretations of a story or simply marketing hype, then there's sparse reason to treat other out-of-universe quotes differently. So for the quotes themselves, if they're adding something to the continuity, ie; the specifications of Exar Kun's lightsaber, they can be treated as fact. While If a quote is merely commenting on existing material, then it has license to be subjective, as it's the opinion of whoever made the statement at that time - there was never council of mediators within LFL creating power charts or hierarchies. I'm aware that many individuals have decided on quote compilations as their debating bread and butter, and would hound dissenting methodology as blasphemous heresy. So I hope they take pittance when I tell them they're not beholden to different ways of thinking, rather that I'm merely expressing how I think continuity should be handled and to let them know that the idea of quote subjectivity is becoming more popular.



Dude. Exar Kun and Darth Tryanus go to separate planets. One stuns a stadium of tens of thousands of people, including an unknown amount of Jedi(possibly?) keeps them there while fighting the best duelist among the Jedi at the time and wins. The other gets cornered and captured by 30 pirates.

Originally posted by twotter
A sort of death of the author style embracement of the primary source material above all else, with perhaps Lucas' statements as the sole exception - Star Wars was once his intellectual property and originated from his mind. However, if Leeland Chee regards blurbs - which are still canonical (in legends) - as subjective interpretations of a story or simply marketing hype, then there's sparse reason to treat other out-of-universe quotes differently. So for the quotes themselves, if they're adding something to the continuity, ie; the specifications of Exar Kun's lightsaber, they can be treated as fact. While If a quote is merely commenting on existing material, then it has license to be subjective, as it's the opinion of whoever made the statement at that time - there was never council of mediators within LFL creating power charts or hierarchies. I'm aware that many individuals have decided on quote compilations as their debating bread and butter, and would hound dissenting methodology as blasphemous heresy. So I hope they take pittance when I tell them they're not beholden to different ways of thinking, rather that I'm merely expressing how I think continuity should be handled and to let them know that the idea of quote subjectivity is becoming more popular.

Except that it's more than just the personal opinion of someone if it's officially accepted into continuity - there's a difference between statements in canonical sourcebooks and Karpyshyn's personal emails. But I'd like an example of a quote that is "merely commenting on existing material." What exactly do you mean by that? A simple repetition of events, or a statement about someone's power level?



Well, if you put it that way, then sure. But then one could make all sorts of arguments about power differences between mediums and the general inconsistencies in feats. TCW is a show where Force users kinda suck and get seriously challenged by non-Force sensitives. TotJ is a comic book written by the same guy who wrote Dark Empire where Palpatine displays and is credited with Force abilities on a planetary scale, and the creator of both believes Exar Kun to be on the same level, so grandiose displays of power are the norm.

Dooku in TCW would lose to 30 pirates, but in Legends at his best he is going up against the two most powerful Jedi in history, Yoda and Anakin, and holding his own. The same Yoda and Anakin who can wipe away armies with a gesture. How could someone who would lose to 30 pirates not get insta-stomped against literal army busters in a contest of raw Force power? The answer is the difference between mediums.

In Legends, Dooku has displayed the ability to fry multiple people with Lightning at once from multiple different directions at once, deflected his own Lightning, telekinetically grip several large ships and hurl them about from a remote location, and create lightsaber-resistant full body energy fields also from a remote location, all casually. Someone like that would annihilate 30 pirates, lightsaber or not.

In TCW, his Force pushes can at best knock down a group of Pykes to the ground, and the combined might of Anakin and Obi-Wan can at best replicate the showing. The power difference between TCW and classic EU is massive.

If you want to look at Disney Dooku at his lowest, then sure, Kun stomps no contest. Classic EU Dooku is another story entirely, and I don't see any reason to throw those accolades away, given he has many others that put him very high up there, and also his feats are way better. He is consistently portrayed as a Force user of the highest echelons that can give the likes of Yoda pause in a Force battle.

Originally posted by twotter



Dude. Exar Kun and Darth Tryanus go to separate planets. One stuns a stadium of tens of thousands of people, including an unknown amount of Jedi(possibly?) keeps them there while fighting the best duelist among the Jedi at the time and wins. The other gets cornered and captured by 30 pirates.
When one of these pirates can stalemate and land blows on Anakin Skywalker...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x30uuLdR6Y
Not such a bad showing

Anakin struggling to subdue a senator doesn't do much for that line of thinking.

Originally posted by Azronger
Except that it's more than just the personal opinion of someone if it's officially accepted into continuity

there's a difference between statements in canonical sourcebooks and Karpyshyn's personal emails

From it's conception, it is literally a writer compiling his research, which is either extensive or wanting, and making an analysis forthwith. That is the process for the majority of outsourced accolades. This describes how we can sift through 1000 publications before finding anecdotes lamenting Malak's force power against the ancients. Once published, it's up to the reader to decide how much credence paid for any given 'canonical' quote. And as we see with the Darth Plagueis blurb, just because something is written in canon, does not mean it's a fact. Because rather than being part of the 'continuity' itself, it's an interpretation of the continuity, and henceforth, has "license to be subjective".



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FYI Az... If I can personally view the action on my Attack of the Clones DVD, I don't need three different fact-file descriptions explaining Dooku vs Yoda. If they're just describing the action from a POV, rather than providing the thoughts of characters on display, then I can make a decent enough analysis myself - or at the very least - choose a quote that describes the events best. Which is why a titanic struggle of powers with neither besting the other is better substituted with the events on-screen accurately described in a different way by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopaedia - Dooku attempting to subdue Yoda with the Force and failing.



Accpeted





So let me ask you Az, are Exar Kun's grandiose displays of power a result of an inconsistent medium (where Force users are generally not busting armies and are regularly challenged by solderin) or are they a result of the creator thinking him comparable to the toppest tier of sith and Dooku's certain superior..? You kind of answered the question yourself. Are you also conceding DE Palatine's planetary exposition as something inconsistently high-end..? in spite of claiming him and those attached to him having powers to threaten the entire Galaxy? You don't have to answer that rhetorical dig at you, because we both know the answer.



Lets make it simple then. The feat I mentioned above for Kun has Dooku severely outclassed in all mediums. The fact that you can't scrounge a showing For Dooku of comparable nature, despite his coverage being 100 times as many sources, is telling. The ability to throw objects in Yoda's direction and have precisely nothing happen to the little fella doesn't count either. The reverse scale that attributes Anakin and Yoda's 'army busting' feats also amounts to little as well. Dooku's respective relationships to them both, is as an inferior. Inferior to Anakin to the point where the latter can simply decide to win a duel when unrestrained. And inferior to Yoda by the Lucas/Gillard tier system - a richter scale seismometer difference - which means he barley lasts 40 seconds agasint him in a duel and the gap between their powers can't be bridged with a planetary Nexus either. The best case you can make is that Anakin has some feat in the Clone Wars micro-series to benefit Dooku. This feat of course, would have to beat Kun's stasis-field over a - rather conservative estimate - of 50,000 people in the stadium (based on dimension scaling it's more likely 100,000 + click me and cick me ). The contemptuous ease of the feat and the fact he can have a full fledged duel while maintaining it, as part of the equation too.



Confirmed. Dooku's best showings on Korirban are maybe better than Spirit Kun's (Kyp excluded) but probably not. Outside of Korriaban however, none of this necisarily means he can't be captured by 30 pirates surrounding him. It just means he might not be able to use his powers quick enough to subvert their weaponry and omnidirectional position without getting shot. This isn't actually too far off from a lot of sources in legends, so no need to be concerned. It simply means Exar's powers are more efficient on top their grander scope.



Desperately trying to cast TCW/Dark Disciple Dooku as an unusable entity, is doing what for your case exactly? And just throwing equivocating words like classic and EU isn't a nuanced enough plea to exclude the most pivotal portrayal of Dooku (outside of the movies) as an inconsequential blight on the character. For starters TCW is part of the EU. Before the split, it was considered "T-canon", so higher than C canon. Lucas himself commented on how he wanted a the action to be far more toned-down than the micro series from 2003. Because he didn't like the idea of Force users destroying entire droid battalions when so many of them struggled on Geonosis. And really, more sources from the EU are comparable to TCW than Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. Comparing their best feats respectively, Tyranus might as well be losing to 30 pirates when it comes to Kun, and he is.



He's consistently described and portrayed as Force user of the second highest echelon. By all accounts. Someone who can be reasonably challenged by two dark-side adepts like Ventress and Savage. A false analysis of Yoda vs Dooku and a connect-the-dots quote chain does not change that.

ngl, that was excellent

Solid post, I'll have a response cooked up soon.

Probably team

Either of them could win alone. Een at the wankiest degree you could hold Dooku, they at the very least give him an extremely close fight in single engagements. They frankly stomp him in a 2 vs 1.

Just curious, when Both Maul and Dooku, supported Talzin/Sidious, in their struggle, they still stalemated.

Wouldn't this indicate Dooku has parity to Maul in TCW.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Just curious, when Both Maul and Dooku, supported Talzin/Sidious, in their struggle, they still stalemated.

Wouldn't this indicate Dooku has parity to Maul in TCW.
Nope, coz Dooku was significantly weakened

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nope, coz Dooku was significantly weakened

Been awhile since I saw it, how was he exactly?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Been awhile since I saw it, how was he exactly?

Talzin possessed and severely drained Dooku in order to restore herself. Then Sids blasted Dooku (further injuring him) to get Talzin out.

Also it was a stalemate until Dooku and Maul intervened. Guess what happened?

Maul and Talzin started to be pushed back.

So really the only thing to be gleaned from this is that a severely drained Dooku is >Maul

Also I'm still kinda pissed Maul didn't get that badass nightsister saberstaff from the cover

Reading over it, I didn't see them being pushed back...

Talzin went from shoving Lightning at Sidious' face to barely being able to deflect Dooku's and Sidious' lightning. A drained Dooku comes out looking better than Maul, honestly.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
Talzin possessed and severely drained Dooku in order to restore herself. Then Sids blasted Dooku (further injuring him) to get Talzin out.

Also it was a stalemate until Dooku and Maul intervened. Guess what happened?

Maul and Talzin started to be pushed back.

So really the only thing to be gleaned from this is that a severely drained Dooku is >Maul

Also I'm still kinda pissed Maul didn't get that badass nightsister saberstaff from the cover
When did Maul intervene?
I recall Talzin refusing Maul's strength.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
When did Maul intervene?
I recall Talzin refusing Maul's strength.

He put his hand on Talzins back, probably transferred his power like that.

It seems when Dooku went in for the attack, talzin switched to a force barrier.
And Maul wasn't consistent in transferring his power to her
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Maul-Son-of-Dathomir/Issue-4?id=14666#19

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Reading over it, I didn't see them being pushed back...


Yep, that never happens until Maul was pushed away by Talzin.

Either way Grievous would have turned the fight one sided.



Originally posted by Haschwalth
It seems when Dooku went in for the attack, talzin switched to a force barrier.
And Maul wasn't consistent in transferring his power to her
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Maul-Son-of-Dathomir/Issue-4?id=14666#19


Yep.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yep, that never happens until Maul was pushed away by Talzin.

Either way Grievous would have turned the fight one sided.

Of course, its why she made him flee.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365


Also I'm still kinda pissed Maul didn't get that badass nightsister saberstaff from the cover


Yeah that was a dick move by the marketing team.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
He put his hand on Talzins back, probably transferred his power like that.
Yea, I'm pretty sure that was just a gesture to reinforce he wants to help her.

Talzin refuses said offer by shoving him towards the ship.

Anyway, as Greyset has noted, Dooku was weakened and even if we assume that Maul gave Talzin his strength, we end up with Talzin being forced to use a force shield and no longer being able to attack.

There's absolutely no favorable comparison to Dooku for Maul to draw from this.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, I'm pretty sure that was just a gesture to reinforce he wants to help her.

Talzin refuses said offer by shoving him towards the ship.

Anyway, as Greyset has noted, Dooku was weakened and even if we assume that Maul gave Talzin his strength, we end up with Talzin being forced to use a force shield and no longer being able to attack.

There's absolutely no favorable comparison to Dooku for Maul to draw from this.

She shoved him to the ship after a struggle between the 4. She only rejected, him when Grievous was closing in. There was no indication she refused before then.

Nah, resorting to the force barrier just indicates, her lightning can not arc towards, Dooku's and with Sidious's at the same time, and probably the fact Maul was right behind her, which would of left him vulnerable.

And yeah, if we were to indicate, between the two, Mauls lack of a constant stream of energy to Talzin, with out them being pushed back indicates he is above the weakend Dooku.

@ Azronger



If Chee thinks Blurbs are subjective then there's likely a reason why. A blurb - as defined by all the dictionaries in the world - is a short description of a book, film or other product written for promotional purposes. In other words, an interpretation of the source material that can be used to sell stuff. A description that can be applied to 99% of out-of-universe accolades found within comics, blogs, toys, sourcebooks and certainly can be applied to the latest Malak hype from Wizards of the Coast... a company that promotes and sells toys. Now based this thread, your current handling of the source material seems to be this:

- Blurb hyping Plagueis: "Can be subjective"

- Blog hyping Malak: "Indisputable fact of canon"

The set of principles here don't really add up, do they? Most importantly, what Leeland does with this statement is contradict the notion that if something is written in canon, it must be a fact. A mantra held by everyone whom clung to a blurb as proof of Plagueis' direct superiority to all who came before him. And a mantra held by those who think Darth Tryanus > TPM Mace > All Jedi to walk the temple > Revan >> SF Malak >> Kun is some sort of acceptable hierarchy of power, which is basically you and no one else at this point.



If a quote is describing something we can see in the movies, unless it's revealing hidden elements such as character thoughts or off-screen antics, it's merely an analysis of the events from a writer's point of view, which does indeed make it subjective. Such quotes are not actively adding to the continuity, rather that they're interpreting it, and can certainly be cast aside if they're copiously detailed. Thus far, there hasn't been a sourcebook published that explains Sidious vs Yoda to the degree of comprehension that Stealth-Moose has, which means his analysis is better than anything you can find with an official license. You're argument is that because a statement is made with said license, it must be an indisputable fact. As we've established before, that isn't necessarily the case.




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Right. The feat in question bound the will of every person in a stadium. The stadium itself scaling larger than those that seat over 100,000 people. Now... we can disect what's actually happening here in perhaps two different ways. The first is that Kun is using a power to literally hold everyone in place. Like a set of restraints that allows no muscle movement whatsoever, keeping their entire body mass completely still. If this is the case it would certainly count as quantity, i.e. a massive feat. The idea here is that said power concentrated onto one target would be especially devastating. The fact that he could do something on said scale with no effort whatsoever, and maintain said spell while having a full fledged Force-imbued duel with Bass afterwards, put's him closer to micro-series Yoda than any incarnation of Dooku.

The second possibility is that Kun is using the force to paralyse everyone in sight by individually taking control of their central nervous systems; the tiny nerves within a persons spinal chord and brain that control actions. Which would be an intricate level of force application spread out across more than 100,000 people. Given that most sith and jedi find it hard to control a single target in such a manner, that would certainly count as quantity and quality. So next time you substitute arguments for idioms, you could at least use relevant ones.



No it doesn't.



You'll have to point out the source-material demonstrating Yoda attempting to grapple Dooku, with the latter resisting successfully. You can either find it in the films depicting the action literally, or the novel giving personal introspection from either characters point of view. Erroneous tertiary sources aren't going to cut it here, as they are subjective in nature. IE; there was no titanic struggle of Force powers between Dooku and Yoda, but rather that he deflected everything The Count threw at him, and bested him after 40 seconds of duelling. Not that this matters anyway - Force grappling against other Force users, is usually characterised by a lapse of defence on the victims part. For example Kirak stonewalling Vader's Force choke face to face, yet succumbing another time when distracted.



Accepted



Dooku was getting plastered by a restrained pre-darkside Anakin in ROTS. This doesn't speak any volume to Dooku's power level other than his inferiority. By Gillard's estimation (again with Lucas' supervision), he's an entire tier below. A Richter Scale measurements difference. Literally speaking that would mean Yoda, Anakin and Sidious at their best, are some order of magnitude more powerful than Dooku. While this may be in exaggeration, it's elucidates his engagements with Ventress, Savage, Kenobi and Quinlan Vos.



In other words, he's both outclassed in magnitude and application by Kun, yet he still is several power ups above by being inferior to both Anakin and Yoda.

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Using the Holocron system of canon (legends) is usually forum etiquette, as debating old material is still on the cards. Of course, it suits you to dismiss it now, and is interesting that you choose to set the standards mid-way through the debate, after most of the main arguments have been made. Do I sense a lack of confidence here?



The current paradigm, which you have chosen as the ultimate standard for our debate, classes TCW as canon - along with the movies - and the micro-series as Legends. Sorry to say that Count Dooku the pirate captive has greater standing in the mythos than microseries Dooku, who didn't really exhibit anything special anyway.



Right. So your approach to establish Dooku's actual power level, is to sift through material and disavow content that doesn't do him justice. Hand-waving entire an TV series while your at it. Yet when Wizard of the Coast's Cory Herndon says that Malak is more powerful than Kun, it's a fact, with no wiggle room of dispute.



Well done. Microseries-Mace is inconsistent with every other portrayal of the character. Including most classic EU material, where he isn't busting armies. Not that it matters, as there is no point during that sketch where Mace uses his powers on 100,000 targets in one go.



As I said before Az, Exar has Dooku outclassed in all mediums. So I'm not really bothered by whatever cherry picking standard we (you) are using. For the sake of argument, lets say that TCW is low end, but rather than disregarding it entirely, we can take an average of all mediums to figure out where Dooku stands... and find out he is barely scraping spirit Kun.



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That's nice. So you have chosen: it was written, therefore it's true. Hopefully you'll come to accept that not everyone will adhere to your own handling of continuity, nor do they have any reason to. And that more it more importably, it is your own take on canon, and one that isn't backed up by an authoritative figure with the same set of values. In fact almost every person responsible for handling material that now known as Legends, disagrees with this sentiment. The reason : they're intelligent.